am I just seeing it everywhere or am I

[woodsposse]

 

Quick back story.  My children (from my first marriage... . to whom I highly suspect is undiagnosed BPD) were abused (emotionally, physically, neglected, and sexually) when I left the home.  I found this out a few years later when I eventually filed for and got custody of them (that is a long story in and of itself).

So I dealt with all of that and kept my kids safe and now they are adults (yes, they have some issues with all of that but again, that is a totally different topic).

After coming to this support group and finding out that I had been dealing with BPD in my second marriage (for sure) and my FOO (recently found out my abusive mother had been diagnosed 30 years ago) - I started to have things become very clear in my head.  A few days ago I witnessed a situation where it appears an older gentleman was fondeling his child in a highly inappropriate manner while we were at the movies and all these feelings came flooding in - and I realized I never dealt with the trauma of the abuse my kids suffered for my own wellness.  So I joined another support group for abuse survivors.

Now... . that's the back story.  My input request doesn't have to do with child sexual abuse or any type of sexual abuse.  But it starts there.

So I'm on the other board and was reading a husbands story about his 18 year marriage to his wife and how she started to become cold and distant... . and subsequently admit she had been raped not too long before they met and kept it secret all those years.  Then she eventally met some guy at work and started having an affair and "loves" the new dude - so they break up.  She comes back a little while later, one foot in one foot out - he is all like "Oh I love her, she must be in pain because of recalling the rape... . 19 years ago... . how can I be so cruel to her and selfish.  maybe if we get help... . blah blah blah".

She, of course, loves both of them and doesn't know what to do.  She, as he put is, must like this new guy because she feels freer and doesn't have to live with the pain of the rape  and whatever other stuff had gone wrong in their relationship.  He is stuggling to find ways to help comfort her, feels he can't loose her because he loves her and just wants her to be happy.  

And all while I was reading it, half my brain totally understood the love he felt for his wife and the desire to stand by her even with the admissions of the horrendous rape and the fact she stepped outside their marriage to fall in love with someone else... . and the other half of my brain said BPD!

Before I fully understood what I was dealing with with my diagnosed (soon to be) ex wife, I did the exact same thing.  I could rationalize and justify and still desire to be with her because I knew we could fix this.

Now... . I don't even hear the sadness of past sexual trauma,, childhood sex abuse, mommy dying, daddy not being there, neighborhood kids doing more than just playing sex games... . I hear BPD.

Needless to say, I couldn't respond to the post.  I read a couple of the replies and it would be as you would think.  People were supportive of him, and supportive of his decisions to stay with her or whatever.  none of them spoke to a deeper issue such as depression, clinical depression, or any other PD as the root.

So... . am I just seeing it everywhere or am I just so burned by mine experiences that that is all I can see?

I know BPD is an overall pattern... . but when is it just the person you are with is just a little "messed up" because of previous trauma... . and when is it flat out from the word go BPD (or some other PD)?

Not to say that had I known then what I know now would I wouldn't have still gotten involved with my wife (I probably wouldn't) - but am I just at a point where I am "angry" at the disorder and gunshy from my experiences that I am projecting that into everything - or am I seeing something that is actually there?

I think I want to know because my empathy for others is coming back on line... . and I don't want to waste it on lies with people.  I'd rather deal with what is... . instead of spending energy hunting ghosts.

[Turkish]

Not to say that had I known then what I know now would I wouldn't have still gotten involved with my wife (I probably wouldn't) - but am I just at a point where I am "angry" at the disorder and gunshy from my experiences that I am projecting that into everything - or am I seeing something that is actually there?

There are two thoughts on this (probably more, but we'll stick with these):

1. Due to the tramau of our own r/s, our PD "radar" goes into overdrive, and we see BPDs everywhere. In my case, I incorrectly see them. In retrospect, however, I look into my past and see a few women who were clearly BPD. One especially that was so low functioning in her home life, she ended up in the mental ward after an extinction burst with her bf at the time.

2. Due to coming out of the FOG and getting clarity on our own FOO issues, we are attuned to obvious red flags. Just before I got involved with my uBPDx, I spurned the advances of a very hurt and lost woman at work. She was an obvious waif. I patted myself on the back for dogding that bullet, then ran right into another. Analyzing the situations, this past r/s and myself helps me to hopefully never repeat this pattern.

I think I want to know because my empathy for others is coming back on line... . and I don't want to waste it on lies with people.  I'd rather deal with what is... . instead of spending energy hunting ghosts.

That's ok, and it's fine to not reply if you don't feel like it. That demonstrates self awareness of you feelings.

One of the core values on this board is to gently lead people to figure things out for themselves rather than hitting them over the head with a large tome of judgement and directives. People recycle. We don't want to be contributors of guilt or to lay more trauma on already traumatized people. The exception for that is in domestic violence situations, and there are staff protocols with which to deal with it. Offer what you feel you can offer, and be true to youself (which is sounds like you are), and that is the best support you can give. I check myself sometimes, when coming across posts, and say, "if I were that person, how would I react if I were told what I want to write to them?" That is empathy of course, one of the best things we can offer here. I mess up sometimes myself even so.

[nownotsure]

Not sure what to tell you. People do these type of things all the time and it doesn't necessarily mean they're suffering form a psychiatric disorder. Also, you don't have whole picture, other than she's become unfaithful and is thinking of walking away. It sounds like this guy has put his whole life into the relationship. Lots of guys do this and then get blindsided when their wife decides she wants out for whatever reason she gives.

It's quite possible she may have realized the man she married to is no longer the one she wants to spend the remainder of her life with. People marry for all the wrong reasons and then decide once the kids have left that they've become bored of it or have grown apart. There's a reason why the divorce rate in the west hovers around 50% and only 30% of second marriages last.

I know it's comforting to try and rationally explain away someone else's irrational behavior as being part of a mental disorder (I get the same urge as well). However, since clinical psychologists have a hard enough time making such determinations, we should use extreme caution ourselves before placing any labels on someone else. We all have the ability to make bad life-choices and to act impulsive when we want to.

[gary seven]

but am I just at a point where I am "angry" at the disorder and gunshy from my experiences that I am projecting that into everything - or am I seeing something that is actually there?

I think I want to know because my empathy for others is coming back on line... . and I don't want to waste it on lies with people.  I'd rather deal with what is... . instead of spending energy hunting ghosts.

WP:

When my BPDw was diagnosed in the turmoil of my summer last year, I was very angry at the disorder.  On several levels:

Her illness had a name.  Why didn't I see it or diagnose it or find it myself?

How could she let herself not want to get help sooner?  Or maybe accept it sooner than now... . like 20 years ago, pre-me and the kids?

I got angry at the disorder how it messed up our life.

I have since thawed, with the help of this group.  I have learned to try not to throw gas on her fire.  I try to set boundaries for me.  And for my young kids, to make sure I get at least one laugh out of them or tickle them (they are elementary aged) or do a head stand like Gomez Adams would do right before I put them to bed.  And that softens my pain, and calms my anger , both of which are very deep, a bit too.

[woodsposse]

It's quite possible she may have realized the man she married to is no longer the one she wants to spend the remainder of her life with. People marry for all the wrong reasons and then decide once the kids have left that they've become bored of it or have grown apart. There's a reason why the divorce rate in the west hovers around 50% and only 30% of second marriages last.

I know it's comforting to try and rationally explain away someone else's irrational behavior as being part of a mental disorder (I get the same urge as well). However, since clinical psychologists have a hard enough time making such determinations, we should use extreme caution ourselves before placing any labels on someone else. We all have the ability to make bad life-choices and to act impulsive when we want to.

But see I think that is the part that I am questioning.

If on it's face it sounds something as "simple" as normal wear and tear on a relationship had them drift apart -- then during the course of their union I'm sure he did what we all do (try to find a reason for the rift and try to pull it back together). 

It sounds "normal".

But having gone through this with both my marriages and now that I know about  BPD (which actually explains everything... . right down to the make up/breakup/make up, cheating, illogical, irrational arguments, and so on)... . when is it "normal" and when is it not.

I'm questioning this because as I came to full grips with the devestation of my childhood and FOO - I see that my definition of "normal" wasn't really normal.  I mean, I put up with a lot in both unions.  And by put up with I mean it hurt like hell, I fought against it, I lived in the chaos for an ounce of happiness... . and now that I'm out of both, I look back and say - yup, I saw all the signs very early on.  I just didn't know what I was looking at.

I can absolutely say, without a doubt, I love my new s/o.  I very much enjoy how our relationship has been growing.  Nothing rushed.  Nothing over the top. And it is as exciting to me as when I was first with my wife.  The joy, happiness, fondess (and the intimacy... . and there is a lot of intimacy... . whoo hoo!)

I'm on a path where I know I could remain seriously bonded with her.

So lets say we get married then all of a sudden things start to change.  Is that inside the realm of "normal"?  Did she just have a bad day?  Did she come down with some illness and is just frustrated because of that... . that's why she is in a foul mood, breaking our wellness and intimacy is off the table (and lack of intimacy has returned)?

Do I look at it as common interpersonal relationship issues or is there something else?

I don't want to be all like "Uh oh... . you woke up in a bad mood... . you are about to go all BPD... . I'm out"

I don't want to look at every relationship issue and ascribe some PD to it (although, in my life, pretty much every long term significant relationship had some form of diagnosed PD in it - wheter I knew it or not).

I had a G/F once (during one of my recycles with my first wife when the divorce papers were all but on the judges table ready to rule) and we dated for about 3 months.  I know I don't have a PD... . but there was something which told me to bail.  It just wasn't happening for me.  And besides, she got a little hostile with me one night when I was just not in the mood to have sex and tried to push past my boundaries (which upset me greatly) so I left.

A few days later she wanted to come over to talk about it, apologize,  blah blah blah - I let her come.  I admit, I was a bit horny.  So I sat there and she let me pour my emotional heart out as to why what happened was so hurtful for me.  She said she understood... . we jumped in bed.  Woke up the next day and my feelings really hadn't changed.  So when she left to go home, I broke I off with her and never looked back.

Although the r/s was heading down an unhealthy track, I think my decision to just cut it off was the most healthiest thing I could do.  we didn't live together, we didn't have kids, we had nothing tieing us together.

But what if we did.  What if I thought, at that time, she was where I wanted to be and we did get married, we did have a kid together only to find out after x-years of problems that it was nothing I could fix because she had been molested as a kid, felt abandoned and clung on to me as a savior high and mighty and when that illusion wore off she had to go get her energy from someone else.  i.e. on-line, previous b/f... . new b/f (or g/f... . or whatever... . yeah, she rolled like that).

I guess what I'm asking is - if it is normal interpersonal dynmics, then the tools we have (and can learn) to deal with and make things better should work.  But if it isn't normal dynamics - how are we suppose to know.

[woodsposse]

but am I just at a point where I am "angry" at the disorder and gunshy from my experiences that I am projecting that into everything - or am I seeing something that is actually there?

I think I want to know because my empathy for others is coming back on line... . and I don't want to waste it on lies with people.  I'd rather deal with what is... . instead of spending energy hunting ghosts.

WP:

When my BPDw was diagnosed in the turmoil of my summer last year, I was very angry at the disorder.  On several levels:

Her illness had a name.  Why didn't I see it or diagnose it or find it myself?

How could she let herself not want to get help sooner?  Or maybe accept it sooner than now... . like 20 years ago, pre-me and the kids?

I got angry at the disorder how it messed up our life.

I have since thawed, with the help of this group.  I have learned to try not to throw gas on her fire.  I try to set boundaries for me.  And for my young kids, to make sure I get at least one laugh out of them or tickle them (they are elementary aged) or do a head stand like Gomez Adams would do right before I put them to bed.  And that softens my pain, and calms my anger , both of which are very deep, a bit too.

I totally get where you are coming from.  Maybe I misspoke.  I don't think I was or am mad at the disorder - I think it is diabolical... . but I can't hate it.  That's like hating a cold or something.  The cold virus that is.  I hate the effects of the cold (you know what I mean).

For me, knowing what the disorder is ... . now ... . I think I'm more upset that the clarity comes after the fact.

not saying that the union  could have been saved knowing now what I know - but my brain keeps telling me that maybe it could have.

And more importantly... . now that I know what I know - I'm going to be hypervigilant to not step into it again.

But I don't wanna run away just because something which may happen in my future r/s gets a little disconnected and needs a little TLC to correct the course.  I mean... . even in normal healthy relationships things can happen... . right?

I ask because I don't think I have actually ever been in a normal healthy relationship long enough to know.

[heartandwhole]

Hi woods posse,

It's understandable that you would see BPD traits all over the place after what you've been through, it happened to me, too.  In fact, I actually think some of my family has BPD traits, and a couple of my friends.  It has explained a lot and been helpful to know that.

On the other hand, not everyone who experiences trauma will have BPD, just as not everyone with BPD has experienced trauma. We all exhibit the traits sometimes, and maybe some people seem to exhibit them often, but that doesn't = BPD, necessarily.

I think empathy and compassion is a good route to take, and stepping back if you feel stressed or anxious at others' posts.  You are healing, and will probably be a bit jittery about boundaries and be extra sensitive to certain behaviors for a while, and that's perfectly normal. 

You don't have to "know" if people have the disorder or not.  Listen your gut reactions for now, and use your wise mind.  It's not a linear process and we won't get it right all the time.   

[woodsposse]

Thank you for the feedback and the link about Wise Mind.

There was one thing I know I noticed about me in my current relationship even back when we first started dating... . I had to force myself not to respond to things based off of how I had been doing so in my previous relationship.  I mean, there wasn't a great deal of time off in between the two.

So as my and my new s/o started learning each other, I had to force (I mean really really force) myself to focus on the fact that this woman doesn't know me.  She hasn't spent the last 20 years with me.  She doesn't know my inflections - my wit - my humor... . we didn't have our common language, our jokes, our shared experiences.

There were times we would be talking... . I'd say something and she would answer and it was obvious that she misunderstood what I was saying, or the point I was coming from.  It didn't frustrate me - I just had to remind myself that we didn't have a common point of view jumping off point yet... . and I would acknowledge her reply and then say "but what I meant was... . " - she would hear me, and we would then talk about whatever from a common pov.

There was one trigger event, around Christmas, where I was just not feeling "it".  It took me a few days to finally put it together as to what was going on with me - and the short of it was... . I was still dealing with residue of my previous r/s.  The feeling surrounding the events which happened had nothing to do with her.

(she ended up in the ER... . and I joined her to be of comfort.  But in my r/s with my ex... . oh, god, I lost track of how many times we were in the hospital or ER or some illness and doctor visits and more and more felt trapped and helpless not because I didn't have a standing to do or say anything, but because my wife didn't want to do what she was told to do by the doctor, which made her conditions not improve, which made tensions between us not improve, blah blah blah).

Anyway, when my new S/O went to the ER - I kept getting more and more anxious and couldn't figure out why.  we ended up back there the next weekend because the first time we were there she wasn't treated very nice and her issue hadn't improved and was in pain.   I "moved mountains" to make sure she would have a better experience... . contacted the paitent advocate, who was uber nice, talked with her explained what was going on... . so when we went back it was a totally different experience.  But I had done that so many time in my marriage it became second nature... . only to have my efforts met with my wife leaving me and blaming me for the demise of our r/s.

Once I was able to calm down and think it through I knew my source of discontent had nothing to do with the present.  So I processed that and have been fine every since.


Anyway, lost the point I was trying to make so I'm gonna stop typing now.

Think I'll watch a movie.   

[gary seven]

she ended up in the ER... . and I joined her to be of comfort.  But in my r/s with my ex... . oh, god, I lost track of how many times we were in the hospital or ER or some illness and doctor visits and more and more felt trapped and helpless not because I didn't have a standing to do or say anything, but because my wife didn't want to do what she was told to do by the doctor, which made her conditions not improve, which made tensions between us not improve, blah blah blah).

  But I had done that so many time in my marriage it became second nature... . only to have my efforts met with my wife leaving me and blaming me for the demise of our r/s.

Once I was able to calm down and think it through I knew my source of discontent had nothing to do with the present.  So I processed that and have been fine every since.

WF: So I'm not the only husband who has done the gazillion ER/Doctor visits, only to be personally re-traumatized when we have to "start all over again."

Your point of The Second Nature is interesting, as I interpret it. 

Calming down is the key.

So glad to hear your present and future are brighter than the past.  Gives me a little hope.

[HealingForMe]

am I just at a point where I am "angry" at the disorder and gunshy from my experiences that I am projecting that into everything - or am I seeing something that is actually there?

There are two thoughts on this (probably more, but we'll stick with these):

1. Due to the tramau of our own r/s, our PD "radar" goes into overdrive, and we see BPDs everywhere. In my case, I incorrectly see them. In retrospect, however, I look into my past and see a few women who were clearly BPD. One especially that was so low functioning in her home life, she ended up in the mental ward after an extinction burst with her bf at the time.

2. Due to coming out of the FOG and getting clarity on our own FOO issues, we are attuned to obvious red flags. Just before I got involved with my uBPDx, I spurned the advances of a very hurt and lost woman at work. She was an obvious waif. I patted myself on the back for dogding that bullet, then ran right into another. Analyzing the situations, this past r/s and myself helps me to hopefully never repeat this pattern.

My BPD radar is flying high. I see it everywhere now, even when its not BPD. There are 100s of recognized mental illnesses, & 100s more still to be recognized. We have only touched the tip of the iceberg regarding the brain/mind. I'm sure in the future many dBPDs will actually be re-diagnosed with something else or a subset of BPD.

Anyway, I think I will be much more prepared to spot it in others now, I just have to be careful not to be paranoid of it!

I think I want to know because my empathy for others is coming back on line... . and I don't want to waste it on lies with people.  I'd rather deal with what is... . instead of spending energy hunting ghosts.

One of the core values on this board is to gently lead people to figure things out for themselves rather than hitting them over the head with a large tome of judgement and directives. People recycle. We don't want to be contributors of guilt or to lay more trauma on already traumatized people

Very true. They have it hard enough without us laying even more guilt at their feet. Even though a pwBPD can do some pretty cruel, vindictive things, its important to realise in a way its not their fault. They are just trying to survive the best they can in a world they perceive is "out to get them".

Somewhere I read:

People with BPD didnt ask to have BPD,

They dont want to have BPD,

So they shouldnt be blamed for having BPD!

Blame the illness not the person... .

When I first read that, it made it so much easier to cope with her tantrums & demands. It doesnt take away their responsibility to seek help nor their responsibility for their actions, but remember they have a mental illness that is not their fault & often the result of horrific childhood abuse