Upcoming holiday, travel

[empathic]

We have been invited by my sister to stay at their holiday home for a week in june. I know this is a minefield so I have been postponing talking to my wife about it, but I decided to do so yesterday. I was actually surprised that the usual dysregulation didn't happen, instead she rather calmly said that "I'm not really up for that, it was very stressful for me the last time" (and that is an understatement, as the entire trip a few years back was practically ruined).

(I'm trying not to dwell on all the times I've been more or less forced to visit friends and family of hers, as that will drag me down a lot)

So I'm now thinking that I'll go there myself with one of our kids. They'd both love to go, but I want to lessen the feelings of abandonment, and I have a short trip planned with the other kid already. To be honest it will certainly be a lot more relaxing to not have my wife with me there. When I start planning it, I would not be surprised if she suddenly wants to go, as she's afraid of missing things.

In a normal relationship that kind of arrangement would not be that big of a deal right? I'm trying to think of ways to word this idea the right way.

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[lemon flower]

In a normal relationship that kind of arrangement would not be that big of a deal right? I'm trying to think of ways to word this idea the right way.

I wouldn't say that!  I've seen several "normal" couples going totally loose (and even splitting up) when travelling comes to the issue...

- it can be about two opposite characters (she wants the cliché shopping trip he wants to go mountain climbing)

- it can be about money (she wants to save some money for new furniture he wants to spend it all on a journey to the end of the world), etc

- often there's one partner who absolutely despises travelling, who just wants to be home always and forever... . you'd say : no big deal, just go with someone else, but apparently this is a mountain-high problem to many people; what if he betrays me with an exotic beauty when he's gone, what if she betrays me with the neighbour when I'm gone  

- then there are those who are afraid to stay home alone, fearing they can't manage on their own (especially older, needy men who claim their wifes for every breath they take  

believe me this is basically not a BPD-related problem but it can be even more eccessive with a BPD-partner, no doubt... .

in your story it's also because she doesn't relate to your family isn't it ?

maybe she's right to stay home, and your arrangement might work out fine for everyone in the end !

good luck and have a good time, enjoy the company of your family !

[lemon flower]

about BP's and travelling, when I come to think about it, I think the whole travelling thing is kind of stressful to them,

they don't always realise it , sometimes they are eager to go , having great expectations about it, but to my experience it usually isn't a success at all... .

I can tell you some stories from my own experience about two bPd-partners with whom I've been travelling and how awful those travels escalated in the end  :'(

so yes,  you will certainly be much more relaxed without her  

[hergestridge]

I don't do travel with my BPDw any more. It's just a boundary I've set. It's a boundary I have set with much hesitation and sorrow actually, because it means my little daughter won't get to travel. If I would travel alone it would be against my wife's will and she would make such a scene out of that it would take all the fun out of the trip.

The simple reason I won't travel with my wife is because I love travelling so much and I gets me in a really good mood. My wife however usually switches rapidly between euphoria and some sort of dysregulation when we're out travelling. I don't know if it's the stress or if it's something in my happiness that triggers her. But she can b*tch about all kinds of things a whole day until I'm in tears. This when we're in an exotic location, by a beautiful lake or in a camping site somewhere. One recurring motif of her dysregulation is that she really didn't want to go and couldn't afford the trip (she always maintains a certain indifference about our vacantions, so that she can bring this up).

I really don't think she can break this pattern. It's a "thing" for her. She's told me that she was a kid she avoided camps and sleepovers like the plague because she was afraid she'd get into a fight with someone and then she'd be stuck with no way to get home. 

Still, this is really difficult to maintain this boundary. Actually every boundary that she doesn't accept is difficult to maintain because of her selective amnesia. I have told her outright several times that I won't travel with her because of her terrible mood swings, still she tries to plan trips with me again and again. I have to "break bad news" to her time and time again, sending her into another dysregulation.

[empathic]

In a normal relationship that kind of arrangement would not be that big of a deal right? I'm trying to think of ways to word this idea the right way.

I wouldn't say that!  I've seen several "normal" couples going totally loose (and even splitting up) when travelling comes to the issue...

- it can be about two opposite characters (she wants the cliché shopping trip he wants to go mountain climbing)

- it can be about money (she wants to save some money for new furniture he wants to spend it all on a journey to the end of the world), etc

- often there's one partner who absolutely despises travelling, who just wants to be home always and forever... . you'd say : no big deal, just go with someone else, but apparently this is a mountain-high problem to many people; what if he betrays me with an exotic beauty when he's gone, what if she betrays me with the neighbour when I'm gone  

- then there are those who are afraid to stay home alone, fearing they can't manage on their own (especially older, needy men who claim their wifes for every breath they take  

believe me this is basically not a BPD-related problem but it can be even more eccessive with a BPD-partner, no doubt... .

in your story it's also because she doesn't relate to your family isn't it ?

maybe she's right to stay home, and your arrangement might work out fine for everyone in the end !

good luck and have a good time, enjoy the company of your family !

I'm sure you're right, that travel can be an issue for normal relationships as well.

Yes, she has problems with my FOO now. At first she didn't seem to, as she had big issues with her own family. The more she has reconnected with her own family, the more black my family has been painted.

There are other things apart from my family that stresses her out when travelling. She needs to eat at certain times each day or her mood will decrease (fast!). She is also rather picky about where she wants to eat. Preferably she wants to eat at the hotel each day so it's predictable.

I have noticed that when we visit a childhood friend of hers in another city, several overnight stays, she does not get stressed out about these things though, so she is capable of travelling without dysregulation under certain circumstances.

[empathic]

I don't do travel with my BPDw any more. It's just a boundary I've set. It's a boundary I have set with much hesitation and sorrow actually, because it means my little daughter won't get to travel. If I would travel alone it would be against my wife's will and she would make such a scene out of that it would take all the fun out of the trip.

The simple reason I won't travel with my wife is because I love travelling so much and I gets me in a really good mood. My wife however usually switches rapidly between euphoria and some sort of dysregulation when we're out travelling. I don't know if it's the stress or if it's something in my happiness that triggers her. But she can b*tch about all kinds of things a whole day until I'm in tears. This when we're in an exotic location, by a beautiful lake or in a camping site somewhere. One recurring motif of her dysregulation is that she really didn't want to go and couldn't afford the trip (she always maintains a certain indifference about our vacantions, so that she can bring this up).

I really don't think she can break this pattern. It's a "thing" for her. She's told me that she was a kid she avoided camps and sleepovers like the plague because she was afraid she'd get into a fight with someone and then she'd be stuck with no way to get home. 

Still, this is really difficult to maintain this boundary. Actually every boundary that she doesn't accept is difficult to maintain because of her selective amnesia. I have told her outright several times that I won't travel with her because of her terrible mood swings, still she tries to plan trips with me again and again. I have to "break bad news" to her time and time again, sending her into another dysregulation.

Yes, relaxing and enjoying the scenery sure isn't something my wife appreciates either.

Money is a huge issue to my wife, so it plays a part here too. She doesn't seem to understand that ruining the vacation is the biggest waste of money you can do on the vacation. Splitting tabs with other people is one of the things she has issues with. I personally don't mind if I end up paying slightly more or less, it probably evens out in the long run. But to her it's a disaster - so we have had to arrange it so that I pay for everything on the latest trips, which can be a considerable amount.

It's sad having to struggle with this, because one of the things I was looking for in a relationship was to have someone to explore the world with.

[lemon flower]

It's sad having to struggle with this, because one of the things I was looking for in a relationship was to have someone to explore the world with.

yes, for me too, but looking back at the past 20 years I have spent most of my travels on my own.  Life... .  

my (now ex)BP-partner still wants to go travelling together with me because he'd get nowhere on his own, but I'm not very eager to promise anything , maybe a very short trip (2/3 days max), and only if he has his own budget, because last years' holiday I had to lend him money constantly and afterwards he made a huge fuzz about it , because "I took him on that trip, ergo, I had to pay it ", and because I "made him buy all those fancy clothes he didn't need and couldn't afford"

(our last trip was supposed to a "cultural" city-trip but we ended up going shopping because we couldn't fill the day if it wasn't for shopping or eating out   ). He never comes with any suggestions on what to do by himself and half of the things I proposed were not fun, stupid, boring, etc... .

but when he now looks back at that holiday, it was 'the best holiday he ever experienced... . "

[an0ught]

PwBPD live in the moment and some can be surprisingly flexible and resourceful in quickly changing situations. A big challenge with travel can be stability of decisions needed beforehand and overwhelming fear before trip begins.

[empathic]

PwBPD live in the moment and some can be surprisingly flexible and resourceful in quickly changing situations. A big challenge with travel can be stability of decisions needed beforehand and overwhelming fear before trip begins.

That rings true. Travelling with my uBPDw is normally very challenging.

I'm still undecided what to do with the upcoming event. My sister has invited us there for her birthday. Had it been the other way around my wife would have tried to force me to go, no doubt. My mother pressures me to take both kids with me there, but I think that would start off too large feelings of abandonment for my wife. Now it's getting closer and the tickets to get there are harder to come by every day.

I feel like I should have called my wife more on her decision to not go, she got away very easily with that. Now I'm stuck in a situation where it will be wrong no matter what I do. And my wife is making other plans for the family for the dates in question.

[empathic]

An update on this: I've summoned enough willpower to suggest me going with our daughter, in a mail to my wife. She'll probably not like it, but so be it - if it leads to dysregulation she has to own that. It is not strange for me to want to spend time with my birth family. I can feel me and my birth family growing further and further apart the past years, a process I now want to stop.

[lemon flower]

glad to hear that. :-)

A holiday will do you good and as you mention yourself: your family is important to you and meeting them will hopefully prevent the bridge from breaking down.

Investing in your own familybonds is very important, not only for you but also for your daughter I guess.

I hope you will have a nice time !

[empathic]

glad to hear that. :-)

A holiday will do you good and as you mention yourself: your family is important to you and meeting them will hopefully prevent the bridge from breaking down.

Investing in your own familybonds is very important, not only for you but also for your daughter I guess.

I hope you will have a nice time !

Thanks for the kind and wise words. Yes, I'm glad I will be doing this trip. I feel partly sad that I won't be able to take a wife with me there that would enjoy it too. I'm thinking back to some trips me and uBPDw did when we were first together that were joyful. But I guess things don't always turn out the way you're hoping for.

It's taken a slightly different turn now, in that my wife thinks our son wants to go as well. A bit surprising, and I'm sure the abandonment issues will surface when we actually are leaving. But I'm all for it, as I know the kids will have a great time with their cousins.

[empathic]

Yesterday wasn't so great. I could feel it coming on when she started questioning why I asked her about some dates for the trip by email.

When I got back home she started asking me "don't you think we need to talk about something that important face to face instead of by email?". I said I had asked her if she wanted to go, and she said no, so I thought I'd work out the details by email before telling the kids. She also said "you never want to go anywhere with me!", eventhough we're just today going on a journey with the kids for two days.

Later in the evening she wanted to talk, and it went as it usually does - I am to blame for her feeling low, my parents and sister despise her. This time I felt that she's probably deeply depressed, more so than I've realized before. Some things that were said during the conversation (I write it here as a form of journal also):

Her: "great, so you and the kids can go and you'll have a great time without me I'm sure. It will be just like when we're divorced later"

Her: "I don't get why people are getting irritated by me lately, I don't think they have a valid reason to"

Her: "I feel so lonely, I don't have any friends whatsoever left. I could as well live in a cabin in the woods. Your parents live in the same town and don't even want to come see me."

Me: "Even if we don't have a loving relationship right now, I still consider you my best friend. That is worth something isn't it?"

Her: "To me, best friends are people you can trust, I don't consider you my best friend."

Me: "You don't think you can trust me?"

Her: "No, you're probably the last person I'd talk to about something!"

Me: "It makes me rather sad to hear that."

Me: "Isn't it the same when you go visit your mother with the kids for several days and I am home by myself?"

Her: (something about my sister not liking her)

This time I tried to stay more silent and focused than I usually do, as I've noticed before that questioning certain things she says does not lead anywhere. I did hug her and hold her for a while and that seemed to calm her somewhat. I felt so sorry for her that I started to cry myself.

I noticed my stress levels went up a great deal during the evening because of this, and I had to break the conversation to go to bed (work today plus a long drive). It was followed by insomnia.

I feel sad today and have second thoughts about the trip when she is this depressed. I feel bad for the kids. I don't know how to deal with the situation anymore, and am considering MC just to do something about it - she probably will not seek help for herself.

It also turned out during the conversation that a friend of hers that she's felt she can have deep conversations with does not have as much time for my wife anymore. Also that she's not happy with her projects and would instead like a "normal" job. I could turn the focus to some of these things to get a somewhat constructive conversation going, but I don't think it leads to any action unfortunately.

[lemon flower]

well, I was also wondering why you were communicating by e-mail to your wife... . I suppose you do this because it has been a succesful way of communicating in the past ? maybe it helps to put things clearly listed ?

anyway, you knew she wouldn't be happy and discussions would follow, but sadly this is inavoidable with pwBPD, and even though this sadness infects you too don't let it change your plans, you need this holiday and there are two persons in this r/s who both have needs, not just one !

keep to your plan, this is not only about you but also about your kids and your relatives, if you cancel the trip you will disappoint many people only to please one person... .

maybe it will comfort her if you pay some extra attention to her wellbeing in the days before you leave, like actively helping her plan some things she can do while you are gone, or inviting some friends to come to visit her in that period ?

quote: [I feel sad today and have second thoughts about the trip when she is this depressed. I feel bad for the kids. I don't know how to deal with the situation anymore, and am considering MC just to do something about it - she probably will not seek help for herself.]

what is MC ?

take care 

[empathic]

well, I was also wondering why you were communicating by e-mail to your wife... . I suppose you do this because it has been a succesful way of communicating in the past ? maybe it helps to put things clearly listed ?

We communicate that way about some issues, she does too. She's written me lengthy emails listing things wrong with me in the past. So I thought it would be an OK way to do it, but I realize now I should have had the courage to bring it up directly face-to-face when she told me she wouldn't go (about three weeks ago).

anyway, you knew she wouldn't be happy and discussions would follow, but sadly this is inavoidable with pwBPD, and even though this sadness infects you too don't let it change your plans, you need this holiday and there are two persons in this r/s who both have needs, not just one !

keep to your plan, this is not only about you but also about your kids and your relatives, if you cancel the trip you will disappoint many people only to please one person... .

maybe it will comfort her if you pay some extra attention to her wellbeing in the days before you leave, like actively helping her plan some things she can do while you are gone, or inviting some friends to come to visit her in that period ?

It's hard, because it's never been about the trip. It's about her relation to my parents and sister. That she thinks my parents don't want to babysit our kids, that my sister never invites us or come visit us when they're in town. So she wants to avoid being with them to punish them for not being with us. Doesn't make much sense does it?

My needs are rarely considered. She seems to reason like this: with all I have done for you, how dare you even think that you need to do X ?

She doesn't like being alone. She has no hobbies that you do alone. It's even worse now when she doesn't have a regular job, too much time to think about problems all the time.

Just about all our friends are couples (from her side). She wouldn't stand spending more than 1-2 days with anyone we know, before their "irritating" habits would get to her.

The irony of all this is that it's her misguided effort to improve the relationship that makes me want to get out of it. She wants to control me into a loving husband, I despise being controlled and want to back away. Had she just been relaxed about some things I could maybe have started loving her again. "You mean you really want to take the kids on a trip by yourself? So I can do whatever I want for almost a week? Yes!" is not something you'd hear her say... . no, let's instead spend an evening crying and moaning about it, to sabotage it all.

[lemon flower]

I'm sorry to hear all this, but seems to me that it underlines the importance of this trip to you, you obviously need a break, clear up your thoughts, breathe fresh air and meet your relatives !

even though your wife is ill and needs more support than in a regular r/s, she is after all an adult and a mother with responsabilities to her family, so she's in charge too to take some initiative concerning her "free" week.

I hope you will find a good moment for a peaceful conversation with her in which you can plan together how things will go during your absence and what she can expect from you (eg. a call every evening to say hello, or a texting now and then with some sweet words, dunno)

as for making some kind of "program" of what she can be doing when alone, it is important that she comes with some ideas herself, if you're advising her things (even with the best intentions) she will probably put the blame on you if it wasn't fun after all... .

when are you supposed to leave ?

[empathic]

I'm sorry to hear all this, but seems to me that it underlines the importance of this trip to you, you obviously need a break, clear up your thoughts, breathe fresh air and meet your relatives !

even though your wife is ill and needs more support than in a regular r/s, she is after all an adult and a mother with responsabilities to her family, so she's in charge too to take some initiative concerning her "free" week.

I hope you will find a good moment for a peaceful conversation with her in which you can plan together how things will go during your absence and what she can expect from you (eg. a call every evening to say hello, or a texting now and then with some sweet words, dunno)

as for making some kind of "program" of what she can be doing when alone, it is important that she comes with some ideas herself, if you're advising her things (even with the best intentions) she will probably put the blame on you if it wasn't fun after all... .

when are you supposed to leave ?

It is in about three weeks time. The stress of this is getting to me. I noticed the night we sat down to "talk" about it, the outcome was... . nothing. She just gets upset and muddles the discussion by making it about our relationship, how we never travel together (eventhough we do), how my parents and my sisters have wronged her (in her eyes). How she thinks I'm waiting for her to initiate divorce. If I try to make any suggestions they are just shot down. All I can do is listen and validate, but there is no real progress.

I think I'd need to be in a better place to handle this particular issue the way I should... . I'm currently in CBT (that I find helps me, but in limited ways). I might be depressed in that I can't take action on certain things, especially when the outcome is not majorly positive in either of the choices.

[lemon flower]

it's a pity she is so rigid right now, but if nothing comes out from her side, then so be it, maybe something will change in her behaviour a long these last weeks ... .

you tried your best to an open conversation, if it doesn't work, try to relax a little bit in it, there's not much more you can do about it I guess ... .

I hope the kids are fine, I know it's difficult, stay cool 

[empathic]

it's a pity she is so rigid right now, but if nothing comes out from her side, then so be it, maybe something will change in her behaviour a long these last weeks ... .

you tried your best to an open conversation, if it doesn't work, try to relax a little bit in it, there's not much more you can do about it I guess ... .

I hope the kids are fine, I know it's difficult, stay cool 

Thanks! And thanks for your comment and ideas, they have helped me look at this in different angles.

The kids will be fine either way, we have planned a lot of other activities for them this summer.

No, I don't think there's much more I can do about it right now, apart from radical acceptance I suppose.

[empathic]

I felt like I was out of choices and had to turn down the invitation. You're right, I disappointed a lot of people... . my parents, my sisters family (and myself). Thankfully I had not mentioned anything about this to the kids. Though I get a knot in my stomach every time I hear how much they want to meet their cousins this summer.

Now to try to learn some lessons from this. It's never been highlighted quite so obvious before just how imbalanced the relationship is. And I have to look inward at my inability to make decisions that would benefit me in the long run, for fear of my wife in the short.

And just today my wife asked me to go with the kids to her mothers' place to celebrate her (her mothers) birthday this weekend... . by email! I mean, can't she see the similarities at least somewhat? But instead of feeling anger that most normal people would, I feel resignation, sadness, and like I have no real say in anything.

[lemon flower]

Now to try to learn some lessons from this. It's never been highlighted quite so obvious before just how imbalanced the relationship is. And I have to look inward at my inability to make decisions that would benefit me in the long run, for fear of my wife in the short.

yes... .

too bad you couldn't make it but at least you got this insight, I'm sure you will get stronger if you work consciously on this, because as repeatedly mentioned here on these boards; we cannot change our BP-partners, we can only work on ourselves.

although not many people have joined this conversation I'm sure many people here have recognised your dilemma's, maybe next time you will choose differently, see it as a "work in progress"... .

I hope you will find some people (therapist or other) who can help you in this process !