Trying to understand her attitude

[Zon]

Earlier today, my wife and I had a small chat on IM about a seemingly safe subject.  I was at work and she at home.  I can see that she took my question as an attack.  I was not trying to question her, but she saw it that way.  How can I ask questions without provoking her defense?  Obviously, I could word a question to not do that given a large amount of time, but I do not have that.

Communication between wife and I:

   
• Wife: I came across an article about the damaging side effect of consuming food heated by microwave.  Until I have more time to ready more study on it, would you mind boiling water on the stove instead?  The article is in another language, I am trying to find some information so that I can find equivalent article in English etc.


   
• Myself: Why boiling water on the stove as it is not food?


   
• Wife: Suit your self.


   
• Myself: Also, I recall something about letting food sit for a couple of minutes to let radiation release or something like that.


   
• Wife: It doesn't change the fact that there is an alteration to the element. Since you use it a lot, I just thought perhaps don't do it for awhile.  But if you want to question every thing meant nice to you, I will certainly stop.


   
• Myself: I was only curious.


   
• Wife: You get mad if I just flat out question you too.


   
• Wife: I also indicated that I need more research.


   
• Myself: You mentioned food but only warned about the water, so I was wondering if I missed something.


   
• Wife: Because you don't consume so much reheated food.


   
• Myself: I understand.


   
• Wife: OK.

Now, I could have asked it differently, but I have tried variations in cases like this where it does not work.  Examples:

• "How does it harm water?"  That would provoke a "I already told you that I am trying to find more information.  Why can you not just trust me and wait?"



• "Should I avoid the same with food too?"  This could work but not always.  ":)idn't I already tell you that food is damaged by it?"  This does not answer my question.

This attitude of hers is part of the reason I shut down around her.  The MC even said that shutting down is a way to protect oneself.  What I hate about this is that I am punished, by her, for interacting with her.  She does this with our daughter too.  She sees it as if we are fighting her when we just want to know more or understand better what she wants.

[maxsterling]

You invalidated her.  She had something important she discovered and wanted to share with you, and you immediately questioned her on it before validating that her important discovery is legitimate.  Her mind then spirals downward.  She takes this to mean you don't care what she has to say.  And that means you don't care about her.  And that means you don't love her.  And that means you deliberately do things to hurt her, and everything you do is to piss her off (black and white thinking).

Believe me, I've been in almost the exact same situation countless times.  The other day it was about organic food.  Times before that it may have been about some herbal supplement, yoga, methods of cleaning, etc, etc.  Oh, and last night it was about the bacteria on sponges and how we should wash the sponges regularly. 

Even though those things are not important to us, we need to validate they are important to them, otherwise look out.  So, you could have said:

"Wow, honey, that's very interesting.  I'd be very interested to hear what you uncover after additional research."

She's excited about what she discovered, and thinks you should care. Saying the above says you care about all the work she has done to make her family healthier, even if you are a skeptic. 

And since it is little trouble, I would have just agreed to boil water on the stove for now. "Okay honey, I will boil water on the stove until you find out if heating water in the microwave is safe."

I can certainly understand the shutting down.  For months it seems like anything I said could trigger the very worst out of her, so I shut down and said nothing.  I'm very slowly starting to feel comfortable having conversations about deeper things with her again. 

[Zon]

That has me pulling my hair out.     She married someone very technical yet does not want to carry deep conversations with him.

I understand that it invalidates her from her point of view, but I am the polar opposite.  I want people to question me.  I want a healthy discussion.  I already refrain from pulling apart any idea of hers.  Actually, some arguments arise from me pulling apart someone else's idea.  Somehow, it becomes hers at some point.  It may also be the NPD of her that makes it harder.  She cannot accept that we may disagree.  In this case, I was puzzled by her mentioning water when she said food.  I thought she left something out.

To understand my dilemma, this is me:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architect_(Role_Variant).  I am not quite as bad as said in the "Relationships" section of that article because I try to engage.  Sadly, I used to be more open with her than I am now, but it led to more pain than it was worth.

[maxsterling]

I certainly understand where you are coming from.  I'm technical as well.  I'm self-sufficient.  I prefer to stand out of the way and let others handle their own problems, and if they need help I want them to specifically ask what they want.  I'm also a quiet person, prefer to think things through first, and more of a listener than a talker.  I treat others the way I like to be treated.  So, when I go into a store, I would rather ask for help than to have a salesman ask me.  I prefer my own space to figure things out on my own.  I will ask for help when I need it, rather than just grumble and whine until someone comes to help me. 

All these personality traits seem to backfire when dealing with my BPDgf -

To her, my listening to her concerns and waiting for her to finish speaking and not replying immediately means I don't care about her.

To her, me having my own hobbies or liking to do things on my own means I don't care about her.

To her, me not responding to her constant gripes and knowing exactly how to solve them means I don't care about her.

The reality is, she has BPD, and will always have BPD.  And to be in a relationship with someone like that means you may have to meet her more than halfway.  That doesn't mean you can't still be technical or have technical questions for her - it simply means picking your battles and altering the way you respond to her so that you can get your technical concerns in through other methods.  And that may be as simple as validating her statements before you start to ask questions.   A simple, "wow, that sounds interesting (and it is interesting, technical people are curious!)" might have saved you here.  In my case, when she is complaining about her day, a simple "wow, that sounds horrible, I'm sorry that happened to you"  has defused the situation numerous times.   

[itsnotme567]

So I see now being technical myself and my approach to helping her solve such things as a computer problem Resulted in her saying I was treating her like she was stupid.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

And since it is little trouble, I would have just agreed to boil water on the stove for now. "Okay honey, I will boil water on the stove until you find out if heating water in the microwave is safe."

Oh my gosh I would never agree to that... . When would it end when she will never uncover the evidence?  (See www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3151/anything-new-on-the-dangers-of-microwave-ovens.  I still laugh when I read his initial response, “You’re 100 percent correct — it’s been scientifically proven that microwaving changes the molecular structure of food. THIS IS CALLED COOKING, YOU NITWIT.”)

I have a problem validating with anything that suggests I agree when I don't, because it acts like a springboard to the next level of crazy... .

[maxsterling]

Guys - I'm only suggesting what I would do.  I've got a science background.  I know that microwaving food is completely safe, and I think it is silly for someone to believe otherwise.  But I also recognize most people don't have that science or logical background, and I have to deal with this same issue all the time with friends or family.  They will come to me with something that makes no logical sense.  And then I will have to choose whether it's worth trying to set them straight, or just let them have their beliefs.  A perfect example is the lottery.  The lottery is going to lose you money, yet I have tons of friends who play it.  Rather than stand on my soapbox and question them about it, I just let it be.  

R/s - same thing.  I know there will always be things my partner believes that I don't believe no matter who I am dating.  If her believing that microwaved food is unhealthy is a problem for me, it's probably not a r/s I should be in because I then have a problem with her belief system.  I can see where agreeing to silly things like this could open the door to more and why it may be good to put my foot down, but I also see where these kinds of things will crop up in every r/s (BPD or not), and I need to choose what is important to me.  Now, if she was asking I do something that costs money or a ton of time or is just unreasonable, my tune would be different.  Or if she was asking me to change just about everything to suit her without her ever changing anything to suit me.  Maybe I am just one to avoid conflict - but I see not using the microwave to heat water as a "put the toilet seat down" kind of problem.

[itsnotme567]

If i made some comment about how to prepare food differently she might think i was degrading her or sometimes she would think the way i did it was great try it like but forget about it the next time.

[Zon]

Thank you all.  I can try prefacing questions with statements to pet the NPD side of her before asking the questions.  maxsterling, that idea is sound and logical, so it may not work.   

Two things make me think it will not work:

• She had a very logical upbringing with both her parents having graduate degrees and herself a logical degree and profession.



• That night she microwaved something for our S3 to warm it from being too cold.  Not very long mind you, so she may have decided length of time matters.

I feel like she was spoiling for an argument to put me in my place.  Is that the same as seeking validation, or is that a different aspect?

[maxsterling]

• That night she microwaved something for our S3 to warm it from being too cold.  Not very long mind you, so she may have decided length of time matters.

I feel like she was spoiling for an argument to put me in my place.  Is that the same as seeking validation, or is that a different aspect?

HA!  I get what you are saying here, that she may have been just bringing up stuff to be argumentative.  The microwave wasn't the issue, the issue was something else, and the microwave was just her issue at the time or the vehicle by which she wanted to act on whatever was really upsetting her.  I get this kind of thing all the time!  In my case, it will be something my GF feels shame over, then will "invent" something so that her emotions are my fault.  For example, the other day she was upset that I was late coming home from work.  The reality is I was home about the same time as I always am.  But, she felt obligated to cook dinner for once, felt no motivation, and was upset with herself for being so lazy.  So when I came home at the same time as usual, she claimed I was late because I did not text her to say exactly when I would be home, and that her not having dinner ready was therefore my fault.  This even though I never asked her to cook dinner and didn't expect or care that dinner was not ready.

I can see how this microwave issue could be the same thing.  She's upset about something else, whether it be you, herself, the kids, the world, her family - who knows.  And rather than own her emotions, she comes at you with an odd request, and when you balk for just a second, that gives her a reason to blame you for her bad mood.  The problem is if you invalidate her, that plays right into her little game. 

I'm much more careful to not be invalidating than I was a few months ago, so when she came after me about being "late", I did my best to put it back on her.  Defending myself would have just shown in her mind that I was just an inconsiderate ass and deserving of her anger.  Instead, I listened, recognized and appreciated her attempt at making dinner, told her that I understand her frustration, then reminded her that I always leave work at 5:15, and get home between 5:30 and 5:45 every day, and sometimes there is traffic or accidents that slow things down.  I told her there were two accidents that particular day, otherwise I would have been home sooner.  And you know what?  She quieted down, and 10 minutes later told me she felt bad about being upset with me. 

[empathic]

Her worries about the microwave are probably very real to her. The problem with dealing with that kind of questions is that validating (or reassuring) can worsen the problem in the long run (at least the consensus seems to be that way in anxiety communities I've visited - I'm not a professional in that area). Reassurance reduces anxiety in the moment but it can create a vicious cycle.

The ideal would be for her to find a way to deal with that kind of worries on her own terms. Easier said than done - but there is help and resources out there for dealing with it.

[Zon]

While all I was thinking when asking her the question was how did water come into the equation, there are various possibilities for why she decided to argue or saw me as trying to argue with her:

• I invalidated her by not trusting her wanting to help me.



• I made her look less intelligent by questioning her.  I doubt this one.



• She was in a mood to fight for whatever reason:
  
  
  
  • She was in a bad mood.
  
  
  
  • She wanted to be right.  NPD trait.
  
  
  
  • She wanted to be the boss of a sort.  Control.

I think most arguments between us are her misinterpreting my words regardless if they are questions or statements.  I would like to know what she is on the Myers-Briggs chart.  I feel the fights initiate from her type being in conflict with mine.  More so, it may be that she sees me in her type, so when I behave a certain way she interprets it as if it was her.  Just to note, I have talked with her before on a few occasions to explain what I am doing is not contradicting but rather understanding on my part.  If I disagree, then I will flat out tell her.

maxsterling, I am going to try the "Wow!  That is interesting." preface for topics like this.  I will still ask my questions but after I appear amazed.  I do recall one time where this did not work.  She told me something, and I stopped what I was doing and looked shocked/amazed before asking a question.  I was very curious about the topic.  The cold stare that followed as I was asking that question made me stammer and go quiet.  I will try anyway.  It may at least lessen the fights.

Work is another sore topic as I can be bad about telling her I will be running late.  I lose track of time somewhat easily.

One difficulty is that she likes to argue but does not handle a person discussing it with her.  It makes it hard to talk over a lot of subjects with her.

empathic, I do not think she was all that anxious over it.  I do agree that validating it too easily can make the next one happen on a lighter subject or make them come more often.  In my case, I was not trying to invalidate nor validate although I quite possibly invalidated her unintentionally.

The next day she heated all of the food in the microwave for all of us without mention of finding anything on that topic.  *sigh*

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Guys - I'm only suggesting what I would do.  I've got a science background.  I know that microwaving food is completely safe, and I think it is silly for someone to believe otherwise.  But I also recognize most people don't have that science or logical background, and I have to deal with this same issue all the time with friends or family.

I wasn't trying to argue the science either, but would avoid altering my behavior to satisfy the issue du jour... .

Unless she has the follow-through most pwBOD lack, there will never come a day when she comes back, admits there's no evidence and all is right with the microwave.

I wouldn't stop microwaving because I see one of two scenarios:

1. The topic gets dropped, eventually I use the microwave and I've invalidated her because I said I wouldn't use it until she uncovered evidence it's safe.

2. The next think is it 'might' not be safe to microwave anything with liquid, since that also can't be 'proved safe' and at some point I invalidate her when I get tired of having to determine what she thinks is ok to microwave and what isn't.

Better to not agree to illogical behavior from the start.