UN Declaration of human rights. My boundaries?

[Depression = 72% of members]

The list below describes my rights as I understand them. They are taken from a few sources including the UN declaration of human rights. In my relationship with my uBPDw these boundaries have been exceeded by both of us. I recognize co-dependence in my behavior. Do I introduce them one by one? Do I introduce them all together? How do I introduce them so we are both protected?

Peace

Self determination and autonomy.

Security of personal effects

Truth

Justice and fairness.

Freedom from cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment

Right to dignity

Right to be treated kindly and with respect

Security from violence and or threats

Right to privacy.

I have the right to leave, if I am persecuted.

I have the right to freedom of opinion and expression

I have the right to uninterrupted rest and leisure.

Within a relationship I have the right to understanding, tolerance and friendship.

I have the right to effective remedy for violation of these rights

[Moselle]

The list below describes my rights as I understand them. They are taken from a few sources including the UN declaration of human rights. In my relationship with my uBPDw these boundaries have been exceeded by both of us. I recognize co-dependence in my behavior. Do I introduce them one by one? Do I introduce them all together? How do I introduce them so we are both protected?

Peace

Self determination and autonomy.

Security of personal effects

Truth

Justice and fairness.

Freedom from cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment

Right to dignity

Right to be treated kindly and with respect

Security from violence and or threats

Right to privacy.

I have the right to leave, if I am persecuted.

I have the right to freedom of opinion and expression

I have the right to uninterrupted rest and leisure.

Within a relationship I have the right to understanding, tolerance and friendship.

I have the right to effective remedy for violation of these rights

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[woodsposse]

Nice post and interesting questions.

My opinion - all of them.

Now, that is easier said than done - but... . all of them.  Why not.  You deserve to be treated in the best way possible with your s/o so why would any of them be left out.

I can't and won't say get out of the relationship.  That is certainly your call.  But... . the healing starts and ends with you, the protection of you starts and ends with you.  However and whatever that means for you ... . it still starts and ends with you.

I wish you the very best (and peace).

[Olinda]

I was just about to start a thread about putting boundaries into place... .

I read the workshops on Boundaries in the other forum.

I just texted my uBPD fiancee that I am doing a workshop on boundaries and have not figured it out yet but will probably be setting limits on things like what I will do when she yells, curses and slams the door.  

She texted back: 'I'm not comfortable with you having all the power".

I said: "I have all the power when it comes to my limits like you have all the power when it comes to your limits".

She said: I don't want to tolerate being invalidated or being emotionally abandoned, but it sounds like that's just tough hit.

I said: Give me a consequence for when I invalidate you or abandon you and then enforce it.

Fiance: "Me expressing hurt and disappointment hasn't seemed to change anything. What the hell else is going to matter? I don't have anything that seems valuable enough for you to have any impact on how things go between us."

I don't know how to reply. I feel this is a hook. How do I get into these discussions like this? Via text, no less. ARRRRRGGGH

[Olinda]

Sorry for the cursing.

I have a potty mouth and will try harder to watch it on posts. 

[woodsposse]

Wow.

Almost word for word I have had conversations just like that.

In the famous words of Admiral Ackbar "It's a trap!"

Trust me my friend - you will never ever win.

Since I'm new here as well, all I can say is please please please read other posts (and check out some of the links) to the right.  If you know this person is BPD... . you have to understand what you are dealing with before your communications make things worse for you.

I have been there.  I didn't even know I was there.  I thought I could handle everything because things made sense in my arguments and discussions.  And from my point of view, everything did and does make sense.

But they see the world totally different than we do.  it's like you are speaking two different languages (and that is because you are).  Everytime you try to say something which makes sense (especially making sense for you) - it gets turned around.

When it was stated "I am not comfortable with you having all the power"... . jeezus Christ - it is your life.  You are the only one who should have power and control over your life.  What she is basically saying is "give me all of you or else you are wrong for not doing it".

The rest of the 'argument' is circular - and it always will be circular.

It's a trap.  A very familiar trap - even one you may have grown use to - but it's a trap non-the-less.

The sooner you see it for what it is, the sooner you can actually start to heal.

[Olinda]

 

Such a trap, WOW.

So the next part of the conversation is her wanting me to acknowledge that "you have more power than I do because you don't need as much from me as I need from you". 

How does one gracefully get out of this? Can I ever expect her to admit it is a trap? That she is engaged in circular reasoning?

Do I just keep saying "I'm not discussing this right now" and move on?

We will never discuss anything because this is where it always leads... .

I am so frustrated. Can't wait to get in to see a therapist... . Hopefully this week.

[MissyM]

Olinda, congratulations on starting to set boundaries.  It is really tough with a BPD.  I would suggest you validate her feelings of powerlessness in the relationship.  Maybe someone can come along with a SET, I am not great at writing it out for someone else.

It sounds to me like you are asking her permission for you to set boundaries.  I don't think it is a good idea to start a conversation that is basically asking her input on boundaries.  I formulate boundaries with my therapist and then implement them with my dBPDh.  A boundary that I have had to set is that I will not discuss our relationship problems without a therapist present.  Of course my dBPDh became dysregulated and said that didn't sound like a marriage and he didn't ever get to be heard.  I validated his feelings on that and said that my boundary still stands.  He flew off the handle for the night and then came back down to a more regulated state this morning.  Expect push back when you set a boundary with a BPD, they want you to prove you mean it. 

[Olinda]

I like that boundary of not discussing relationship problems without a therapist present.

I know that she is testing... . and I know that i have a tendency to ask for permission to set a boundary or ask for approval for setting a boundary... .

I have so much work to do. 

thanks for replying

[an0ught]

Hi Olinda,

I don't know how to reply. I feel this is a hook. How do I get into these discussions like this? Via text, no less. ARRRRRGGGH

Validation is all about communication. This can be discussed and there are real benefits to be gained. The book "The high conflict couple" is focusing on validation and is written in a way that it can be shared and worked through together. Validation is win-win.

Boundaries is all about your behavior. It is about taking unilateral action when the other side is uncooperative. Discussing this is discussing scenarios for war - not a pleasant undertaking - tends to be invalidating. Not much to be gained as we are talking about situations in which she will not be able to cooperate. Boundaries divide things into parts and is more a win-loose negotiation. In some cases it is a good idea to inform about boundaries to avoid startling the other side and other situations it is best to just deal with problems when they arise.

A good question would be to look into yourself and understand what is driving you so much to get her approval for what you need to do... .

[woodsposse]

Such a trap, WOW.

So the next part of the conversation is her wanting me to acknowledge that "you have more power than I do because you don't need as much from me as I need from you". 

How does one gracefully get out of this? Can I ever expect her to admit it is a trap? That she is engaged in circular reasoning?

Do I just keep saying "I'm not discussing this right now" and move on?

We will never discuss anything because this is where it always leads... .

I am so frustrated. Can't wait to get in to see a therapist... . Hopefully this week.

I am sorry I keep coming back around to this... . but... . you can't do it.

I'm not sure you are at a point where this is sinking in yet.  So I'll keep saying it and being here and hoping to point you to other places you can focus your learning and healing... . but I, personally, will keep saying it.

You can't have conversations with them because they can't hear you.  It can't and won't happen.  You may think you can do it.  You may think your logic is sound (which it is).  You can show them charts and graphs and reruns of Oprah, you can show them video of themselves doing and saying things which don't make sense - and they can't see it.

or if they do come to you and say they see it - don't trust it - it's a trap.

You can't win.

[woodsposse]

I like that boundary of not discussing relationship problems without a therapist present.

My heart goes out to you because I know a lot of us have been where you are.  I know I was there for a long long long time.

This isn't about relationship problems.

This is about your r/s with a disordered person.

Would it help if I put it in different terms?  Let's try this... .

Say your s/o is a raging alcoholic and she drinks from sun up to sun down.  She gets rude, belligerent, misses work, has car accidents, bites you, hits you, sleeps with your friends when she is really drunk and kicks your dog.

You are trying to say "Well I know she drinks... . but if she can at least give me the validation I need to hear why I get upset when she [insert problem]... . then I'm sure we can work on these relationship problems".

Is there a light bulb going off over your head yet?

If this were the case ... . she would need to get help for her drinking.  Not just stop drinking - but get help with the underlying reasons why she does it before you can even begin to talk about what a real r/s is.

If this were the case... . you are not having a r/s with her - you are having a r/s with her illness and the alcohol.  Only until those are removed and resolved can you actually have a r/s with her.

And in the process, hopefully, you would look at yourself to determine what is going on with you which allows you to stay in a r/s where you are not fully appreciated, respected and loved.

You deserve to bee fully appreciated, respected and loved.

In the case of the disorded s/o... . you are dealing with the disorder.  I hope you can (at your own speed) get to a point where this sinks in.  It makes dealing with what is going on so much better.

[MissyM]

This isn't about relationship problems.

This is about your r/s with a disordered person.

No, it isn't a relationship problem.  That is what my dBPDh likes to concentrate on, projecting that is the problem.  All of the therapists involved with us are aware of this.  That is why I set the boundary that we won't talk about relationship problems, except in front of a therapist.  The therapists are good at turning it back around to personal responsibility.  However, my dBPDh (and I suspect most BPDs) cannot hear that from me.  He does seem to be more receptive to hearing it from others.   The many professionals we have involved in our care have stated that BPDs can learn to validate and behave in a more mature way.  It will take a lot of work on his part and a lot of patience on mine.

Anought, I really like the High Conflict Couple.  Great book.  Most of the books I have seen recommended on this site have been very informative.

[an0ught]

Anought, I really like the High Conflict Couple.  Great book.  Most of the books I have seen recommended on this site have been very informative.

Thank you. It helps that this board is financed independently though donations so we can afford to only recommend what we believe in.

[Olinda]

Thank you all. It is starting to sink in. I have heard from my fiancee for so long that i am going to leave her for good and that she has nothing to offer me. And i have told her that is not true.

I'm wondering if it is true.right now she has fibromyalgia so cannot offer much in the practical housework perspective, my kids(her stepkids) trigger her so much she can't really help with them and now i am realizing she is not offering me much positive in the emotional sense.

What am i receiving? I'm giving so much that maybe i have a martyr complex? Co dependency? I have a lot of work to do.  argh

[Olinda]

We have looked at The High Conflict Couple and she is the one who suggested it. I just don't know whether to have hope.

[MissyM]

Olinda, what it has taken me a long time to get is that I can have hope.  The hope is for ME, not for the relationship or my dBPDh.  Hope that I can live a healthy life and take care of myself, even in the midst of the chaos my dBPDh tries to bring.  It is a tough concept to really grasp and it has taken a couple of years of therapy and 12 step work.  There will be many times I forget and take a giant step backward.  The tools that I have found on this site and the books recommended, have been a a big help in me finally getting it.