Holidays and conflict

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Jan 17th 2014, I got an interim order. I am returning to court on May 6th for review.

I'm going to make some changes and include holidays, vacations etc. I'm not sure how I did it, but I managed to convince the ex on New Years, in giving me 50/50 custody. I'm in Canada, and it is very difficult to have sole custody, the courts like to give 50/50. I think that she knew that she had no choice.

So, when I was in court with L, I simply jumped at the opportunity and didn't get the details of the holidays in the court order. I simply took it. It's a mistake, that I will tend to next month. But we did have an agreement regarding Easter w/ the kids.

Pre-court order, post court -order, it's all of the same. Usually about a week before a holiday. The ex flares up and starts with her conflict. She will make it difficult with trying to schedule anything, because she changes what she says with dates, times etc... . and projects, and blames, and says that I said it. I don't think that I have to explain, it's preaching to the choir.

I have become more indifferent, I have depersonalized her behaviors and aggressions. I don't try to analyze too much (anymore) as to what's going on in her life. I could be wrong here, but I think holidays are an excuse to create conflict, because she is feeling anxiety and stress in her life, she tries to project those emotions on me. It's about HER. This last week, I'm guessing it's because the new bf is moving in. I don't think too much as to why anymore, because it's a disorder and I can't think or make sense of everything from a disordered POV.

Having said that. My questions are.

How do members cope? Maybe I can gain some insight from other members.

I'm worried because she is interpreting the court order and saying there are things in there, which truly aren't. I have a feeling if she goes ahead with her interpretations, i,e. not respecting drop off times etc. that there is not much that I can do.

I'm saying that because if I ask for Right to First Refusal, I can put it in the court order, if she chooses to not follow it, oh well tough luck. It refutes the purpose of placing it in the court order in the first place. I was told this with the initial parenting order that I started June 2013, by the court clerk btw, I will talk to my L before court next month.

It's discouraging around the holidays, is also what I'm saying. It wasn't fun when I was with her during the holidays, but it's worse now, that she left with replacement. In the last 13 months, I can expect a week before a holiday, she starts with her conflict and it really puts a damper on all of the holidays. It's like clockwork. It causes anxiety and stress. It's about the kids, spending time with family and enjoying the holidays.

I know there is legal stuff in this post, maybe it should be over in legal, but I'll talk to my L, I have a grasp on it, holidays need to be hashed out in court.

I would like to get feedback from members with coping. Thank you.

[Mutt]

Jan 17th 2014, I got an interim order. I am returning to court on May 6th for review.

I'm going to make some changes and include holidays, vacations etc. I'm not sure how I did it, but I managed to convince the ex on New Years, in giving me 50/50 custody. I'm in Canada, and it is very difficult to have sole custody, the courts like to give 50/50. I think that she knew that she had no choice.

So, when I was in court with L, I simply jumped at the opportunity and didn't get the details of the holidays in the court order. I simply took it. It's a mistake, that I will tend to next month. But we did have an agreement regarding Easter w/ the kids.

Pre-court order, post court -order, it's all of the same. Usually about a week before a holiday. The ex flares up and starts with her conflict. She will make it difficult with trying to schedule anything, because she changes what she says with dates, times etc... . and projects, and blames, and says that I said it. I don't think that I have to explain, it's preaching to the choir.

I have become more indifferent, I have depersonalized her behaviors and aggressions. I don't try to analyze too much (anymore) as to what's going on in her life. I could be wrong here, but I think holidays are an excuse to create conflict, because she is feeling anxiety and stress in her life, she tries to project those emotions on me. It's about HER. This last week, I'm guessing it's because the new bf is moving in. I don't think too much as to why anymore, because it's a disorder and I can't think or make sense of everything from a disordered POV.

Having said that. My questions are.

How do members cope? Maybe I can gain some insight from other members.

I'm worried because she is interpreting the court order and saying there are things in there, which truly aren't. I have a feeling if she goes ahead with her interpretations, i,e. not respecting drop off times etc. that there is not much that I can do.

I'm saying that because if I ask for Right to First Refusal, I can put it in the court order, if she chooses to not follow it, oh well tough luck. It refutes the purpose of placing it in the court order in the first place. I was told this with the initial parenting order that I started June 2013, by the court clerk btw, I will talk to my L before court next month.

It's discouraging around the holidays, is also what I'm saying. It wasn't fun when I was with her during the holidays, but it's worse now, that she left with replacement. In the last 13 months, I can expect a week before a holiday, she starts with her conflict and it really puts a damper on all of the holidays. It's like clockwork. It causes anxiety and stress. It's about the kids, spending time with family and enjoying the holidays.

I know there is legal stuff in this post, maybe it should be over in legal, but I'll talk to my L, I have a grasp on it, holidays need to be hashed out in court.

I would like to get feedback from members with coping. Thank you.

[david]

I only communicate through email so I have documentation. The first few years were the same for me. I think I was told on this site negative engagement is still engagement. It takes time to sink it but it is very true.

I think some of it is boundary testing. I have a pretty ironclad custody order. It spells out all holidays. Thanksgiving break, Christmas break, spring break are all spelled out. If it is an even number of days it is spilt 50/50. If it is an odd number of days the extra day rotates from year to year. All school holidays are in it, birthdays, summer holidays, etc.

Today was a half day for our two boys. I normally pick them up at school on Monday. I send an email to the school in the moring when S10 is a car rider. Our oldest is in 9th grade so that is not an issue. Ex sent S10 to school today with a note saying S10 was to take the bus to her place. The school has figured her out and called me. I explained I was picking S10 up just like I do every Monday and that was good enough for them. S10 got in the car and said he was confused because his mom said he was taking the bus even though it was Monday. I explained everything was straightened out and that I always send an email. No need to talk about it anymore.

Last Easter week I was supposed to have the boys for Easter. Ex complained, all in an email, that she didn't like the traveling back and forth for the boys. It went on and on. I offered that she have the boys the entire weekend last year since the weekend was her normal weekend. This year Easter falls on my normal weekend. I offered that we just switch Easter these two years. She immediately refused and said we had to follow the court order. So last year we did just that. This year she offered the boys to me for the Easter weekend including Easter day even though it is her year for Easter. I agreed. Bottom line both Easters the boys are with me. I don't try to figure it out anymore. I have better things to do with my time.

[david]

Also, as the kids get older they figure it out too. Makes things easier.

[Mutt]

I only communicate through email so I have documentation

I did this too up until a couple of weeks ago, for nearly a year. She refuses to communicate by e-mail. She says she wants to talk on the phone, so if she hears something that she does not like, she can hang up. I was worried because I cannot document. I don't think that I can enforce e-mail, unless it was a boundary? I subscribed to voicemail to text with my provider (only have cellphone, cancelled landline) and it puts the voicemail into text and gives me a .wav file. The downside is that she often calls my local routing number for voicemail and directly leaves the messages there. If I need to talk to her, she leaves it to VM and there is a lot of back and forth, it's a much longer process IMO to get something done. Usually she lets it go to VM, but I cringe those times that she picks up.

My L says that he doesn't see conflict, because she's a different person in court. But I'm going to play the voicemail messages over the last week, I must have 15-20.

I think some of it is boundary testing. I have a pretty ironclad custody order. It spells out all holidays. Thanksgiving break, Christmas break, spring break are all spelled out. If it is an even number of days it is spilt 50/50. If it is an odd number of days the extra day rotates from year to year. All school holidays are in it, birthdays, summer holidays, etc.

I'm going to talk to my L, but what are the repercussions if she doesn't abide?

Also, as the kids get older they figure it out too. Makes things easier.

Thank you.

I don't try to figure it out anymore. I have better things to do with my time.

Good point.

It simply boils down to the details in the court order to take out the ambiguity, less ammo, and minimize conflict. Disregard thinking about why she does it, it just is. I've been too soft.

[david]

I filed contempt of court charges in the beginning when she tried to alter the court order. I filed prose after the first one so it only wasted some time. Ex realized I meant it and doesn't stray from the order. There have been times that the order didn't make sense and either she or I changed things a little. Ex complained in emails when I did it but she never took me to court. The thing is what I did made sense and I am sure every judge that had it presented to him/her would have agreed. An example, I picked S10 up at school a few months ago. The nurse called me saying he was ill. It was a Thursday. I normally pick the boys up on Thursday and take them to their moms around 9:30 pm. However, when we got home he just wanted to go to bed. I had no intention of waking him up and dropping him off. I sent an email. Ex complained I wasn't following the court order and threatened to come with the police. I figured she was just blowing smoke up her ___. I didn't even reply. The next day when he woke he felt just as bad and I took him to the pediatrician. I emailed her letting her know what I was doing. She didn't show. He had strepp and I got his meds and took him home. He felt better the next day. Ex is a nurse too. I don't think any judge would find me in contempt for letting a 10 year old sleep when he was sick.

I would like ex to have a good relationship with our boys but that, I do not believe, will happen. She has kids from her first marriage and one is total NC with her. I get along great with them. We vacation together with our two younger boys. I've been to my one SS's fiances parents house dozens of times. Ex has never been there once. It is what it is. I didn't cause it and I ain't gonna fix it because I can't.

[livednlearned]

Next time you are in court, maybe ask that communication takes place by email, and phone only in an emergency. She should not get to decide how you communicate, especially if she is prone to misrepresent what is being said. If she continues to call your phone, and if you have an iPhone, there are a couple of excellent software programs that will record everything -- txt, phone, vm, images.

I found that quoting the order and sending it by email was a good way to eliminate some of the back and forth, but you need email for that. It didn't minimize the f-bombs and insults, but it made it much easier to refer to the boundary in black and white.

Over time, you'll see what her particular boundary busting patterns are, how she chooses to ignore the custody order. The more ironclad the order, the more details there are, the better for you. Then, if she doesn't abide, you file motions for contempt. You can file multiple motions at once to save you money. If your goal is to keep 50/50, the contempt motions are mostly symbolic, at least in the beginning. They might lead to tighter language, more consequences, stricter details about this that and the other thing. But if you want to change any part of the custody order, the motions for contempt start to show a pattern to the courts that works in your favor. Judges tend to allow repeated acts of contempt, but in my court, they will eventually cart someone off to jail when a person is repeatedly willful about ignoring the orders.

I think over time we become more depersonalized to the behavior, and figure out what kinds of documentation makes sense. The key is to be very, very solid about boundaries. Nothing fuzzy. No negotiating. No favors. I turned down business trips to amazing places because the cost of negotiation and conflict was too high.

Always have a plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D to counter the different ways she will make the schedule high conflict for you and the kids. It becomes second nature over time.

[david]

I started email communication only years ago. Ex resisted. I eliminated texting on my phone and would not answer my cell. She left ranting messages. If something pertained to the boys I replied with an email. Eventually I did get email communication only in our court order. All changes to our custody order must be done through email. Both parties must agree in an email to the change. Once a change is agreed to it can not be changed unless both parties agree to the additional change. That is how our order is written. That has been three years now. It takes getting used to but it can work. I think I have only called ex 4 times in those three years and left voicemails. That is allowed in an emergency. Ex calls on a regular basis and leaves voicemails that have little to do with the boys. I ignore. About two years ago ex started calling me from various phone numbers. I no longer answer numbers I do not recognize. I had about 4 or 5 extra numbers on my phone when she left voicemails back then. Most of them told me about things that are wrong with me. I am so used to it I no longer think about it. Communication with ex is difficult if I try to talk about anything besides pick up times or similar things. I still get emails going on and on and my reply is something like, "I will pick the boys up at 6 pm on Saturday, November, xx and will drop them off at school on Monday morning." What I have noticed is that ex is going through the same accusations today. Since I haven't been physically near her without an audio recorder or a video recorder (school meetings, doc appts, etc) and I say very little in those situations she is playing the same broken record. Years ago I took the accusations personally. I am detached enough now that it just doesn't phase me anymore. Because she is so predictable things are much easier for me and the boys. That takes time.

[Mutt]

Thanks for the feedback david and livednlearned. You made me think. I think the issue atm, is that I'm not being assertive enough. From what I have read in these cases, is to not be passive, or aggressive, but to be assertive. I think that it was in Bill Eddy's book. I think that's one big issue, that I'm not applying and it needs to be done.

I honestly don't like my L, but I'm stuck with him for now. If I had a choice, I would of overlooked him and looked elsewhere. It's not that he's a bad lawyer, he is not aggressive enough. I feel like I'm triangulated by the ex, when he takes her side. I've told him, I've sent him e-mails with her aggressive behaviors and the last time we where in court, I was  trying to nudge him, and I think I came off as too aggressive. He said "from what I've seen from your wife, I don't see it, she's aggreable" That's an indicator that he has not read the messages that I sent him. I gave him Bill Eddy's .pdf pamphlet that's around the site somewhere, and I don't think that he has read that. I recall the first meeting in his office with him, my first question, "are you familiar with BPD? and he answers yes. Later in the conversation, I asked him, how do I get full custody if she is mentally ill. He said "well she's not diagnosed, she would be "showing symptoms" I knew from the get-go, he didn't know anything about BPD and I was going to have problems.

To be blunt, my ex cleaned me out before she left. No savings, credit cards maxed out, and I borrowed money for her to pay off her cc. She knew what she was doing, she was putting me in a position, that I could not defend myself. Couldn't borrow money from family or banks. I'm still broke.

Having said that, I managed to get a referral to legal-aid here in Canada. I'm not sure what you would call it down there in the States. It's subsidized, I pay them a portion of the money back monthly. It wasn't my first choice, it was this or go pro-se. She had an L automatically from this service, and she had hers back in June and I didn't get my L until November. There where a lot of court dates that I had to adjourn on my own, waiting for L to be assigned.

That's the backs-story. For now, I realize that this is not going to be the first time, that I'm going to go up against ex in court. The kids needs are going to change realistically, and I honestly cannot get anything done through her. I have no choice, everything is going to have to go into black and white. I'll save some money and prepare myself, retain a better lawyer the next time.

It's extremely difficult in Canada to get full custody, but to prove that she is mentally ill, I could do a practice note 7 or practice note 8. It costs 30k, and you need to prove that you have the money. We would both get psychologically assessed. It's rare for full custody here, they like to give 50/50 more.

It absolutely needs to get done, to have the holidays hashed out in paper.

I filed contempt of court charges in the beginning when she tried to alter the court order. I filed prose after the first one so it only wasted some time. Ex realized I meant it and doesn't stray from the order. There have been times that the order didn't make sense and either she or I changed things a little. Ex complained in emails when I did it but she never took me to court. The thing is what I did made sense and I am sure every judge that had it presented to him/her would have agreed.

The guys over in legal foreverdad and matt, mention contempt, I have not talked to my L about it. I'll talk to him before court next tie. The impression that I got, is that I could ask in the court order "ex does not have adult males sleeping over, doing drugs etc, when the kids are in her care" but the court clerk that prepared my parenting order said, you can ask, it doesn't mean that you will get it or that she will follow it.

As I said, I'm not impressed with L, I send emails, never get a response, call his assistant, don't get a response. It's something that I could of asked him with contempt. I'm not a priority to him. The only time that I get to see him or talk to him, is when court is in session and it's for a few minutes, right before we go up.

Next time you are in court, maybe ask that communication takes place by email, and phone only in an emergency. She should not get to decide how you communicate, especially if she is prone to misrepresent what is being said. If she continues to call your phone, and if you have an iPhone, there are a couple of excellent software programs that will record everything -- txt, phone, vm, images.

I found that quoting the order and sending it by email was a good way to eliminate some of the back and forth, but you need email for that. It didn't minimize the f-bombs and insults, but it made it much easier to refer to the boundary in black and white.

I'll ask that communicate is only by e-mail. I'll advise her that again, if she wants to communicate, she can send me an e-mail and only use the phone for emergencies. I think david is right, I think she is boundary busting, and I didn't see it for what it is.

No, I have a Windows Phone. I use an app for a recorder. I didn't check for an app to record phone conversations. I know on my old Blackberry, there was one that I had used, but it had to be on speaker phone only. I subscribed to "voicemail to text" with my service provider. It gives me a transcription of her voice message in an email, it also attaches a .wav (much like mp3) with her voice message. Every time that she calls, I try to have most of her calls go to voicemail, so that it's documented.

Ex calls on a regular basis and leaves voicemails that have little to do with the boys. I ignore. About two years ago ex started calling me from various phone numbers. I no longer answer numbers I do not recognize. I had about 4 or 5 extra numbers on my phone when she left voicemails back then. Most of them told me about things that are wrong with me. I am so used to it I no longer think about it. Communication with ex is difficult if I try to talk about anything besides pick up times or similar things. I still get emails going on and on and my reply is something like, "I will pick the boys up at 6 pm on Saturday, November, xx and will drop them off at school on Monday morning." What I have noticed is that ex is going through the same accusations today. Since I haven't been physically near her without an audio recorder or a video recorder (school meetings, doc appts, etc) and I say very little in those situations she is playing the same broken record. Years ago I took the accusations personally. I am detached enough now that it just doesn't phase me anymore. Because she is so predictable things are much easier for me and the boys. That takes time.

Can I ask you both a question david, livednlearned?

My impression is that this is parallel parenting in style, and not co-parenting. It's only been about a year since the separation and she has is the exact same, if not worse, when she left. As you put it david, a broken record.

My question is, how long have you been split? Is there such a thing as co-parenting w/ pwBPD? Can it be done? My ex is a broken record, that I cannot negotiate with, unless it fulfill her needs and entitlement. I don't want to think in absolutes, but I really don't think that this is going to change. I was doing parallel parenting, and I've been trying to come down to to co-parenting, and I'm really struggling.

[david]

My ex ran away with our boys in summer of 2007. At the time, I thought she was going through a difficult time because her mom passed away. She was all over the place. A family friend and doctor suggested bipolar. I started reading about it and it just didn't fit. Several of the books also had sections on BPD. I read one of them and the light bulb went on. I then found this site, then a T for me. In 2007, 2008, and part of 2009 everything was a battle. If I said left she said right. I tried coparenting but the only thing that ever worked for me was going to court. That was expensive. I then started parallel parenting and making sure I had good boundaries. I stuck to my boundaries. I slipped up in 2010 by not having a witness when I went to pick up our son. I was arrested because of false allegations. I then purchased a video camera and an audio recorder. I am never near her or her residence, when picking the boys up, without both of them. She also knows I have them. I made sure she knew and that helped control her behavior towards me. That was very telling for me.

Ex still disagrees with everything I suggest, propose, etc. I pretty much stopped suggesting anything for the last two years. What I have noticed since then is her emails, not all but some, have become less accusatory. We are currently going through a custody eval and she has tried to control her emails. They are better but when she does dysregulate they are worse.

My ex emptied our house of everything back in 2007. The electrical wall covers (a total of 47 / I know because I had to purchase all new ones), the toilet paper holders in all bathrooms. The only thing she didn't take were things nailed or screwed into the house. She left our bedroom furniture, a wax candle of a bear with it's arms outstreched saying "I love you this much", and a journal of hers which pretty much confirmed BPD. I still have the candle because it makes me laugh. I have no idea where it came from but it does remind me how crazy things were. She emptied out all our banks accounts, she forged my name on the back of several checks written to me and took that money when the checks cleared. I am still digging out from the financial mess. I was able to borrow money from family so that was a big help. I went to the law library, support groups for fathers, talked to several attys. I slowly figured out the rules of the game and started playing better. Document, document, document. When I am in court I have a stack of paper an inch or thicker. I have one paper on top describing the pile beneath. The judge has no desire to sort through it all. He gives it to ex and lets her decide whether she wants to sort through it all or just agree with the top sheet. She has always agreed with the top sheet because she knows it is true. I make sure it is introduced as evidence since that carries more weight for decision making and appeals. It also makes things smoother in court. I have a few ponts to make and I overwhelme with evidence. All my points are focused on the boys best interest. I do not get involved in mudslinging at ex. She has repeatedly attacked me in conferences and courtrooms. My atty deals with that. I usually stare at the wall or doodle when that is going on.

I decided back in 2008 that the kids were the most important part of all of this. I focused on them and what they needed. I learned to listen better then I ever did before, learned to validate their feelings, and continued parenting them. I also was very careful when talking to them about what was going on. I never lied to them or sugarcoated anything. I was careful on what I did say though. I would tell them that certain things I would not talk about until they got older and if they still wanted answers to ask me then. I never put their mom down or criticized her in front of them. Ex tried to tell me how to parent and get the kids in the middle. That was oftentimes the most difficuly balancing act back then. That doesn't happen as often now. It still does but S15 doesn't get sucked in anymore. S10 is still figuring that out. They have different coping strategies and they both seem to work most of the time.

My first atty seemed to go through the motions and collect her money. Eventually I found another atty. I am more confidant on the rules of the game so I am better able to guide my atty. I know what he needs and I give it to him. I prepare most things and he either uses it exactly as I give it or modifies it to follow the rules. He bills me at the same rate as the other atty but since I am doing more work my bills are less.

Figuring out what the courts want to see and presenting that to them works the best. 

[livednlearned]

Can I ask you both a question david, livednlearned?

My impression is that this is parallel parenting in style, and not co-parenting. It's only been about a year since the separation and she has is the exact same, if not worse, when she left. As you put it david, a broken record.

My question is, how long have you been split? Is there such a thing as co-parenting w/ pwBPD? Can it be done? My ex is a broken record, that I cannot negotiate with, unless it fulfill her needs and entitlement. I don't want to think in absolutes, but I really don't think that this is going to change. I was doing parallel parenting, and I've been trying to come down to to co-parenting, and I'm really struggling.

It might be different when you have an ex who threatens you, or who makes false allegations -- people here who have been in the red zone tend to develop a titanium backbone about boundaries. It's hard to co-parent when you fear what that person will do to you.

But there are people here who have high-maintenance coparenting strategies. Emphasis on the high maintenance. I think you have to be extremely good at radical acceptance and wise mind, and it probably helps if you have healed enough to fully detach. BPD is more severe in some people than others, and some exes figure out tools or techniques that work for their particular BPD sufferer, and manage to make things work.

You've been through a lot in a short period of time -- stress takes a huge toll, and parallel parenting is a way to shore up some strength and reset the boundaries. You'll get stronger over time, and can experiment with what works, what doesn't, and you'll start to see the specific way her BPD patterns manifest in raising the kids. As my values became more and more clear, it made it easier to focus on what was best for S12. Having those values be clear made it easier to figure out my goals and objectives for S12. Then I developed strategies, both therapeutic and legal, to stabilize things for S12.

I've been out of my marriage for 3.5 years. My situation is different, though, because I have full custody, and right now, full visitation. I sometimes think about documenting S12's life and sending pictures and videos to N/BPDx, since he is about to lose access. N/BPDx will send nasty emails and insult me, but it doesn't affect me anymore. I can focus on my value, which is for S12 to feel he matters to N/BPDx, and so I need to create a bridge so that even the possibility exists. Does that make sense?

It will be different for you, depending on what your ex is like. And of course, most of the time our decisions are extremely difficult. We might have to choose between escalating the conflict (which affects the kids adversely) because they are being neglected, or alienated (which affects the kids adversely). [/quote]

[Mutt]

You've been through a lot in a short period of time -- stress takes a huge toll, and parallel parenting is a way to shore up some strength and reset the boundaries. You'll get stronger over time, and can experiment with what works, what doesn't, and you'll start to see the specific way her BPD patterns manifest in raising the kids.

You're right. Rome wasn't built in a day. I'm trying to hard with everything right now, and it has been a lot in a short period of time. I found it much easier with parallel parenting, it helped me to further detach, and to get to indifference. It was calmer, sure from time to time, it felt like a stormy weather system was coming in. It's more often, more frequent. I have to look out for me. Kids need a healthy dad. I'm glad that I posted livelearned and david, you gave me food for thought. I really needed it.

I've been out of my marriage for 3.5 years. My situation is different, though, because I have full custody, and right now, full visitation. I sometimes think about documenting S12's life and sending pictures and videos to N/BPDx, since he is about to lose access. N/BPDx will send nasty emails and insult me, but it doesn't affect me anymore. I can focus on my value, which is for S12 to feel he matters to N/BPDx, and so I need to create a bridge so that even the possibility exists. Does that make sense?

Yes it makes sense.

It will be different for you, depending on what your ex is like. And of course, most of the time our decisions are extremely difficult. We might have to choose between escalating the conflict (which affects the kids adversely) because they are being neglected, or alienated (which affects the kids adversely).

The biggest challenge I think with ex, is her alienating me from the kids. It was there when we where together and it's more apparent now.

I'll give you a bit of an idea.

She does not seem to like that the kids enjoy themselves with dad.

I pick up the kids Friday evenings, I made it a little tradition, that it's movie night at the house, I make them popcorn, drinks, snacks, the works. I've been doing this for months (since she left) but now she does her own movie nights with the kids before I pick them up approx 18:30 on Fridays. She must of got wind of that through D8.

The kids wanted to see the LEGO movie, she had asked me if I would like to take them, I said sure. The kids were really excited about seeing the movie, and she simply took them and didn't say anything to me. D8 told me this on Friday that I pick them up. I was really upset, angry.

D8 really loves going out with her Big Sister, she talks about her often, I can tell it brings here a lot of enjoyment. I told my ex that I had no issue with my D, for her to hang out with her etc. D8 was talking about her at supper-time on Monday. D8 said mom said that you said that I was not allowed to see Big Sister when I'm with you. I never said that, that's parental alienation.

Other recent behavior, I get a strange email from ex last night. She says she's thinking about she is considering the following. The pretext is that. She's been gone just over 12 months. She was a SAHM, she went back to work for just above minimum wage. My kids were watched by ex SIL, and her friends, over the summer of 2013. She found a mom running a daycare out of her home, not certified I believe. S2 was there all day, S6,D8 would stay there before school and after school. They where just put into daycare a couple of weeks ago, but in regards to last nights email, she says that she is considering staying at home, if I want on my time, she can watch the kids, but I give her just under what I'm currently paying to daycare to her. So how much change do you want the kids to tolerate? I haven't responded to that. Her entitlement triggered me.

[livednlearned]

The biggest challenge I think with ex, is her alienating me from the kids. It was there when we where together and it's more apparent now.

I'll give you a bit of an idea.

She does not seem to like that the kids enjoy themselves with dad.

I pick up the kids Friday evenings, I made it a little tradition, that it's movie night at the house, I make them popcorn, drinks, snacks, the works. I've been doing this for months (since she left) but now she does her own movie nights with the kids before I pick them up approx 18:30 on Fridays. She must of got wind of that through D8.

The kids wanted to see the LEGO movie, she had asked me if I would like to take them, I said sure. The kids were really excited about seeing the movie, and she simply took them and didn't say anything to me. D8 told me this on Friday that I pick them up. I was really upset, angry.

I think of this level as paper cuts. It stings, it bleeds, but there are ways to deal with it. Every time something like this happens, the way you respond models super important behavior for your kids. Try to detach from what BPD mom did, and look at the infraction as a way for your kids to see a healthy adult dealing with disappointment in a healthy way.

There is a sweet spot between asserting yourself and putting the kids in the middle, and it's tough to land on the sweet spot every time. But keep practicing. If you had arrangements with the kids to see the movie, then they went with their mom, and it hurt your feelings, it's ok to say so. "Guys, I was looking forward to seeing the movie with you. Mom ended up taking you, and I'm glad you got to go. I hope you liked the movie and I can't wait to hear all about it. It hurt my feelings that I didn't get to see it with you -- your mom said I was going to take you -- but I know we'll find another movie we can see together." You don't want your kids to think you don't have feelings -- there's a good chance BPD mom is sending them that message, by treating you as though you don't matter. You can make a gentle correction to this myth, then show them how it's ok to share how you feel, deposit it, then move on. It's not their job to comfort you, or feel guilty, but it's healthy for them to see someone say in a very reasonable way that your feelings were hurt, and this is why, but you can still connect and then move on.

Eddy covers this in Don't Alienate the Kids. There's really good stuff in there that explains why you have to model or assert your emotional truth. And do it in a way that doesn't push the kids away. If they feel like you're putting them in the middle, or dumping a big heap of messy feelings on them, they lose big time. But you can share how you feel without doing any of that, especially if you manage your feelings in a healthy way. I'm at the point now where I can tell S12 how I feel and he's very receptive -- he knows that I am not holding him emotional hostage, and that when I talk about what I'm feeling, it will be short and safe. He's learning how to do the same -- he can say how he feels, acknowledge where it's coming from, recognize that he just needs x or y or z, and he'll be ok.

D8 really loves going out with her Big Sister, she talks about her often, I can tell it brings here a lot of enjoyment. I told my ex that I had no issue with my D, for her to hang out with her etc. D8 was talking about her at supper-time on Monday. D8 said mom said that you said that I was not allowed to see Big Sister when I'm with you. I never said that, that's parental alienation.

A good way to deal with this is to say, ":)8, how did that make you feel when mom said that?" Let D8 get used to figuring out what is true for her. She might say, "I felt bad because I thought you might say I can't see her anymore." Then you say, "Am I doing anything that makes you feel I don't want you to see Big Sister?" Say she answers, "No, I don't know why mom said that." Then you can end with, "I don't know why mom would say that. Last week I told her I was glad you had Big Sister in your life." That's it. If you get angry and deny that you said it, or say that mom is not telling the truth, D8 will feel bad and confused, and will have missed an opportunity to figure out for herself what the truth is. BPD parents are often very invalidating of kids, so our job is to help the kids learn to trust who they are and what they think. Again -- you are given a challenging situation, and instead of letting it trigger you, take a big breath, listen to D8 telling you something that she is worried about, and maybe even upset, and focus on how she is feeling. Just another opportunity to practice being emotionally healthy with your D8. Your ex is going to give you a lot of opportunities to practice!

Other recent behavior, I get a strange email from ex last night. She says she's thinking about she is considering the following. The pretext is that. She's been gone just over 12 months. She was a SAHM, she went back to work for just above minimum wage. My kids were watched by ex SIL, and her friends, over the summer of 2013. She found a mom running a daycare out of her home, not certified I believe. S2 was there all day, S6,D8 would stay there before school and after school. They where just put into daycare a couple of weeks ago, but in regards to last nights email, she says that she is considering staying at home, if I want on my time, she can watch the kids, but I give her just under what I'm currently paying to daycare to her. So how much change do you want the kids to tolerate? I haven't responded to that. Her entitlement triggered me.

If she was not BPD, this sounds like a normal kind of discussion. Mom gets paid a little over what it costs for daycare. Why not stay home with the kids so they aren't with a stranger. Nothing unusual there. And yes, her entitlement is triggering, no question.

But aside from this, my concern would be the kids spending more time with the same person who is trying to alienate you from them. The more time she has with them, the more opportunity she has to align them with her. [/quote]

[david]

My ex does the copy what dad is doing too. It used to bother me in the beginning but I changed my outlook. Ex doesn't do anything with the boys so if she is copying me then she is doing something with them. So I view that as a win. I can figure something else to do with them so that is not a problem. I will still do things I thought of first if it makes sense but I have no problem if their mom does something with them. What I have noticed is that the boys, since they talk to me a lot, indicated that it is not as much fun when mom does the same things. From listening to them it sounds like she is a robot just performing the superficial task (say going out for ice cream) but their is no real interaction, dialogue, etc during that time. It has happened enough that I do believe I have a good read on it. The boys noticed as they got older. That is also the time ex has the most difficulty. She is more capable when sher is dealing with an infant. They are totally dependent on her and she is in charge. The problem I have noticed (I have ss's/ they are her kids from her first marriage) is that as the chidren got older ( 9 and up) they start to think mopre fro themselves and question things. It is normal for all kids to do. It is a developmental thing. When that begins ex gets more angry because they don't just listen and do what she says. That is where the dysfunction starts for her.

I get "strange" emails still. I usually don't reply because, in the past, I have noticed most communication like this goes haywire. I believe it was on this site that someone said negative engagement is still engagement. If I reply to a "strange" email and we go back and forth we have engagement. It's like throwing another log on the fire. If I ignore it usually goes away. I save all emails and have over 3,000 from ex. I used to get around 50 a month. I used to reply to them all. I only reply to ones that are directly about the boys and extra time with them. Now I get around 20 a month and have seen the boys about 30 extra days during each of the last two years. I reply to about 5 emails a month. It takes practice.