Huge, glaring red flags that I ignored in the beginning

[Banshee]

The more friends and things she had not only made her feel happier she was also in a safe / comfort zone. You know - like if you lose one thing but still have 10 other things the one thing doesn't matter, not that big of a deal losing it.

My ex got sick and grumpy VERY grumpy and went off by text ... . told me I WOULD be replaced... I thought that was strange to say replaced... I would have said I will find SOMEONE else... but he chose replaced like what you would do to a broken vase... you replace it... a different way of seeing things through their eyes for sure.

[Trent]

Let's see... . during the first few months:

- The first night we met, she got drunk, started crying for unknown reasons, told me she loved me, stripped naked, and tried to have sex with me

- Was married 5 times

- Last ex husband was abusive, so she shot at him 3 times (missed, claims missing was intentional) and was indicted for attempted murder, among other charges

- BPD/NPD mother, father was MIA.  Both parents abusive

- Sister & father both committed suicide.  She had attempted it twice.

- 3 kids, all with serious drug/alcohol/behavioral issues in their teens/twenties

- Basically moved herself into my place, then got very angry when I balked after realizing it

- Exhibited symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia

- Unemployed and living off of modest divorce settlement, but spent money like water

- Changed career/education aspirations frequently

- Instigated conflict with my family, including my 8 year old nephew

- Instigated conflict with strangers at school, and with regular patrons at a bar/restaurant she would frequent

- Automatically assumed I was having sex with my sister in law because I would go babysit my nieces and nephews once a every week or two.  And because of "the way" my sister in law looked at me.

- Regular smoker, modest drinker, and pot afficionado... . all because they helped "calm" her

- During a dysregulation episode, our T said she was acting manic and delusional, recommended antidepressants... . T was then immediately painted black and discredited permanently

- Wanted us to buy a house together after being together for three months

- Moved her stuff out two or three times for nonsensical (to me) reasons

- Said she had to "go behind my back" to do something for me after I specifically asked her not to

- Repeatedly introduced me to people by my former military rank after I asked her not to multiple times

- Used her cigarettes to burn holes in the paintings of a man we rented from, because "he made her cry"; also broke a window, called the police, and claimed she didn't know who did it; would turn the thermostat up into the 80s just to F with him

- Raged at me because I asked her to delay a family party after my brother started chemo for cancer and he might not be able to make it.  So she made the invitations anyways and later had to throw them away.  As punishment, she picked a fight, ignored me, and later went out by herself... . on my birthday.

After re-reading this list, I can't believe it didn't work out between us! 

[Jb101]

My ex was very sexually promiscuous, but I didn't think about that too much because I've been with promiscuous men who were just dandy mentally and emotionally.

I guess I should have paid more attention to his reason for having sex. He asked me mine once, early on, and I couldn't come up with just one reason (it's fun, it's a human need, it's an important way to bond, it's a big F-you to death, it's a way to express oneself, and also it's fun). His only reason? "To feel close to someone."  

I mean, If I had told my friends about these  's they would have told me to run for the hills and hide for a long time.

I have to look at myself and what inspired me to take a risk on something where the odds on absolute disaster were so high.

It wasn't as if she painted a rosy picture, she laid it all down up front and I still thought she'd be the woman of my dreams.  

I am with you completely on this.

I should have given him the benefit of the doubt and really listened to what he was trying to tell me. I shouldn't have thought that these were issues that could be alleviated with just unconditional love and acceptance. I had more than my fair share of arrogance there, thinking I could give him a safe place to be himself, and support him and understand him, to a point where we would be able to have a functional, mutually beneficial r/s. That was certainly something I had to get over about myself.

there were more red flags up front for me than a Soviet May Day parade        

This made me laugh out loud.  

Damn! I have to laugh at myself, I must have been in some kind of blackout to ignore this sea of red flags... I shake my head.

I hear you! I was laughing at myself while typing out my own list.

I'm sorry but this made me laugh ... sometimes we just have to or we would truly lose it.

That is absolute truth! 

Agree with all of it, and yep... you read your list and think how on earth did I let that keep going and not realise?

[HappyNihilist]

I know, right? Who says that? And I think this was on our first date (I know it was no later than the second one).

Did you say anything when he said that? Oh my! Not sure If I would know how honestly.

I honestly can't remember how I responded. I think I just looked at him, dumbfounded, and he moved on to something else.

I will add... . I did bring this concept up in our last conversation. I told him he did break me. He said, "It was and still is the hardest thing I've ever done." I'm taking that as a compliment.   And as a reminder of how completely f#cked-up the whole thing was. (Including my willing participation in it.)

[Banshee]

wow... how hard could it be to say i'm sorry I never wanted to break you... I use to ask my ex i  wonder what you would be like if you had a normal childhood... he would just I think they feel above most people at times... He would say stuff like he was smart and very wise... could read people within minutes and know what they were about.

Too bad he wasn't wise enough to  know himself or  smart enough to realize what he does to people. I hate this illness... yuk  

[HappyNihilist]

wow... how hard could it be to say i'm sorry I never wanted to break you... I use to ask my ex i  wonder what you would be like if you had a normal childhood... he would just I think they feel above most people at times... He would say stuff like he was smart and very wise... could read people within minutes and know what they were about.

Once again... . this is it EXACTLY. My exbf often seemed to have mistaken himself for a sage of the world. I teased him once that he was often "sitting up on his throne, tossing down judgment." A lot of times, he treated me like (or outright said that) I was naive and unwise, like I would never understand the world as it really was.

They can read people extremely well. The problem is, they view everything from their own distorted lens. They assign malicious or negative intent where there is none.

Too bad he wasn't wise enough to  know himself or  smart enough to realize what he does to people. I hate this illness... yuk  

This makes me think of another  . I asked him a couple of times what he thought he could have done better in past r/s's. Not that bluntly  , but basically I was trying to see what he had learned from failed r/s's about himself, and I was sharing my own lessons learned. He could not even comprehend the question. He did nothing wrong! Why would I even dare ask?

[Banshee]

He could not even comprehend the question. He did nothing wrong

Mine would say he knew he was bad to his exwife he said he would get mad and call her names... never touched her though... but he told me several times of a story where he got mad and threw a chair... and the LOOK on her face... he said it like he was proud.Never heard him say he did anything wrong to any of the girls he dated after he was divorced but had plenty bad to say about them.

Another thing that creeped me out was him using the word evil and demons... I was being evil or I was evil... he said many times " you don't want the demons to come out" "you've never seen the demons" meaning him going off I guess.

[BuildingFromScratch]

I saw many of the warning signs. But I had faith in who she was and thought I could heal her. Some of them.

-Complaining that the nice things I do for her are not good enough

-Telling me how I should feel

-Getting really mean over me gushing about how beautiful she is

-Telling me all her relationships turn out bad when we first started to fight

-Honestly, she even told me she had Borderline Personality Disorder... . but I shrugged that off too and then forgot for 10 years,

-She was put in a mental hospital for a couple of weeks for trashing her place and letting rabbits run loose in her apartment and got evicted

[HappyNihilist]

Now, my exbf did admit that was a difficult person to live with,   and that he did bad things to exes.   But he viewed these behaviors as reactions to them "not being able to handle him."  

Mine would say he knew he was bad to his exwife he said he would get mad and call her names... never touched her though... but he told me several times of a story where he got mad and threw a chair... and the LOOK on her face... he said it like he was proud.Never heard him say he did anything wrong to any of the girls he dated after he was divorced but had plenty bad to say about them.

Oh yes. "Never hit her!"   "I'm no wife-beater."   Et cetera. People who are actually not abusive don't feel the need to constantly reassure others and themselves that they are not abusive.

Another thing that creeped me out was him using the word evil and demons... I was being evil or I was evil... he said many times " you don't want the demons to come out" "you've never seen the demons" meaning him going off I guess.

Another   mine shares. Lots of talk about evil and demons. Also darkness and emptiness. And an all-pervading sense of badness. When someone's main way of identifying themselves is "bad"? That's a big 

-Telling me how I should feel

This may have been what bothered me the most. It's such a basic violation of an individual human right -- to feel our own feelings -- and also a betrayal of the right be able to express those feelings in a r/s.

[HappyNihilist]

It's all so sick. She collected people (friends) and possessions. I think looking back now at it I understand what was happening. The more friends and things she had not only made her feel happier she was also in a safe / comfort zone. You know - like if you lose one thing but still have 10 other things the one thing doesn't matter, not that big of a deal losing it. In a very similar way I was classified as Mr. Doesn't Matter and tossed.

That's a really interesting way of looking at it. It makes a lot of sense to me, especially given the objectification that goes on in BPD r/s.

My exbf also collected possessions. He wasn't really materialistic -- he didn't do this to show off or prove anything to anyone else -- but rather, as you said, having a lot of "things" gave him some sense of happiness and comfort.

After re-reading this list, I can't believe it didn't work out between us! 

I feel the same way -- this exercise is very enlightening for me!

[Sunny Side]

Hi HappyN, it's disturbing how many things I've forgotten and repressed about my r/s when I read posts like this.  So many  's, SO much dysregulated behavior!  I firmly believe that during idealization/trauma bonding there is a mechanism that allows us to dissociate from what we know are troublesome, toxic or unhealthy behaviors in lieu of fostering and preserving the ':)r. Feel Good' of the fantasy bond.  In my case I also believed by being non-judmental about the behaviors I was being an 'impartial listener' when in fact I was psychoanalyzing her as the r/s was already taking on a therapist-patient dynamic.  "So tell me, Sweetie, why did you insert the garden vegetable into your vajajay?"

Since we are evaluating and detaching I have a question for you.  Many in these r/s's have expressed their addictive/explosive sexual lives with their pwBPD's and in the postmortems recognize some aspects of this sexuality to be  's.  Knowing the specificity of your own sexual desires, limits and boundaries, HappyN, how do you assimilate them into the context of future relationships?  For example would you be as willing to enter a relationship with someone you knew to be as openly promiscuous as your ex or would you still place as high a value on the sexual component of a relationship versus other aspects of building and forging a healthy bond?

[AwakenedOne]

"So tell me, Sweetie, why did you insert the garden vegetable into your vajajay?"

[BacknthSaddle]

I guess I should have paid more attention to his reason for having sex. He asked me mine once, early on, and I couldn't come up with just one reason (it's fun, it's a human need, it's an important way to bond, it's a big F-you to death, it's a way to express oneself, and also it's fun). His only reason? "To feel close to someone."  

Reading this sent a chill down my spine.  This is literally the only way my BPDexgf would refer to sex when she wanted it.  She would say "I need to feel close to you," "I want that closeness," etc.  Always.  I had never actually heard anyone use that phrasing before, so I thought it was romantic.  Only in retorspect do I realize what a hug red flag it was.  The idea being, I suppose, that sex is the only way to attach with someone in a secure-feeling way (even though it is transient), the only way to supply the emptiness inside, the only way to feel complete.  I don't think my ex could really go more than a week without sex, and I don't mean that she'd be horny at the end of the week.  I mean she would literally do anything to get the "closeness" back.

I'm stunned now that I convinced myself this was the sign of a healthy libido.  That it was romantic.  It seems comical. 

[BacknthSaddle]

I'm just going to say or ask because I feel very comfortable with HappyNihilist... But all I hear is how sexually amazing BPD's are ... If I had the nerve  ... . which I don't, to post this  question... but I'll ask it here...

What the heck is so amazing?

By the way, I think this is the reason it is so "amazing."  We are attracted to our BPD partners physically and we think that's what makes the sex so hot, but what really does it is this pathological drive to feel "close" that they have.  It ups the intensity dramatically, at least early in the relationship, when they are interested in bonding with us.  By the time they are done with us, we've become so addicted to the intensity that we'll do anything (including sacrifice our integrity) to get it back, and we probably remember it as much more amazing than it actually was as a consequence. 

[BacknthSaddle]

I read others' stories and see similar desires/thoughts expressed by pwBPD or BPD traits. The more I think of it, the more it makes sense in the context of the disorder. Perhaps they're looking for a way to feel whole. Perhaps they think they can bond emotionally with a human being they've created from themselves.

I feel pretty confident that this is the case.  I thankfully never got to this point with my BPDx, but she was most certainly obsessed with having a baby.  I knew her when she was with her ex, and when things started to go wrong between them, they started trying to have a baby.  She was very direct about the fact that she thought the baby would repair the family, and didn't understand at all when I suggested this might not be the healthiest motivation for having a child ( !).  She was doing fertility treatments, found out her now ex was having an affair, went ahead with an artificial insemination 3 days later, it didn't take, and they were separated in a month.

This stuff actually happened and didn't make me run screaming.  It really does make me laugh now!

Anyway, yes, I think that very much having a child for pwBPD is a desperate attempt to complete themselves, to form a bond that they think can maybe really truly be secure.  Of course, those of us who have read enough (including on here) know that this is a temporary fix: tumultuous relationships with children frequently ensue, divorces still happen, and as we've all probably noticed, borderline parents frequently beget borderline children. I imagine this is because, as children, they can't rely on their dysregulated, splitting, demanding mothers/fathers to meet their own needs, and the cycle begins. 

[Lion Fire]

I guess I should have paid more attention to his reason for having sex. He asked me mine once, early on, and I couldn't come up with just one reason (it's fun, it's a human need, it's an important way to bond, it's a big F-you to death, it's a way to express oneself, and also it's fun). His only reason? "To feel close to someone."  

Reading this sent a chill down my spine.  This is literally the only way my BPDexgf would refer to sex when she wanted it.  She would say "I need to feel close to you," "I want that closeness," etc.  Always.  I had never actually heard anyone use that phrasing before, so I thought it was romantic.  Only in retorspect do I realize what a hug red flag it was.  The idea being, I suppose, that sex is the only way to attach with someone in a secure-feeling way (even though it is transient), the only way to supply the emptiness inside, the only way to feel complete.  I don't think my ex could really go more than a week without sex, and I don't mean that she'd be horny at the end of the week.  I mean she would literally do anything to get the "closeness" back.

I'm stunned now that I convinced myself this was the sign of a healthy libido.  That it was romantic.  It seems comical. 

This is so familiar. She is a super attractive woman and I was extremely attracted to her in the beginning. I noticed an intensity around sex from the first night that unnerved me. There was so much emphasis on it. It got to the point that it was so fraught that I would struggle to get aroused. She would go into hysterics and rage. There was so much pressure around sex that I began to withdraw and couldn't "complete". That would lead to more strife. In fact, this was the catalyst that lead to the chaos that eventually broke our relationship. She just could not live with the fact that I was not "hooked" on her. I believe sex has been her currency, her greatest asset all her life and me not drooling over her triggered massive insecurities and eventually insanely disordered behaviour. She blamed me of course... . labelled me sexually damaged and dysfunctional, gay  , not man enough... . and that's the mild insults... .

I tried to tell her to cool off a bit and let things flow. She then accused me of being in denial about my dysfunction. Sex was an escape for her and I just couldn't turn on, especially after being emotionally thrashed. She too would say she had a healthy libido but I wasn't convinced. For me it was more like a compulsion, even an addiction... .

I've had enough partners in my life to recognise a weird vibe around sex.

[Sunny Side]

BacknthSaddle, I always keep in mind that as similar as many of our stories are, no two pwBPD's are alike as is the case with us 'nons'.  My ex was very sexual and we had intense, passionate sex but it wasn't the main draw for me.  Some of her early expressed sexual behaviors were  's to my own sense of sexuality but I wrote them off as just her preferences to mine without moral judgment.  I'm sure my sexual behaviors were in some ways  's to her as well.

Author Rachel Reiland, one of the few well known pwBPD to be considered fully recovered, writes about her sexual acting out and its roots in longing in her book "Get Me Out Of Here: My Recovery From BPD".  It's very insightful reading if you're interested. 

She writes:

"The truth was that longing wasn't sexual. I wanted to be the entire focus of any person I was obsessed with.  My incessant hunger for attention had been a part of my life for as long as I could remember.  The burning heartache of emptiness obsessed me even when my peers had been taken with Barbie dolls and coloring books.  I knew even then that these constant feelings were not normal.  I had been deeply ashamed of them, not daring to breathe them to another soul, particularly to the objects of my longing.

As the years passed, my longings had taken on a sexual component.  Perhaps in the seventies era of free love and the Cosmopolitan woman, they'd been easier to accept.  On a far deeper level, I thought my desire to be the center of attention, usually from an older man, was worse than sexual promiscuity.

When the object of my longing -- the teacher, the coach, the boss -- was present in a room, I geared everything to that person.  I contrived every word, action, inflection, and facial expression for him.  Does he see me laughing? Does he see how funny everybody thinks I am?"

[BacknthSaddle]

Did it seem that I was making a moral judgment? I wasn't. Rather, I was just sharing thoughts on why I thought sex with pwBPDs so often gets described as particularly intense in response to a question by another poster. I agree with you that no two people of any kind are exactly alike, but certainly patterns are instructive. And certainly what Ms. Reilanf writes will ring true to many of us who have had sexual relationships with BPD partners.

[Sunny Side]

Backnth, the moral judgment was in reference to my own r/s .

[HappyNihilist]

Hi HappyN, it's disturbing how many things I've forgotten and repressed about my r/s when I read posts like this.  So many  's, SO much dysregulated behavior!  I firmly believe that during idealization/trauma bonding there is a mechanism that allows us to dissociate from what we know are troublesome, toxic or unhealthy behaviors in lieu of fostering and preserving the ':)r. Feel Good' of the fantasy bond.  In my case I also believed by being non-judmental about the behaviors I was being an 'impartial listener' when in fact I was psychoanalyzing her as the r/s was already taking on a therapist-patient dynamic.  "So tell me, Sweetie, why did you insert the garden vegetable into your vajajay?"

This was so me!

This exercise is amusing, enlightening, and disturbing for me (and I'm loving it, because I need to go there  ). I can't believe how much I'd repressed, ignored, rationalized, and forgotten.

Since we are evaluating and detaching I have a question for you.  Many in these r/s's have expressed their addictive/explosive sexual lives with their pwBPD's and in the postmortems recognize some aspects of this sexuality to be  's.  Knowing the specificity of your own sexual desires, limits and boundaries, HappyN, how do you assimilate them into the context of future relationships?  For example would you be as willing to enter a relationship with someone you knew to be as openly promiscuous as your ex or would you still place as high a value on the sexual component of a relationship versus other aspects of building and forging a healthy bond?

This is great question!  Sexuality is very important to me. I've been in a good r/s with incompatible sex -- and in sexually (and emotionally) neglectful r/s's -- so I know I will never sacrifice that part of myself again for a r/s because it makes me miserable.

His promiscuity never bothered me. His inability to be monogamous was not an issue whatsoever. (His not respecting my boundaries and reasonable requests was an issue. I was ashamed of what a sneaky, low b@stard he could be, when I realized it. I mean... . I really don't ask for much, people.  ) So no, I would by no means rule someone out because of promiscuity. I would, however, ask a few more questions and say a few more things than I did with my exbf.   I see one of the benefits of this r/s as helping me see more of how to navigate this territory.

I do firmly believe now that I don't have to sacrifice any part of myself to be in a loving, mutually beneficial r/s. I just have to be patient and careful. So that's a good place to be, I think.

Reading this sent a chill down my spine.  This is literally the only way my BPDexgf would refer to sex when she wanted it.  She would say "I need to feel close to you," "I want that closeness," etc.  Always. I had never actually heard anyone use that phrasing before, so I thought it was romantic.  Only in retorspect do I realize what a hug red flag it was. The idea being, I suppose, that sex is the only way to attach with someone in a secure-feeling way (even though it is transient), the only way to supply the emptiness inside, the only way to feel complete.  I don't think my ex could really go more than a week without sex, and I don't mean that she'd be horny at the end of the week.  I mean she would literally do anything to get the "closeness" back.

I'm stunned now that I convinced myself this was the sign of a healthy libido.  That it was romantic.  It seems comical. 

I agree with that interpretation. And my exbf often talked about his emptiness.

Like you, I thought it was sort of romantic and touching at the time. A lot of things he said were like that -- after looking back (even while still in the r/s, and especially now), I see almost too many to list. I suppose I thought I had found a modern-day Lord Byron. (Actually, Lord Byron probably had BPD. So... . life lesson: don't date men who remind you of Lord Byron.)

By the way, I think this is the reason it is so "amazing."  We are attracted to our BPD partners physically and we think that's what makes the sex so hot, but what really does it is this pathological drive to feel "close" that they have.  It ups the intensity dramatically, at least early in the relationship, when they are interested in bonding with us.  By the time they are done with us, we've become so addicted to the intensity that we'll do anything (including sacrifice our integrity) to get it back, and we probably remember it as much more amazing than it actually was as a consequence. 

This makes a lot of sense. I never made that connection before (thank you!) but it certainly seems like one of the big reasons why it was so amazing, in my case at least. And yes, I was addicted to that intensity. 

[Emelie Emelie]

On our second date he told me, "It always ends well with me.  I always part as friends.  If were to run into any of my xGF's right now I'd give them a big hug and a kiss."  At the time I thought okay, he's a 48 year old guy who has never been married and he's warning me not to get too attached?  But at the same time he's telling me he just wants to find someone to love?  And that was just the first of hundreds.

[HappyNihilist]

On our second date he told me, "It always ends well with me.  I always part as friends.  If were to run into any of my xGF's right now I'd give them a big hug and a kiss."  At the time I thought okay, he's a 48 year old guy who has never been married and he's warning me not to get too attached?  But at the same time he's telling me he just wants to find someone to love?  And that was just the first of hundreds.

Oh yeah, that's a big one.

My exbf didn't have that particular red flag. Quite the opposite, actually. One of his stories had a girl coming at him with a knife because he wouldn't have sex with her.   That was, sadly, not the only story of an ex coming at him with a knife.   

Here's another of mine that always bothered me throughout the r/s. Early on, when I was pulling away (getting scared), he sort of lost it one night (not angry, very scared and also drunk so more honest perhaps). I could tell by the way he was talking that his mind was clicking through all these ideas. At one point he said, "I would buy you things, but you don't care about that... . "  Much, much later (like, towards the end), he made an offhand reference to how much his most recent exwife "loved things." His words.

[BacknthSaddle]

Writing these down is very helpful.

A few more subtle ones.  I think it's the subtle ones that are the most instructive:

-After we fought, my ex would frequently apologize for being "so confusing" or "so inconsistent," even if this was really not relevant to the fight.  In retrospect I realize this is her way of viewing her push-pull behaviors.

-Frequently making plans (with me and others) and then cancelling at the last minute, then getting angry with the other party if they "didn't understand."

-Told me on several occasions "Please don't ever leave me."  I suppose maybe there is a healthy way to say this in a relationship, but now I see it as an expression of a pretty fragile attachment.  At one point she said "Please don't ever leave me no matter how bad I am to you or how much I say I don't need you."  This strikes me now as very similar to "I hate you, don't leave me." Something like "I'm going to hate you, but don't leave me then."

[gary seven]

My problem with red flags is that I am red/green color blind (really I am).

Try mixing that with a SO with very active BPD!

Oh yeah, and my kids look at me kinda funny when I pick out their school clothes that I think look nice together. ":)aaa-aaad!," especially from my D7.

[Banshee]

":)aaa-aaad!,"

That made me think of another  ... When I first met my ex for the first time ... he seen my car and said WOW your car is BLUE that's my favorite color! I have got to write down all this stuff they we have in common!

We haven't seen each other since we were 12  (we were 44 when we met)and  tells me his mom said that our story was like a fairytale... she has several mental problems herself so go figure.