A meta-metaphysical consideration

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Sometimes on these boards, many of us have asked ":)o you think perhaps it is I who have BPD?  Perhaps my partner was right about all the hurtful/critical things he/she said to me?"  Often the response is "If you are self-aware enough to be contemplating it and fretting about whether or not you are BPD, the you are not BPD.  You are introspecting and trying to understand and, therefore, not BPD."

But... .

What if that introspection is just mirroring?  Just acting?  Just following a script?  Couldn't a BPD person genuinely fool him/herself into expressing self-examination with sincere hopes of changing bad behaviors, being empathetic, etc?  Couldn't a waif-type be saying "I miss him so much.  He was my life.  He suddenly left me.  He was always so hot and cold but I was so happy with him during the good times.  Sometimes, I wonder if it was I who was the problem.  But I did everything I could to make him happy.  I am so empty without him now, but I know I must remain NC.  If he makes a huge effort and offers to go to therapy, maybe we could work out."?


-----

I don't ask this question merely for intellectual debate, but I again began wondering about the strange ways I feel I relate to people sometimes, and looking at my reactions as well. 

For example, I recently reconnected with an old dBPD-ex (not the same one that prompted me to join this site).  We had "dates" as friends (of course there is still attraction and we even had sex once, but neither of us wants a relationship again) for about 3 weeks in a row.  I am rarely serious when I hang out with her.  I never really have been.  I am frequently a jokester or whatever you want to call it when I'm around people I know well.  We both do it when around each other.  For example, we are from geographically opposite regions, so we both say certain words with a very different accent/dialect.  We mock the other when one of those words comes up and we do it in an exaggerated manner -- then chuckle and move on.  Well, one day she called me and I did this when she said hello and she told me I was mean and never know when to let up and maybe we shouldn't meet up for lunch as planned.  I got angry for not understanding why it was suddenly unacceptable to play around.  I told her she says things that in a different context would be downright mean things to me and I usually overlook them and don't take them personally.  I got angry back at what I thought was a ridiculous reaction on her part (yeah, I know I didn't validate or consider she was having a bad day or PMS or whatever).  So I told her to forget the lunch and hung up because in my gut I felt like I was getting sucked into BPD-land.  She sent me a couple texts saying something like: "Even as friends we cannot even get along.  We just don't mesh as human beings in general.  It's so sad."  I ignored the messages and didn't look back.

I felt like I could see the BPD behavior kicking in from all that I have learned and discussed here.  With my new BPD knowledge, I did not try to apologize for something I did not consider wrong and get entangled in a dramatic debate.

Yet, I wondered of myself afterward... .

Was it BPD-like of me to just disengage?  Should I have apologized for upsetting her (despite it being something that was always interpreted as playful before)?

It was nice hanging out with her prior to that conversation.  She went to some month-long DBT class prior to our hanging out and said she had learned many tools for how to interact.  I could tell the difference.  We were getting along just fine up until that point of the phone call. 

Perhaps I need to learn the "tools" if I want to hang out with her.  But I guess it's not really worth the effort to me. 

After my last relationship (more recent ex), my level of engagement with people is much more shallow or guarded.  Less disclosure, less empathy, less generosity, less tolerance, less helping behavior, less relating... .

If someone seems burdensome or problematic to me, I disengage or throw up a boundary pretty quickly.

In other words, if something seems like BS or shyster-like, I start walking the other way.

Maybe I've gotten healthier.  Or maybe more like a BPD.  Or maybe some BPD traits are simply healthier.  I mean, hell, look how fast my ex (the recent ex) moved on.  Two years later I still miss her.  I am probably not even a distant memory to her; I, on the other hand, sometimes still check my blocked texts to see if maybe there's one from her.  My head still turns when I see a car like hers.  Sometimes it is her.

Was she my narcissistic supply?  Sexy, beautiful, sometimes great sex.  Or did I really love her?  Sometimes all I remember is her looks and the sex we had.  It's hard to remember any heartwarming moments anymore.  I know they happened -- I thought I had found the complete package -- giving, loyal, devoted, a good attitude -- I really (foolishly) believed that she was my soul mate and that we were the perfect match.  Did I idealize and devalue her like a BPD would?  It was pretty hard for me to leave her.  Yet all that remains in any my longing for her anymore is lustful stuff, and even that is sparse anymore lately.  Maybe there never really was any intimacy.  Maybe it was all an illusion. At 32 years old, I thought I had finally found the woman I had been holding out for.  Was I "looking for a person to soothe my core wounds" like a BPD?

I dunno much anymore.

[struggli]

Sometimes on these boards, many of us have asked ":)o you think perhaps it is I who have BPD?  Perhaps my partner was right about all the hurtful/critical things he/she said to me?"  Often the response is "If you are self-aware enough to be contemplating it and fretting about whether or not you are BPD, the you are not BPD.  You are introspecting and trying to understand and, therefore, not BPD."

But... .

What if that introspection is just mirroring?  Just acting?  Just following a script?  Couldn't a BPD person genuinely fool him/herself into expressing self-examination with sincere hopes of changing bad behaviors, being empathetic, etc?  Couldn't a waif-type be saying "I miss him so much.  He was my life.  He suddenly left me.  He was always so hot and cold but I was so happy with him during the good times.  Sometimes, I wonder if it was I who was the problem.  But I did everything I could to make him happy.  I am so empty without him now, but I know I must remain NC.  If he makes a huge effort and offers to go to therapy, maybe we could work out."?


-----

I don't ask this question merely for intellectual debate, but I again began wondering about the strange ways I feel I relate to people sometimes, and looking at my reactions as well. 

For example, I recently reconnected with an old dBPD-ex (not the same one that prompted me to join this site).  We had "dates" as friends (of course there is still attraction and we even had sex once, but neither of us wants a relationship again) for about 3 weeks in a row.  I am rarely serious when I hang out with her.  I never really have been.  I am frequently a jokester or whatever you want to call it when I'm around people I know well.  We both do it when around each other.  For example, we are from geographically opposite regions, so we both say certain words with a very different accent/dialect.  We mock the other when one of those words comes up and we do it in an exaggerated manner -- then chuckle and move on.  Well, one day she called me and I did this when she said hello and she told me I was mean and never know when to let up and maybe we shouldn't meet up for lunch as planned.  I got angry for not understanding why it was suddenly unacceptable to play around.  I told her she says things that in a different context would be downright mean things to me and I usually overlook them and don't take them personally.  I got angry back at what I thought was a ridiculous reaction on her part (yeah, I know I didn't validate or consider she was having a bad day or PMS or whatever).  So I told her to forget the lunch and hung up because in my gut I felt like I was getting sucked into BPD-land.  She sent me a couple texts saying something like: "Even as friends we cannot even get along.  We just don't mesh as human beings in general.  It's so sad."  I ignored the messages and didn't look back.

I felt like I could see the BPD behavior kicking in from all that I have learned and discussed here.  With my new BPD knowledge, I did not try to apologize for something I did not consider wrong and get entangled in a dramatic debate.

Yet, I wondered of myself afterward... .

Was it BPD-like of me to just disengage?  Should I have apologized for upsetting her (despite it being something that was always interpreted as playful before)?

It was nice hanging out with her prior to that conversation.  She went to some month-long DBT class prior to our hanging out and said she had learned many tools for how to interact.  I could tell the difference.  We were getting along just fine up until that point of the phone call. 

Perhaps I need to learn the "tools" if I want to hang out with her.  But I guess it's not really worth the effort to me. 

After my last relationship (more recent ex), my level of engagement with people is much more shallow or guarded.  Less disclosure, less empathy, less generosity, less tolerance, less helping behavior, less relating... .

If someone seems burdensome or problematic to me, I disengage or throw up a boundary pretty quickly.

In other words, if something seems like BS or shyster-like, I start walking the other way.

Maybe I've gotten healthier.  Or maybe more like a BPD.  Or maybe some BPD traits are simply healthier.  I mean, hell, look how fast my ex (the recent ex) moved on.  Two years later I still miss her.  I am probably not even a distant memory to her; I, on the other hand, sometimes still check my blocked texts to see if maybe there's one from her.  My head still turns when I see a car like hers.  Sometimes it is her.

Was she my narcissistic supply?  Sexy, beautiful, sometimes great sex.  Or did I really love her?  Sometimes all I remember is her looks and the sex we had.  It's hard to remember any heartwarming moments anymore.  I know they happened -- I thought I had found the complete package -- giving, loyal, devoted, a good attitude -- I really (foolishly) believed that she was my soul mate and that we were the perfect match.  Did I idealize and devalue her like a BPD would?  It was pretty hard for me to leave her.  Yet all that remains in any my longing for her anymore is lustful stuff, and even that is sparse anymore lately.  Maybe there never really was any intimacy.  Maybe it was all an illusion. At 32 years old, I thought I had finally found the woman I had been holding out for.  Was I "looking for a person to soothe my core wounds" like a BPD?

I dunno much anymore.

[fromheeltoheal]

I see where you're coming from struggli, and I'm positive I don't have borderline personality disorder, partly because a shrink told me, and partly because I know who I am consistently over time and situations, I don't want to kill myself, in fact I like life, I rage very rarely, and I have to be extremely pissed off to do it, I seldom lie, I don't cheat on women I'm supposedly in an exclusive, monogamous relationship with, I'm rarely impulsive, I dunno, I could go on.  Then again, we all exhibit traits that are ascribed to BPD once in a while, it's a continuum, although focusing on whether or not I have the disorder, or any disorder, doesn't do me any good; it's like researching some physical symptoms on the internet, and by the time you're done you're convinced you have 6 weeks to live.  Labels are for shrinks, I'm just living my life best I can.  If I'm really honest I do have some narcissistic traits, but so what, lately I'm tired of all the analysis, time to just live for a while.

What is radically different for me since the relationship ended is my absolute unwillingness to take any sht from anyone.  :)ecades of passive, people pleaser behavior has apparently come to an end, thanks borderline, and I've been a real ashole at times, realizing that passive aggressive is better than passive, active aggressive is better than that, and assertive is at the top; I dabble in them all lately, except passive, hopefully I'll never go there again.

My boundaries have been shockingly weak, and oh boy did she take advantage of that, but she's not the only one.  In the last year I've removed a whole lot of people who've treated me disrespectfully, easy, but building new relationships has been the challenge.  My take is there are two ways to get close to people: I've seen the share-check-share method, where I share something vulnerable or personal with someone and see what I'm getting, and if it's positive share again, but that's not my favorite way.  I prefer what I call blurt mode, where I blurt out my truth quickly, which gives someone an opportunity to judge me, give me unsolicited advice, not reciprocate, none of which are acceptable, and then I'm outta there.  So far so good, since the ones I consider worthy of my real truth tend to stick around and share theirs, which is really what life is all about.

Everything feels new and different now, and I wasn't very happy before I met her, so I welcome the change, although I'm in uncharted territory and I'm a little uneasy, still looking for my footing, but I do have the feeling I'm on the right path, so it's one foot in front of the other.

[Tausk]

Yes, we have our own issues.  If we didn't we wouldn't have ended up in the interaction.

And the behaviors of splitting, rationalization, triangulation... . are all on a spectrum that we can land on and move about on.

But, the emotional intensity and lack of self, and push/pull... . is clear in a pwBPD.  The easiest way to tell is if you can feel guilt and actual remorse for an transgression. 

Have you changed at all?  Did your ex change?

But we are sick puppies when we arrive at the board.  We seek out people at the same emotional level of maturity.  The only difference is that we can increase that level, they can't

[Surnia]

Hi struggli

I hear your doubts about the recent phone call with one ex and the fact that you are 2 years out and sometimes checking your blocked texts.

I would take it seriously - yes, like tausk said it, we have your own issues. And when we fall in love more than one time than with similar patterns, it could be time to look at it more closely. I think its not just: Do I have BPD or not, its more complex than that. It could be a step to reach out to a professional.

As an example from my side: I had 2 relationships with men with serious drinking issues and some with other drug issues.   I downplayed it quite a long time... . My unhappy marriage brought me to a T finally, which was a great step, I am grateful I did it.

[struggli]

fromheeltoheal:

Yes, I have grown tired of analyzing as well and have been away from the board for a little while because of that.  However, I have also been isolating myself to some degree and the recent feeling of reconnecting with someone and then watching that bridge burn away brought me back to the deep thoughts and ruminating.

I've also gotten to the point of not taking sht from anyone as you say.  In fact, I was usually pretty good about it in the workplace or in business-type situations, but never with SOs.  My most recent ex called me a "softy" when I told her I wanted to be equal and didn't want a power struggle in the relationship.  When I treated her like a child at the beginning, the relationship was balanced.  But I couldn't sustain that role as an authoritarian type father figure.  And by wanting to be equal, I unknowingly let her take over.  Apparently she needed someone who would sternly state boundaries.  But that's just NOT how I want to be with anyone with whom I am in a relationship.

I'm still "recovering" from cognitive dissonance over how I always believed you don't lie or fck over someone you have an intimate bond with and thinking that respect is automatically granted to one another.  No one is on a pedestal anymore and I don't think anyone ever will be, except me. 

Tausk:

When I look back on the relationship, I was a naive kid who got sold snake oil.  I thought I had this thing too good to be true, but not quite, even though in my gut I knew something was awry.  I wanted to believe though.

So I think I have changed, learned, grown, matured, etc.   As for my ex, I don't know.  I guess I don't really care anymore.

Surnia:

I did go to a T for about 1.5 years during the later stages of the recent ex and after the breakup.  My work schedule ended up making it so impractical and stressful to make an appointment that I could no longer go. 

Don't worry about me falling in love and repeating the pattern.  My radar is on all the time now.

[fromheeltoheal]

My most recent ex called me a "softy" when I told her I wanted to be equal and didn't want a power struggle in the relationship.  When I treated her like a child at the beginning, the relationship was balanced.  But I couldn't sustain that role as an authoritarian type father figure.  And by wanting to be equal, I unknowingly let her take over.  Apparently she needed someone who would sternly state boundaries.  But that's just NOT how I want to be with anyone with whom I am in a relationship.

Thanks for the validation struggli; that's exactly what happened with us, but in the opposite order.  The mirroring really pulled a bait and switch on me, and in my naivety and hope I bought into it bigtime.  I treated her as an equal to begin with partly because I wanted a partnership with an equal and partly because she presented herself as one.  And then the acting out started, and I found out by trial and error that if I treated her like a child and reprimanded her, it worked and she responded, just like a 3 year old.  3 year olds who look 45 and screw like rabbits; that will screw with your head.

Lessons: don't ignore my gut feel, which was screaming at me, stay present and connected, notice what you're getting, share important personal things with a focus on the response, take it slowly.

[dontknow2]

Hi struggle,

Sometimes on these boards, many of us have asked ":)o you think perhaps it is I who have BPD?  Perhaps my partner was right about all the hurtful/critical things he/she said to me?"  Often the response is "If you are self-aware enough to be contemplating it and fretting about whether or not you are BPD, the you are not BPD.  You are introspecting and trying to understand and, therefore, not BPD."

But... .

What if that introspection is just mirroring?  Just acting?  Just following a script?  Couldn't a BPD person genuinely fool him/herself into expressing self-examination with sincere hopes of changing bad behaviors, being empathetic, etc?  Couldn't a waif-type be saying "I miss him so much.  He was my life.  He suddenly left me.  He was always so hot and cold but I was so happy with him during the good times.  Sometimes, I wonder if it was I who was the problem.  But I did everything I could to make him happy.  I am so empty without him now, but I know I must remain NC.  If he makes a huge effort and offers to go to therapy, maybe we could work out."?

Absolutely, I think a pwBPD could fool him/herself ~ maybe the best at it. There are other disorders which could be at play too though. Shoot, I created an entire false persona and knew it as the truth. I was told by my therapist I do not have BPD.

Frankly, I think everyone fakes themselves out to some degree. Some of it is unhealthy. Yet, I've read psychologists recommendations to fake a thought/behavior as a way to retrain the unconscious. I use this fake out tool when certain unhealthy thoughts/behaviors are especially sticky (it's super glue instead of elmers). I don't like to use this tool for long though because of my fear to fall in my old traps.

My radar for incongruence within myself (regardless of mental illness or not) for starters is to... . listen for ALL or NOTHING statements like "I did EVERYTHING I could to make him happy", my actions not adding up to the same priorities in my head, and suppressing emotions (i.e. feel strong anger and just squash it or don't really know why it is to that degree).

Your questions are great to ensure boundaries are catching all the tricks 

[struggli]

fromheeltoheal,

Yes, it is one of those things I struggled with for a while and still think about to a degree.  Is it a flaw of mine for failing to maintain a dominant role in the relationship, i.e. ceasing to treat her like a child?  I mean, seriously, a couple times I'd sternly tell her to go to her room and wait.  She'd say "Yes sir" and go.  I'd wave a finger in front of her face and lecture her with a menacing tone.  And she'd listen with full attention.  But once I started thinking "Well, we've already been over this, there's no need for me to explain it again and continue talking to her like that",  then I gave up control and she took over.  Perhaps that is what is meant by "high maintenance."

So now my perceptions of a relationship have changed, but perhaps I shouldn't be using that relationship as a standard for future relationships.  Nevertheless, that's what has happened to my schema.  My new thinking is that I must be very assertive, vigilant, etc in order to maintain harmony.  Basically, I cannot trust a woman anymore because I will either have to be constantly managing the relationship or else I will lose my stake in that relationship and get sht all over.  Because I don't want to engage in that policing of my potential partner, I have just given up on relationships.  Maybe that makes me not a very attractive male partner, but I've accepted that romantic relationships are over.  I don't have the energy to be a father figure.  

[struggli]

dontknow2,

Yes, I perhaps did fall into some distorted thinking as well with my ex-- I did do some less than noble things while in the relationship. 

And I do understand the "fake it til you make it" to get out of a slump, but, you are right, it can be dangerous and make one fall into a state of delusion.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes, it is one of those things I struggled with for a while and still think about to a degree.  Is it a flaw of mine for failing to maintain a dominant role in the relationship, i.e. ceasing to treat her like a child?  I mean, seriously, a couple times I'd sternly tell her to go to her room and wait.  She'd say "Yes sir" and go.  I'd wave a finger in front of her face and lecture her with a menacing tone.  And she'd listen with full attention.  But once I started thinking "Well, we've already been over this, there's no need for me to explain it again and continue talking to her like that",  then I gave up control and she took over.  Perhaps that is what is meant by "high maintenance."

No, it's not a flaw, in a healthy relationship anyway.  All relationships include a little power struggle, but the healthy ones that last eventually start to focus on collaboration instead of competition.

I think the "terrible twos" is a better label than "high maintenance."

So now my perceptions of a relationship have changed, but perhaps I shouldn't be using that relationship as a standard for future relationships. Nevertheless, that's what has happened to my schema.  My new thinking is that I must be very assertive, vigilant, etc in order to maintain harmony.  Basically, I cannot trust a woman anymore because I will either have to be constantly managing the relationship or else I will lose my stake in that relationship and get sht all over.  Because I don't want to engage in that policing of my potential partner, I have just given up on relationships.  Maybe that makes me not a very attractive male partner, but I've accepted that romantic relationships are over.  I don't have the energy to be a father figure.  

Hell no!  A relationship with a borderline is the standard for a relationship where we get up and walk away at the first sign of bullsht.  It is still shocking to me the amount of crap I put up with, and I choose to believe I needed to go through that so I could get a clue about what a healthy relationship is, by experiencing the pain of what it isn't, and learning to focus on boundaries, for once.  I needed to go through that before the universe would put the girl of my dreams in my life, and we'll both benefit from it.  :)eluded?  I say no.

We can be men in relationships without being father figures, but we need to choose women instead of emotional little girls.

[Surnia]

We can be men in relationships without being father figures, but we need to choose women instead of emotional little girls.

Great realization, putted in a nutshell!