8 months of family court and ex is never happy with child support

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm Canadian and the terms will be different than American law (the frustrations with court and PD will be the same though   ) but this is a little background:

I went to Family Justices Services last June 2013 to start a parenting order in court. I didn't have the funds to get a retainer for a lawyer, so I went with legal-aid and managed to get a lawyer appointed (3 month wait) after an appeal because I made too much money annually. The ex had left me in a monetary position that I could not defend myself before she left and I was maxed out on credit and could not borrow any money. I have an L now, but I don't feel confident with him and he's not experienced with BPD and I feel like I don't have any other choice but to use him. The alternative would be pro se.

Now 8 months have passed in family court and most of it is adjournments on child support, and my ex changing her mind and wanting more child support.

Today was another court date and I thought that child support would finally get settled in regards to shared parenting, but my wife is now reporting that she is making less than what she had declared and that I was 2000 more than what they had calculated.

So court has been adjourned again until March 17th on child support. I didn't go myself and I had called the lawyer and asked if I had to be present for this and I regret that I didn't go. I've made every appearance since July and I'm afraid that she may of influenced him a little bit with playing the victim. Our income is wildly different, but she gets a nice amount from the government for child tax, my child support, possibly the paramour's income, (although he has moved some things into her house, they live at each others houses, they practically live together and do things as a family but it's not viewed as common-law) that and gets subsidies.

Before she left in January 2013 she said  I wouldn't have to pay child support but that we would both be paying for the kids needs, clothes, activities, etc... .   She split me black, moved out and then said that I couldn't see the kids and that she wanted $600 a month for child support. Fine, I have to pay for child support, it's the kids needs. The following month she wanted $700, the month after that she wanted $800. By the third month she wanted the government standard for my wages and wanted the full approx 1000 + a month.

I managed to get it lowered with shared custody, but I have costs when the kids are with me and she is not agreeing to what the judge ordered last month for child support and wants more.

I'm frustrated that the divorce is not moving forward and it feels like whatever monthly sum of money for the kids keeps changing. My L wanted it lowered and she wouldn't budge and now she is reporting that she is making less than reported. I'm afraid that she may change her mind again and drag this out even further with money. He had suggested if it's too expensive with shared custody to go back to every second weekend and I said that is not an option. I mentioned what my SD15 was going through to him tonight and hopefully he would understand the unhealthy context with living with the ex means.

My ex is not telling me about my estranged SD15, but she has made two suicide attempts (my kids were with me both times) in the last month and she is currently staying at her grandmother's because social services doesn't want her to be with mom right now or her aunts because her aunt lives in the same city. So she was shipped to her grandmother's for now which lives 6 hours away. I'm getting the information from SD15's step-mom and it enforces my belief on how sick my ex is and why it's important for my kids (S2,S6,D8) to be with me at least half of the time to possibly deter them from going down the same path.

I feel like I'm not asking for enough and that I should try to fight for full custody, but I don't know what my chances are with this. I'm not confident that L understands that my ex is mentally ill and I can't fire him and look for another.  I see shared custody as a battle that I have mostly won, and I could try to go for full custody in the future. I understand that as the kids needs change, there will be more court and I'm still a newbie at this compared to what some other people may have gone through but I'm just sick of months of adjournments because of child support.

We haven't even started divorce court yet and I feel like I'm alone in this fighting for my kids rights to have a healthy r/s with their father. I'm up to my eyeballs with marital debt and I'm going into credit counseling this month to see what my alternatives are to bankruptcy. My ex feels entitled and threw the failed marriage and debts attached on me, walked away with the paramour and she's put me in an extremely difficult financial position, and I'm clawing to fight for the kids. I thought that I had gone through the worse of it, but it just seems to get worse, however possible that is.  

This is mostly me venting out my frustrations, it's the litigation that's been a lot worse than her leaving me. Never did I think a stay at home mom with no job or money would get this far and turn the tables. I think she would be happy to see me living in a box and even happier to take that box away. It scares me what she is doing to her children's dad and the lack of not seeing the collateral damage that has been done.

[Mutt]

I'm Canadian and the terms will be different than American law (the frustrations with court and PD will be the same though   ) but this is a little background:

I went to Family Justices Services last June 2013 to start a parenting order in court. I didn't have the funds to get a retainer for a lawyer, so I went with legal-aid and managed to get a lawyer appointed (3 month wait) after an appeal because I made too much money annually. The ex had left me in a monetary position that I could not defend myself before she left and I was maxed out on credit and could not borrow any money. I have an L now, but I don't feel confident with him and he's not experienced with BPD and I feel like I don't have any other choice but to use him. The alternative would be pro se.

Now 8 months have passed in family court and most of it is adjournments on child support, and my ex changing her mind and wanting more child support.

Today was another court date and I thought that child support would finally get settled in regards to shared parenting, but my wife is now reporting that she is making less than what she had declared and that I was 2000 more than what they had calculated.

So court has been adjourned again until March 17th on child support. I didn't go myself and I had called the lawyer and asked if I had to be present for this and I regret that I didn't go. I've made every appearance since July and I'm afraid that she may of influenced him a little bit with playing the victim. Our income is wildly different, but she gets a nice amount from the government for child tax, my child support, possibly the paramour's income, (although he has moved some things into her house, they live at each others houses, they practically live together and do things as a family but it's not viewed as common-law) that and gets subsidies.

Before she left in January 2013 she said  I wouldn't have to pay child support but that we would both be paying for the kids needs, clothes, activities, etc... .   She split me black, moved out and then said that I couldn't see the kids and that she wanted $600 a month for child support. Fine, I have to pay for child support, it's the kids needs. The following month she wanted $700, the month after that she wanted $800. By the third month she wanted the government standard for my wages and wanted the full approx 1000 + a month.

I managed to get it lowered with shared custody, but I have costs when the kids are with me and she is not agreeing to what the judge ordered last month for child support and wants more.

I'm frustrated that the divorce is not moving forward and it feels like whatever monthly sum of money for the kids keeps changing. My L wanted it lowered and she wouldn't budge and now she is reporting that she is making less than reported. I'm afraid that she may change her mind again and drag this out even further with money. He had suggested if it's too expensive with shared custody to go back to every second weekend and I said that is not an option. I mentioned what my SD15 was going through to him tonight and hopefully he would understand the unhealthy context with living with the ex means.

My ex is not telling me about my estranged SD15, but she has made two suicide attempts (my kids were with me both times) in the last month and she is currently staying at her grandmother's because social services doesn't want her to be with mom right now or her aunts because her aunt lives in the same city. So she was shipped to her grandmother's for now which lives 6 hours away. I'm getting the information from SD15's step-mom and it enforces my belief on how sick my ex is and why it's important for my kids (S2,S6,D8) to be with me at least half of the time to possibly deter them from going down the same path.

I feel like I'm not asking for enough and that I should try to fight for full custody, but I don't know what my chances are with this. I'm not confident that L understands that my ex is mentally ill and I can't fire him and look for another.  I see shared custody as a battle that I have mostly won, and I could try to go for full custody in the future. I understand that as the kids needs change, there will be more court and I'm still a newbie at this compared to what some other people may have gone through but I'm just sick of months of adjournments because of child support.

We haven't even started divorce court yet and I feel like I'm alone in this fighting for my kids rights to have a healthy r/s with their father. I'm up to my eyeballs with marital debt and I'm going into credit counseling this month to see what my alternatives are to bankruptcy. My ex feels entitled and threw the failed marriage and debts attached on me, walked away with the paramour and she's put me in an extremely difficult financial position, and I'm clawing to fight for the kids. I thought that I had gone through the worse of it, but it just seems to get worse, however possible that is.  

This is mostly me venting out my frustrations, it's the litigation that's been a lot worse than her leaving me. Never did I think a stay at home mom with no job or money would get this far and turn the tables. I think she would be happy to see me living in a box and even happier to take that box away. It scares me what she is doing to her children's dad and the lack of not seeing the collateral damage that has been done.

[Matt]

I'm not a lawyer, and nobody here can give you legal advice - just our ideas from our own experiences.  Plus differences from place to place - US vs. Canada etc.

Still, here are some thoughts which I hope might be helpful:

* Your lawyer... . Even though you didn't pay a big retainer, she is still your "employee", and you are the boss, and you'll have to live with the results of the case - not her.  Do as much research as you can on your own, and ask her lots of questions to understand what she proposes to do.  Make sure she takes no actions without your approval first - ask every question you can, to satisfy yourself that it's the right thing to do.  If she ever takes a step you believe is wrong, tell that to the judge - "Your Honor, Ms. Attorney has filed this motion without consulting me.  I would like to withdraw it so she and I can meet and decide what to do."  The judge will be angry, and the attorney will be (and should be) embarrassed... . but she won't do that again.  And if she quits, and you have to get a new attorney, that's OK - you don't want an attorney who acts without your approval, especially if she has no experience in a case like this.

* Read "Splitting" by William A. Eddy - an attorney who focuses on cases where one party has BPD or NPD (narcissistic personality disorder).  His methods are different from those used by most attorneys, who deal with "normal" cases.

* Child support - quit focusing on what your wife wants and find out what the law and customs where you live say you should pay.  In most US states, there are published guidelines - like a worksheet to calculate what CS should be.  The guidelines aren't absolute - the court decides - but unless there are unusual circumstances the court usually bases its decisions on the guidelines.  If your province has nothing like that, ask your attorney how the courts usually decide things - if she doesn't know have her find someone who does know.  Then work out a proposal based on those guidelines, and stick to it - tell the other side, "I will agree to pay $X a month, based on the guidelines, or if that's not OK, we'll let the court decide."  Any arguments she makes for more, refer back to the guidelines and say, "That is not how the guidelines say to calculate CS - look at paragraph 6 - it says to do the calculation like I did it."  Just stick to that and don't accept any of her excuses to want more.

* Do not think of CS as something that goes to the kids.  That's not what it is.  It's money you pay to the other party and she spends it on whatever she wants - just like alimony.  If the kids are with you half the time, and you don't make a lot more money than the other party, maybe you shouldn't pay any CS at all.  Or maybe she should pay you.  Don't fall into the trap of thinking that paying CS is the "right" thing to do - it's just money one party pays to the other - has nothing at all to do with the kids.

* Make sure the parenting plan gets settled before spending any time on CS.  You can't figure out CS til you know where the kids will live - how much time with you and how much with their mom.  Work that out first - make sure it's 100% settled - and then calculated CS using the guidelines.  Don't argue about CS, just calculate it using the guidelines, and if she doesn't agree, let the court decide.

* When the judge issues an order, and the other party doesn't like it, don't argue or negotiate about it - the judge's order is the judge's order.  Her dispute is with the judge, not you.  Pay what the judge says to pay, not a penny more - it won't be appreciated but it will be taken as a precedent to demand more in the future.  Pay what the judge says and do not discuss it with the other party.  If she sends an e-mail saying, "I need more CS because... . ", don't respond in any way.  Just copy that e-mail to your attorney for her records, but let her know that you won't respond and she (attorney) shouldn't respond either.  Your ex must learn that demanding more money won't work - you will pay what the court says and no more.

* If there is some emergency requiring more money for the child - like a medical problem - then you can decide what to do about that at the time.  But if you decide, "The accident happened when the child was with her, but I think it's right to pay half the medical cost.", then pay it directly to the doctor, hospital, etc. - not to the other party.  Never pay the other party a penny except what the court ordered;  always pay other things directly not through your ex.

* Going for full custody is probably the right thing to do, even if your chances aren't good.  Affording the right attorney is a big problem;  you may have to rely on your attorney only for procedural things, and learn about the strategic stuff yourself.  For example, you might want to file a motion for full custody, and in the motion ask the court to appoint a Custody Evaluator - a psychologist who will administer objective psych evals to both parents.  This is one way to get the other party's psychological problems onto the table for the court to see.  There are costs - mine cost $5,000 US for the CE, plus $500 each for the psych evals - but it may be the only way to get key information on the record so the court can take both parents' psychological health into account.

* If you go for full custody, and if that drives up your costs - which it probably will - you might be able to afford it by letting it take some time.  We all want our cases decided soon, but if you can figure out the likely total cost - mine was probably about $50,000US but sometimes it costs much more or much less depending on many factors - if you can make an estimate, and then estimate how long it might take, and maybe even do some things with your attorney that make it take longer, you might be able to afford it by spreading the cost over time.

* Keep in mind that if the other party does things which add to the cost - for example, if she demands more money than the court ordered, and you have to go back to court to have the same exact thing decided again - you can probably ask the court to award you legal costs, so the other party has to reimburse you for the money you're wasting on issues already decided.  You'll have to file a motion asking for that, and even include the cost of filing that motion - make a list of all the costs you are incurring as the result of the other party's misbehavior - time lost from work for example - anything you can think of that you have to pay as the result of the other party's inappropriate behavior - and put that into the motion, along with words like, "Plus any other costs which may be incurred as the result of Ms. Mutt's failure to accept the court's order."  Keep filing these motions any time the other side does something that adds to your legal costs but adds nothing to the process.

[ForeverDad]

There's no doubt there's some truth to the concept that men are expected to leaving the parenting to the mother and restart a life and family elsewhere, of course leaving their wallet behind as well.

A century ago, it wasn't that way, fathers were the head of the family and that was that.  That extreme was traded for another extreme, the Tender Years doctrine where mothers were considered the nurturers.  That extreme didn't work either, that's why we often see something in between.

But when seeking additional time - which might reduce child support - don't ever give the impression you want more time so your child support is less.  That would imply you're concerned more about the money over the kids and that impression could sabotage your case.

[Mutt]

But when seeking additional time - which might reduce child support - don't ever give the impression you want more time so your child support is less.  That would imply you're concerned more about the money over the kids and that impression could sabotage your case.

I'm going to begin with addressing this. I agree ForeverDad and thank you for pointing that out.

I haven't read Bill Eddy's book yet and I'll do that ASAP and do as much research as I can on my own. I wasn't assertive with my L and I didn't feel comfortable with settling for shared custody in the first place. I did ask for full custody and I let him talk me out of it. I feel comfortable with learning about the strategic stuff myself and rely on the L for the procedural stuff. I wish that I had the budget or financial means, but it is what it is atm. I'll make the best of what I currently have and I'll do the heavy lifting and approach this in the context of someone that is a PD and not paint by numbers custody and divorce.

* If you go for full custody, and if that drives up your costs - which it probably will - you might be able to afford it by letting it take some time.  We all want our cases decided soon, but if you can figure out the likely total cost - mine was probably about $50,000US but sometimes it costs much more or much less depending on many factors - if you can make an estimate, and then estimate how long it might take, and maybe even do some things with your attorney that make it take longer, you might be able to afford it by spreading the cost over time.

I'm comfortable with this and re-framing my approach as not having to rush through this and stretching things out for monetary reasons.

I agree with the parenting order. I have an interim order and it's not permanent. It's supposed to be revised in May and I will talk to the L and get that settled first and stop the bickering with the CS. Pay to what the Provincial table is and not a cent more.

I'd like to thank both of you gents with sharing your experiences. I had a nagging feeling since I got this L when we didn't try with full custody and pushing for shared custody. I'm glad that I came in here and vented. I felt frustration with my L because I felt like I wasn't getting what I needed and he doesn't understand BPD. As you say I'm the boss. I like all of the suggestions and I'm going to change course and take charge with the L. It's all logical and practical advise and a useful template. I feel more confident after posting here.

Thank you both again and I'm truly truly grateful. You are both amazing with your sage advice in a difficult period in someone's life.   

[Matt]

When your situation is more stable I'm sure you'll help others here just like the help you're getting!