Can they feel empathy?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Can people wBPD feel empathy, for themselves or others? I know they can feel emotions, my ex could get angry at the smallest perceived slight. Whether that slight was real or not, she got genuinely angry. But if my ex was required or needed to show any amount of empathy for another person it was a completely different story. It was awkward, contrived and looked like it caused her actual physical pain. It was always followed by an angry response. Is it they don’t know how to express the emotions or don’t they feel them?

[coastalfog1]

Can people wBPD feel empathy, for themselves or others? I know they can feel emotions, my ex could get angry at the smallest perceived slight. Whether that slight was real or not, she got genuinely angry. But if my ex was required or needed to show any amount of empathy for another person it was a completely different story. It was awkward, contrived and looked like it caused her actual physical pain. It was always followed by an angry response. Is it they don’t know how to express the emotions or don’t they feel them?

[GreenMango]

DSM-5 sheds some light... .

The DSM-5, due out in 2013, will bring a number of changes to the definition of the personality disorders.  The working group is trying to do away with the complex multiaxial diagnostic approach and to make the personality disorders more discrete (less overlap) - basically the Axes I, II, III will be consolidated to one -- the 10 personality disorders will be reduced to 5 or 6.

But maybe the greatest change for non-professionals like ourselves, is that they are attempting to clearly define the lne between personality disorder and personality style.

Have a look... .



The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose borderline personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:

Self (impairment in at least 1):

Identity: Experience of oneself as unique, with clear boundaries between self and others; stability of self-esteem and accuracy of self-appraisal; capacity for, and ability to regulate, a range of emotional experience.  To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Self-direction: Pursuit of coherent and meaningful short-term and life goals; utilization of constructive and prosocial internal standards of behavior; ability to self-reflect productively.   To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Interpersonal (impairment in at least 1):

Empathy*: Comprehension and appreciation of others’ experiences and motivations; tolerance of differing perspectives; understanding of the effects of own behavior on others.    To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Intimacy*: Depth and duration of positive connections with others; desire and capacity for closeness; mutuality of regard reflected in interpersonal behavior.   To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).





Below is the scale for "empathy".  There are four scales in total.

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing.  Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering.  Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4)  Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance).  Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.



Here is the scale for intimacy.  There are four scales in total

Healthy (0) -Maintains multiple satisfying and enduring relationships in personal and community life. Desires and engages in a number of caring, close and reciprocal relationships. Strives for cooperation and mutual benefit and flexibly responds to a range of others’ ideas, emotions and behaviors.

Mild impairment (1) -Able to establish enduring relationships in personal and community life, with some limitations on degree of depth and satisfaction.Capacity and desire to form intimate and reciprocal relationships, but may be inhibited in meaningful expression and sometimes constrained if intense emotions or conflicts arise. Cooperation may be inhibited by unrealistic standards; somewhat limited in ability to respect or respond to others’ ideas, emotions and behaviors.

Impaired (2) Capacity and desire to form relationships in personal and community life, but connections may be largely superficial. Intimate relationships are largely based on meeting self-regulatory and self-esteem needs, with an unrealistic expectation of being perfectly understood by others. Tends not to view relationships in reciprocal terms, and cooperates predominantly for personal gain.

Very Impaired (3) Some desire to form relationships in community and personal life is present, but capacity for positive and enduring connection is significantly impaired. Relationships are based on a strong belief in the absolute need for the intimate other(s), and/or expectations of abandonment or abuse.  Feelings about intimate involvement with others alternate between fear/rejection and desperate desire for connection. Little mutuality: others are conceptualized primarily in terms of how they affect the self (negatively or positively); cooperative efforts are often disrupted due to the perception of slights from others.

Extreme Impairment (4)  :)esire for affiliation is limited because of profound disinterest or expectation of harm.  Engagement with others is detached, disorganized or consistently negative. Relationships are conceptualized almost exclusively in terms of their ability to provide comfort or inflict pain and suffering. Social/interpersonal behavior is not reciprocal; rather, it seeks fulfillment of basic needs or escape from pain.



The remaining scales are listed here:  dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions.aspx?rid=468

Part of the disorder can be an impairment in empathy.  When the clinicians were considering revising the DSM they developed scales for impairment in self skills and interpersonal skills including empathy.




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[ogopogodude]

I love how us "nons" talk about BPD's as "they" etc, ... . like they are aliens from another planet.

I am guilty of this as well... .

[Moonie75]

My ex has no difficulty feeling & showing empathy for others. She can be extremely empathetic. I even saw sad stories on the news make her eyes well up!

But, and here's the rub... . She only seems to feel empathy for people in situations which she had no part in. Where she doesn't own any shame for the event which may have hurt a persons feelings. She positively exudes empathy when someone's been wronged, hurt or suffered & there's no need to look at herself!

In events where she needs to own some or all of the shame for something which has caused hurt or suffering, forget it! She's absolutely incapable of going there (outwardly). It's just too dangerous & scary for her to own something & be required to feel & process some shame!

If she were to open that door, god knows what we'd see?

She can't process shame, so she can't empathize with results of her own behavior, words & actions.

Like said, she can empathize with any situation which doesn't require her to process/own anything herself.

[santa]

My ex only cares about herself. The only time she cares about others' feelings is how it relates to her.

[Changingman]

Moonie,

We had dogs together on her begging and manipulating me and my kids, I love dogs and had some in my marriage. She lost connection with them and they too became need gratifying objects. She would play with them like a cuddly toy only. I had to take care of all their needs. She was incapable. One was deaf and needed special attention and was paranoid around strangers ( I wonder why ).

She could bite very easily and her breed are put down if deaf. The ex knew the dog would be put down when she left. She wouldn't even have closure with that, never asked or cared at all about them.

Shallow emotions, wishy washy fairy tale sentimentality but zero empathy. I mean zero. Her ability to love the same shallow wishy washy sentimentality, infatuation, porn style sex. Ability to love zero, literally zero. Her mother came to our town to visit her cousin and didn't even tell her. When my ex found out she was asking me why I thought her mother acted this way. Her fairy tale story of her parents was so incongruous to what I actually saw ( father a complete alcoholic, mother kind of not really there ), her relations didn't like her, she was kicked out of school, failed at finishing her chef training, her coworkers/managers had it in for her, her best female friend didn't talk to her for 2 years, her best male friend was a waste of space (her words).

Does she feel real empathy or love not just an act to fit in with normal people?

No, no she is incapable. Either through such lability of emotions that she has no space left or is lacking in it altogether. This would explain the ferocity of her drink, drug, sex, 'accidents' addictions. Something to penetrate the thick walls of nothingness.

[thisyoungdad]

My ex has no difficulty feeling & showing empathy for others. She can be extremely empathetic. I even saw sad stories on the news make her eyes well up!

But, and here's the rub... . She only seems to feel empathy for people in situations which she had no part in. Where she doesn't own any shame for the event which may have hurt a persons feelings. She positively exudes empathy when someone's been wronged, hurt or suffered & there's no need to look at herself!

In events where she needs to own some or all of the shame for something which has caused hurt or suffering, forget it! She's absolutely incapable of going there (outwardly). It's just too dangerous & scary for her to own something & be required to feel & process some shame!

If she were to open that door, god knows what we'd see?

She can't process shame, so she can't empathize with results of her own behavior, words & actions.

Like said, she can empathize with any situation which doesn't require her to process/own anything herself.

This was my experience with my ex as well. She is a medical doctor and a very good one at that. She has high recommendations and patients love her, and in big part to her ability to really listen and empathize with them. I have seen it even when we would run into one in the store. It was truly incredible and one of the things I was/sometimes am so attracted to. However over time I learned that I didn't get that same empathy except perhaps a couple very rare occasions. This really came to hurt me and I didn't understand it until I learned about this disorder and that she had it. It has been difficult for me to know she has the true capacity to have it for other people but not for me. That was one of the most heartbreaking things for me, when she was unable (I don't think unwilling) to see how her actions were hurting both me and our daughter, even when I was sitting in couples therapy crying my eyes out like I have never done before in front of anyone. I was that heartbroken and the therapist was so nice she felt really bad for me I knew it. My ex though sat there and didn't react at all. It was like a a final blow to my already crushed heart and I would ask her why she didn't care or if she did and no answer was my answer.

[loz1982]

My ex isn't capable of empathy I sat crying for a week after he was rude to my parents for the last time and they never wanted to see him again and he said please eat something I'm worried about you like he had no idea he was the solution to my problem. So he sent an apology email to my parents cause he didn't want to see my mum and I so unhappy. Another time after I had left him to pick up the last of my stuff I was just crying and went home crying and he was ringing me after putting my stuff on the deck ready for me to collect, that he was worried about me and even got a friend of his to ring to check up on me! Seems to have no idea that he has caused me to be like this. My uncle died I travelled interstate to the funeral and when I got home he said we have to talk don't think we are on the same page as my cooking and cleaning had lacked a bit recently. My grandma died did a 10 hour round trip to see her and she died the next day. I got home distraught 10mins later he wanted to talk about our problems and make sure I'm taking blame for them. The apology email was then taken back cause he got angry with my response and my parents copped more abuse even when I said don't send another email my dad had been told his mum didn't have long to live! My ex didn't care about this!

[growing_wings]

Can people wBPD feel empathy, for themselves or others? I know they can feel emotions, my ex could get angry at the smallest perceived slight. Whether that slight was real or not, she got genuinely angry. But if my ex was required or needed to show any amount of empathy for another person it was a completely different story. It was awkward, contrived and looked like it caused her actual physical pain. It was always followed by an angry response. Is it they don’t know how to express the emotions or don’t they feel them?

there is a difference between empathy & Sympathy. see this 3 min video

www.karmatube.org/videos.php?id=4646

i have read a lot that one of the reasons pwBPD behave they way they do, is due to their lack of Empathy, they might display sympathy for someone, but they cant feel empathy,  if they would, they would behave differently towards their closest people. In my experience, i dont think they can feel empathy... .   they love that people feel empathy for them, but mine couldnt really show it to others.  All she showed was sympathy at best (meaning she felt sorry for others and even cried for it, but did she put herself in other's people shoes and truly understand their pain? No, she didnt.

[Free2Bee]

Most of the time, my ex showed signs of empathy, but when she was in the midst of a rage episode, there was NO empathy. Nil, nada. She was as cold as stone. It's like her heart shut down during a rage.

[growing_wings]

Like said, she can empathize with any situation which doesn't require her to process/own anything herself.

Moonie, a person must involve and process feelings herself in order to empathize... .   otherwise is called Sympahty

[seeking balance]

Taking the facts GM outlined early in the post and elaborating a bit... .

Behavior is the issue that most nons have with pwBPD - not the emotion itself... . rather how that emotion plays out.

If empathy that is felt triggers a shame response - the behavior (rage, cutting, cheating, etc) to cope with that is where nons get discouraged.

Now - what triggers a pwBPD?  Intimate relationships, right?  So, might a pwBPD feel empathy for a stranger, but not for you?  yep!

Is it they don’t know how to express the emotions or don’t they feel them?

For people trying to detach, depersonalize so grieving can take place - to really understand it is the behavior that is rooted from maladaptive coping to a strong emotion is the key.

Marsha Linehan - BPD guru who created dbt and came out as BPD a few years ago - clearly says about the disorder:  pwBPD emotional skin is like a 3rd degree burn all of the time.  Take a bit of time to empathize with that ourselves - what if you or I had an ACTUAL 3rd degree burn and someone wanted to put medicine on it - do you think we might react angrily or pull away?  YES - can we logically say it is going to help and calm ourselves down... . sometimes and sometimes a reaction is bigger than our ability to control.

Taking this to BPD and emotions - shame/fear/lonely - feels way bigger to them than to us even at our worst.  CT scans have actually shown this in BPD brains.  As such, sometimes empathy for another is fine, but other times, that empathy might trigger deep fear of abandonment and before they know it that knee jerk reaction looks like going out drinking and shamelessly flirting with a stranger... . or going online to a dating site and having a virtual affair.

It is doesn't meant they are not accountable, but understanding this at the root can help us depersonalize those really crappy behaviors.  It takes serious mindfulness to change - the ability to tolerate pain and work through it... . the same skill leavers are tasked with when they come to this board actually.