Do they know they lie?

[FigureIt]

My uBPDbf was dressed one way fri. am and when I saw him at lunch he had something different on. I just inquired casually if he changed (no big deal) he said "no", but I know he did.  So I said this morning "Why did you say you didn't change at lunch when you did?" He still claimed he didn't. 

I know he changed... . is he just trying to make me feel crazy or do they really forget or not know?

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[elemental]

Why did you ask him if he changed, when you already know the answer?

And of course he knows he is lying.

Why he is, I cannot say. I think a lot of times, they just lie because they are suspicious about other people's motivations, even if said motivations are harmless.

[unicorn2014]

My uBPDbf was dressed one way fri. am and when I saw him at lunch he had something different on. I just inquired casually if he changed (no big deal) he said "no", but I know he did.  So I said this morning "Why did you say you didn't change at lunch when you did?" He still claimed he didn't. 

I know he changed... . is he just trying to make me feel crazy or do they really forget or not know?

How long have you been with him and why do you still stay with him?

[letmeout]

Actually, my exBPDh believed his own lies. How that is possible I have no idea, but once he told a lie (even when shown the evidence of his lie) he stuck by it.

Or maybe they just refuse to believe that you don't believe them? LOL

[unicorn2014]

Actually, my exBPDh believed his own lies. How that is possible I have no idea, but once he told a lie (even when shown the evidence of his lie) he stuck by it.

Or maybe they just refuse to believe that you don't believe them? LOL

I'm preparing to confront my BPD fiancé about some possible lies so I hope it goes well.

[hergestridge]

I don't know about "they", but to my BPDw truth is nowhere as important as it is for me. And stuff like in your example: small things that just confuse you.

As an example:

On friday night we made plans what we would do on saturday. Late friday night my wife discovered a few things that made her change her mind and her plans for saturday, but she forgot to tell me.

Saturday morning we start to discuss what to do during the day and she discovers that I'm not in on her plans (she haven't told me about them!). BUT instead of doing the obvious and saying "Sorry, I changed my mind yesterday and forgot to tell you!" she "But I told you yesterday and you agreed!", which is a lie. But it kind of keeps her from losing face... . in her world.

I guess a board advisor here at bpdfamily.com or some other wise person would tell me to chose my battles and ask me "Is it really important?". But guess what? I'm a too big fan of the truth for that so I tell my wife;

"Sorry, you didn't tell me about those things yesterday!"

Heated discussion ensues, and guess what my wife tells me after a while?

"Is it really important?"  

So first she lied about having told me something.

Then she lied about me having listened and agreed.

Then she defended herself with tooth and claw.

Then she said it wasn't important, which in itself must be a lie at this point considering the above.

So yes, she knows she lies.

[dontknow2]

When I was trying to explain to my dxBPDh how lying can impact our relationship and trust (and yes, he had no conscious understanding of this), he explained to me how lying or 'hiding or manipulating the truth' has only benefited his life. He told me about when he was a teenager and had problems with the law. At first when he got caught, he would be honest with police. After a few experiences, he found to be punished more severely when being honest than if he hid the truth or lied.  So, he dropped honesty as being important and continued to find lying good for survival. Kind of sad. Part of this is reflective of a poor system; but that is another topic.

Unfortunately, my ex sees me more as authority than a loving partner in addition to lying being his default when he sees the need. So, I continue to get the lies. That said, the lack of trust is eroding my love for him at a quicker clip lately than in the past. It is just wearing me down. :'(

hergestridge, Thanks for a hearty laugh. Your post tickled me. 

[elemental]

One time my boyfriend lied to me about the existence of something that I was literally LOOKING at that was about 2 feet from my face.

%#() dam gaslighting and total bullcrap.  It's been nearly 2 years and just thinking about it makes me 

Need more ZEN *holds out empty cup*

[an0ught]

Hi Ycul,

My uBPDbf was dressed one way fri. am and when I saw him at lunch he had something different on. I just inquired casually if he changed (no big deal) he said "no", but I know he did.  So I said this morning "Why did you say you didn't change at lunch when you did?" He still claimed he didn't. 

I know he changed... . is he just trying to make me feel crazy or do they really forget or not know?

generally facts matter a lot less to pwBPD - their thinking is dominated by not so well regulated emotions driving fight/flight reactions. One reason validation is so important for us (besides it helps to protect us from believing the projections) is that it makes us focusing on the emotional state of our partner more. The more we understand where they are emotionally the easier it is to understand how to interpret what is being said.

So he is being defensive

- may feel guilty.

   - spilled something on to the clothing

   - wanted to impress a girl

   - wanted to impress boss

 - was startled by the question

 - was thinking in a twisted manner and was later too ashamed to admit it

 - fear of your judgement

 ... .

He may instinctively lie or he may not even know which may be the case if he is dealing with frequent disassociations.

One of the problems with BPD is that the array of symptoms we are seeing, dealing and often suffering under is wide, confusing, situation depending and shifting over time. Dealing with the symptoms is a loosing battle. In general we are best served by focusing on emotional stability of us and validation of them and avoiding extreme dysfunctional behavior through boundaries. In some cases symptoms are so frequent or so disturbing to us that we need to dig a little deeper and understand the dynamic behind a symptom. By focusing on that symptom specific dynamic we may well win the battle. The war will shift elsewhere and is centered around emotional stability.

To control lying or even discuss lying much may not be so productive - you are lying is likely to be triggering. We can't command anyone to behave trustworthy and less so a person that is struggling to control themselves. It may well be best dealt with with boundaries - how much trust do you extend to your partner. Will you act on information of the partner alone on smaller things? On significant matters? How do you ensure you are feeling sufficiently safe in light of having to deal with a lot of distorted information?

[123Phoebe]

My uBPDbf was dressed one way fri. am and when I saw him at lunch he had something different on. I just inquired casually if he changed (no big deal) he said "no", but I know he did.  So I said this morning "Why did you say you didn't change at lunch when you did?" He still claimed he didn't. 

I know he changed... . is he just trying to make me feel crazy or do they really forget or not know?

This might sound a little out there, but your boyfriend could have been thinking this same thing when you casually inquired if he changed at lunch.  Just switch the wording around a little:

"She knows I changed... . is she just trying to make me feel crazy or did she really forget or not know what I was wearing this morning?"

I'm wondering the same thing as elemental; why did you ask him if he changed, when you already knew the answer?

[Lilibeth]

Ycul, i would agree with Zencat - why did you ask him when you knew. This is because they process things differently in their mind. I would go with anOught when he says, 'We are best served by focusing on emotional stability of us and validation of them and avoiding extreme dysfunctional behavior through boundaries.' We need to concentrate on being emotionally stable - something which is already difficult for us with our BPDs flipping so frequently. The validation would then become the next step and easier to do... . and of course the boundaries. Much as it is at the tip of our tongues, the best would be not to bring up something we already know... . and which he is likely to lie about.

[MissyM]

I think I look at this from a codependency issue.  Asking a BPD to define reality for us is unhealthy.  Making a statement, "Oh, I noticed you changed your clothes." is an observation.  Asking them if they changed their clothes, when you know that they did, is just setting up an unhealthy dynamic.  I have been advised not to ask my dBPDh questions like that.  Making an observation myself, puts me back into myself and not into him.

[Love Is Not Enough]

Actually, my exBPDh believed his own lies. How that is possible I have no idea, but once he told a lie (even when shown the evidence of his lie) he stuck by it.

Or maybe they just refuse to believe that you don't believe them? LOL

I'm preparing to confront my BPD fiancé about some possible lies so I hope it goes well.

Don't bother. You are only setting yourself up for disappointment and to make yourself more crazy analyzing all of the bs that will come out of your fiancé's mouth. You will NEVER get the truth about anything from them. Until you have CONCRETE evidence of his ACTIONS. This all sums up nicely with a quote from Changingman.

Everything is a lie,

This is now the foundation of my philosophy unfortunately. It helps me cope and protects me from my gf's bs. I just calmly think of this when she is talking to me and I do not put too much into what she says. It soothes me in some strange way because I do not get overly excited or upset about anything she says. I just take it with a grain of salt and just watch what she does. I even have this on a list of quotes and mantras on my phone. She was using my phone once and I am pretty sure she saw it , but she has never asked me about it. I guess it is not a very positive way to look at things, but it works for me at the moment. I hope that it will not always be this way.

[hergestridge]

Letting everything pass is not working either. If you have set bounadries against cheating (just an example), then you can't let lies about cheating just pass.

And some lies have to be confronted to stop something from snowballing. It's difficult to explain, but sometimes if you let something pass you "OK" in the world of the BPD and all of sudden you have agreed to a whole bunch of things. Those who have been there know what I'm talking about. "I told you and you didn't seem to mind... . "I told you all about it and you didn't say anything!".

[Stalwart]

I've been there for everyone of those comments with my wife trying to justify an action she's taken hergestridge so I can absolutely understand what you're saying.

I wish I actually had an answer for you on this but I don't. It baffles me that a person can live their lives either intentionally lying continuously or be so disillusioned that they don't know they are. I tend to believe my wife knows every lie she's told and every truth she's twisted or omitted from a conversation (which is as much a lie as not to me.)

This is something that she's apparently used her entire life to get validation or avoid persecution or judgement that is made harshly against her. I have to wonder if it isn't actually habitual. Even when there is absolutely no need or reason to lie or hide a truth, she still will. It really is frustrating and depending if you've dealt with infidelity in the past or hidding addictive and destructive behaviour it really is important to 'keep on top' of the truths, filter out the lies and remain vigilante. There really aren't choices to protect yourself, and in some respects protect her from herself.

After the better part of year in therapy after her diagnosis I have yet to hear that this issue has been discussed with her therapist, or even mentioned. It's my intention to try and have her address this issue with her therapist by using small insignificant examples to try and bring it to the forefront. She says her goal is to create a persona of self-worth and integrity about herself that she can be proud of, she believes that she wants to model herself after my persona and beliefs in integrity. I'm hoping there is a chance of this.

In the meantime it really would be helpful to hear any stories of people that have lived through this issue and come out in a positive manner and how that came about.

[Perez]

Thank you for this discussion, it is very timely for me.  My uBPDw has generally not lied in our marriage.  Not the same thing as truthful because she says many incorrect things when deflecting blame, projecting, etc. but generally speaking I don't think she coldly lies often.

I have obtained a couple of pieces of evidence that my wife is calling another man and hiding it from me and the rest of our family.  I confronted her with the information yesterday in a non-confrontational way(at least as non-confrontational as I could muster)

She lied to my face and flatly denied anything.  I went back at her a couple of more times and she continued to flatly deny then immediately began gas-lighting and blame shifting.  I had never seen her tell such a brutal lie before.  It has shattered my trust in her more than her rages ever have.

 

[Lilibeth]

Hi Perez. I really feel for you. You are sure to find help here in dealing with this. Hang in there, you will be able to handle this.

[unicorn2014]

This is now the foundation of my philosophy unfortunately. It helps me cope and protects me from my gf's bs. I just calmly think of this when she is talking to me and I do not put too much into what she says. It soothes me in some strange way because I do not get overly excited or upset about anything she says. I just take it with a grain of salt and just watch what she does. I even have this on a list of quotes and mantras on my phone. She was using my phone once and I am pretty sure she saw it , but she has never asked me about it. I guess it is not a very positive way to look at things, but it works for me at the moment. I hope that it will not always be this way.

May I ask why you would want a girlfriend like that?

[letmeout]

Even when there is absolutely no need or reason to lie or hide a truth, she still will. 

My ex would do the same thing, he couldn't tell the truth no matter how small. I asked his parents about it, and his mom said that he was born with a lie in his mouth. I think when they are born with that issue, nothing can change it.

[FigureIt]

I agree my ex lies over nothing. Instead of saying no to golfing with his friends he tells them he needs to go to my daughter's soccer tournament.  The only reason I know that one is cuz one of the friends was talking with me and mentioned the soccer tournament and it took me a few minutes to figure out the conversation.

Although, a couple of times I have omitted info from him due to I know he would overreact and when he found out I was "mud" and he doesn't know if he can trust me, blah, blah and then he'll lie or twist the truth

[hergestridge]

Lying is a tricky subject. The early years of our relationship were filled with frustration because of her unwillingness (or is it inability?) to be honest. Honesty is dangerous because it leaves you vulnerable.

My wife has avoids at all costs any situation where her wishes or suggestions can be rejected. She throws in an extra reason to add weight to her arugment. A sort of half-truth.

I want to travel abroad during our summer vacation. She hates travelling, but instead of saying "no" because she doesn't want to (and god knowns she doesn't have to!) she argues that the house needs renovation and we need to do this over the summer holidays.

We allways end up with my "wants" towards her "musts".

If the house renovation would be meassured against anything that she cared for and wanted then the issue wouldn't have been brought up at all. In fact we haven't done any house restoration ever. We call for outside people to do that.

And what would eventually happen would be that we would by four buckets of paint and stay at home for four weeks. That's her plan basically.

It's things like these that gives me headaches. Trying to reason with my wife until she realizes why and how I think she's being dishonest - it's a lot of work! And it's barely worth it, because in a case like this she can agree with everything I've written above and still think she's in the right.

I have a real problem with this. We play by different rules. I have a very strong "fair game" ethic in life and in my reasoning, and she sees nothing wrong with a few "dirty tricks", even when dealing with loved ones.

[MissTajo]

This is one of the biggest issues on my r/s. Especially because I dont lie but keep beeing acused that I do... . He tried to find this little lies on things I simply forgot! Cause it didnt matter.

His lies are courageous tough. He draws. Its one of his things. And I find out that one of his drawing is a EXACT copy of one famous on the internet. Details and everything. He stuck by it. Why? I dont know. Its a stupid thing to lie about. But he does... . All . the . time.

I just keep hoping the lies are about this stupid little things and not something worse

[unicorn2014]

Even when there is absolutely no need or reason to lie or hide a truth, she still will. 

My ex would do the same thing, he couldn't tell the truth no matter how small. I asked his parents about it, and his mom said that he was born with a lie in his mouth. I think when they are born with that issue, nothing can change it.

At least you can talk to his parents. Some borderlines cut their parents off entirely and then you can't talk to them at all.

[FigureIt]

I just find it hopeless sometimes to have a conversation with my bf, since he lies about the littlest things.

Last night he was on the phone for a bit, and I thought he was talking to his mom (who fell on ice this week.)  So, to make conversation be interested... . I said "was that your mom?" his response "yes", me "how is she feeling?"  him "she's sore."   

Even though I know I shouldn't, I checked his phone later, and it wasn't his mom... . He was talking to his son about an issue that happened at school.

So why lie? 

Even this morning I mentioned "Can we do something together tonight?"  His response "We'll see, if don't have to work late."   He NEVER NEVER NEVER works passed 4:30 on a Friday.


Now I feel like not even trying to have converstions and question why be with him if there is no truth.

And heaven forbid if I don't tell him I won't be home at lunch, or I go somewhere without telling him first, etc.

[momtara]

I have a unique experience because when I finally left my husband - and he wanted to come back - and I insisted he had to come clean before I even considered it - he finally owned up to all his lies, including a very serious one of telling the police he abused our son when it wasn't true.

He said that when he said it at first, he believed it to be true.  However, minutes later, he knew it wasn't.  Yet, he persisted with it.  He told me he knew the lie wasn't true "almost immediately afterward."

Here is what I think is happening:  Their 'good' personality can't come to terms with the cruel or bizarre things they do when triggered.  So they come up with a cover story that will explain their behavior.  Often, that story puts the blame on the other person.  It is the only way how they can function with this illness. 

If you were generally a good person, but at times did horrible, disgusting, hurtful things that drove away people you loved, how could you cope with having done something so awful?  In their case, it's with cover stories, with untrue versions of the events.  I am NOT excusing the behavior, just explaining that the things they do are so despicable and severe that they can't come to terms with it, because they are otherwise not like that (except for the illness).

It is very hard for anyone to own up to wrongdoing or to realize they did terrible things.  As a result, they create a different version of the events in their heads, and start believing it.  In the case of my husband, I pushed him enough that he finally admitted he knew he had lied.

I don't want to let these folks off the hook by saying they can't control their behavior.  They can - but it is difficult without treatment.  This is an illness that we don't understand a lot about, and everyone is a little different.

In the case of my husband, he knew he lied... . maybe not right at that moment, but pretty soon after.  And then he had to keep lying to cover up.  During our marriage, I caught him in many lies and he always had the perfect answer for them, or he was just driven into a deeper rage, so it was pointless.  The mental illness is so severe that it makes them brilliant at lying.

There are also times, I think, that they genuinely imagine things for no apprarent reason.  There were a few harmless lies that I think weren't lies but things my husband misheard or believed, because he didn't stand to gain from them whatsoever.  Like, he said I had told him one of our friends liked to drink a lot - but I never said that.  So it is really hard to tell where they are purposely lying and where they honestly have an illness that makes them hallucinate or remember things as they want to remember them.  Frustrating, isn't it?

When the lies are harmful, I don't think their intent is to drive us crazy, as with gaslighting someone.  I think their intent is to have a cover story for their awful behavior that allows them to exist and live with what happened.  Unfortunately, it does have the result of crazy-making or gaslighting and making us doubt our own version of events, and sometimes our sanity.

Of course, my husband's situation may not be the same as with everyone else, but it gave me a little insight.

Due to the makeup of their brain, or things from childhood, or both, pwBPD can't cope with average stresses in relationships.  What results are... . terrible things.  And those things lead to lies and more terrible things.   I don't think they understand  some of their own reactions and behavior during those times. 

There is probably a weird reason your hubby changed clothes.  Or maybe not.  Why he chose to lie, I don't know. 

Oh, and the first year of my relationship, my husband used to accuse me of lying, and used to say other people "lied" when they hadn't.  It was kind of a severe, black and white thing to say.  I have found that pwBPD project a lot.  Often, they will accuse you of the very things THEY do.  Maybe they think everyone is like them, or maybe they are just suspicious because of their illness. 

[momtara]

OK, I read some of the responses, which were more about harmless lies they purposely tell for no apparent reason.  I don't really understand why they do that, but that seems different than the serious, blaming lies and just seems like another weird, frustrating thing that happens with certain BPD's.  Maybe these types of lies are a way to keep you off balance... . hell, maybe in this case they ARE gaslighting you to keep you from finding out about their own illness.  I don't know!

The woman who lied about calling another man, well, that just seems like an intentional coverup.

This business about lying about harmless things for no apprarent reason is another matter entirely.  Just another weird BPD thing that can drive us all crazy.

[unicorn2014]

Is anybody interested in discussing gas lighting? If so should I start a separate topic? It's related but not the same. I'd like to know how people deal with gas lighting.

[momtara]

I think it's a worthy topic.  I wonder how you tell if they're doing it to make you think you're crazy, or just to confuse you to hide their own mental illness.  No matter what the reason, it's frustrating. 

[FigureIt]

I would agree gaslighting is very frustrating. The last time my uBPDbf raged at me and I was upset, I took time the next day to be away. When I talked to him about it and asked why he didn't apologize, he spun it on me by stating I left and when I came back I watched tv in another room.  Not like he couldn't of come and found me.

[Lilibeth]

Gaslighting is not only frustrating, it is also very difficult to get out of... . if you are told very convincingly that your thinking is faulty/defective, or you did what you did selfishly without thinking of the consequences (when in fact you did what you did as a means of keeping your sanity against what they were doing to you), it does take time, and is a painful process for me to erase all that i have heard about myself and my deficiencies and then get on with life... . by that time i'm often exhausted and worn out... . starting all over seems too uphill... .