Isn't there a thin line between working on yourself & being the persecutor/1up?

[ziniztar]

I know myself as someone who is capable of changing my behaviour once I see how ineffective it is. I've always liked that about myself. And, have always felt superior to others because of it. It's allmost as if that triggers me to perform.

I'm in therapy now and so is my dBPDbf. A week ago I mentioned something positive to him (I was able to change my thoughts in a good way) and his reaction was: "Yeah you can do that, you can do anything. I can't change that. I can't do anything."

When do you cross from being "centered" in the Karpman triangle -working on yourself-, to the persecutor in being superior and the "1up"?

Does anybody recognize this?

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[ziniztar]

For people unknown to the Karpman triangle, I am referring to this: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0

[Bee Girl]

Zinizstar,

Thanks for pointing to this link. I was struck by the line:

It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children.

I am a starting gate Rescuer, and just yesterday was wanting to post along the lines of:

"After all I've done for him, this is the thanks I get?", moving myself right into victim.

Fascinating, and I am noticing I'm spending a lot more time trying to "figure out" my bf than I am focusing on myself, which keeps me from... . having to figure myself out.

Anyway, to your question. I'll have to reread and reflect, but I wonder if the key is in the interaction. Working on yourself ideally involves only yourself (perhaps your T as an ally/guide), which wouldn't put you in a triangulation scenario. If you are working on yourself for or because of someone else solely, perhaps that puts you into the triangle?

[Wrongturn1]

BPDs tend to view life as a zero-sum game, so if things are improving for you, the BPD believes things are getting worse for them.  Fear of abandonment may also be triggered b/c the person with BPD may view the accomplishments of the non partner as factors that make the non partner more attractive to the rest of the world and therefore more likely to be stolen away.

[123Phoebe]

Hi ziniztar,

When do you cross from being "centered" in the Karpman triangle -working on yourself-, to the persecutor in being superior and the "1up"?

Maybe when we're thinking too much instead of feeling?  Trying to prove something to ourselves or someone else?  I'm not really sure, as I think I'm thinking too hard about it

[MissyM]

We are only one up or the persecutor if we believe we are better than the BPD.   Just because the BPD may consider us the persecutor if we are healthier, does not mean it is so.

[123Phoebe]

Just because the BPD may consider us the persecutor if we are healthier, does not mean it is so.

Thinking about this a little more and wondering if it comes back to feeling invalidated.  It really is huge to feel invalidated; that the way one thinks or processes something is seen to be crazy or wrong or totally out in left field. 

[ziniztar]

Just because the BPD may consider us the persecutor if we are healthier, does not mean it is so.

Thinking about this a little more and wondering if it comes back to feeling invalidated.  It really is huge to feel invalidated; that the way one thinks or processes something is seen to be crazy or wrong or totally out in left field. 

Thinking, 123Phoebe?

I totally get your point about overanalyzing things, at least that's what I think you were hinting at. But I do think you now get where my doubt comes from: I wouldn't want to make him feel less - and I wouldn't want to give him another reason to feel like a victim. I'm trying so hard not to invalidate, yet what if the same processes of schema therapy and cognitive behavioural therapy work faster on me than on him? Of course they do - I'm not BPD and that makes it a lot easier, but I wouldn't want to discourage him.

That is what made me wonder: should you "let them win" once in a while, as a father would let his son win in a sprint race or soccer? You do that to encourage a child's effort as well. And by "winning" I think I mean: do not tell him actively about my progress, I'm not going to self-sabotage myself of course  .

[ziniztar]

We are only one up or the persecutor if we believe we are better than the BPD. 

I think I am healthier and more capable of changing negative thoughts than my bdBPDbf is. Does that make me a persecutor?

[MissyM]

I think I understand what you are saying.  My dBPDh would feel I was "bragging" if I talked about how well I was doing.  It hits him in his feeling of being less than.  The only thing I share with him about my recovery is what faults I am aware that I have and to apologize when I make a mistake.  The progress I make is something I celebrate with my codependency recovery friends and my therapist.  They give me the positive feedback (or negative feedback) that I need. I can't look to my dBPDh to give me encouragement, he just isn't able to do that yet.

[an0ught]

Hi ziniztar,

I totally get your point about overanalyzing things, at least that's what I think you were hinting at. But I do think you now get where my doubt comes from: I wouldn't want to make him feel less - and I wouldn't want to give him another reason to feel like a victim. I'm trying so hard not to invalidate, yet what if the same processes of schema therapy and cognitive behavioural therapy work faster on me than on him? Of course they do - I'm not BPD and that makes it a lot easier, but I wouldn't want to discourage him.

That is what made me wonder: should you "let them win" once in a while, as a father would let his son win in a sprint race or soccer? You do that to encourage a child's effort as well. And by "winning" I think I mean: do not tell him actively about my progress, I'm not going to self-sabotage myself of course  .

Based on your and his assessment he is behind you. That is not surprising as he got into problems for a severe lack of skills and is starting from a lower level.

He is perceiving it and it is a fact. That should be easy to validate. But speaking the truth is not so comfortable if the truth is not positive?

How could you give him a validating statement with SET that reflects in part his view but also puts it into a wider context?

[ziniztar]

How could you give him a validating statement with SET that reflects in part his view but also puts it into a wider context?

Hmmm yes I guess I find that to be difficult. I don't like acknowledging negative things in my private life. At work I'm a master at it. I'm guessing it would be along the lines of...

S - I can understand you feel it is difficult to see that I am making progress and you feel stuck.

E - I would feel the same too if I were you. I've only got a few things to work on and I find them really hard, I can't imagine what you are facing.

T - For now it is better to look at our own progress and not compare, as we both have our own challenges to take in our own pace - and that's ok.

And a side question: by validating the "victim's" response and adding truth to it (putting responsibility into the triangle) we step away from it?