Being invalidated still hurts.

[Louise7777]

Even after being out of the fog, educating myself on PDs and so on, I still struggle when Im being invalidated on a constant basis. I dont mind it here or there, but the pattern is getting on my nerves lately.

Maybe its just a tough time in my life, but Im dealing with some uPDs (Im assuming NPDs and BPDs) and the behaviour is violent (friends advised me to call the police). I kept my cool for some time, but then I was dragged in to that black hole that we all know so well.

Today I went to a free court service in my country where they advise you. The advice I got after 3 years of threats, demands and all sorts of illegal requests was "you have to give in to reach an agreement". To what I responded "giving in just made it escalate, I want a legal action". They denied it. I wonder if they say the same to a battered woman ("accept being punched, at some time your husband will stop". They have NO IDEA on mental illnesses and dont want to do their job (open a case).

So I still feel very frustrated and powerless, every place I turn I get more and more invalidation. Its like blaming the victim for being abuse, Im the bad guy for wanting a legal case.

Just to make it clear, this is not a romantic r/s, its business-related. I thought at this point I wouldnt be so affected by the invalidation, but unfortunately, I am.

Do you go through the same? And how do you deal with it? Thanks!

[DesertChild]

I hear your frustration and I understand how you would want a legal case.

Perhaps the best you can do is to change to no contact? That means to not reengage at all, to change your phone number without telling those people you want to avoid/block them. (I chose to block them) and try to thrive without them in your life. Change your address without telling them either.

The revenge you can have is to do better without those people.

If you don't mind... . How long have you been out of the FOG? I distinctly remembering being angry and wanting revenge soon after I was out--it was a stage of grief. For me, it was really good to let myself have time and distance, but it took a few years for the anger and everything else to subside to a "normal" level. Especially after I learned boundaries and learned to watch healthy ones in action--as well as learned how to not cross boundaries and apologize when I wasn't aware.

For me, also, I learned that asking for acknowledgment for my hurts of my past is a right I have, but the more important thing is to validate myself rather than ask a society to do it for me. Because I know there will be invalidating people in the world that will constantly think whatever I did to "deserve" whatever happened had to be for a "good" reason--but if I'm able to validate myself, then I don't need any legal papers, or anyone else to validate it for me. I just need a strong sense of self to believe in me.

However, I also recognize that when you are just out of FOG that one is desperate for validation and the person with a PD is often trying to hook you back. That is difficult in so many ways. For that, I found a T that helped me by telling me I wasn't crazy and helped me gain tools and insight to deal with the world in realistic ways.

[Louise7777]

DesertChild, thank you for your words, I really needed them.

You made great points. Unfortunately I cant go "no contact". I have a property (an apt rented) and this lady is president of the building for 3 years. Since then hell broke loose on me. Gradually but it did. The more I gave in, the worse it became. They even changed the building´s law to intimidate me (which was illegal and has no effect, but anyway they are trying).

I cant go no contact but I will DEFINATLY disengage. Ill let them say (yell scream) whatever they want and Ill remain calm, tell them I only accept demands on paper or Ill just stop paying attention. I cant really leave cause I need to vote during the meetings and if I leave means Im defeated and not voting!

Actually i dont want revenge, I wanted an authority telling them what they are doing is illegal. I never sued anybody, I was just trying to make it stop. I can still hire a lawyer and do another type of case. Lets see, cause now they are using my parking spot. I feel more and more "invaded" and its very frustrating. Of course they feed from my anger and impotence.

Im out of the fog for a couple of years. But regarding my family. Then I started to notice I had made really bad choices regarding "friends" for example. Had at least 2 uHPD friends. I cut contact. I was there for them but they were never for me, you know the routine. It was easy to let go, I was drained.

This particular lady seems BPD to me. She HAS to have the control. But it is clearly illegal. She wants to prevent my real state agent from entering the building. Im being harassed and intimidated. Its ALL about control. She wants to break me, but it wont happen. Im still finding ways on how to deal. Maybe just listen and not responding? But they will perceive this as accepting abuse... .

"I know there will be invalidating people in the world that will constantly think whatever I did to "deserve" whatever happened had to be for a "good" reason--but if I'm able to validate myself, then I don't need any legal papers, or anyone else to validate it for me. I just need a strong sense of self to believe in me."

This is SO right! I still get VERY affected by the bad behaviour and then invalidation. Its something I have to change. You are completely spot on. Its a waste of energy trying to get validation where there´s none available.

Thank you!

[an0ught]

Hi Louise7777,

sounds like you are dealing with bullies. By giving in a few times you have outed yourself as victim and now the ring leader is using you to elevate herself. Some play along and the silent majority stands by. Don't beat up for getting into the corner - this was your old self - your new self is stronger and can get out again.

These are tough situations and are very difficult to turn around.

So focus on what you control:

  - Yourself!

  - Your vote!

Yourself: You will be triggered by that behavior. You have to accept that - it is the price for staying - and you have to manage the emotions from triggering yourself. Getting angry is playing her game.

Your preparation:  Be very clear what matters to you, what decision and what part of a decision. Be prepared mentally and physically. Be there ahead of time and validate neutral members. Chose you place in the room wisely. Dress accordingly. Do not show weakness. Be fair. Know when to use reason and when to use emotions. Be flexible and wise if e.g. a series of up or down votes would all go against you and a few others on your side consider to use bundles and try to get your key goal into it by showing imitative. Sometimes a clear defeat in a vote can also be a victory if it is clearly wrong so it can be wise not to correct mistakes.

Your vote: You have the right to say no. You may not be able to get a majority behind you but your vote needs to be written down. Make sure you get the minutes and all the paperwork. Know all deadlines.

If you do not agree with the majority and they impact your rights you have the option to go to court. It will cost money but that is probably the price for protecting your rights. As with all boundaries you definitely want to win in court so choose your battles carefully, get a proper council and be realistic.

[fromheeltoheal]

I can relate.  After I left my relationship with a borderline I discovered that what I wasn't getting in the relationship, and wanted and needed, was validation, compassion and empathy.  I certainly got none of those from her, in fact I got the complete opposite; devaluation and abuse.  The good news is now I'm hyper tuned to that, she was the one who pushed it way too far, but now I know what I need, and I've noticed how many people don't meet those needs.  Sometimes, if I know someone cares about me, I can ask for those things and actually get them, and just the fact that I asked and they responded well made us closer.  And some people will never be able or willing to meet me on that level, so they gotta go.  But mostly the focus shift of me focusing on my needs for a change, instead of focusing on meeting other people's hoping to get mine met by default, has been profound.

[Louise7777]

Thank you SO much for your words and advice, an0ught! This is the only place where people tryly understand the extent of a PD context. Some friends support me, of course, but they have no idea how evil some PDs can be.

Yep, bullies. To me, thats high school thing. So it was hard to recognize this is going on between 50/60 yo people! Its kinda pathetic.

":)on't beat up for getting into the corner - this was your old self - your new self is stronger and can get out again." Indeed, I felt cornered all the way. And at that moment I was thinking it will never stop.

Yep to not getting angry, Im aware it likes a great dessert for them. They just rejoice with my despair. I need more self-control, thats for sure.

About voting, you were very right. Ill follow the advice. I did, somehow (I didnt go against some huge refurnishing, somebody from their group was against so I didnt even say anything, I went along).

Actually, there was no voting, just a discussion. NOTHING was written on paper, except that there was a meeting and some minor issues. They didnt write down anything abt the new law or me... . So for practical terms it never existed. Thats why I dont worry abt the new law, its just an attempt to intimidate me, it has no legal effect whatesoever. My country is a very burocratic one, everything has to be documented and announced in a PARTICULAR way, otherwise its void. And they didnt fullfill ANY of the legal requirements.

Of course I can use the new law in court myself, to show their intent and attempt to intimidate, cause they will push those laws on me in the future, Im sure. I really dont like going to court, but Im documenting and keeping records just in case. Its SO insane!

Fromheeltoheal, thank you for sharing your story. Im sorry about your ex. Its really impossible to get any type of validation, isnt it? The good part is we get experience (the hard way, but still) and we choose better partners and friends. There´s a saying in my country that goes by something similar to "you cant ask pears to an oak tree". I guess we have been doing that for a long time, regarding relatives or partners. It only makes us exhausted and frustrated. Picking the battles, like an0ught said, is crucial. They crave for drama but we dont. Im happy you are out.

[DesertChild]

Thank you SO much for your words and advice, an0ught! This is the only place where people tryly understand the extent of a PD context. Some friends support me, of course, but they have no idea how evil some PDs can be.

Yep, bullies. To me, thats high school thing. So it was hard to recognize this is going on between 50/60 yo people! Its kinda pathetic.

":)on't beat up for getting into the corner - this was your old self - your new self is stronger and can get out again." Indeed, I felt cornered all the way. And at that moment I was thinking it will never stop.

Yep to not getting angry, Im aware it likes a great dessert for them. They just rejoice with my despair. I need more self-control, thats for sure.

About voting, you were very right. Ill follow the advice. I did, somehow (I didnt go against some huge refurnishing, somebody from their group was against so I didnt even say anything, I went along).

Actually, there was no voting, just a discussion. NOTHING was written on paper, except that there was a meeting and some minor issues. They didnt write down anything abt the new law or me... . So for practical terms it never existed. Thats why I dont worry abt the new law, its just an attempt to intimidate me, it has no legal effect whatesoever. My country is a very burocratic one, everything has to be documented and announced in a PARTICULAR way, otherwise its void. And they didnt fullfill ANY of the legal requirements.

Of course I can use the new law in court myself, to show their intent and attempt to intimidate, cause they will push those laws on me in the future, Im sure. I really dont like going to court, but Im documenting and keeping records just in case. Its SO insane!

Fromheeltoheal, thank you for sharing your story. Im sorry about your ex. Its really impossible to get any type of validation, isnt it? The good part is we get experience (the hard way, but still) and we choose better partners and friends. There´s a saying in my country that goes by something similar to "you cant ask pears to an oak tree". I guess we have been doing that for a long time, regarding relatives or partners. It only makes us exhausted and frustrated. Picking the battles, like an0ught said, is crucial. They crave for drama but we dont. Im happy you are out.

While I understand your anger, I do have to point out that the reason they enjoy seeing anger outside of them, is because their inner world is ten times worse--the pain that you are feeling from their behavior, imagine that their inner world is even more defensive chaotic and trying to keep it together.

As I observed, most of the time the cycle is to try to externalize the internal pain with uBPD people, so it's not real, but then that causes more pain because it causes isolation, so the person goes out and tries to get more attention in any way possible, and then the pain they feel from guilt, the inability to connect, the paranoia takes over and then the need to externalize that pain and blame others starts again. It can't be easy. Because really, it's not that they enjoy watching YOU suffer. It's a mechanism, as I understand it, to deal with their own hurt that they don't have the necessary tools or outlets to get rid of.

Sympathy doesn't mean you need to have contact with them, but I think understanding a little and having a little compassion without engaging into what they want and need, helps. Kinda like that parental role. You may understand why the child wants the ZOMG candy. You may even sympathize with the kid wanting the candy, even remember, so empathize. But it doesn't mean you're going to actually give the candy.

'Cause it's not really about you to that uBPD person... . you're just a side effect behavior of what ends up being a really terrible mental illness that they don't want to claim because claiming it hurts too much-- (PwBPD often say their inner world is trying to keep it all together under tight control... . trying to feel normal, even if their actions may not be, but finding it leaks without their say so... . )

Might make you feel better to know it's not really personal.

[Louise7777]

Thank you, DesertChild!

I agree that their inner world is chaotic. And from the little I know of them, their lives are chaotic too, so Im guessing they try to control the outsiders cause they really cant control the people in their lives. Of course this need for control cant achieve good results.

"Because really, it's not that they enjoy watching YOU suffer... . " I have to disagree with this. The president lady (the leader of the pack) really enjoyed. I saw her sitting back, arms crossed, a grim in her face. She unleashed her dogs on me and was enjoying the result. For same reason unknown to me, she displays sadistic behaviour. Not sure about the others, one got hysterical, another didnt look at me and ignored everything I said, etc.

In my family I have seen uBPDs enjoy when they inflict emotional pain. I know they are very disturbed but I really cant feel any empathy for them. Im aware of feeling it and protecting myself at the same time, but I dont have this charitable feeling of being sorry for them. A friend told me to pray for them, but I cant. I wont be a hypocrite, this feeling isnt inside me. And honestly, I have never seen my uBPD/ NPD relatives feel remorse or say sorry... . Ever. To me, they do that cause they put their ego, their pride upfront, no matter if it destroys others or relationships.

Thank you for reassuring me thats not personal. I was thinking why me. Its not personal in the sense that thats what they are... . But they chose me as a target and not somebody else (although they have their #2 and #3 on the harassing list).

I found this:

"What triggers bullying?

Where a person displays some of the above traits, bullying can start simply because the target is there, and does nothing at all to provoke it. Bullying may be unwittingly provoked because the target is competent, popular, successful, has integrity or otherwise characteristics that the bully perceives as a threat to their own status, fearing that the target will - inadvertently or deliberately - expose some negative aspect of their activity."

www.bullyonline.org/workbully/amibeing.htm#Target_selection

And this, regardng sadistic personality:

"Sadists love to build themselves up at the expense of others. It makes them feel powerful to wield almost tyrannical influence over those they perceive as weaker or inferior. They derive pleasure from watching others cower, grovel, or struggle in one-down positions."

www.counsellingresource.com/features/2008/11/13/understanding-the-sadistic-personality/

I believe we all dealt with such traits at certain times, but we just didnt know. Sadistic may seem a bit dramatic from me, but I think some traits really apply.

[DesertChild]

Thank you, DesertChild!

I agree that their inner world is chaotic. And from the little I know of them, their lives are chaotic too, so Im guessing they try to control the outsiders cause they really cant control the people in their lives. Of course this need for control cant achieve good results.

"Because really, it's not that they enjoy watching YOU suffer... . " I have to disagree with this. The president lady (the leader of the pack) really enjoyed. I saw her sitting back, arms crossed, a grim in her face. She unleashed her dogs on me and was enjoying the result. For same reason unknown to me, she displays sadistic behaviour. Not sure about the others, one got hysterical, another didnt look at me and ignored everything I said, etc.

In my family I have seen uBPDs enjoy when they inflict emotional pain. I know they are very disturbed but I really cant feel any empathy for them. Im aware of feeling it and protecting myself at the same time, but I dont have this charitable feeling of being sorry for them. A friend told me to pray for them, but I cant. I wont be a hypocrite, this feeling isnt inside me. And honestly, I have never seen my uBPD/ NPD relatives feel remorse or say sorry... . Ever. To me, they do that cause they put their ego, their pride upfront, no matter if it destroys others or relationships.

Thank you for reassuring me thats not personal. I was thinking why me. Its not personal in the sense that thats what they are... . But they chose me as a target and not somebody else (although they have their #2 and #3 on the harassing list).

I found this:

"What triggers bullying?

Where a person displays some of the above traits, bullying can start simply because the target is there, and does nothing at all to provoke it. Bullying may be unwittingly provoked because the target is competent, popular, successful, has integrity or otherwise characteristics that the bully perceives as a threat to their own status, fearing that the target will - inadvertently or deliberately - expose some negative aspect of their activity."

www.bullyonline.org/workbully/amibeing.htm#Target_selection

And this, regardng sadistic personality:

"Sadists love to build themselves up at the expense of others. It makes them feel powerful to wield almost tyrannical influence over those they perceive as weaker or inferior. They derive pleasure from watching others cower, grovel, or struggle in one-down positions."

www.counsellingresource.com/features/2008/11/13/understanding-the-sadistic-personality/

I believe we all dealt with such traits at certain times, but we just didnt know. Sadistic may seem a bit dramatic from me, but I think some traits really apply.

As I understand it, the enjoyment of inflicting pain is ASPD, not BPD.

Even BPD's "witch" mode isn't the exact enjoyment of inflicting pain. The satisfaction is getting their inner world justified. Not that they made someone else hurt. It doesn't mean the actions taken don't inflict pain, but I don't think that it's an active enjoyment of the result. It's an active enjoyment for the feeling they get inside of justifying of how they actually feel.

Just making the distinction--because this is what I understand from the literature from both diagnosed pwBPD, and psychology books.

If they go out of their way to lie, cheat, steal and actively enjoy the result without regret, then you are getting in ASPD territory. pwBPD, feel regret and may feel guilt, but their internal pain outweighs that of what they do to other people. The guilt, turns inward and doesn't resolve because they don't know how to externalize it and resolve it properly. (Which is why apologies often are backwards and seem manipulative to outsiders.)

ASPD, to me, would seem more personal... . that person is actively targeting you are your weaknesses 24-7. Where, I think for uBPD, it's more an unconscious process to get rid of the pain and internal struggle, even when being actively mean.

My mom is more likely to be witch like under stress or when she thinks that the world is attacking her, even if that's totally irrational. She needs a way to get rid of the pain, so finding a nearby easy target was the easiest way out.

This is different from how I understand ASPD works. Where the person doesn't do it out of stress, but does it because the results gives them active enjoyment which is why they target people and actively choose a target. There is revelry in being able to demean that person. And that switch to say it's wrong isn't there to stop them. (A psychologist recently argued it's impulse control).

Active versus the person was in the vicinity and convenient... .

So like a leaking rotting boat versus an archer aiming straight for you.

[Louise7777]

DesertChild, thank you again.

You are right, I guess Im entering the ASPD territory. I wouldnt say they are full blown ASPDs, but surely I recognize some traits (now that you mentioned, I read the definition).

My uBPD relative was never diagnosed, never been to a P, she believes everybody else has a problem, but her. She constantly fights with people, but never to the extent of legal problems. Maybe she is NPD... or has ASPD traits... . Never had remorse, never apologized, she actually enjoys inflicting pain when there are no witnesses to her behaviour. To the extent that I avoid being alone with her. In her case I dont think she lacks impulse control since she can rage 1 minute and the next she´s calm (if a friend of hers shows up, for ex). She knows exactly to whom and when she can rage and yell. Granted, a couple of times she lost it and fought with her friends on the street, but thats rare.

Thank you for clarifying, there are so many traits overlapping here that I change my mind on them being "pure" BPDs... . It matters in the sense that the tools to deal with them may be different... .