i have an opinion about weeping

[maxen]

actually not about weeping, but about what appears to me to be other people's presumptions about other people's attitudes to weeping.

often a poster will come onto the boards and tell about the pain they're in and mention that they've been crying. soon enough another poster will come along and, trying to be comforting, assure the first poster that it's okay to cry. but the first poster never said he or she thought it wasn't okay, or that he or she is embarrassed about it. so why this almost, it seems to me, reflexive response?

my parents are from The Old Country, a place known for its sentimental men and hard women. my father cried naturally, not alot but appropriately. my mother, and all her sisters, were callous to the point of emotional arrest. i never thought much about my father's weeping, i just thought he was a man of feeling, and i admired that. he even wept in the face of my mother's nastiness about it. i admired that even more. after my d-day i collapsed and bawled on a daily basis for a long time. i still do occasionally. i'd have to be a statue if i didn't.

so maybe it's just me, coming from where i come from (FOO, but also religiously: www.avowofconversation.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/the-gift-of-tears/) to think weeping is natural and even unremarkable. or maybe i've misread the situation and everyone thinks this too?

your reflections on tears and social attitudes about them please.

[fromheeltoheal]

My experience is stopping any emotion is not good, and letting them flow is as it should be and healthier.  Plus, if we stop or suppress one emotion we suppress them all; they don't go away, they just come out somewhere else.

And then there are the social norms about what is acceptable in public and in private.  What always bugs me is someone is crying and someone else will say "there, there dear, don't cry, it's OK".  Well, maybe it isn't OK and we need to cry; if it's appropriate, cry.  I think part of that is someone not doing well reminds folks of some of their sadness, sadness they've been working hard to repress, and the crier needs to stop!  Too familiar.  And then of course there's a desire to help and alleviate someone's pain, although usually getting it out is the best way to let it go.

I say screw it.  Sure, follow the social norms when out in the world, but also surround ourselves with people who let us be in all of our emotions all the way, accept us for who we are good and bad, support us when we're going through something.  Otherwise they need to be out of our lives.

[Turkish]

  Sure, follow the social norms when out in the world, but also surround ourselves with people who let us be in all of our emotions all the way, accept us for who we are good and bad, support us when we're going through something.  Otherwise they need to be out of our lives.

And does this apply to our pwBPD as well? Because if so, then I suspect a lot of us on this board failed, including me.

[fromheeltoheal]

In my case my borderline was hopefully the last in a long string of failures, of accepting unacceptable crap from people I shouldn't have been maintaining relationships with, and it was ultimately a victory.  My ex pushed it WAY too far, it's still shocking to me how much I put up with, and it ended up being the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.  I've been out of the relationship for about a year and a half, and since then I've completely run out of tolerance with people, not taking sht from anyone anymore, and it feels great.  I still stumble, still finding my way, but I'm finally asserting myself and standing up for myself in ways that were a very long time coming.  I have her to thank for that, someone who busted through all boundaries and was completely disrespectful in the end finally pushed me over a line I'd been bouncing against for decades.  I found my anger.  I've just learned recently that depression and anger go hand in hand, and that was part of it, but it's more than that, finally a courage to speak my truth regardless.

There's passive, passive aggressive, active aggressive, and assertive.  I've done passive and passive aggressive well my whole life, those feel like home to me, but lately I've found active aggressive, not as good as assertive but it feels a whole lot better than passive and stuffing everything.  I'm alienating a lot of people lately, most of whom needed to be alienated, and maybe I've gone too far at times, but one way to find the line is by crossing it.  I dunno, it's a process, it feels right, and the other side is I've been able to develop real, meaningful relationships with people too, superficiality is dead, and I feel like for once I'm living true to myself, the ultimate borderline gift.

[Turkish]

I've just learned recently that depression and anger go hand in hand,

That is interesting... . what do you mean by that?

[fromheeltoheal]

I've just learned recently that depression and anger go hand in hand,

That is interesting... . what do you mean by that?

I'm reading Masterson's book The Search for the Real Self, and in it he describes something that rings true for me.  Using my ex as an example, at first I was depressed over all the things that 'had been done to me', then I got angry in a 'how could she' kind of way, then eventually that anger got redirected to what I was really angry about, me putting up with it in the first place, I stopped projecting it on her, then digging to see why I did, discovering it's beliefs I've had about myself forever, then getting depressed about that, then getting angry at everyone and everything, some of it projection, some of it appropriate, then coming back to myself and facing the real truths.  Roundy round it goes, the anger and depression linked.  That was a quickie explanation and maybe confusing, but all of it serves to get me to know myself better, heal and grow, painful as hell at times, but I ended up in that relationship for a reason, and apparently it was time for me to learn these lessons.

[letmeout]

That is very interesting. I was one who stuffed my emotions because I had to in order to survive my childhood and my marriage. I learned that having emotions was something that you got punished for.

It even took my T a couple of years to get me to feel my anger enough to leave my abusive BPD husband.

I still have a hard time trying to cry, but maybe its because I am feel so relieved and happy that I now live in peace and tranquility?

[dontknow2]

maxen,

Thanks for asking this question and raise awareness to this! 

As far as social norms, I've heard men at work point out girls and say "she is a crier" as a criticism. My xBPDh tells me regularly I am psychotic and need professional help because I cry "so much". There was a time where I thought something was wrong with me too. This was partly driven by certain emotions being 'bad' in my FOO too.

From a practical perspective, crying can become problematic... . puffy eyes, runny nose, etc... Sometimes, deep crying/weeping takes me out of commission impacting getting work done.

Especially for women trained not to 'get mad', there is a danger of crying becoming the default emotional response for both sad and mad. This happened to me.

Thankfully, I have come to love crying and am so grateful my body promotes it. It is a beautiful emotion and my favorite physical response to emotion... . WATER flowing through the organ of SIGHT. Very cool.

In regards to concerns on my volume... .

I now realize my crying is a matching ratio to the grief in my life. I no longer see the 'large' volume unreasonable considering.

In regards to managing the problems... .

I set aside time to cry when I need more than a situation allows. So, I cry in the shower, while driving, and before bed for the deeper ones.

In regards to masking anger responses with crying... .

I had to retrain myself and allow anger to represent itself differently. Funny, I do both now at the same time many times (i.e. when I am alone in the car, I will yell out what I am mad about and cry)... . old habits die hard.

In regards to crying at work... .

An executive just recently told me it is good to show my emotion like crying at work. So, people's perspective is starting to change thankfully. The key for me now is to learn how to stop crying when needed.

Thanks again maxen.

[Cloudy Days]

I am a crier, I've been told it's a bad thing to where I feel damaged because of it. I remember being a child and any time my Dad would yell at me I would cry instantly. My Dad was not abusive in any way so I never understood why I am such a crier. Now I embrace it, if my heart needs to weep then let it. I usually feel better afterwards.  My husband was raised by a mentally ill I assume BPD father and he was taught not to show emotion. Emotions are weakness when it comes to men. I wonder how different he would be if he was taught that crying was ok. Instead he was taught that you resolve things with your fists... . Thanks Father in Law.

I think when you are so stressed out and stretched to the max because of all the demands that one of these relationships put on you. You need to be able to cry, if you just got mad at things which is the alternative then you end up just like the person hurting you. I cry when I am mad too, I have screamed and screamed in my car, the only time I can do that type of thing and tears are always right along with it. It's very normal to cry, I think people who don't cry tend to be numb or just angry and I never want to be either.

[Clearmind]

Crying or weeping helps a person to self soothe - natural, normal and necessary.

It's a way to release upset and frustration. Those that are uncomfortable with it were told as kids to suck it up and stop crying - this is emotionally invalidating for a child.

It's a pity it has become taboo.

[Turkish]

Crying or weeping helps a person to self soothe - natural, normal and necessary.

It's a way to release upset and frustration. Those that are uncomfortable with it were told as kids to suck it up and stop crying - this is emotionally invalidating for a child.

It's a pity it has become taboo.

I confess that I try this a little too much on S4. Never having had a father, I feel the need to toughen him up like I toughened myself up. I watch myself with this now, and try to validate that it is ok. He is, however, overly emotional (like his mother). He literally cried when D1 spilled some milk about 6 months ago. I got mad at first (D1 wasn't crying, she is remarkably stoic... . could be a genetic thing she gets from me), but then got him some paper towels and we cleaned it up together.

I remember when I consciously made the decision to stop crying. I was maybe around 13 or 14. Sure, I could be moved by a movie scene, something from a book, or a piece of music. But crying, no. Perhaps it was because I was so sick of my mother's mental and physical abuse that I got sick of giving her the validation of seeing me react emotionally. When I was 17, I was in a horrific motorcycle accident. Sure, I was in shock, but with lacerated hands and my left kneecap exposed to the bone, in addition to a severed quad tendon they later told me, I pushed my downed bike 1/10 of a mile. Then walked another 2/10ths of a mile to knock on someone's door. It wasn't until 45 mins later when the people loaded me into their car to take me to the hospital (this was in a rural area), did I feel "safe" enough to cry from the pain. Maybe I was, and still am too hard on myself. We used to raise dogs for years, and they were all pets as well. I cried when the first few died, but after that, it was easy come, easy go. I didn't react emotionally. Perhaps a protection mechanism to not feel sadness. I didn't cry over a pet until 20 years later in my early 30s when I accidentally killed my pet rat, who was like a little cat in personality. I bawled like a baby that time, and I was ok with it. How much of this is genetic, how much is a reaction to childhood trauma, and how much is intellectually taking control of the emotional side, I don't know.

[Grey Kitty]

I've got another take on it... . probably because I just finished listening to one of Marshall Rosenberg's audiobooks on nonviolent communications.

Being told you shouldn't cry is completely invalidating and judgmental. And the lessons here have told us that that isn't a good way to interact with people.

However what people want isn't to receive the other kind of judgement--that it is good or OK to cry. That is still judgmental.

What works better is compassion and caring that someone is crying or caring enough to wonder what is up with them. Then not judging it as either good or bad.

[Turkish]

I've got another take on it... . probably because I just finished listening to one of Marshall Rosenberg's audiobooks on nonviolent communications.

Being told you shouldn't cry is completely invalidating and judgmental. And the lessons here have told us that that isn't a good way to interact with people.

However what people want isn't to receive the other kind of judgement--that it is good or OK to cry. That is still judgmental.

What works better is compassion and caring that someone is crying or caring enough to wonder what is up with them. Then not judging it as either good or bad.

That is good.  it could apply to anger as well,  perhaps.