Heard from exBPDgf today

[Murbay]

Been NC with exBPDgf for a couple of weeks now and today I get a text. I knew it would come at some point but thought I might have felt some sense of relief and joy when it did. Instead, I have cried, feel sadness, anger and nauseous too.

It's only been 3 weeks since she ran off with replacement so really was not expecting to hear from her so soon. Here is what she had to say.

Hello. I'm probably the last person you want to speak to right now. I hope your ok. I wanted to know if you have paid for the holiday we were taking in May. It's just my dad has been on the phone and he is concerned about **** (her daughter) because I told her when/where we were going. I can pay you the money back in installments if you want as obviously it's the least I can do. I understand if you tell me to F*** off but thought I would ask for **** (her daughter) sake as she is really upset, that's all xx

What really gets me angry and exBPDw does the very same thing, they make it about the children and force a response through emotional blackmail. It's this what tears me in 2 because as I said on a previous post about her children, there is nothing I wouldn't do for them and she knows that. On the other hand, I'm not responsible for her daughter being upset, she is. She chose to run off with replacement without thinking anything through, she chose to go silent and push away but now would like a response.

I need to think through and possibly sleep on it before I decide on whether I respond or even how to respond. Obviously I'm not going to let her daughter miss out on a holiday with her grandparents but really need to think this through. My family told me a couple of weeks ago after I found out about replacement to just cancel it and get the money back, it's her issue and responsibility to deal with but I didn't. Only for the sole reason her daughter is innocent in all of this so why should she lose out? It's exBPDgf that has lied, cheated, deceived and projected and she couldn't even offer an apology.

Again, I just feel so frustrated right now and feel like I'm being pulled in different directions.

[Johnny Alias]

Send her one last text saying to send the money in installments to your address and BLOCK all further communication. 

NC means you dont read texts or emails.  You don't listen to voicemails or stories from mutual friends.  You are in NO CONTACT. 

Even passively reading this garbage sets off PTSD in you.  Heart longings and pure rot for someone who ACTED a certain way to illicit support, money, attention, sex, a home, whatever. 

You don't have to talk to the ex gf AT ALL ANYMORE.  Take control.  This is your life.  You can't change her but you can change YOUR behavior and stop interacting with poison. 

Don't let her use a daughter as leverage.  Really sick stuff.  Listen to your family.  Get the money back.  Grieve.  Move on.  The amount of good the trip would be for the daughter is completely DWARFED by the amount of pain this will cause you.  I appreciate you wanting to be honorable... . but sometimes it is honorable to NOT HURT YOURSELF.  It's not your fault she'll miss out on trip... . it is your exes fault.  You need to know that. 

[In_n_Out]

Personally, I would cancel the trip, get your money back and tell her that she can book her own trip and work out payment with the travel agent or whomever. And *then* block all forms of communication from her. 

There's not going to be any way that you get painted the hero for anything here; if you let her pay you for the trip and they take, she will tell the daughter that YOU did something to cause problems with the trip and how SHE had to save it.  You're going to get painted black with any decision that you make so in my opinion do what is only best for you.  I know that you're attached to her daughter and that has to be really tough but it will be her moms word vs yours and even as much as she may adore you, she's going to side with whatever her mom tells her.

[phantom17]

Not exactly sure what her daughter being upset has to do with whether or not you have paid for the trip.

If it were me, I wouldn't even respond. It would make it worse IMHO.

My ex owed me money when we split. She contacted me to send a check. It never came. Just chalked it up as part of doing business.

I'd imagine she just wants a response, and to know if she can still manipulate you into giving her what she wants. I'd think about where that's going to put you emotionally if you do respond.  

[phantom17]

Not exactly sure what her daughter being upset has to do with whether or not you have paid for the trip.

 

On top of this, what difference does it make if you paid for the trip. How would any answer to this question make the daughter feel any better. 

it's stuff like this that makes us question our own sanity.

[phantom17]

oh... . so she's wondering "if you paid for the trip already, and if you have she wants to take her daughter and pay you back"?

Answer for me would be, "no I cancelled it and got a refund. Maybe the agency will let you book a new trip in installments. Good luck. Bye."

Or just cancel trip and don't respond.

then like in_n_out said, block everything.

[seeking balance]

My family told me a couple of weeks ago after I found out about replacement to just cancel it and get the money back, it's her issue and responsibility to deal with but I didn't.

I know this is pushing those kids buttons - so does she (directly or indirectly).

This is not about money or about a kids vacation - it is about control by her and letting go by you.

Can you get your money back and let her plan her own vacation (her responsibility, not yours)?  If you don't, you will be tied to waiting on money from her and it really is prolonging the ties - that is ok - but when the paybacks don't happen timely, I can likely show you a 100+ posts on these boards where people finally had to take the loss in order to save their sanity.

I know this is hard; wise move not to respond immediately so you can process your own emotions.

[Johnny Alias]

Money and possessions can seriously cloud issues.  At the end of the day they are simply not worth it for the pain your'e going through.

As for the little girl, unless you go full NC she might very well use her as a bargaining chip against you.  She knows its a weak spot.  One of my exes pulled that on me... . when I went to return stuff after one of our many breakups she brought the kids when she EASILY could have had her mom watch them.  It was a calculated move and broke my heart.

Another guy I know was breaking up with his BPD and she actually put her daughter on the phone to tell him how much she missed him. 

They're just possessions like we were to be used for whatever purpose they deem fit.  This is how the baton gets passed down from generation to generation.

Oh, the original ex I mentioned?  She married my replacement (despite the fact that we had an affair behind his back that he was fully aware of) had a kid, and moved to another state... . leaving her girls with the ex-husband.  She still sees them on occasion, but lets be serious... . SHE DITCHED HER KIDS SO SHE COULD GET WHAT SHE WANTS! 

Go full NC.  Leave this all behind. 

[Murbay]

Many thanks for the advice guys.

In terms of the money, it isn't about the money and I would rather walk away from that than accept taking it back from her. To be honest I have paid out a lot for her in the past few months since she gave up her job. I don't feel any resentment about that because it was my choice and it was to provide some security for her children. I wouldn't ask for any of that back, because like I said, that was my choice.

For those who didn't know, she sent me a text a few weeks ago to say she only causes suffering to everyone around her and needs some time on her own right now following the death of her best friend because that's how she deals with things. She said she was going away on her own to clear her head and asked if I could call in and check on the kids. I told her I understood and she can have all the space she needs and that I'm right here.

Had I not been told about the replacement, I would have been oblivious and used. It seems replacement is finished with now and just when she thought she was coming back, her cousin let her know that I was aware. Her entire family are disgusted at what she has done and I have no doubt at all that the text tonight was as a result of her father giving her hell. What she is doing is trying to back pedal. I've seen her do the same thing before, especially when her father is involved because he is brutal and doesn't take any crap.

Going NC in the terms you describe right now Johnny is a little more complicated right now because she has been appearing on TV over the past week. You are right though it has to be a complete blackout.

It is playing on a weakness because at Christmas, she had no job, was taking drugs, drinking and had no money for Christmas presents for the kids. I bought all of their presents because I was not going to let them go without. She knows too well that I won't let any of her kids go without and that's most likely the reason the focus is on her daughter.

The sad part is I do still care for her, despite what she did. I was going to break NC anyway on Monday to wish her luck at her friends funeral and hope it goes as well as funerals go etc... . The thing for me is that despite the fact I care, and despite the fact I miss her, she still lied, cheated and deceived, not just me but everybody else around her too and for that reason I couldn't take her back because I have self respect.

[seeking balance]

Many thanks for the advice guys.

In terms of the money, it isn't about the money

Ok then - can you make it a gift to her and her daughter and be done with it - repaying only opens up a can of worms for you.

The sad part is I do still care for her, despite what she did. I was going to break NC anyway on Monday to wish her luck at her friends funeral and hope it goes as well as funerals go etc... . The thing for me is that despite the fact I care, and despite the fact I miss her, she still lied, cheated and deceived, not just me but everybody else around her too and for that reason I couldn't take her back because I have self respect.

There is nothing wrong with sending thoughts regarding a funeral - be mindful that you may not get a response you want - but that is not the point really, is it?

Emotionally, you posted about the text - so you must feel triggered, right?

The feeling of frustration or anger in her using a kid to manipulate you runs deep from what you posted - it is completely ok to feel the way you do.

You are using your wise mind by processing the emotions before reacting - this is good too!

Now, there does seem to be a vacation issue outstanding - tactically, if it is not about money - would you be ok with the possibility of giving it as a gift to her and her daughter?

[Johnny Alias]

That's good that you have self respect.  If she's on TV read a book.  If you know where she hangs out dont go there.  Block her FB.  Block her phone.  Block her texts.  Block her e-mail.

No offense but she is INSANELY using you.  Taking advantage of you... . and then basically spitting in your face with all her maladjusted behavior.  

If you have self respect you must save yourself and cut her out of your life.  

I know I'm getting preachy here and I'm sorry.  I have been there.  

Don't break NC.  Not for a funeral.  Not for her daughter.  Not for money.  :)o this for yourself or she will keep using you.  If she cared about what a nice guy you were none of that evil behavior would have manifested.  She doesn't care how you feel or what your opinion is... . only what she can get from you.  They have LITTLE empathy if any for somone not giving them something.  Fact is you've been SPLIT.  Look up "splitting" if you're not familiar with it.  It means you've been painted black.  

It's over.  Cry, grieve, but let go of the hope of you having a house with a white picket fence, 2.5 kids, and growing into old age.  I had to grieve to, but she will not change for you or ANYBODY.  She will abuse the next guy too as she did the guy before you.  She will keep abusing you as long as you let her.  

I hate to see you in pain.  I know it is hard.  It gets better, but you have to commit to the NC on every level and occupy your mind with working out, taking up a hobby, changing your environment, taking a trip, dating eventually, WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO DO.  Get a therapist too.  Odds are the family and friends are getting tired of hearing about her.  

My two cents.  Good luck.  You're strong.  You can do it.  

[winston72]

Hello Murbay!

I had a very similar circumstance happen to me in my relationship.  I was scheduled to take an extended trip with my ex and her much younger brother in order to visit college campuses with him.  It was going to be a fun road trip along the California coast with a focus on fun, scenery, visiting campuses and helping her brother sort out his next life moves.  She is half mother, half sister to her brother and my stepping in to share some of this burden was a big help to her (anybody see some While Knight energy floating around?).  Flights were booked, cars were rented, all was set up.  Two nights before we are to depart, she tells me that her ex boyfriend is returning to our city and that she would like to give it a go with him.  It was completely out of the blue.  I had no warning of it at that time.  I was stunned, wounded, shattered... . but that is a story for another time!

The next day I called her and told her, just to confirm the obvious, that the trip to California was canceled.  She flipped out on me and asked how I could do this to her brother... . it was so important to him!  And, get this, she said it would make her brother think that I only liked him because I liked her.  He and I otherwise had an independent relationship, although not a strong one. 

Anyway, I would slice through the details and get to the final point... . I curtailed the trip itinerary and went on the essential parts of it with him.  During the trip, I had a very honest, calm chat with him about what happened and how much I was hurting... . all good.  No problem for him and he would have fully understood if I had cancelled.  I was in terrible shape during the trip, just full of hurt, so it was miserable for me. 

Now, fast forward two years.  I was having an meal exchange with her just a couple of months ago in order to clear up some old questions.  I asked her about this episode and why she waited until the last minute to cancel.  She said that she was being manipulative and wanting me to take her brother on the trip because it would be so good for him.

I am not sure if I should have taken that trip or just done something else with her brother.  Not sure how I feel about it in retrospect.  I need to think on this one! But, in the moment, I was in the proverbial FOG and I did feel guilty (yes, duh!) about canceling... . and I did not want him to be disappointed.  Okay, so those are my dumb issues... . but what stunned me is that her recollection was that she was consciously manipulating me to get the trip for her brother.  That was annoying, to say the least.

Moral of the story... . follow your conscience, act within your boundaries, the trip is not as important for the daughter or grandparents as having a genuine relatlioship with you... . an adult who has limits and boundaries and values and emotions.  The best part of my whole episode was the honest chat with her brother.  Trips, functions, tasks became big deals to my ex and thinking the trip was so valuable as to maneuver it to happen is just empty.  The honest connections with actual people are the gems.

Good luck, Murbay!  Please keep us informed.  Appreciating your posts lately... . your summary of this story really helped me think through this event of my own.

[Murbay]

Slept on it and still very frustrated this morning.

SB, you are right it triggered a lot of painful memories. The rages where I begged and pleaded which I see very clearly the projection going on.

Her cousin has been round this morning because apparently this week he was the brunt of one of the rages too. She is livid that someone told me she is in a new relationship, she thought she had covered her tracks pretty well and has gone off at her family and friends to the point she has shut down her main FB page because people are untrustworthy. What the hell does she expect when she posts up on FB that she is in a relationship, let alone other people being untrustworthy?

I am actually glad he told me because I was able to block off the other 2 pages she has. The disturbing thing is she has 3 very different personas going on and each page she has reflects that. Not only does she cycle through relationships but it appears she cycles through who she is too and finds people to match each one of those personas. You could say these are her mirror profiles.

That at least gave me validation of one thing, she is going to be running for her whole life.

So based on what she found out this week, it appears the text message was a re-engagement. Things aren't going that well with replacement, she found out I know the truth, and apparently spent the past week raging about me for not speaking to her. There is still the details around the vacation but it clears up the start of her message. The end of her message, she is wanting me to respond, to be angry at her, to "hate" her because then it justifies it in her own mind. Even that is a projection too. Everybody hates her is what I used to hear, she wants me to add myself to her list of people who hate her because she hates herself.

The problem with texts is you cannot gauge the context in how someone is trying to put it across. I found the "I hope you are ok" quite patronising considering what went on. But in true form, it has nothing at all to do with her daughter but all to do with how I view her. It's all about her.

The difficult part is knowing she has a disorder because I do still care and that is what I am battling hard with right now. So based on what I found out this morning, I'm not going to respond and I'm going to take a week or so to think things through carefully before I decide what is the right thing to do about the vacation.

I'm also fully aware too that some of that frustration and anger is mine to own. You would have thought I would learn the first time with exBPDw. There was always a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that had I known about BPD before , I might have been able to do something to help exBPDw. I felt when exBPDgf told me about her diagnosis, it was an opportunity to redeem myself and find closure, do things differently, have more patience and understanding. I guess ego got the better of me (and WKS Winston72) and I now realise the outcome is always the same. A lot of self reflection needed now I think.

SB, I have no issue at all gifting it to her. When she said she needed time on her own a few weeks ago and pleaded with me not to hate her, my initial reaction based on what she had gone through last month, was to gift her the vacation anyway. What I don't feel comfortable with is gifting the 3rd place to either replacement or replacements replacement. I need to call the agency today and see about getting myself removed from the ticket so it is only mother and daughter. if replacement or replacements replacement want to go, they can sort their own arrangements.

[Dog biscuit]

... . I have no issue at all gifting it to her. When she said she needed time on her own a few weeks ago and pleaded with me not to hate her, my initial reaction based on what she had gone through last month, was to gift her the vacation anyway... .

Hey Murbay,

How would you feel about this gift when she does something that will hurt you again? Would you feel resentment, anger, loss of selfworth?

To me it reads like you want to do "good" by granting her that vacation, if not for her benefit, than it is for the daughter. You have been enough of a good guy, and it didnt change anything, or made it all better. She will not suddenly see/feel how great of a guy you are.

I geuss what I am trying to say is, I hope you dont expect something in return, like good karma points, less hurtfull actions from your ex, or gratitude. If you want to give be aware that there are no ulterior motives from you, for wanting to give this to her.

Frankly , I have a hard time understanding why you want to give her a vacation after all she has putt you trough.

[Murbay]

I geuss what I am trying to say is, I hope you dont expect something in return, like good karma points, less hurtfull actions from your ex, or gratitude. If you want to give be aware that there are no ulterior motives from you, for wanting to give this to her.

Frankly , I have a hard time understanding why you want to give her a vacation after all she has putt you trough.

Hey dog biscuit, I completely understand where you are coming from and I won't deny it is an eternal conflict going around in my head at the moment. I don't tend to do things for gratitude or praise so would have no expectations of any of that in the first place.

Neither am I doing it to score any brownie points, though a little voice in my head is saying that if it creates peace and harmony then that's all well and good but it isn't a stunt to try and paint myself white in her eyes.

I would say the core reason is I don't want her daughter to miss out. She has 2 parents that are constantly in conflict, doesn't have a decent level of stability around her, is constantly neglected by both parents emotionally more than anything and really has a hard time trying to understand what is going on all the time. For the first time in many years, she had that level of stability, even if it was only for a short time.

She had things to look forward to without being disappointed or let down by either parent and the vacation was part of that. The conflict comes because the responsibility for it falling through lies on the shoulders of my ex but I am also equally as responsible since I booked and paid for it and am now sat in the position of having to make a decision.

If it means following through so that a little girl can have something she has been looking forward to and the flip side being that my ex gets a free vacation despite the lies, the cheating, the deception I would rather make a little girl happy who has done nothing wrong than punish her because of her mothers indiscretions.

For me it is the conflict of would you punish a child for the pain their parent has caused even it means the person who caused that pain is rewarded for it? I could be looking at things completely the wrong way, that is only where my head and feelings are right now and I'm trying myself in knots trying to process.

The way I look at things, my ex has a disorder which I can't comprehend what it must feel like for her. The disorder causes hurtful actions which we do feel and does affect us. Although I am angry at her actions and what she has put me through, I am equally responsible for allowing her to be able to do that and not upholding my own boundaries. So despite my own feelings of anger and frustration which is partly mine to own, I also have compassion and empathy towards her. It doesn't mean I don't hurt, it doesn't mean I should forget either or even dismiss but I have no reason at all to punish her for anything and by doing so, am I not dropping myself down to her level?

So to remove all of that from the equation, I need to figure out what is the best thing to do for her daughter without any of the other factors in play.

[winston72]

For me it is the conflict of would you punish a child for the pain their parent has caused even it means the person who caused that pain is rewarded for it? I could be looking at things completely the wrong way, that is only where my head and feelings are right now and I'm trying myself in knots trying to process.

The way I look at things, my ex has a disorder which I can't comprehend what it must feel like for her. The disorder causes hurtful actions which we do feel and does affect us. Although I am angry at her actions and what she has put me through, I am equally responsible for allowing her to be able to do that and not upholding my own boundaries. So despite my own feelings of anger and frustration which is partly mine to own, I also have compassion and empathy towards her. It doesn't mean I don't hurt, it doesn't mean I should forget either or even dismiss but I have no reason at all to punish her for anything and by doing so, am I not dropping myself down to her level?

So to remove all of that from the equation, I need to figure out what is the best thing to do for her daughter without any of the other factors in play.

Hey M... . I think you should consider some of your reasoning here a bit more critically. 

First of all, you are taking responsibility for everyone and everything here... . your ex, her daughter, the trip, providing a happy moment for the daughter, not punishing her, your lack of boundaries... . dude, you have thoughtfully and gently talked yourself into owning just about the whole show.  I know you are careful not to do this... . but it is happening, at least as I read your post.

You are perhaps over-determining the value of the trip to the daughter. The vacation is not an antidote for an unstable family.  It does not "punish" the girl if she does not go on the trip.  That is a harsh term with specific meaning... . and that meaning does not apply here.  It could also be said that you are teaching the little girl that feelings, boundaries and reality should be ignored in order to protect the value of material things.  That ain't good!  Sure she will be "disappointed" but that is not the same as punished, she might learn a low cost lesson on boundaries and consequences and be spared being with her unstable mother! 

You are not "equally responsible for allowing her to be able to do that and not upholding my own boundaries."  Not upholding your boundaries opened yourself up to emotional, financial, practical injury.  You were hurt, in part, because you were too exposed and vulnerable.  Your fuzzy boundaries did not cause nor have any role in her behavior.  You are not responsible in any way for her behavior... . period.  Period! 

Murbay... . you seem to be such a conscientious, caring person.  That part of you will always be there and should be nurtured by you.  Please layer in some clear-headed analysis to inform your compassion... . and I know that is exactly what you are referring to in the last sentence of your post. 

DogBiscuit, the references in your post to being "good" really zinged me.  Thank you.  I do have such a need to be a good guy... . and I am working that through every day.  I say to myself, "How else should I behave?  Should I be a bad guy?" as though there were only two alternatives!  Good stuff... . thank you.

[seeking balance]

I can understand being so emotionally spent that I just wanted to not make decisions for a minute to get my feet under me... . the more info I found out, the more pieces came together, it really was over-whelming.

What I don't feel comfortable with is gifting the 3rd place to either replacement or replacements replacement. I need to call the agency today and see about getting myself removed from the ticket so it is only mother and daughter. if replacement or replacements replacement want to go, they can sort their own arrangements.

Here is the thing, if you are calling and cancelling you, just cancel it all- let it go - honestly.  The point of gifting would be to keep it easy, clean break. 

I can look back on things I did, really it was about bargaining - I was gripping to hold on and I didn't even realize it at the time.  The "shoulds" took over my behavior rather than what was best for ME.  Right now Murbay - you really are the most important - save your money and save your sanity.   

[Murbay]

Many thanks SB and Winston, your words were pause for thought and so very true too. I woke up today with a lot more clarity.

On the face of it, the context of the text is a perfectly reasonable request but from a disordered individual. Obviously it doesn't go into the details of the events over the past couple of months. I believe that is the cause of some of my frustration, the fact that overnight, someone goes from loving, kind and caring to shutting down completely and running off with a replacement without any warning or signs. Quite simply because they perceived I was going to abandon them based on how they felt about themselves.

The anger I have felt isn't around what is in the text but more around my own emotional pain and a subconscious expectation that perhaps I was expecting a little remorse, an apology or some kind of closure. Instead, it felt like what the text was saying "I know I've hurt you and my family aren't happy at me because it's affecting other people. I don't like like this feeling so I'm going to pass it over to you and put the hurt I have caused my family and children on you too"

My feelings are mine to own and although I can process why I feel the way I do. I am also mindful that she is unable to do that. I'm also frustrated at allowing her to cross my boundary, seeing the manipulation but still allowing it into my head.

As Winston pointed out "punished" is a bit of a strong word to use and I completely agree with that. It also helped me to realise something too, me and my ex's daughter are the same person. I'm attempting to rescue my inner child and I think the word "punished" applies to me more than it does her. It does confuse me a little because I didn't grow up in a "disordered" family in that sense, my mother doesn't have a PD but I know what it is like to grow up with an emotionally unavailable parent and I do see me in her her actions and interactions.

My parents divorced when I was 7 and my dad stayed working overseas. There was no abandonment in that sense because I was used to him being away for months on end so I wan't losing a close bond. On the other hand, it meant my mother had to work very hard to support me and my sister on her own. She had several jobs and also put herself into university to make a better life for us. I assumed the caretaker in the house and took care of my sister. We didn't get an allowance so I started working from the age of 12 and all the way through school too. I learned that the things in life you want you work for and my money went between the things I like to do and also helping out my family.

I know that's where my generosity comes from, there was never any praise for doing it so I never expected any. To me it was a necessity but one that people have seen and taken advantage of over the years. Me, my mother and my sister are still a solid family unit, me and my sister are close but I don't have that closeness with my mother. We have a relationship that works for us and because it wasn't out of malice or neglect and was born out of genuine reasons, there is no anger or animosity. It is what it is and it was still growing up with an emotionally unavailable parent for the reason she was out working to provide for us.

So to that degree, I do know how my ex's children felt because even if the circumstances are different, the feelings and emotions are just the same. It's also very difficult to explain because I'm not trying to rescue because of my own feelings. It's something I have spoken with my T about. As a child, I didn't know where those feelings were coming from but as an adult, some of it was down to abandonment, some of it was perhaps resentment and there were also feelings of guilt too. I felt that by losing my childhood and being put into the role of caretaker, I was being "punished" for the divorce and often wondered if I was the cause of it. As an adult, everything does make more sense, you soul search, seek answers to the questions and put everything into perspective. So for me, rescuing has never been about unresolved childhood issues and more about if someone has the opportunity earlier in life to find those answers, it will save a lot more time in the future for them to do the things they want to do.

I see the manipulation in the last sentence now and it is very intentional. My ex knows that I would do anything for my own children. That has led to me being taken advantage of a very long time ago, but I know that too has been because what I have spoken about above. I'm also fortunate that this was from a healthy relationship so we were both able to look at what we were both doing and work through our differences. We have a strong relationship, because even though things didn't work out between us, we both understand that we are working in the best interests of the children and communicate.

If my eldest gets grounded because of her attitude, I know about it. It isn't my exgf passing that on to me or wanting me to sort it out, it's her letting me know so our teenage daughter doesn't play one off against the other. Likewise, if my exgf dishes out another form of punishment, I might not agree but I still support her and then me and my ex will talk through things after. Sometimes I see her perspective other times she sees mine. Likewise, if her bf does the same thing with my daughter then we communicate. My daughter has turned on him several times to let him know he is not her father. He has been in her life for the past 7 years and is a really decent guy. We communicate so we can stand as a united front but also to provide stability.

My exBPDgf views things in a very different light. I'm being used, you should hate all exes, as a parent you do what you do and they do what they do, and there is no requirement for any kind of communication. If none of those things are met, it means you are either in love with them or they are with you, in which case you are going to abandon your gf and run back to your ex. She had an extreme hatred for any woman who asked their ex for any help or assistance to do with the children.

That's why the last sentence in the text is manipulation because it goes against everything she believes in but she knows I wouldn't refuse if I thought the kids were in trouble.

So what I'm going to do about this is the following.

I have cancelled me from the ticket and I'm going to gift it. Instead of it being about a rescue attempt or giving in to manipulation or even trying to please family members, it's about me. About the fact that when I have the opportunity to do the right thing, I do it. It's about the fact that if I have the tools or ability to put a smile on someones face, I do it. If I have the chance to offer kindness and compassion to another person, I do it. There are bad or misguided people out there who will always try to take advantage. My healing isn't going to be based around changing who I am to fit the minority but keeping my values and working hard to spot the minority before they have that opportunity.

So it's not about how upset ex's daughter is or what ex wants or needs right now. She could manipulate the whole thing, tell people whatever she wants to if it makes her feel better. None of that is any of my concern and the only thing that is, is staying true to who I am and do the right thing by me.

I apologise now for the length of the response, Aspie brain been in overdrive for the past few days and just needed to get it all out 

[love4meNOTu]

Murbay, I hope you don't mind me jumping in at the last moment here.

The one regret I have left from my marriage is that the first time he raged at me I didn't gather my stuff up and get the heck out.

I did not have good boundaries, and every time he raged he got worse. In essence, he was testing me to see how much rage I would put up with. I finally drew the line when he did it to me in front of my two boys.

I had a dream the other night that I stood up to him when he was raging at me the first time. I said that I would not put up with being called those kind of names and that he had two choices, I leave for the night or he does. And not to return until he can act like a human being. Who knows what would have happened if I had done that. Probably nothing, but it sure would have made me feel better about myself. I put up with way too much crap from him. Still can't believe the accusations I sat through.

I guess this is my point. Right now giving her the vacation seems like the nice guy thing to do, and makes you feel good about yourself.

In a year from now, if she marries a replacement, you won't feel that great about providing her with a vacation. Just sayin'.

I gave my ex my wedding and engagement rings. (I paid for them). He gave them to his new fiancee a couple of months ago. How do you think I feel about that generosity now?

That's right, not so great.

Don't be me. Don't get played.



L

[Conundrum]

It's all part and parcel of a predictable cycle. The pwBPD cannot process feelings in a regulated manner and therefore relies on her ability to predict outcomes via repetitive intuitional observation. She is able to predict the outcome because she knows your weaknesses. You are able to compartmentalize doing right by the girl as being distinct from the mother's malfeaseance, but the pwBPD knows better. She is able to push your KISA buttons. And of course she is right.

The girl is illustrative of your desire to maintain a connection with the mother. Since you cannot be the KISA who saves the mother, then in alternative you save the girl. Consequences trickle down to others, even the innocents and that is the natural order of life.  When we partition and rationalize, then we maintain our savior status while still being subjected to actions that are either disrespectful or lowers our self esteem. Your philosophy that no matter what the mother, does I still protect the child, is noble in theory, but it is a fallacy. The child is the mother's responsibility and not yours. It is fine to maintain contact with the child in an abstract sense, but keep your dineros in your pocket for your own. It sends a message. Money talks, BS walks.

If you want to make headway with your pwBPD, even when broken up--be counter predictable. You need to shake up her rock solid belief that she can always predict outcomes. Go against the grain and act in a manner that she would not expect. It rocks her zeitgeist, and changes the dynamic. The less predictable you are the more they respect you. Good luck.

 

[Murbay]

Love4me,

Thank you for your words. It can be really difficult to process when we witness that first rage out of nowhere. In terms of boundaries, what you did for your children shows great courage and you did the right thing too.

Nobody should have to go through the accusations, feeling like being on trial for something you haven't done or in the extreme case, physical abuse. How did your dream make you feel when you woke up? Could it be your dream was your subconscious telling you that you are getting stronger in yourself and on the right path to healing?

I have been played in the past, some of it intentional, other times not and again, that is all down to allowing it to happen and that's what I need to work on.

The vacation is always going to be a gamble. I'm not expecting gratitude or for it to have some kind of hidden message behind it. As far as her marrying a replacement, that will be her choice to make. I won't be in a position a year from now where I allow her decisions to affect me. The truth of the matter is that the moment she chose to run off with someone else she became their problem.

To put it into perspective, had it been a vacation for just the 2 of us. I would either have still gone and taken a friend or given the vacation to my mother as she hasn't been well and could use the break. Why this became an issue for me is because there was an innocent child caught up in the damage.

I have 2 tickets for a show I was taking her to at the end of March, I'm still going and taking my friend. I bought her a spa weekend for her birthday next week, I'm using that one myself.

There are moments but then I remind myself that she knows she is disordered and has done for 18 years now but chose to do nothing about it. Instead she chooses to give in to her thoughts and fears and run from her issues every time. That's her choice to make and she is only going to keep running away each time.

In answer to your statement. How will I feel a year from now if she marries a replacement. Honest answer, not anywhere near as bad as he will be feeling when the inevitable happens.

Conundrum - Your last paragraph reminded me of an anecdote. Back in my army days, we were trained for any eventuality. One of those things was how to deal with highly trained guard dogs using non-lethal force. For anyone who has seen how guard dogs and to a degree police dogs are trained, it's by having them chase after someone who is running away. That process is then imprinted in the dogs mind so when you enter an area and come face to face with a nasty looking viscous dog, your first instinct is to run. The dog has been trained for that and comes right after you.

How you beat the guard dog is instead of running away from it, you run towards it. It creates confusion in the dogs mind because it isn't the reaction it has been trained for so you can't possibly be the enemy. The first time I saw this done, the dog laid down waiting for it's belly tickling. We trained our dogs for both eventualities so your statement carries a lot of validity. Remove the predictable and it changes the dynamic.

[seeking balance]

Murbay,

If everyone put so much courage into their own emotions - wow, what a world we would live.

Please do not ever apologize for processing very real, deep emotions here... . this is life changing stuff.  Recognizing our own lonely child and healing that is what you are doing - very, very hard work and not the norm.  I hope when time passes, you come back and reread this thread.

I have cancelled me from the ticket and I'm going to gift it. Instead of it being about a rescue attempt or giving in to manipulation or even trying to please family members, it's about me.]About the fact that when I have the opportunity to do the right thing, I do it. It's about the fact that if I have the tools or ability to put a smile on someones face, I do it. If I have the chance to offer kindness and compassion to another person, I do it. There are bad or misguided people out there who will always try to take advantage. My healing isn't going to be based around changing who I am to fit the minority but keeping my values and working hard to spot the minority before they have that opportunity.

I am proud of you Murbay - sticking with your values because it is WHO YOUR ARE.  I can appreciate this and I get it.   

,

SB

[Murbay]

What a difference a couple of weeks makes in the grand scheme of things. I took myself away for a well deserved vacation. Strapped on my skis and snowboard and just enjoyed the peace and tranquility of the mountains away from the mixed up world of BPD.

Reread this post on my return and SB, you are completely right with everything you have said 

In terms of the things I talked about in this post. Gifted the vacation after a conversation with exBPDgf's son. He is angry at the treatment I got and tired of seeing the pattern repeat itself. I told him not to take responsibility for his mothers actions but there is nothing wrong with being there to support her. Told him I do still care about her and that my only wish was for her happiness so don't carry any anger or resentment towards her. My only wish is that she finds what she truly wants. There was still a small balance outstanding on the vacation, so have passed over that responsibility to her. I said I didn't expect the money I have paid out to be returned and to consider it my contribution to helping her daughter and family have a great time.

I didn't send a text on the day of the funeral either. I thought about her and the family of her friend that day and my heart went out to them but didn't feel I had to "let her know" that. I could still feel those things in private without complicating matters and that's what I chose to do.

Likewise, it was her birthday a week ago and I did the same thing then, remembered her on her birthday and left it at that.

Valentines Day was something I was kind of dreading after a break up so close to it. It turned out to be an amazing day all round for very different reasons, spent with friends having one of the best times ever. A reminder that love comes in all shapes and sizes and to be perfectly honest, had it been spent with the ex, it would have been a day of making an effort only to be put down, raged at and ending with frustration. Heard from ex's son that Valentines Day was a complete nightmare in the household, I didn't go into detail with him because I don't need to know but I did feel sad for my ex.

I also realised while I was away that where the relationship opened up some core wounds about my exBPDw, it has also given me a much greater insight and allowed me to have closure from both. Little things that I was still holding on to from my exBPDw have finally been let go because in some ways the answers came from understanding the relationship with exBPDgf. While they are very different people, they also shared some of the very same core issues. I now understand it's not my responsibility, nor is it possible for me to heal those issues.

I believe I'm ready now to take the step up to L6 because I decided to leave the White Knight high up in the Alps. My concern is going to far the other way now, so need to work on finding that balance between the two