My wife is completely dysregulated

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

It's also helpful because it reminds us just how bad things can get.  Sometimes I question why I divorced my exH.  I just remember the good times.  Then I read the twisted manipulation and remember it.  I'm NOT saying you're going to end up divorced or in that situationj at all, but I think, again, it will help you keep a clear head and realize you're not crazy.  And yes, it is good for court.  Even if you just do it once in a while it's better than never.

Can i ask if your journal was useful in court?  How did that come into play?  Are recordings better than journal?

[formflier]

It's also helpful because it reminds us just how bad things can get.  Sometimes I question why I divorced my exH.  I just remember the good times.  Then I read the twisted manipulation and remember it.  I'm NOT saying you're going to end up divorced or in that situationj at all, but I think, again, it will help you keep a clear head and realize you're not crazy.  And yes, it is good for court.  Even if you just do it once in a while it's better than never.

Can i ask if your journal was useful in court?  How did that come into play?  Are recordings better than journal?

[momtara]

I didn't end up in a trial so I never had to use anything in my journal, but I felt a bit more empowered that I had notes available if I needed them, and that they were going back a ways so that I could try to say, "See!  I didn't just make all this up about my husband!  I was writing about it three years ago!" 

I have heard from lawyers and many other people that a journal is a good thing to have.  Calendars too, and anything showing what you did with the kids and when if it's a custody case.  So I was writing about his abuse but also keeping track of taking the kids to doc appointments etc.  For HH, if he's not seeking visitation, then the kid parts might be irrelevant.  But maybe not.  His wife could make false claims and such. 

I've always wondered if journals help, because theoretically, you could sit and write a fake journal over a few weeks.  But it's not very likely that someone would do that. 

I would think recordings are much better - they show the behavior and what did or didn't happen, rather than hearsay.  They are not always admissible and not legal in every state, but definitely record.  Even if you can't bring them to court, a custody evaluator coudl hear them (if you're in a custody case.)

All of this business is very ugly business and not what you want to be doing in a relationship.  It took me quite a while to start recording.  Those recordings help remind me how twisted things were.

I just think that if you don't document things, you'll wish you did, but it will be much harder. 

So it's good if it ever comes up in court, but also just good for you personally.  A pain in the next timewise, but maybe you can even set aside a half hour, get something tasty to drink, and start writing.

[formflier]

 

Thanks for the info. 

I'm going to have about a week off while the uBPDw is out of town for spring break. 

I need to take that time to get better organized... . think through a system.

She has dropped some heavy duty threats about "telling everyone"... . getting me in trouble at my job... . etc etc... . I'm a public figure... . so for the last couple weeks I have tried to get a habit set up so that I record and make notes.

It does feel empowering to go back and listen to them say that I was out of control and yelling... and it was 100% the other way around.

Not sure if this is just for record keeping or if there is ever a point where this might help change behavior... or help in therapy.  Marriage counselor has said they are not a judge and assume everyone is telling the truth... . she said it will be difficult to sort through competing claims. 

Still... . I have to think at some point I'll have to force the issue to contradict a direct lie... . otherwise... letting a farce of a counseling effort go on based on lies... . seems wrong.

[momtara]

I had a similar issue in marriage counseling.  exH would lie.  I could have brought a tape recorder and proved to the counselor that he was lying.  Otherwise it was always he said/she said.  But that would make exH aware that I was recording.  So I never did it.  Better that I could keep recording in case I ever needed to protect myself.  Plus, the counselor might have stopped me from playing the tape, said she's not a judge, etc., and it would have been wasted.  I suppose I could have played it in a private session for her.  I was just always careful about showing my hand in case he found out.  In the end, the counselor couldn't change exH's behavior, and if she was too clearly on my side, exH might have stopped going anyhow.

[Auspicious]

  We must be sick too to get into this mess

HH:

We are NOT SICK.  Your are perfectly NORMAL.

Well, actually, we often are. We can have issues that plug in to theirs.

It can be similar to codependency, with alcoholics.

[waverider]

Not so much as sick, but more flawed or a weakness. That is because we are human and no one is perfect. Often our particular flaws line up with factors that cause us to be vulnerable to the attractions of a pwBPD, and also our inability to protect ourselves properly. Difficulties with creating boundaries and conflict avoidance issues being just two.

Keeping diaries, or just writing stuff down, apart from anything else helps us create structure out of chaos, so that we address things more objectively.

[momtara]

Yeah, I agree about codependency.  Some of us likely do have our own issues.  We may not be cruel and manipulative - may be the opposite, that we love too much or need too much validation or something else. 

[formflier]

Oddly enough she is very public about her recording... . very sporadic... . but everytime she does I invite it... . and say I welcome accountability.

She then will often claim to have recordings proving this that and the other... . that will contradict my stories... . I tell her I'm ready to listen and ready to own up to my improper memory if that is indeed the case. 

Never once has she played them... . and when I ask what they are for the quickly changes the subject... . when I ask why she would bring up having proof if she is not going to use it to correct the record... . same thing... . won't talk about it.

I've never confirmed or denied that I record... . she accuses me all the time... . the proceeds on with acting up.  Like many other facets of this... . it is bizarre.  I would have thought accountability would have moderated her behavior.

I had a similar issue in marriage counseling.  exH would lie.  I could have brought a tape recorder and proved to the counselor that he was lying.  Otherwise it was always he said/she said.  But that would make exH aware that I was recording.  So I never did it.  Better that I could keep recording in case I ever needed to protect myself.  Plus, the counselor might have stopped me from playing the tape, said she's not a judge, etc., and it would have been wasted.  I suppose I could have played it in a private session for her.  I was just always careful about showing my hand in case he found out.  In the end, the counselor couldn't change exH's behavior, and if she was too clearly on my side, exH might have stopped going anyhow.

[hurthusband]

It is nice to hear others here going through same thing.  I mean we can read countless threads about how horrible things each of us goes through, but its nice to hear somebody read something here and get hope on how they can use it.

Part of me on the journal thinks

"If I am really having to keep a journal on who I love to protect myself... should I even be married to this person?"

Now, maybe I am saying "No I will not do that cause thats not truly trusting", but that would just be denying that I do need to keep a journal

Still it goes back to... should we really be with these people?  Is it our illness/co dependency that keeps us with these people?

I agree that we are all flawed, and I do not want it to sound like I am saying we are so much sicker, but we do have flaws.

[momtara]

No need to be so black and white about the journal... .   You could ask that "IF I need to keep a journal, should I be married to this person?" question about a million other things - "If I need to be worried at work that they'll harass me, should I be married to this person?" "If we are both in heavy therapy because of how she treats me, should I be married to this person?"  Think of the journal as something to help you cope while you are going through a rough patch.  Maybe you are thinking of it as a betrayal of her.  Try not to think like that.  You're writing a lot of stuff HERE for US just like if you were keeping a journal, so what's the diff? 

[letmeout]

Writing a journal (or a log as my counselor called it) is for YOU to remember what really happened. If you write it down yourself then you can't deny it.

I read mine a lot while trying to get away from my BPDex because I kept wanting to believe that all the terrible things he did and said really didn't happen. Writing it down kept me on my path to freedom, which is so very hard to do when trying to break away from a r/s with someone who has BPD.

[waverider]

It is because we are not sick that we can take a good look at ourselves and determine our flaws and weaknesses and work on them. Sickness is the inability to do this.

If you think about journal writing as working on yourself and the problems you face you are mor elikely to be centred about it, rather than it just turning into a grudge list.

Whenever I feel the need for a vent, I like to finish it off with asking what did I do about this? What are my choices, and what can I do? Even if the answer is"nothing". Acknowledging an issue in a realistic way and questioning my response to it is a good learning experience. It increases the chance of putting down a more objective and accurate account

[hurthusband]

anyone ever experienced what happened if the BPD got ahold of a journal?

[momtara]

One of the caveats to a tape recorder or journal is to definitely keep it where they can't find it.  Maybe at work.

My exH caught me recording and was pretty upset.  It was while we were already separated, though.  So he's more careful what he says now.  If he were in the same household, don't know what would have happened, but he would have been very angry, rather than looking at what made me start taping to begin with.

He never has found my journal.  He doesn't really look through stuff.  You can always buy a strongbox with a key or something.  Of course, then you have to hide the key!

[letmeout]

My ex knew I was going to a woman's abuse center for counseling long before I left him. I even told him that that the abuse counselors told me to keep a log of his rages and behaviors (I kept it at work so he couldn't get it and destroy it).

I also hoped that if he knew his behavior was being written down, that it would somehow keep him from getting too out of control.

It didn't make one bit of difference. He really had no control over his own emotions and no empathy for those he abused. His brain just couldn't function properly.

[hurthusband]

It didn't make one bit of difference. He really had no control over his own emotions and no empathy for those he abused. His brain just couldn't function properly.

This is what I was thinking.  Has anyone here actually had a relationship that got "good".  I know its relative term, but it keeps sounding like we learn ways to manage and live with who we love, but our lives are still kind of crappy cause of them, assuming we stay.

All these methods seem to be there to protect us and in a way, ultimately gather evidence to protect us on what seems to be an inevitable break up.

I do not want to leave my wife, but I suppose I am trying to figure out is this something that is inevitable?  Is anyone happy here with their marriage?  Obviously no marriage is perfect.  Obviously marriages to BPD will be a bit like living with somebody with a disability, but can it get better?

I do not mean better in that you go from being abused to being just miserable, but thankful you are not abused anymore.  I mean content and happy to be married to these people

[waverider]

Mine is getting a lot better. Partner is still BPD mindset, but can't dump her anger on me. Firstly because it doesn't stick, and secondly because she doesn't feel threatened by me.  But her life is still totally dysfunctional, mine is becoming more functional. Yet somehow we are getting closer at the same time. Conflict has generally gone.

I re read my early posts here and I can't believe I lived like that with no boundaries, it was a kind of hell.

[letmeout]

Are you sure it is getting better or is she just deceiving you to keep you sucked in? BPD people seem to be pro's at deception. Mine could act almost normal when it was going to benefit him. Then he was also like a vengeful little child and would plot a dirty deed just to get even and execute it before you knew what hit you. That was another thing I just couldn't live with anymore.

[formflier]

This is good news to hear... . and I am heartened by the limited progress I am made.

I'm also very aware that I made the situation worse due to ignorance.

Mine is getting a lot better. Partner is still BPD mindset, but can't dump her anger on me. Firstly because it doesn't stick, and secondly because she doesn't feel threatened by me.  But her life is still totally dysfunctional, mine is becoming more functional. Yet somehow we are getting closer at the same time. Conflict has generally gone.

I re read my early posts here and I can't believe I lived like that with no boundaries, it was a kind of hell.

[waverider]

Are you sure it is getting better or is she just deceiving you to keep you sucked in? BPD people seem to be pro's at deception. Mine could act almost normal when it was going to benefit him. Then he was also like a vengeful little child and would plot a dirty deed just to get even and execute it before you knew what hit you. That was another thing I just couldn't live with anymore.

It is getting better because I am getting better, I am more in control of me, I do not fear the BPD. If there is conflict it is usually me who starts it, and ends it. My partner cannot "act normal". There is no normal in her world as we would define it, and I have no delusions of her being better. She is still as sick as ever. Her life is still a roller coaster, but I can choose when to get on and off it freely.

I get frustrated and angry at times, but I am not resentful or fearful.

What I have learned here has given me an umbrella, I am not afraid of the storm. I may get a little damp at times but I dont get drenched. I can get on with my stuff independent of her stuff.

I am no longer living a default, but a choice.

[hurthusband]

how do you go about making her not feel threatened by you?

Mine seems to think I am always trying to argue just by asking a question such as "have you seen my toothbrush?"  I am just asking cause I misplaced it, but she immediately thinks I am accusing her... .

Mine had a breakdown last night cause one of our kids fought on the school bus and broke another kids glasses after the kid sprayed him with a water bottle.  I understand my son was rightfully upset, and I understand it was wrong for the bus driver to do nothing, but my kid was even more wrong breaking the glasses which we paid for of course.

My wife thinks its all due to bad parenting, neglectfulness.  I am not going to say that as parents we do not play a role, but he is also in 6th grade...   some is just trying to fit in which he is having a hard time with.  Nothing we can do that can completely solve that

[formflier]

how do you go about making her not feel threatened by you?

One mindset that I am trying to work on is that I can't "make" anyone feel a certain way... . and they can't "make" me feel a certain way.

That is the same line of thinking that says I "caused" my wife to act badly... or some such thing.


I still admit that normal people can discuss that if you do such and such to someone... . it is reasonable for them to respond in a certain way... .   But... . while I'm still coming to grips with BPD... . I'm trying to move my thinking away from me "causing" anything.

Anyone with thoughts or reactions to that?

[hurthusband]

Things just got really bad.  I am literally shaking...

Just got a bill in mail for shellfish poisoning trip to ER and kids trip few days later after he had oral surgury and got incredibly sick.

$5k... That puts me at $15k in medical bills this year and that is with top tier individual insurance...

Wife is freaking out saying I need to quit both my jobs which are making 6 figures and get a job with insurance.  That I promised to take care of them and everything is going to ___. 

I am scared to death.  I have gone in 15 months from 0 debt to like $35k.  I am scared of that, but now fighting her... I just do not know what to do. 

[momtara]

OK, first, compartmentalize.

Everyone is healthy at this moment.  This is money.  Granted, that's a boatload of money.  I am not minimizing, just hoping you can breathe... .

Now, first, consider that you may going to be able to itemize deductions (maybe?) if a lot of this is from health.  Maybe on state forms and not federal, maybe both.  This won't solve the problem, but at least in the long run it may help to know it.  Maybe you are in for a refund?

Do not quit jobs - especially now! 

The worst that can happen right now is that she leaves you or keeps harassing you.  This is not great, but consider being firm with her because that is the most you can lose, and things may fall apart anyway.

I'd say that you have to tell her that the debt is bad enough without added panic and the idea of losing jobs.  Make a rule - NO blame placing and NO negative suggestions (like quitting jobs).  Who can argue with that?

I wish there was a way to force her to stop being verbally abusive without cops or courts.  Even an in-home marriage ref (if they existed) would help!

This is a bad situation because I know you don't want to leave her. 

Could you do something silly to avoid fighting back, maybe just do a little dance or take a walk? 

Maybe this is the time to call her shrink.  Maybe she needs to walk out of the house if she is going to yell, place blame, and argue.

Maybe you need a rule in the house of no blame placing, and no interfering in or comments about your job.

This is all very difficult.  YOU ARE LIVING WITH A MENTALLY ILL PERSON WHO YOU LOVE AND DON'T WANT TO LEAVE. 

Wish her shrink would do something, different meds or a firm rule.  I know you have tried your best to help her and her children. 

Maybe there is a way to legally separate without divorce?  Maybe not.  That is a step toward leaving.  I really don't know.  I am sorry you are going through this.

[momtara]

Wait, one more thing:

Sometimes you can wait a while, then call the hospital and just say you are not going to pay, and argue it down.  Hospitals notoriously take forever to collect bills.  DON'T PAY IT NOW.  You have more pressing bills.  Let them send the bills to you again.  At some point, in a year or two years, you can either pay, or ask the court for your wife to pay (if it's a divorce or settlement) or something else.  Or you may be able to settle with them and pay less.  It's a fact that often hospitals will take much less.  Their bills are outrageous.

Medical bills take a long time to be collected, esp since insurances take forever to pay stuff and sometimes get it wrong the first time.

Before our divorce, my exH took our son to the hosp for no reason.  It took an hour in ER and it was a $5K bill!  Insurance paid some.  This was over 2 years ago and I ignored all the bills. A  few months ago my insurance realized they made a mistake and paid a little more - that's after 2 years. 

So I sent the hosp a letter saying my insurance paid a significant amount, the visit was an hour, it was outrageous, and I had no more to pay.

Haven't heard from them again.

Don't give up the ship!

[letmeout]

I think you need to take a break before you have a nervous breakdown.

Does your city have a support group for caretakers of loved ones with a mental illness?  Most cities do, call your local hospital to see if they can refer you a local support group.

Ask a lawyer how to go about posting that you are not responsible for any debts incurred by anyone but yourself. That could help avoid her causing you financial ruin.

[waverider]

Yikes, glad I'm not in US. They are horrendous bills. We have have endless medical issues and trips to ER at no cost.

As far as reducing perceived threats go, that comes as an evolving byproduct of reducing conflict by not getting dragged into dramas. Often aggression comes as a form of proactive defensive stance. Eventually they realize you are not going to fight and blame, hence they are not primed for this "pro active defensive stance'

[hurthusband]

The mistake I made is these new emergency room centers started popping up around town.  They take my insurance, and my insurance says copay is $75 per visit.  My assumption was that they might have items used there to towards my deductible, but the actual trip would be covered.  Apparantly not, apparantly the trip still costs me $2700 just to be seen and thats after they billed just to be seen $5400.  When we left the person up front even said that our insurance has a deal where that would be paid for.  Go figure... .

To make matters worse, my son is out of control at school.  He is cutting himself, he is writing on desks, fighting, grades bad, etc.  When he gets home he is fine.  They say its people at school influencing him (teachers that is).  This is spinning my wife further out of control.

I do not know what to do.  My wife is jobless for the most part, abusive, and spinning out of control.  One son does whatever he wants and is with his neglectful father half the time so I cannot do crap.  The other is emotionally a wreck and out of control.

I have no more money to help any of them.  My wife is telling me that I promised her a better life and our life is ___.  We live in a starter home, we are in debt, she has a degree she cannot use, our kids are a mess.  She is going to have to get a fast food management job and she would rather do that and divorce me than live with me. 

I guess I could have chosen a different career path.  I am 36 now... I am not in a coporate job.  I have no clue what company would take me based on the skillset I have currently and my job history and hire me on locally, with no travel, at 45 hours a week, for $100k a year, full benefits...   Maybe commission... but there is no guarantee there. 

Yes, I do not have full benefits in current job, but I have picked up the best insurance an individual can get... I am doing ok making 100k a year.  I do not know what to do about the medical bills.  I do not know what to do...   $28k last year and $15k so far this year even with insurance.  Insurance just does not cover mental health much and not much on dental. 

Yes, she maybe ungrateful and wrong and everything... So I leave?  Then what... I cannot afford a divorce.  I then have kids already shattered even more hurt.  I have threats, and taunts, and guilt from an ex that I love dearly.  I am sure after time I could put myself back together, but what about the kids?  Can I even make it through the initial time?

I want to stop living rather than deal with what my wife and the life I have now is putting me through, and I rather stop living than leave and deal with the guilt.

If I go hospitalize myself, its just more bills and things will only be financially worse when I get out and I will be without a job.

I can only think of one way to stop the guilt.  I cannot mentally handle this.  It is selfish, but I beg God all day everyday to help me.  I cry, i plead, I try my best.  It is just not good enough.

I am mentally weak.  I should have never have gotten involved.  I have either hurt her and done things she has said, or I have exacerbated things with my own weakness with boundaries and mental issues.  I am not mentally strong enough to move on, nor stay put.  If I stay, everything stays the same for all.  There is no hope. 

My job is going down anyways.  I am working two jobs and one is about tapped out and the other has a great future, but is low pay right now.  Both are taking from the other.

I do not want control anymore.  I do not want the burden.  I do not want to feel responsible or the guilt.  I cannot punish the kids

[momtara]

Hurt Husband, please don't do something that will make so many people sad.  There IS a way out. 

First, you have guilt when you shouldn't.  I too have made mistakes but I am trying my best and I am human.  You are in a messed up situation.  If your family is not helping you, then those are just more people who probably made life harder for you growing up instead of helping.  You have not had the help you needed in life and you certainly don't have it now.

DO NOT quit your job. 

I want you to know that you are a good writer, seem sensitive and smart, and lots of people would want to help you and be with you and at least be your friend.  36 is so young!  You don't see a lot of this for what it is.

You feel bad about the kids, but hurting yourself won't help them. 

The thing about BPD is that the person trains their abuse and cruelty on the one closest to them, who can take it.  If you remove yourself a bit, they cannot do that. 

As for not being able to afford a divorce - you could find other ways to separate your finances legally.  Or just file for divorce and don't serve her.  Or dont' do any of that.  You have all those choices.

Another choice is to just do what you want every day.  Leave, go to work, take walks, go to events.  If she wants to file for divorce, it's on her.  She hasn't done that yet.

I don't see why she'd want to take a fast food job and leave you at the same time.  All these people (my exH included) make you think they want to leave you.  SHe depends on you.  I dont' know that she'd leave.  My H used to run away all the time.  Then when I got fed up and filed for divorce, suddenly he begged me to drop it.

You can probably get most of these ER places to reduce their bills.  Just wait a while and then tell them you don't have it.  What are they really going to do?  Nothing!  As I mentioned, lots of them realize they are overcharging, insurance companies may even tell you that they are NOT allowed to charge you past a certain amount.   

You need to realize that a lot of these problems are not your problems.  I know you love the kids.  You can be there for them in a better way if you are healthier.  If you can get a break, take a vacation, or just have a night a week to go out.

Since you have nothing to lose at this point, why not do some extreme things - go to your wife's T and say things need to change.  Go to your own T.  See a lawyer. 

I think the biggest problem is that you love your wife and she has an illness that pushes you away, even if deep down she knows you're the best thing that will ever happen to her.  But you have to be able to breathe in order to be a good person, and to be there someday for others.

No one is dying, so besides that, things can only get better.  They will.

Since you are having thoughts of hurting yourself, please talk to a therapist now.  You deserve better.

[momtara]

"I have either hurt her and done things she has said, or I have exacerbated things with my own weakness with boundaries and mental issues."

You're not an expert in psychiatry.  No one could spend 24 hours a day trying to figure out how to placate a person with mental illness.  You're a superhero for getting this far.

Please let a therapist help you think of good solutions.