the first time I was in the FOG... with a hs gf

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

When I was senior, one of my senior friends had a sophomore girl who hung out with him fir some reason. She was cute, though very shy and withdrawn. Her mother was divorced (the father not in the picture, though by he aggresive the mother was, I later saw probably why). Being the White Knight, I took it as a challenge to draw her out. An obvious waif. She was immature, but had no BPD tendencies that I remember. We were in some kind of r/s, some physicality, no sex. I used to write her poems and would sometimes send her roses. I hung out at her house on weekends. Her little brother seemed omnipresent, but it was ok otherwise. Her mom did like me from what i could tell. The only thing she used to complain to me about was not having a car.  I had a motircycle. That was me: independent. Solo. I wasn't going to sell it for her. This was high school. We made plans for the prom, rented a tux,.went in with some buddies to rent a limo. Things were fine. until she dumped me over the phone out of the blue two weeks before prom, citing that she wanted her freedom, though I don't ever remember being cloying or anything.

By all rights, I should have eaten the cost of the limo and tux and said, "we're not going." She even asked at school if I still wanted to go. Not wanting to let everybody down, I felt obligated, even to her, though I wasn't in love with her. We went, I hated it. She ran off to hang out with her friends, I was pretty much alone. Having little confidance with girls, I only asked one to dance. When it came time to take pictures, she even jabbed me in the ribs and said "smile!" So I did.

I graduated soon after, but was stuck at home with my increasingly crazy mother all summer since I was still 17. I was working most of the week and hanging out with friends anyway. exWaif started showing up at my work. Said she had a car. Wanted to take me to the city. An attempted recycle. After a couple of weeks, I realized I had no feelings for her, and she went away (two years later, my stupid college roommate went out with her, and they showed up out of the blue at our apartment, but that's another story).

Being a loner, I had only one other official gf in my late 20s. Another waif who a mutual friend pushed on me. It was a LDR. she dumped me too. No reason cited. Thought the world of me for months and told everybody. Then coldly said it was over one day. I had bought her a plan ticket to come visit me. Like the prom thing, she too gave me a way out, "do you still want me to come visit you?" Out of O, I said yes. It was an awkward, silent weekend. I did take her to see the sights, but a 3 hour drive across the state to the ocean was largely silent. This person, I hold no ill feelings towards to this day. Still connected on FB through the mutual friends. She fell into her own dysfunction later, but is doing ok as a single mom.

Like uBPDx, this goes to something my T said near the end of our weekly session, "you and she are just mismatched." Looking back, that is certainly true for all of them. I projected White Knight, they were attracted to it. Ultimately, I didn't feel like I could really be "all of me" with any of them. Perhaps they sensed this, which is why they chose to leave. Maybe they saw the truth and embraced it while I denied it out of my stubborn idealization of "ought" rather than "is."

If I spend the rest of my life alone may I never do that again.

I spent so much time alone, starting from foster care, then being the latch key kid of a single mother with her own problems, largely shunned by my peers until hs for other reasons I won't go into, that I developed a Self larger than it should have been in a healthy person. uBPDx accused me of not being vulnerable at the end, which may have triggered her lack of self worth in combination with her c/d tendencies, but I was who I was.

So what do I do now? Change who I am in my 40s? Impossible. Change that which I am attracted to to fill that small, but significant hole? That I think I can do.

[Turkish]

When I was senior, one of my senior friends had a sophomore girl who hung out with him fir some reason. She was cute, though very shy and withdrawn. Her mother was divorced (the father not in the picture, though by he aggresive the mother was, I later saw probably why). Being the White Knight, I took it as a challenge to draw her out. An obvious waif. She was immature, but had no BPD tendencies that I remember. We were in some kind of r/s, some physicality, no sex. I used to write her poems and would sometimes send her roses. I hung out at her house on weekends. Her little brother seemed omnipresent, but it was ok otherwise. Her mom did like me from what i could tell. The only thing she used to complain to me about was not having a car.  I had a motircycle. That was me: independent. Solo. I wasn't going to sell it for her. This was high school. We made plans for the prom, rented a tux,.went in with some buddies to rent a limo. Things were fine. until she dumped me over the phone out of the blue two weeks before prom, citing that she wanted her freedom, though I don't ever remember being cloying or anything.

By all rights, I should have eaten the cost of the limo and tux and said, "we're not going." She even asked at school if I still wanted to go. Not wanting to let everybody down, I felt obligated, even to her, though I wasn't in love with her. We went, I hated it. She ran off to hang out with her friends, I was pretty much alone. Having little confidance with girls, I only asked one to dance. When it came time to take pictures, she even jabbed me in the ribs and said "smile!" So I did.

I graduated soon after, but was stuck at home with my increasingly crazy mother all summer since I was still 17. I was working most of the week and hanging out with friends anyway. exWaif started showing up at my work. Said she had a car. Wanted to take me to the city. An attempted recycle. After a couple of weeks, I realized I had no feelings for her, and she went away (two years later, my stupid college roommate went out with her, and they showed up out of the blue at our apartment, but that's another story).

Being a loner, I had only one other official gf in my late 20s. Another waif who a mutual friend pushed on me. It was a LDR. she dumped me too. No reason cited. Thought the world of me for months and told everybody. Then coldly said it was over one day. I had bought her a plan ticket to come visit me. Like the prom thing, she too gave me a way out, "do you still want me to come visit you?" Out of O, I said yes. It was an awkward, silent weekend. I did take her to see the sights, but a 3 hour drive across the state to the ocean was largely silent. This person, I hold no ill feelings towards to this day. Still connected on FB through the mutual friends. She fell into her own dysfunction later, but is doing ok as a single mom.

Like uBPDx, this goes to something my T said near the end of our weekly session, "you and she are just mismatched." Looking back, that is certainly true for all of them. I projected White Knight, they were attracted to it. Ultimately, I didn't feel like I could really be "all of me" with any of them. Perhaps they sensed this, which is why they chose to leave. Maybe they saw the truth and embraced it while I denied it out of my stubborn idealization of "ought" rather than "is."

If I spend the rest of my life alone may I never do that again.

I spent so much time alone, starting from foster care, then being the latch key kid of a single mother with her own problems, largely shunned by my peers until hs for other reasons I won't go into, that I developed a Self larger than it should have been in a healthy person. uBPDx accused me of not being vulnerable at the end, which may have triggered her lack of self worth in combination with her c/d tendencies, but I was who I was.

So what do I do now? Change who I am in my 40s? Impossible. Change that which I am attracted to to fill that small, but significant hole? That I think I can do.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Turkish,

I find it interesting that in both relationships, after the breakup, you felt obligated  (out of O – love that!) to do what you had planned to do.  Does that relate to anything from your FOO?

I struggle with being attracted to men who are not available, hence, not able to be full partners with me (reflecting my own inabilities to partner the way I'd like to).  I think getting to know ourselves deeply and changing our behavior will change who we are attracted to.  I don't think we can separate the two into discrete categories.  What do you think?

[Turkish]

Hi Turkish,

I find it interesting that in both relationships, after the breakup, you felt obligated  (out of O – love that!) to do what you had planned to do.  Does that relate to anything from your FOO?

I was thinking about that. I don't know where I get it. My mom is a Rescuer/Nurturer. Her trade is nursing. Her family was always across the country, and we hardly saw them. Having had to parent myself, being the latchkey kid of a single mother with no male influences in my life, perhaps I just formed my inner Father Parent out of what I read or saw on tv and in movies. I don't know. I'll discuss this with my T.

I struggle with being attracted to men who are not available, hence, not able to be full partners with me (reflecting my own inabilities to partner the way I'd like to).

What do you mean, men that are already attached to someone else? Or whose life circumstances mean that they can't give you the time it takes for a full r/s?

I think getting to know ourselves deeply and changing our behavior will change who we are attracted to.  I don't think we can separate the two into discrete categories.  What do you think?

I can change my behaviors of not being attracted to waifs. Or at least not acting upon them. I felt like I just went through 6 years of electroshock therapy to get me to this point. Whether or not I get to the point of projecting something healthy to attract a healthy partner, that is the question. Married women usually like me a lot, some even gushing over how great they think I am, and some used to say, "you should be married!" One friend used to get frustrated with me that I wasn't trying hard enough to meet someone. She was so happy when I found uBPDx. She had previously tried to hook me up with one of her friends who was a single mother, but I pegged that woman as neurotic the moment she stepped into the room, so I blew it off. So the challenge is to project what I want to attract to available women. Perhaps in sensing certain women weren't available, I was being more real and myself, rather than playing Rescuer to attach to a waif.

[heartandwhole]

What do you mean, men that are already attached to someone else? Or whose life circumstances mean that they can't give you the time it takes for a full r/s?

All of the above       My father was physically absent for the first seven years of my life, I didn't even know him.  Then, when he came into my life, he was emotionally absent and abused alcohol.  My relationship paradigm has consisted of attracting men who were "absent" in various ways.  That doesn't mean the relationships were bad, just that ultimately I felt a lack of the deeper connection I craved.

It's been a real challenge to work through that, because of my own defense mechanisms that keep me from allowing myself to be vulnerable.  If I keep attracting "unavailable," then I can just blame my conditioning and never look at the fact that I'm unavailable, too.  I'm just as "absent" from my emotional life as the unavailable partner, because I set it up that way (unconsciously), and because I never learned to satisfy my own emotional needs.  Instead, I tried to "fix" that gap by being exceptionally loving, giving, etc., but what I've come to see is that that's the outside-in way that doesn't work anymore.  Now I'm working on inside-out – learning to understand my needs (which I simply repressed, knowing they would never get met) and learning give myself the love and comfort and acknowledgement that I need(ed).

I'm hoping this will change what kind of relationships I attract into my life.  I know that I'll always have certain issues relating to my FOO to deal with, but I do think that with diligence and practice, and some grace thrown in for good measure, we do change. 

I can change my behaviors of not being attracted to waifs. Or at least not acting upon them.

That last part makes sense to me.     The first part I think it much harder, without changing the "program" that we act out unconsciously.

Perhaps in sensing certain women weren't available, I was being more real and myself, rather than playing Rescuer to attach to a waif.

Could be!  That's interesting, and I'd love to hear more, Turkish.  Good stuff.

[Dog biscuit]

If I spend the rest of my life alone may I never do that again.

I spent so much time alone... .

So what do I do now? Change who I am in my 40s? Impossible. Change that which I am attracted to to fill that small, but significant hole? That I think I can do.

Oh Turkish, there is so much in your last couple of posts that resonates with me. Unfortunatly my english is not good enough to post an eloquent reaction but I will give it a go.

I dont fall in love very easy, and I learned a couple of years ago that when I fall in love it is likely with someone who will resemble something of my upbringing. My upbringing was very chaotic and violent. I will fall in love with someone who displays traits of that because it will bring up an uncounsience feeling of familiarity and 'belonging'. I was very lonely during my youth, and later in life it became my shelter from harm. Being on my own, being inside myself feels safe. Connecting with someone feels nice and good but also a bit unsafe. Showing my vulnerability feels unsafe. Needing someone feels unsafe and painfull. Being dependant on someone for love feels unsafe to me. I struggle with that in the beginning of a r/s.

Everybody falls in love with someone that resembles something of their upbringing. It is human nature to feel comfortable and connected with people that feel familiar on a subconsisuois level. No prob when your upbringing was good and healty, more dangerous when that was not the case.

With my T I am examining if it is possible to change to whom I feel atraccted to. But before examining/exploring that I have to pay attention to that lonely child inside of me. I have to take care of her, I have to make her less lonely, and less vulnerable to 'bad' love. I cannot make her less lonely by 'resciuing' someone else - which I believe to be a try to rescue yourself from whatever, and securing an attachement- and I cannot make her less lonely by resorting to my isolation again. There have to be other ways to open up and allow myself- the lonely child- to connect to people. To really connect. But to allow myself to connect also brings up pain, the pain of lonelyness/isolating for so long. I dont know yet how to resolve this, but I believe the 'solution'or change lays there, with the lonely child. I have to resolve the problem of the lonely and longing child first.

Is it possible to change the proces of what you are atraccted to? I dont know, but I hope so! Atracction is something that takes place on a deep and complex level within ourselves.

Sorry if this reaction is to much about myself and not directly about you're search for answers. It is supposed to be a reaction on your question.  

[Cumulus]

Hi Turkish, you spoke to me as well when talking of the independent, alone, and I would add strong child in your post. I imagine many of us who post on these boards would fit the description. What a magnet for someone who needs a partner in their life to help them survive. Unfortunately by opting for that partner we get someone who is emotionally immature and our relationship becomes one in which we become the parent, speaking for myself. I decided I didn't want that relationship anymore. I want a relationship where I can tell the truth and my partner can hear me and decide to either agree or disagree with me. I need a relationship where I no longer have to console and smooth and pacify. I want an adult relationship. I want to be able to have a fight and have it be fair for both of us, not to be scared that he'll blow up and it will take me a month to get him calm again. First though, I want to make certain that I am in a good place, that I am bringing a healthy maturity into the relationship. I know I'm able to be independent, I need to learn to depend on someone, I know I can be alone, I need to learn to be lonely, I know I can be strong, I need to allow the other his strengths.

There is a great song, sorry can't remember who wrote it, that goes like this, "I never feel so given to as when you take from me." A really beautiful sentiment but also one that I need to turn around and learn that taking is the other half of giving.

All the best Turk, my advice, get a cat and go on holiday. Find a healthy woman and ask her to look after your cat. Take her out for supper to thank her. Worked for me 

[Turkish]

Dog Biscuit

I dont fall in love very easy, and I learned a couple of years ago that when I fall in love it is likely with someone who will resemble something of my upbringing. My upbringing was very chaotic and violent. I will fall in love with someone who displays traits of that because it will bring up an uncounsience feeling of familiarity and 'belonging'. I was very lonely during my youth, and later in life it became my shelter from harm. Being on my own, being inside myself feels safe. Connecting with someone feels nice and good but also a bit unsafe. Showing my vulnerability feels unsafe. Needing someone feels unsafe and painfull. Being dependant on someone for love feels unsafe to me.

Is it possible to change the proces of what you are atraccted to? I dont know, but I hope so! Atracction is something that takes place on a deep and complex level within ourselves.

Sorry if this reaction is to much about myself and not directly about you're search for answers. It is supposed to be a reaction on your question.

No problem. It helps to relate our own stories, to know we are not alone. She accused me of this in the end, that I wasn't vulnerable enough. That I wasn't relying on her enough. I felt, however, that I was responsible for most everything, and in the last year, the kids more so. I resented that. I didn't communicate it well, which she is right I was bad in that regard. I wanted someone more outgoing and sociable than I was, and early on, I realized I got the reverse, because despite her outward appearance, she was fearful, socially anxious and defensive. I got the opposite of what I wanted. She even accused me of being a social butterfly once. And made fun of me because I would occasionally talk to my friends on the phone for an hour, people I didn't see much, but have known for 25-30 years. Brothers, for all intents and purposes. She was the opposite. How could I be vulnerable with someone like that? So I just was myself, minus the vulnerability necessary in a true intimate r/s. Ih short, I never felt "safe" with her. She just didn't want to hear the negative stuff, as it triggered her. She knew me, but she really never knew me. 6 long years. Whereas, I know her inside and out. I trust people, but perhaps I'm trusting the wrong people, as I feel they let me down, like she did. Of course, she said this about me, that I failed... . yes, failed to parent her properly. I need to re-parent myself! I for sure don't need someone like me either.

Cumulus

Hi Turkish, you spoke to me as well when talking of the independent, alone, and I would add strong child in your post. I imagine many of us who post on these boards would fit the description. What a magnet for someone who needs a partner in their life to help them survive. Unfortunately by opting for that partner we get someone who is emotionally immature and our relationship becomes one in which we become the parent, speaking for myself. I decided I didn't want that relationship anymore. I want a relationship where I can tell the truth and my partner can hear me and decide to either agree or disagree with me. I need a relationship where I no longer have to console and smooth and pacify. I want an adult relationship. I want to be able to have a fight and have it be fair for both of us, not to be scared that he'll blow up and it will take me a month to get him calm again. First though, I want to make certain that I am in a good place, that I am bringing a healthy maturity into the relationship. I know I'm able to be independent, I need to learn to depend on someone, I know I can be alone, I need to learn to be lonely, I know I can be strong, I need to allow the other his strengths.

I was totally the parent, especially through the end where I had to put down clear boundaries as if to a teenager and she said she appreciated it.  An older friend of mine and I talk about this. He saw out dynamic years ago. Now mine switched back to a much younger and immature person, so she can be the parent, if that is possible. Good luck if it works for her for a while, though with my kids in the mix, I can't tell you how much anger I have at this... . stories for another board.

All the best Turk, my advice, get a cat and go on holiday. Find a healthy woman and ask her to look after your cat. Take her out for supper to thank her. Worked for me

That's an idea. S4 is into wanting a cat now. It would be cool to have one when the kids aren't here. Not sure where to meet women at this point. I met mine volunteering in the community. I don't think I will go there again. Lots of co dependents and people with PDs (I spotted a few obvious ones). If I do nothing, then I will forever be alone, as I was for years before I decided to not be. Then I got this... . 6 years of drama! I think my biggest "fear" if I may call it that, is that I can't be vulnerable enough to need anybody. It's a curse of the lonely child who grew up doing far more for his or herself than we should have had to. I don't think of my childhood as "lost" like my uBPDx does, but I definitely was forced by circumstance to grow up too fast.

Ok, out of town for a day or so to go help my mom with some things. 2.5 hour drive. It will be nice to get out of the city and into the forest, my mom's mud, dogs and chickens even so.

[livednlearned]

So what do I do now? Change who I am in my 40s? Impossible. Change that which I am attracted to to fill that small, but significant hole? That I think I can do.

I'm in my 40s. Marriage and divorce from N/BPDx brought me to my knees. I have never been that raw and vulnerable before, and I know I'm different now. I learned to fill my own cup. Most of my life I either pretended I didn't need it filled, or else looked for someone else to fill it. Fear and obligation and guilt will always be a part of who I am, but so will this new daily practice of feeling gratitude, feeling worthy. I know how crippling shame can be, so I unload it with people I trust, or with my T (when I have money  ) and I know how and when I need to protect myself, and how and when to be vulnerable.

It's possible to change. I really believe that. I was resigned to living alone for the rest of my life (I'm a bit melodramatic that way  ) and was learning how to be my new me when I met the guy I'm currently dating. He's so different than anyone I've ever dated. I wasn't trying to find someone different, but I found I was genuinely attracted to a good man. He isn't like any of the men I've dated. I see him as my emotional equal. He comes from a similar background, and he has a similar heart, similar orientation -- he wants to know what is meaningful in life, and how can he connect. So we're learning this together.

It's a daily practice. Not easy, but definitely possible.