Do they feel guilt or remorse?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So yesterday I met my xBPDgf with our couple's T for very last time. We were there to discuss my children (11 and 13), and our telling them our 6 year relationship is over, and to work through any continued relationship my xBPDgf will have with them. My younger son, in particular, has formed a real attachment to her - thinks of her as his stepmother, and has asked often where she is. She moved out 2 1/2 months ago, and I told boys she was traveling for work (she has been gone for this length of time before). Though, in those absences she would call; this time nc with my children.

All to say, I sobbed through most of the T meeting. I couldn't help it; I'm just so devastated. She was teary too, but nothing like me. I was a mess. After we left the T's office, she said maybe it would be a good idea to talk a bit more. She tried to comfort me; I told her how consumed I was with "what ifs" and regret and guilt. What I found amazing was two things. First, she expressed no guilt or remorse whatsoever, even with the boys. For years she played a push and pull game even with them, and ultimately, after they formed attachments to her, she walks away as if they were nothing. Second, she then goes on to say - after we talk about the fact that I have to move out of the house (can't afford it on my own), am contending with two very sad and confused boys, and need to now relocate to a rental house (all in a few months, as she's demanding to be off our mortgage) - she then says that maybe in a year or so after I have worked on my issues, then maybe we can start dating again (she has diagnosed me with BPD, something our couple's T said was absolutely not the case).

I was stunned by her thought of getting back together in a years time - though shouldn't have been. She had one foot in and one foot out of our relationship for years, and I've been recycled more times than I would care to admit. Still, holding this out to me, while at the same time "painting me black" (our couple's T exact words) and showing zero remorse or guilt, even around the pain the boys are in, is stunning.

Right now I'm just desperately trying to pick up the pieces and make major life decisions at a time when I should be taking a deep breath. The hurt is excruciating, and so is my inability to understand her utter lack of remorse or guilt. Do they ever 'wake up' and understand their contributions and their serious emotional issues? I suppose my fear is the same as my hope - that is, one day she will wake up, and I will receive some gesture of understanding. Why do I fear this? Because if/when she does, she may be back at my doorstep.

[ConverseHome]

So yesterday I met my xBPDgf with our couple's T for very last time. We were there to discuss my children (11 and 13), and our telling them our 6 year relationship is over, and to work through any continued relationship my xBPDgf will have with them. My younger son, in particular, has formed a real attachment to her - thinks of her as his stepmother, and has asked often where she is. She moved out 2 1/2 months ago, and I told boys she was traveling for work (she has been gone for this length of time before). Though, in those absences she would call; this time nc with my children.

All to say, I sobbed through most of the T meeting. I couldn't help it; I'm just so devastated. She was teary too, but nothing like me. I was a mess. After we left the T's office, she said maybe it would be a good idea to talk a bit more. She tried to comfort me; I told her how consumed I was with "what ifs" and regret and guilt. What I found amazing was two things. First, she expressed no guilt or remorse whatsoever, even with the boys. For years she played a push and pull game even with them, and ultimately, after they formed attachments to her, she walks away as if they were nothing. Second, she then goes on to say - after we talk about the fact that I have to move out of the house (can't afford it on my own), am contending with two very sad and confused boys, and need to now relocate to a rental house (all in a few months, as she's demanding to be off our mortgage) - she then says that maybe in a year or so after I have worked on my issues, then maybe we can start dating again (she has diagnosed me with BPD, something our couple's T said was absolutely not the case).

I was stunned by her thought of getting back together in a years time - though shouldn't have been. She had one foot in and one foot out of our relationship for years, and I've been recycled more times than I would care to admit. Still, holding this out to me, while at the same time "painting me black" (our couple's T exact words) and showing zero remorse or guilt, even around the pain the boys are in, is stunning.

Right now I'm just desperately trying to pick up the pieces and make major life decisions at a time when I should be taking a deep breath. The hurt is excruciating, and so is my inability to understand her utter lack of remorse or guilt. Do they ever 'wake up' and understand their contributions and their serious emotional issues? I suppose my fear is the same as my hope - that is, one day she will wake up, and I will receive some gesture of understanding. Why do I fear this? Because if/when she does, she may be back at my doorstep.

[BorisAcusio]

They don't feel guilt, just doing whatever suits their needs.

[Madison66]

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this, ConverseHome.  Your story is gut wrenching, especially with how your kids have been affected.  I'm approaching 90 days since I cut the cord on my 3+ year r/s with uBPD/NPD ex gf.  We didn't live together, but she lives on my block about six houses away.  It took me several recycles, three rounds of unsuccessful couples T, and about a year and a half of individual T to build up the strength to finally leave the abusive r/s.  I continue to deal with the loss of the r/s and with facing the scars of the abuse and the issues I brought into the r/s.  I also struggled with telling my 14 year old d who had developed a r/s, but not a really close r/s, with my ex and her three young kids.  We had healthy discussions and she no longer even asks about or refers to the r/s.  I also celebrate each day I have without the chaos and unhealthiness of the r/s, and finding joy in rediscovering my "true self". 

What you are feeling is beautifully human and essential for your recovery.  There are ripple effects of making a life decision like you have courageously done.  I'm talking about healthy, positive things that will come to you and your kids from being away from a toxic person and r/s.  Your health and well being does totally affect how you care for yourself and your loved ones.  Your kids will benefit greatly from a healthier you!  Why would you possibly want to invite back into your lives the person and behaviors that have caused you such pain? 

N/c has been the best way for me to find the peace and space I need for my recovery.  I don't have a suggestion for how to deal with this in regards to your kids.  Protecting your kids from further "push and pull" abuse from your ex may mean cutting the cord completely as opposed to l/c.  I made this decision with regards to my daughter and it has worked out fine.  My ex attempted to contact my daughter after the b/u and I shut that down immediately.  Sounds rough, but for all the reasons I left the r/s I have no trust in the intentions of my ex. 

As for leaving the door open a potential reunion a year down the road, please look at the last 6 years to see that your ex most likely showed zero ability to do the work to change her behaviors.  I have completely found this to be true with my ex and it has been reinforced with recent attempts she has made to break n/c.  There is absolutely no empathy, compassion or respect for my needs and I'm so much more aware of it today.  As Ed Roland of Collective Soul sings in "Better Now", "it's time to celebrate you" and your kids and find a partner in the future who has the ability to love you and your kids as you deserve.  Run, run, run and close the door!

[LettingGo14]

Right now I'm just desperately trying to pick up the pieces and make major life decisions at a time when I should be taking a deep breath. The hurt is excruciating, and so is my inability to understand her utter lack of remorse or guilt. Do they ever 'wake up' and understand their contributions and their serious emotional issues? I suppose my fear is the same as my hope - that is, one day she will wake up, and I will receive some gesture of understanding. Why do I fear this? Because if/when she does, she may be back at my doorstep.

ConverseHome.  I am very sorry to hear what you are suffering.   I had a 4-year relationship with xBPDgf and my kids also formed an attachment to her.  She also abandoned, and painted me black.

When you are in the heart of darkness, it's very difficult to be kind to yourself.  But -- honestly - nothing matters more.

My experience taught me that disordered people "yo-yo" you.  I'd get "miss you" texts in the middle of the night, and door slammed in my face.  I'd also get "someday" comments, while at the same time painted black.

I wish I could put you where I am now.  I am done and detached.  But, I can't.  

All I can say is that we cannot & will not "fix" the Disordered person.  We cannot & will not understand their interior life.  

You will get through this.  Keep reading.  Keep coming here.   And, if at all possible, be kind to yourself.   Be present with your kids.

[ConverseHome]

I can not begin to express how helpful these posts are to me.

Staying present with my children, being kind and gentle to myself, and remembering to run, run, run and close the door. She has no introspective abilities into her emotional interior and the ways her past abuse is informing her present; it has always been about projecting these feelings onto me. Part of my healing process is understanding why I allowed her to define me in this way, and to remind myself that I am not evil, toxic, and sick, but rather a decent person who is imperfect. I am just human, and must remember and embrace the positive parts of myself as I move forward, and reflect on the ways in which I hope to change and grow.

Thank you again for all of your support here. Truly, it is a Godsend right now.

[bpdspell]

Do they feel guilt or remorse?

I would say minimally to a degree but they are more consumed with shame which is a much more powerfully destructive emotion. They know they are irrevocably flawed, damaged and that something's amiss inside of them because most times they are deeply misunderstood by those who are closest. Hell. They don't even understand themselves. They are so damaged on the inside that they cannot relate to what's considered "normal" due to their stunted wiring and their limited capacity in emotional immaturity.

Guilt and remorse are emotionally mature emotions that are a natural part of an emotionally healthy and evolved mind. Our ex's although "normal looking" have not healthily evolved on a mature level (this mechanism is totally busted inside of them) and this is why they are often unable to make amends or correct the "wrongs" of their disordered behavior. BPD is a real disorder in which their capacity to be emotionally evolved is severely compromised.

I agree with madison66. Allow yourself to grieve and feel and give yourself the permission to understand your pain and hurt on a deeper level. More than likely you have some unfinished business from childhood or some abandonment pain or injury that has lived inside of you way before you ex came into the picture.

Crying doesn't make you weak. It's cathartic and healing and you owe it to yourself to simply feel and be.

Keep posting.

Spell

[DreamGirl]

From my understanding, a pwBPD does feel these emotions - actually in a hyper vigilant way, where the pain from such negative emotions is pretty overwhelming and thus invoking the [poor] coping skills that you might be seeing. (splitting, passiveness) It'd be easier just not care wouldn't it?

BPD is a mood regulation disorder - meaning these really hard emotions are difficult for her to regulate.

I wanted to offer my experience as a stepmom... . when it came to my own stepdaughters, a possible divorce in the making, and my own coping skills.

Because I think her feelings are typical of how a stepmom feels, and her reactions/actions are typical of a stepmom with BPD.  

I love my stepdaughters but I also knew that being in their life connected me to their dad - which at the time was extremely difficult for me. I wanted pretty badly not to feel the hurt anymore, and walking away from all of them in one fell swoop made sense (at my lowest points).

As a person whose been to 107 therapy sessions, I also have a set of skills to separate the emotions from the reality of the situation. I was hurt, but I wasn't the only one involved. I'd been a constant presence in those little girls life for more then 8 years and my walking away only dealt with my issues.

When it comes to a pwBPD, getting past the feelings in order to see someone else's feelings has proven to be pretty difficult (due to the inability to regulate the emotion/self soothe).

So it's not really so much about your little ones and her not feeling anything towards them. I'm guessing that she really does love them in a way that makes sense to her. So if she's made a decision to walk away from them, it might have more to do with not knowing how to cope in the situation other then to put distant between her and what is causing her pain. Is not a very healthy coping skill.

The hard part now is helping your little ones grasp that concept too - that it's about her, not them.

-DreamGirl

[goingtostopthis]

Well, Im not sure if its true to say every person with BPD reacts  the same to feelings of remorse or guilt.  My boyfriend has said hes been sorry to me several times and I know hes meant it. Its only when hes been in this recent hateful episode of his that these two words dont even exsist, but I know he's capable of it.  I think its going to take him much longer now to come around to just how horrible he's been,  and feeling shame over this I can see he might feel. I really dont know. I dont think you can prescribe exact feelings on these people every time.     

[monkeyman]

I'm with BPDspell and Madison66.  Allowing yourself to feel grief and acknowledge your fear and sorrow is certainly an opportunity for personal growth.  As a matter of fact, I think the reason BPDs ruin so many relationships is that they are primarily concerned with running away from these feelings, rather than facing them. 

I think it is a hallmark with the BPD type that they will leave when you hit rough waters, and think about coming back as soon as you can offer more than what they have again.  It's more about what works best for them than anything.  I hope that if your partner does try to come back that you are in a stable place where you can make great decisions.

[myself]

They do feel these things, but use us as scapegoats so they don't feel them as much. It's up to us to not take on those roles, whether in the relationships or out. It's a form of beating ourselves up if we carry that weight for them, leading to our own guilt and remorse. They need to face their stuff by themselves, but are too scared to, too wired not to. I encouraged my ex to find help, to improve her life, as gently as I could, being a real friend about it, but she refused. Too much in there. Too many chances for the whole house of cards to come crashing down. Too bad. Things could have been better for her if she tried. Not just for her, but the r/s. Any relationship. Which adds to her guilt, shame, remorse. The cycle continues, the pain multiplies. Without change, you're stuck.

[BorisAcusio]

Which adds to her guilt, shame, remorse.

Borderline is a shame based disorder. Their impared or non-existent sense of empathy make them unable to feel real guilt or remorse.

A great post from GreenMango

GreenMango:

Well SBS,

The way I interpreted the whole guilt vs. shame was:

Guilt implies someone has empathy.  It's an understanding of doing something wrong and knowing it.  If a person feels true guilt they recognize when they transgress against another hurting another person and the effects.  

Shame implies embarrassment for self and the focus is inward.  Embarrassment or a revealing of lacking in a certain area.

People with BPD struggle with maintaining a consistent level of empathy.  It can fluctuate wildly from severely impaired to somewhat normal depending on the emotional state of the person.  

People with BPD can also struggle with shame... . shameful feelings can bring up all kinds of self-loathing.

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201201/shame-is-the-root-narcissistic-borderline-personality-disorders

[GreenMango]

Converse

Your situation is a very emotional one.  You have kids and financial aspects with her that are going to cause real stress.  Add you children's welfare into it and it's even tougher.

You've mentioned the therapy sessions getting pretty ugly especially when the therapist pointed out her need to pathologize you.  I think this situation goes beyond wondering about if people with BPD feel remorse or guilt.

It sounds like she feels the relationship is too dysfunctional to stay in and the root of it is on you.  Whether it is true or not isn't as important as trying to get yourself and your kids some stability.  The wait a year option may not be realistic for you especially if she's not willingly to work on her part.

Part of detaching, once you've come to decision that you dont want to be in the relationship anymore or its not going to work out, is working through a process.  It can be a hard one sometimes the grief and other emotions can be overwhelming.

Part of the step (over on the right margin----> talk about taking a look at the clinical aspects of the disorder to understand what you've been thru.  Have you checked those out?

One of the clinical aspects of the disorder is polarized thinking.  Black and white feelings about things and volatile emotional responses.  Her shutting down like this and blaming 100% problems on you can be a sign of this.  People with BPD can have limited coping skills and the emotional dysregulation leaves little ways for the person to handle things... . Sometimes it's leaving abruptly.  This is very hard on others, like partners and children.

I'd encourage you to post on the legal board about the mortgage issue and run by some options with other members.  Getting some answers or direction could help.

With your children it may be time to have the conversation about her not coming home.  It will be a difficult one.  Did she want to say goodbye to the kids?