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Author Topic: For those who think they love you...  (Read 11486 times)
Tolou
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« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2014, 01:25:40 AM »

2010-VALID POINTS... . AND others make interesting points as well, I respect them all.

I believe it is complicated for anyone to assume or presume that we weren't loved by another, regardless of their actions that were detrimental in one walking away from the relationship.  If a person is BPD OR NPD, does it really make a difference, yes I would say it does... . Mnay people are out there in the world that we encounter on a daily basis with a long list of problems, to avoid them all would have to put ones self in complete isolation and it isn't likely.  I often look at my own role in the relatioship that I was a part of and it has helped me grow a great deal. Reading people thoughts and opinions and various perspectives on these boards has been a major help as well.

I look to myself and realize that I ignored many  red-flags from the very begining, both in their actions and my own for why I chose to ignore those  red-flags. I went through various stages of emotions, and I have remained N.C. even though I have to see her at work atleadt 3-5 times a week.  I didn't go N.C. to be mean, though intially it felt that way.  I did it to protect myself from what was becoming a horror show and the complete inability I had in attemtping any form of cordial contact with her.  With time, going N.C. was healthiest and best for me, as well as my reputation and peace of mind at work.  I hold no bitterness towards her, or anger... . I realize the mistakes I made and have learned from them a great a deal.  After all these individuals have issues that were within them a nd long exisiting before we met, as well as my own issues.  The combination of myself and this person just brought what was in the dark to light, and thats what made everything as loaded and difficult as it was.
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BorisAcusio
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« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2014, 05:42:04 AM »

I know that their love is need based, lack empathy but this was unneceseraly cruel and callous. Textbook BPD or comorbid with something else?

Borderlines lack empathy due to their stunted emotional child minds. So when things aren't about them they tend to panic and act out because they've worked so hard to groom you for their needs. Anything that throws this regiment out of whack changes the script and they can't make those emotional adjustments like an adult. Sometimes they can fake empathy but their empathy chip has been severely compromised.

So if your relatives are dying, if you lost your job, if your pets or your kids are sick….they will feel threatened. If they deem someone more beautiful, richer, smarter: instant jealousy. They are highly unstable and deeply insecure often making them possessive and territorial. Seems asinine to us but in their mentally ill minds not having that control is a  fear and trigger that our minds cannot process this because we aren't mentally ill.

Spell

Thanks for the reply. That is exactly what I experienced. Sometimes I see a great gap between the common empiric knoweledge gathered by the members from day to day interaction with their SO and the more academic one 2010 presented.

First, how can you possibly dehumanize someone who is poking fun of your dead relatives, cheating on you while your father dying of throat cancer and offering absolutely no support? Both happened in real life with members and these are deeds you would expect from a sociopath. They can be intentionally cruel, vindictive. Mine was cheating on her husband for 7 years with at least a dozen men. She proudly told me that had an intense high from having sex with both of them on same morning within few minutes apart. Then torturing the paramour with the details and laughing on the aroused dumb hubby. Completely self-absorbed. In her mind, she had the right to do whatever she felt to fulfill her needs.


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goldylamont
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2014, 08:03:42 AM »

excellent conversation on both sides... .

... .

Excerpt
It's rational human nature to do so but it's also how we easily get trapped in nonsensical BPD FOG, instead of just walking away once we realize, in our own mind, that "the other" is disordered.

Plenty of people on the forum have been left behind before they could walk away. It is a trauma. No one is trapped by their understanding when they seek to understand themselves. It is a fundamental truth to know oneself. There is a reason why the break-down of these relationships are break-throughs for many people. They uncover many repressed fears and "cover-up coping" mechanisms that have been repetitious compulsions for much of early life.  This need to understand is really is a correction of sorts, for behavior that needs to be addressed in order to achieve personal growth. Sometimes we have to learn from our choices even if we try to claim them as mistakes.

i don't think the original person posting this meant that people don't need to self-reflect or learn from the experience. how i understood it is that it can be dangerous for someone who isn't fully detached to count on depersonalized rationalizations for the causes of BPD. it's totally true that a pwBPD may act out of deep fears of abandonment, lacking a sense of self. it's so refreshing to understand this. on the same token the way these fears often manifest is through infidelities, physical and emotional abuse. when detaching we have to keep all of these things in perspective.

... .

Excerpt
Probably anyone who has encountered it has an urge to classify, theorize, analyze, compartmentalize and organize the BPD/NPD behaviors. But does it really matter if our exes were BPD or more NPD?

Very much so.  One suffers from ego grandiosity and the other suffers from ego deficiency.  You can learn allot about yourself if you ask who *needed* to be in the lead.

It takes two to tango. The lead was probably more narcissistically inclined then they would like to admit. Borderlines are not dominant. Narcissists are. Narcissists often do not know they are narcissistic because they have fashioned a false self that is very defensive. Borderlines can be considered quite open and often telegraph their woes to others as a learned helplessness. There’s a difference there that’s very important in recovery, especially if the false self of the narcissist has an identity crisis in the aftermath.

NPD and BPD are completely different yet they complement each other like pieces in a puzzle, especially concerning complementary needs. And yes, there is also a personality theory that Narcissists are attracted to Borderlines for a reason and vice versa.

suggesting that we need to look at ourselves to make sure we aren't narcissists ourselves, , been there and done that my friend. my ex called me a narcissist after we broke up (amongst plenty of other things). this had me scared for a while. i'm a confident person. can be pretty ambitious. i consider myself a leader in many ways... . so when she said this it really hit me hard. so i took the matter to several trusted friends, one of whom i shared a leadership position with... . they basically laughed at the idea and told me i was the furthest thing from being selfish/un-empathetic. definitely gaslighting and projection.

look at ourselves? ya. but 2010 in my case my ex accusing me of narcissism was just my exBPD being loony. puhlease, seriously? i don't take any of her projections seriously anymore, how could i?

something that's never felt right to me is the tendency to refer to any "bad" behaviors of pwBPD as having to be NPD -- is this really true? i see this often, whenever someone refers to bad behaviors and then has evidence that the pwBPD is conscious of it then a likely response is that they have NPD also. i don't know, i'm not an expert. i will say this though--NPD doesn't fit my ex much at all. BPD does to a "T"--but when she hated me? Are you kidding she was completely Narcissistic! I've lovingly referred to her as a lazy narcissist  . There are definitely some behaviors i hear about that sound more N than B, but I'd love to hear other's opinions on this--is it really true that if a pwBPD does nasty things to you and takes pleasure in it that they are also NPD? are we over analyzing something as simple as the fact that they just hate and want to punish you for the moment and this manifests in narcissistic behavior? i know the N traits don't show as much in some pwBPD but sometimes i feel like people want to separate the nastiest behaviors into a separate category; thus alleviating negative stigma from a BPD prognosis.


Excerpt
Excerpt
These disorders overlap.

Not really. They are very different.

the more i think about it i believe this is where some of our thinking may differ. 2010 i think you have a very valid argument that from the perspective of the ego that NPD is completely different from BPD. But from an outside perspective regarding empathy they are quite the same. A NPD abuses with no empathy but they think they are the greatest thing since sliced cheese. Likewise a BPD can abuse with no empathy but they actually lack self esteem and they put on a NPD face to try and cover this up. Still, empathy-less abuse is what their partner sees. Interesting and important to understand the differences in ego though.


Excerpt
Excerpt
These disorders wound. And sometimes they even kill.  Both are illnesses characterized by extreme selfishness.

Maybe we should figure out what our attraction was to this person before we dehumanize them.

i think extreme selfishness BPD is simply a common trait for BPD. not all the time... . actually in my case i would say most of the time my ex wasn't extremely selfish. but overall, she only cared about herself and her own demons. she's a human of course. you know people can get away with almost any kind of behavior if they own up to it and try and change. if someone is extremely selfish though then that's just where they are at--they're still human but no need to sweeten up extreme selfishness. my ex was very attractive in many ways when she was successful at hiding other parts of herself. i was attracted to her for the same reasons i have been attracted to normal healthy women.


Excerpt
Excerpt
NPDs and BPDs both objectify other persons and frequently don't care about the moral, emotional, ethical and relationship fallout of their behaviors except inasmuch as it relates to their own selfish gratification.

Many narcissists are altruists and care deeply about “moral, emotional and ethical” behaviors, much to their own detriment in interpersonal relationships. Borderlines objectify themselves as offerings. This isn’t selfish gratification, but fears of worthlessness. Both NPD and BPD have defectiveness at their core but they have formulated “personalities” that seek to resolve that defectiveness with faulty methods that turn compulsively repetitious.

the first argument says something that is true of behavior while the second is simply an explanation of the behavior. they *do* act out of selfish gratification, *because* of fears of worthlessness. both are true but they aren't opposing ideas. i feel as if we run the danger of using explanations as justifications if argued in opposition to the behavior. both are true and compliment each other in understanding what happens.


Excerpt
“Wills the good of the other” is another way of describing projective identification. Most people involved with a person with Borderline personality, (especially vulnerable narcissists) use projective identification to “outward focus” good as well as have the Borderline carry their bad. This is a form of splitting against the self and others.

good point.


Excerpt
Excerpt
People with UNTREATED mental illnesses like BPD and NPD are completely unsuited to be relationship or marriage partners and should be completely avoided.

These are broad statements that are untrue. But if it helps you to put a sign out, “no BPD or NPD allowed,” then that’s what you have to do. This is all or none, black or white thinking which often overemphasizes the dangers in social interactions and misjudges people.

i will agree that this is too broad. people with PDs exist on a spectrum just like "nons". it is understandable hearing it though from someone who has been hurt by the r/s. i have a friend whose mother i recently found out is dpbd... . and in her words she said "these people shouldn't be allowed to have children". and yes this is an over generalization of course. yet still points to the depth of pain caused by the abuse.

Excerpt
Now here’s the hard part. You can come on to the L3 leaving board and say, I don’t care what people with BPD think or feel. It’s impossible to tell! Stop asking questions.  I don’t think I should change anything about the way I am. It wasn’t me. Why should I be the one who is introspective? Thank you, I’m not looking for any feedback.

Should the rest of the forum stop asking questions too? Or do we make the sober realization that sometimes, people do things for a reason. Those reasons can be fear or control or grandiosity to cover feelings of defectiveness. Those reasons can become a working hypothesis. They become patterns. Those patterns easily create defenses (coping mechanisms.)  And the coping mechanisms can be faulty and repetitious, done over and over again, rote, without consciousness without any change or development or personal growth. AND that goes for all of us in life until we have an experience that changes us. Let’s call it an awakening.

We all have coping mechanisms, denial, anger, splitting others when they make us angry, but yearning for this lost object that represented all good before they became all bad. That’s worth investigating and digging deeper (at the very least) so we don’t go out and fall into the same pattern again. It’s not enough to say you’ll avoid anyone who gives you pause. You have to discover the reasons why you find this person attractive in the first place. In fact, you may even be drawn to them for a reason that you need to discover something about yourself.

Now is not the time to stop asking questions nor is it the time to be avoidant. You cannot avoid every single person with a personality disorder. They are co-workers, Doctors, teachers, postal workers- they are everywhere. The best thing you can do is understand yourself first.  Idea

totally agree on the self reflection. i will say though that i'm not so comfortable sharing everything about my thoughts of self reflection here as sometimes i kind of feel like an outsider in this regard and don't want to offend anybody. my thoughts do peek out in my writing though. and i've gained invaluable insights from others, both about myself and BPD as a result.
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BorisAcusio
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« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2014, 09:45:33 AM »

suggesting that we need to look at ourselves to make sure we aren't narcissists ourselves, , been there and done that my friend. my ex called me a narcissist after we broke up (amongst plenty of other things). this had me scared for a while. i'm a confident person. can be pretty ambitious. i consider myself a leader in many ways... . so when she said this it really hit me hard. so i took the matter to several trusted friends, one of whom i shared a leadership position with... . they basically laughed at the idea and told me i was the furthest thing from being selfish/un-empathetic. definitely gaslighting and projection.

look at ourselves? ya. but 2010 in my case my ex accusing me of narcissism was just my exBPD being loony. puhlease, seriously? i don't take any of her projections seriously anymore, how could i?

LOL, we really shouldn't take it personally. My ex called her husband emotionally unavailable and distant. No cudling, caress, kissing, that's why she cheated on him, at least from her own admission. Now I know that she set up herself as a victim. I was shocked when found out about his living conditions when they still lived together. The guy has been sleeping in a separate room for 5 years, on an old matress, no furniture just a small CRT TV . First I thought that she was right, the ex hubby must have had some serious problems.

When we eventually hit the devaluation stage. She started to call me wussy/little girl for being emotionally available. No more kissing, cudling. Those were the things that she missed and loved at first and missed from the previous relationship. We couldn't even sleep in the same bad anymore so I found myself sleeping on the floor at my own place. With them, history repeats itself.

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« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2014, 09:56:30 AM »

Probably anyone who has encountered it has an urge to classify, theorize, analyze, compartmentalize and organize the BPD/NPD behaviors. But does it really matter if our exes were BPD or more NPD?

Excerpt
Very much so.  One suffers from ego grandiosity and the other suffers from ego deficiency.  You can learn allot about yourself if you ask who *needed* to be in the lead.

It takes two to tango. The lead was probably more narcissistically inclined then they would like to admit. Borderlines are not dominant. Narcissists are. Narcissists often do not know they are narcissistic because they have fashioned a false self that is very defensive. Borderlines can be considered quite open and often telegraph their woes to others as a learned helplessness. There’s a difference there that’s very important in recovery, especially if the false self of the narcissist has an identity crisis in the aftermath.

NPD and BPD are completely different yet they complement each other like pieces in a puzzle, especially concerning complementary needs. And yes, there is also a personality theory that Narcissists are attracted to Borderlines for a reason and vice versa.

I have had the hardest time trying to figure this out because my ex was a waif type who was very private.  I know she has strong BPD traits but i also saw narcissistic tendencies at times.
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Skip
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« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2014, 10:15:31 AM »

i don't think the original person posting this meant that people don't need to self-reflect or learn from the experience. how i understood it is that it can be dangerous for someone who isn't fully detached to count on depersonalized rationalizations for the causes of BPD. it's totally true that a pwBPD may act out of deep fears of abandonment, lacking a sense of self. it's so refreshing to understand this. on the same token the way these fears often manifest is through infidelities, physical and emotional abuse. when detaching we have to keep all of these things in perspective.

It's great to host an intelligent discussion like this.  Thanks, everyone.

To add two points (not to debate any)... .

Stages of Healing   It was a revelation to many here to read Roger Melton's opinion about the cycles of a failed "BPD" relationship - to learn that the contrast in attitude that many experienced with their partner was really about stages in a relationship.

https://bpdfamily.com/tools/articles.htm

Part of the debate here is because of a similar evolution - the stages of healing. Our attitudes change as we evolve in our healing.

Depth of Healing  Some of us evolve our healing further than others.  

There are thousands of case histories here and I'd define the endpoints of the spectrum as those that shrugged their relationship off as the "conning of a normal healthy person" and those that stopped and reevaluated who they are in a relationship and reached for greater emotional maturity.

I've been here long enough to see some members repeat their experience with new partners or see them jailed for abuse themselves, or end up on Dr. Phil, or even kill themselves.  I've seen others change and go on to have live better lives, some even resuscitate broken families and marriages.  We have cards and letters saying this placed saved a family, a child, a life.

You don't have to guess (or take my word for it) as to which "style" ended up where, just read some of the older members files.


Healing and making sense of this is hard.  Very hard.  Why?  Because we all approach it with fear and protective bias.  In some cases, or at certain times, the bias blinds us from learning what we really need to learn - or to see ourselves as we really are - to heal and grow.

If you want it (healing) you have to find the bias and break through.
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LongGoneEx

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« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2014, 07:42:50 PM »

Excerpt
People with UNTREATED mental illnesses like BPD and NPD are completely unsuited to be relationship or marriage partners and should be completely avoided.

These are broad statements that are untrue. But if it helps you to put a sign out, “no BPD or NPD allowed,” then that’s what you have to do. This is all or none, black or white thinking which often overemphasizes the dangers in social interactions and misjudges people.

2010, Thank you for your input. Rest easy that I never implied that nons shouldn't introspect or take responsibility for our relationship behaviors. In my mind, love and responsibility go together. But I'm of the view that such introspection is severely hampered whilst one remains attached to a mentally ill person whose actions envelope one in fear, obligation, guilt (FOG) and possibly even in physical violence/financial abuse/substance abuse/legal problems. So we will have to agree to disagree on the matter of untreated pwBPD/NPD as marriage and relationship partners. I stand by my view that they should be completely avoided in such roles. Clearly not everyone has freedom to just "walk away" from relationships with pwBPD/NPD (e.g. family members, custody of children) but if they do, my advice remains "walk away". Not walking away entails a very real danger of harm to self and harm to a pwBPD/NPD if we become their enabler.

I get a sense that you've amplified, rephrased and de-contextualized some things I've written to support the implications that my views are those of a dichotomous thinker, an "vulnerable narcissist," and someone who is prone to depersonalize the mentally ill.

So to be clear: I distinguish between mentally ill persons and their (unacceptable) behaviors.  As I wrote in my initial post, pwBPD/NPD are persons. Pathologically selfish persons, to be sure, but persons. Meaning they have inherent dignity, equal to my own, by virtue of being persons like me. In the language of philosophy, they have ontological worth. And in the language of philosophy (from whence I borrowed phrases like "wills the good of the other": [real] love responds to the ontological worth of "the other," rather than to the qualitative values of "the other". For this definition to apply in relationships with pwBPD/NPD, both partners would need to have an understanding of what constitutes "the good" and "the other". It's hard enough for a completely rational person to be clear about these things - they're among the deepest questions of life/philosophy/metaphysics. It's questionable, at best, that someone with an untreated serious mental illness can correctly conceive of these necessities for genuine love.

To your points about science: The nuances of human behavior have been contemplated and recorded since the invention of writing. Across many cultures, times, and intellectual paradigms. There is healing truth and value in these accounts. The scientific method to which you refer is a Western intellectual creation of relatively recent vintage. It implicitly makes many assumptions about an (objective) reality and about human beings. Modern psychological theories and the (maleable and somewhat controversial) DSM classifications aren't the only ways of looking at BPD and NPD behaviors. Meaning that NPD/BPD behaviors predate the scientific method and so clearly they have an existence irrespective of modern scientific categories. That these behaviors have recently been organized by the DSM under the label of BPD/NPD etc. is all very convenient but my original point was that there's a vast philosophical/metaphysical literature dealing with questions commonly discussed here. Questions like what love really is, how does real love manifest in one's ACTIONS, what true friendship really is, selfishness and self-centeredness, false selves, ethical relationship behaviors, moral obligations in relationships, "willing the good of the other" in a relationship, and so forth. By examining that literature it becomes quite clear how meaningless is a pwBPD/NPD's FOG-inducing use of the words "love," "I love you," and even "let's be friends." Clearly you adhere to a positivist paradigm in your critique of me. That's fine provided you're aware that there are other systematic and logically tenable views of these matters.

@Skip, goldylamont, thank you for your insightful comments.

Interesting dialog, everyone!

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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2014, 11:37:55 PM »

Like Skip said, great stuff.   In debates regarding absolute "truths" and also those in which the parsing of subjective reality are involved I typically default to "The truth is in the middle".  It's both instructive and great theater to juxtapose the ontological, experiential realities of BPD against the clinical ones and for the purposes of my own recovery as a "non" -- the end game for the majority of us here I imagine -- I think it's important to ingest a potent distillation of both.  As a layman non-clinician, the reality of my recovery is based largely on the experiential model of my interaction with my pwBPD but that model is well buttressed with an understanding of the developmental psy behind it.  In other words I can apply towards my recovery as much from Fairbairn, Kohut, Masterson or Miller as I can from my own (non-clinical) experience with my pwBPD or the thousands of case histories so generously presented on this board.  So for the recovering non like myself it's a buyer's market and instruction is everywhere, valid and each carrying its own applicable truth.  Go to where your truth is and apply it to your recovery but realize every truth may not apply to you.  So in this sense both LGEX and 2010 are right.

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« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2016, 11:51:02 PM »

Guys I think this is one of the most powerful threads on these forums, I hope the mods don't mind but I'd like to give it a bump for all the newcomers. This was truly a great discussion.
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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2016, 03:11:13 AM »

Really good read! Thanks for bumping it up Ahoy  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2016, 03:29:49 AM »

Thanks for your comments BPDspell, 2010 and Skip. Very helpful.
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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2016, 07:32:51 AM »

I just wanted to comment on what my spouse said to me... .In the beginning it was "puppy love", I believe... .like a movie. He was very romantic, but allot of it was for show. Lots of public kissing to make himself look good. Later I believe he was just keeping up the act, treating me like a queen and always texting and sending me "kisses" and saying I love you. In the end he told me he would always love me since I was such a big part of his life. Then it was down to I miss you... .and he would start to cry and then abruptly stop when I would start. It almost seemed to me it was a way of conjuring up emotions in me to see if I still had them. Now he feels this girl is "the mother of my child" kind of thing... .in fact, that is what he said. Everything he says seems to come out of a movie. Since I do believe he studies movies and uses their stories, it is very possible! I think they love you in a romantic way in the beginning and then more like you are a parent or family member later. I think they do not know what true love is for sure by their nasty behavior. Were we loved? Not really, you don't abuse, lie to or cheat on someone you love. I believe they don't know how to love, it's all about what we do for them and how we make them feel. If they see us feel loving, then they feel love. When we begin to see the mask drop, I believe our behavior changes and they are sensitive to that. Then they think we don't love them and then they change too. It's impossible for anyone to remain in the "puppy dog love" phase forever, especially when being mistreated. That's when it all falls apart. Which would happen in any relationship. I think they think of us later if we really meant anything to them... .we are "missed" and idolized when gone. They will try and have a reason that it is best we are not together, since they live in their own storybook world and need to justify their actions. We did love, but we thought we were in reality... .but in reality, abuse doesn't equal love. We can move on knowing we did all that we could do, loved this person the best we could and we know now that we love ourselves enough to not allow this sort of relationship to take us over ever again.
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« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2016, 07:57:03 AM »

Longgonex you hit the nail right on the head with this. I am in total agreement 100%! My ex can't well now love anyone. I knew and meet my ex in late 85 early 86. Became friends at 12 and dated at 14. There were no signs at all if she was mentally sick and i believe she wasn't. She genuinely loved me. Then my Mom broke us up threatened and lied to my ex and months later she went into a mental hospital for months. Never saw her again after that . She then forums me on FB and told me she still loved me. Well push / pull I love u I don't. She told me she did t know how to love. She didn't want to hurt me. But she did. She told me she was bipolar but her behaviors never added up with that disorder. I researched and it came up as BPD. Well I tried helping her and she threatened me with a no contact restraint order. The sad part is she herself told me she can't have men use her body like that anymore she just can't. So she knows she is ill but then goes back to denying it. Very very sad.
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« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2016, 11:50:35 AM »

Thanks for bumping.

Reading through the responses, esp those from 2010, I was one again left wondering how BPD and NPD can be so different as to be apparently mutually exclusive and yet still occur as comorbidities.
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« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2016, 04:09:06 PM »

steelwork, ive wondered that myself. someone suggested to me that you might get a good mental image with the "witch" subtype of BPD. i dont know if thats the answer, but it makes sense. as well as keeping in mind both are spectrum disorders.
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« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2016, 04:59:47 PM »

Loves, loved, will love, doesn't matter. How were you treated, are treated, will be treated... .THAT will tell you everything you need to know. Everything else is just noise.
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« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2016, 07:28:28 PM »

Putting a definition on love is an adult relationship is subjective in itself. But I do agree that "love" for a BPD is clouded,  selfish and doesn't conform to a non's standard.  However,  I know I love my children and my family,  unconditionally.  I honestly think that's the only real love that exists.
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« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2016, 07:44:29 PM »

I'm saddened by the number of people here who torment themselves with: ":)id my ex pwBPD really love me?"  I suspect that when we can quickly answer this question with a definitive NO, we're on the road to recovery.

I know the original post is old, but I have something to say to this in particular. I still can't give a definitive 'yes' or 'no' to the question of whether my ex loved me, but I'm not ruminating over it any more either. For me, a big part of my recovery was learning to accept that there are some things I will always be uncertain about. This is one of them. I need to go on and live my life. You can't get a definite answer to everything in life, and sometimes it only hurts you to chase after one.

Maybe he loved me. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he tried his hardest. Maybe he didn't. The only things I can be certain about are that I loved him, I tried my best to make it work, and I got terribly hurt. That's all I need to know. Sometimes I still crave reassurance, crave answers, but with distraction and mindfulness and a few cognitive-behavioural tips and tricks I'm able to get myself moving on again. I don't fully understand the periodic table, or how the electromagnetic spectrum works, but those things don't cause me any pain at all - maybe one day my ex will be added to the list of completely benign unknowns. 
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« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2016, 09:38:47 PM »

I know, right?

Thanks for bumping.

Reading through the responses, esp those from 2010, I was one again left wondering how BPD and NPD can be so different as to be apparently mutually exclusive and yet still occur as comorbidities.

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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2016, 02:53:02 AM »

Hi all,

It's a good thread and worth re-reading

I would question the conclusion that NPD and BPD are mutually exclusive

From what I've read co-morbidity is extremely common and the different disorders can be a lot more fluid that the one might initially imagine.

In her book The Narcissistic Borderline couple Joan Lachlkar's, a highly respected and experienced therapist writes;

"Since narcissistic/borderline traits, states, and characteristics are not clear entities and tend to vacillate, diagnosis can be elusive. Ironically, when the borderline progresses in treatment, he or she becomes more narcissistic (there is nothing worse than a narcissistic borderline). In addition, an individual may exhibit both narcissistic and borderline characteristics simultaneously, further confusing the issue. It is challenging enough for therapists to diagnose individual personality disorders"

Some therapists describe borderlines as failed narcissists

The diagnosis and treatment of PD is not a science. It's a worthwhile attempt to frame and understand a range of complex behaviours that often feel contradictory and incomprehensible.

It can help by giving us a frame of reference to process and heal from traumatic relationships but it's not cut in stone.

Reforming

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« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2016, 08:28:42 AM »

I find this post is just a great general discussion on BPD.

With regards to the love argument, my 2c was that, yes I was loved. But BPD love is not the type of love any of us want or are searching for. It's immature and stunted.

I think my definition of love can best be described as Shrek... .Shrek has layers like an onion and healthy love is built on layer after layer of compassion, trust and respect.

In conclusion:

BPD - love=need

Non BPD - love=Shrek
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« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2016, 03:15:02 AM »

Excerpt
In her book The Narcissistic Borderline couple Joan Lachlkar's, a highly respected and experienced therapist writes;

"Since narcissistic/borderline traits, states, and characteristics are not clear entities and tend to vacillate, diagnosis can be elusive. Ironically, when the borderline progresses in treatment, he or she becomes more narcissistic (there is nothing worse than a narcissistic borderline). In addition, an individual may exhibit both narcissistic and borderline characteristics simultaneously, further confusing the issue. It is challenging enough for therapists to diagnose individual personality disorders"

Reforming

When you cherry pick a quote, it’s important to understand the context in which it was intended. You are on Page 50 of The Narcissistic / Borderline Couple: New Approaches to Marital Therapy which is a primer for therapists dealing with Borderline and Narcissistic COUPLES in marital therapy. That means two people, in a room, with a third person acting as an arbitrator. The question for the arbitrator is who is grandiose and who is deficient in ego. It is a perfect storm of triangulation.

The opening sentence left out from this quote was:



“The profile of the narcissistic/borderline couple constantly shifts as one partner stirs up unresolved issues in the other.”


Unresolved issues. Issues that haven’t been solved with both parties. Not comorbidity- but shifting profiles while in distress.

So what she’s saying is that it’s very difficult to assume who is more narcissistically inclined during a crisis. For instance, a narcissistic man whose Borderline wife is cheating on him will most definitely have a narcissistic injury that makes him appear vulnerable and unstable while his Wife, fed by her persecution complex will confuse self esteem with anger and puff herself up to appear grandiose- but she is only mirroring her new lover and the idealization he feels. This is the chameleon nature of BPD and what makes marital therapy so difficult because of the offset triangulation.

Narcissists, on the other hand do not adhere to people, instead they work tirelessly to avoid attachment. So to see a Narcissist come into therapy absolutely crushed is a bit offsetting, leading the therapist to wonder whether he has an unstable sense of self or merely suffering an intense narcissistic injury.

Lackar includes chapters on the differences between the narcissist and the borderline (as well as subtypes) and how they fit together in pathology. Her writing seeks to help the therapist find clues on how to determine who is narcissistic and who is borderline and she provides conclusions at the end of each chapter but she also makes the statement that if a Narcissist is suffering a narcissistic injury, they can certainly appear similar to a Borderline. And if a Borderline is puffed up and pretending, they can certainly appear narcissistic. But both are situational states and not rigid.

Nowhere in her book is the word “Non” used by this board.

So if we take from her chapters, we see several key points-

“In this chapter we have strived to shed additional light on what keeps narcissistic couples together and to develop a further understanding of their intricate interactions. Narcissistic/ borderline couples express their pain by blindly repeating their dysfunctional behaviors without learning or profiting from experience.

“The partners in these beleaguered relationships are in complicity with one another as they move through their psychological dance, create their unending drama and forge an ultimately unsatisfying bond.”

“Couple therapy is an experience that occurs among three persons: the two partners and the therapist. It is a deep emotional experience involving intense communication and deep seated feelings that starts with the profound challenges of a primitive relationship and matures into the awareness of healthy dependency needs and mutual respect. With each session the curtain opens and the opportunity for a new script begins.”

Now, having read that- you might think, great! If I can get him or her into therapy we could just work it out and resolve all this.

Unfortunately, that is an “other directed” response, and one where “The partners in these beleaguered relationships are in complicity with one another as they move through their psychological dance, create their unending drama and forge an ultimately unsatisfying bond."

It is an unsatisfying, primitive, false bond that is self-referential for both the narcissist and the borderline. The narcissist tries to get the Borderline in control and the Borderline fights against it. The more the narcissist fails, the more he suffers a narcissistic injury. The more the Borderline fails, the more he suffers a persecution complex.

“The narcissistic / borderline couple forms relational love bonds through attachments to internal and external objects that ignite the flame to fuel them.”

(“Internal” are the beliefs-*what you think about* and “external” are the people- who you connect with concerning your beliefs.)

“The local transmitter is the process of projective identification or dual projective identification, which casts the roles of the partners as designed or pre-scripted through their attachments to internal objects."

(That’s a fancy way of saying that other people are used to represent how we feel about ourselves- well before other people are known to us by name.)

So if the narcissist is really insecure about himself, but hides it behind his appearance or physique or money or job description, his narcissistic injury concerning his unsatisfying, primitive false bond while only serve to remind him of how he is a failure- something he always feared yet tried to cover up with a false self. So he will fight to the ends of the Earth for another chance to redeem himself.

And the Borderline, with their primitive and fantastic self-delusion, clings in parasitic fashion and then hates with distorted perception, failing to trust and maintain loyalty while the narcissist hopes for repair- absolutely crushes the narcissist.

Yes, Cluster B’s do have allot in common, but it’s their pre-scripted roles that show us differences to their internal reference. In other words, it doesn’t matter what false self people show outwardly to the World- what matters is why they created that false self and what it really means as a method of coping and survival and why the “other” party (that’s you and me and everyone on this board) finds it so attractive.  Thought

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« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2016, 08:12:10 AM »

2010: Thanks for this really interesting summary.

But I'm wondering more than ever: how is it that a person can have both BPD and NPD (i.e. Be "co-morbid"? What could that mean? Are we actually talking about a pwBPD who sometimes mimics NPD behavior and vice-versa? If so, spectrum (which seems to mean degree of morbidity?) would have nothing to do with it.

Then there are the othrr PD combinations. But these two seem particularly opposite.
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« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2016, 10:25:45 AM »

Hi 2010,

sorry if I'm hijacking the thread a little bit... .but some time ago I asked you (via PM) your general take on HPDs, mostly about the differences with BPDs.

So, I want to seize this opportunity to ask you again your general view on HPDs Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2016, 12:39:05 PM »

Ugh this just made me sad. But I know it's very true. Sad for me sad for him. Sad.
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« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2016, 12:39:57 PM »

They seem opposite to me too.

2010: Thanks for this really interesting summary.

But I'm wondering more than ever: how is it that a person can have both BPD and NPD (i.e. Be "co-morbid"? What could that mean? Are we actually talking about a pwBPD who sometimes mimics NPD behavior and vice-versa? If so, spectrum (which seems to mean degree of morbidity?) would have nothing to do with it.

Then there are the othrr PD combinations. But these two seem particularly opposite.

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« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2016, 01:29:07 PM »

They seem opposite to me too.

2010: Thanks for this really interesting summary.

But I'm wondering more than ever: how is it that a person can have both BPD and NPD (i.e. Be "co-morbid"? What could that mean? Are we actually talking about a pwBPD who sometimes mimics NPD behavior and vice-versa? If so, spectrum (which seems to mean degree of morbidity?) would have nothing to do with it.

Then there are the othrr PD combinations. But these two seem particularly opposite.


I am not a clinician, so let's start there.  And, I've read that pwBPD attract caretakers, co-dependents, and/or pwNPD, so the two do seem distinct.  That said, my wife was all over the spectrum for both NPD and HPD to go along with her BPD.

As far as NPD:

Requiring constant admiration to feel the bottomless pit of her emptiness? Check

Having a sense of entitlement, as in spending every dollar she could get her hands on because she deserved to live a certain lifestyle ?  Check

Taking advantage of others to get what she wants?  How often do we talk about manipulation and deceitfulness on these boards again?

Unwilling to recognize the needs of others?  Isn't lack of empathy a common, recurring theme here?

Envy?  Oh you better believe it.

I don't know how many boxes need to be checked under the DSM 5 or what distinguishes disorders, but looking back, my wife checked all but one box for BPD and checked enough of the DSM 4 criteria for NPD to make me wonder if a dual diagnosis is somehow possible.  

Again, not a clinician, but the overlap is something I experienced personally.  Also, my wife suffers from officially diagnosed conditions that overlap in odd ways with personality disordered characteristics, so it's just a grab bag of issues
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« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2016, 06:29:08 PM »

They seem opposite to me too.

2010: Thanks for this really interesting summary.

But I'm wondering more than ever: how is it that a person can have both BPD and NPD (i.e. Be "co-morbid"? What could that mean? Are we actually talking about a pwBPD who sometimes mimics NPD behavior and vice-versa? If so, spectrum (which seems to mean degree of morbidity?) would have nothing to do with it.

Then there are the othrr PD combinations. But these two seem particularly opposite.


I am not a clinician, so let's start there.  And, I've read that pwBPD attract caretakers, co-dependents, and/or pwNPD, so the two do seem distinct.  That said, my wife was all over the spectrum for both NPD and HPD to go along with her BPD.

As far as NPD:

Requiring constant admiration to feel the bottomless pit of her emptiness? Check

Having a sense of entitlement, as in spending every dollar she could get her hands on because she deserved to live a certain lifestyle ?  Check

Taking advantage of others to get what she wants?  How often do we talk about manipulation and deceitfulness on these boards again?

Unwilling to recognize the needs of others?  Isn't lack of empathy a common, recurring theme here?

Envy?  Oh you better believe it.

I don't know how many boxes need to be checked under the DSM 5 or what distinguishes disorders, but looking back, my wife checked all but one box for BPD and checked enough of the DSM 4 criteria for NPD to make me wonder if a dual diagnosis is somehow possible.  

Again, not a clinician, but the overlap is something I experienced personally.  Also, my wife suffers from officially diagnosed conditions that overlap in odd ways with personality disordered characteristics, so it's just a grab bag of issues

Ouch yeah mine ticked a few of those boxes too. I'm a believer mine is more in the BPD camp, but these traits were certainly exhibited at different times in our relationship, especially near the end.
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« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2016, 06:55:23 PM »

Excuse the very long quote below (typing on phone makes editing long quotes too hard), but if you read what 2010 says, you can see that he's talking about the deep structures of NPD and BPD in a way that makes me wonder how they could coexist in one personality. In terms of object relations: Narcissists subsume objects. Borderlines offer themselves as objects to be subsumed.

Truthfully, that last part is hard for me to grasp. My understanding is that pwBPD lack internal objects and latch onto others for that reason--but in any case it seems like the basic personality dynamics would make them mutually exclusive.
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« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2016, 07:30:40 AM »

I wish some day I'd get an answer to this.
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