Different Types of BPD?

[willy45]

Hi All,

Just a question... . something I don't understand... . Are there different types of BPDs? I've heard a lot on this board about BPD ex's who just cut and run and are never to be heard from again. Someone is split black and then they are no longer around. Then, I've heard of others (mine... . unfortunately) who just keep coming back and contacting over and over and over no matter what you say to them. I don't really get it. I think I would have been much better off with the former than the latter. Any thoughts?

[fromheeltoheal]

BPD behavior is on a continuum, from mild traits, which everyone exhibits now and then, to extreme, continuous traits, and everywhere in between.  Plus, some folks exhibit different traits than others, and other disorders are often comorbid, or resident in the psyche of the sufferer too.  And then there are individual personalities, like snowflakes, every one's different.  With all of those possibilities and combinations, it's amazing that we read so many similar stories over and over here; there are definitely similarities in traits, which is why we all find a connection here, although the specifics are all over the map.  That probably didn't help, but you get the idea.

[Emelie Emelie]

Interesting question.  I have read that there are "high functioning" and "low functioning" BPD's.  And I think there are certainly differences in men and women... . women having a greater tendency to be the "waif" type.  And then of course all people, even those with BPD, are different.  

As far as those whose disappear and those who don't?  I think those who stay around do so because they haven't replaced us.  The ones who have replaced us are playing out the drama with their new partner.  If that person cuts them off completely they may come back.  

[willy45]

Yeah. I guess I just don't really get it. It seems to me to be all over these boards. Two types. The cutter outs and the Latcher on's. In everything I've read, these two types seem to be consistent. I guess I'm jealous of those out their that just took off. I'm 2 years out and she still reaches out to me. I feel like I'm living in fear and having to relive everything over and over again.

[Emelie Emelie]

What is it that you're afraid of Willy?

[AwakenedOne]

Yeah. I guess I just don't really get it. It seems to me to be all over these boards. Two types. The cutter outs and the Latcher on's. In everything I've read, these two types seem to be consistent. I guess I'm jealous of those out their that just took off. I'm 2 years out and she still reaches out to me. I feel like I'm living in fear and having to relive everything over and over again.

Willy,

There is nothing to be jealous about of having a "Cut and Run" ex and being their victim instead of a "Latcher" ex.

You might think it would be easier to be just abandoned and not bothered again. It is the worst thing I have ever experienced in my life of a loss. Your post made me just realize this. Being abandoned in a way that's like they don't care if your alive, dead or even safe is horrible. Its like I mentioned in an early post -> creepy. Yeah, it's good she leaves me alone but still its horrible right? Marriage and 4 yrs and tremendous effort on my part = POOF.

It would be just as easy for someone in my situation to be jealous of a "Latcher" and their ex. They are still at least showing some care and communication even though it is more than likely a sick comunicaton and care of course. Kind of like what your going through with your ex. Her communication and caring is sick right?

It's all so horrible either way I think, I just wanted to reply to your post. I guess this is what your asking or saying right?

I don't think dwelling on this type of thing and being jealous brings an understanding that will be helpful. Just my opinion. I am saying that out of care for you. I hope you find peace and she leaves you alone.

AO

[Pecator]

Of course what you are illustrating is the "spectrum" of this disorder.

That, thankfully, was one of the first concepts I learned here (thanks again Mutt)

That is what kept me connected here even though so many specifics didn't match. The traits were still constant.

It kept me connected while I tried to figure out my uBPDex. However, it also keeps me here while I try to figure out myself.

I have followed your posts incessantly. We have such similar experiences. Yet I have always envied your position. I thrive on any information from my ex. I wish mine would contact me at any point. She is the "cut-off" type. The violations to N/C come from me. I wish mine was more "latcher on," for why? Because I think that I could control it better?

Now you wish yours was more like mine?

The spectrum of this disorder covers nons as well as pwBPD. This paradox clearly illustrates how spectrum this is to pwBPD as well as those who are affected by its effects.

I wish mine had your traits. You wish yours had more traits like mine. Doesn't that point to what ultimately this place is trying to teach us? Resolution comes from looking at ourselves rather than focussing on our partners

I have to try to understand why I wish mine was more like yours.

Sorry if this was a bit strong. But I do feel akin to your experience.

[HappyNihilist]

I seriously hope mine's not a Latcher On. The thought scares me a bit.

Willy, what exactly do you fear about her reaching out? Do you fear that she's going to do something? Is it more about your emotional boundaries ("that you'll have to relive it again"?

[willy45]

Thanks guys. Yeah, being cut out completely would also suck. Pecatur, I didn't mean to dismiss how hard being cut out would be. What I guess I mean is that all the stuff that she said since the breakup was much worse than the break up itself. The raging. The blaming. She told me she was suicidal and that it was 100 percent my fault. And the constant random contact is terrible. Its been two years. And she explicitly told me she is not going to stop. And don't think because she contacts me that she cares. It's more sick than that. She knows it hurts me but refuses to stop. That is a horrible feeling. She doesn't want to be in a relationship with me, yet she does in a weird, sick way. She wants to spend time with me, laugh with me, tell me she loves me while also telling me how terrible my behavior made her feel, how miserable she was with me. Yet she wants to spend time with me. It makes no sense. And it is crushing to me. I left her. But not because I didn't love her. Because I was scared of her. And she gets a thrill out of hurting me.

And HappyNihilist, I am scared. I am a train wreck right now. Prior to talking to her, I was fine. No more ruminations, tons of money, prestige, a relationship. I was fit. Bored a little, sure. And still processing. But I was OK. Now I'm back to square 1. And I'm worried that my life is going to fall apart. Sometimes when she contacts, I'm just in a low place. Mostly I ignore. Delete messages. Don't answer unknown numbers. It is like she knows to contact me when I'm out of the fog. The stated fact that she won't stop regardless of my specificilly telling her not to is scary. I don't think she will physically harm me. But the emotional harm is just as bad. I feel like I'm going crazy and that my world will fall apart.

I guess I just wish it would stop. If I hadn't spoken to her, I would be in such a better place.

[Turkish]

I guess I just wish it would stop. If I hadn't spoken to her, I would be in such a better place.

Hi Willy, you were in a better place before this, now you are back. But you know you got through it before, and I think you will be able to again. You've already proven that, no?

Its horrible to be made to relive the trauma by her boundary busting attachment. Can you think of how to erect stronger boundaries this time around?

[AwakenedOne]

What I was trying to say in my response is whether its a "Cut And Run" or a "Latcher" it's bad either way. We are dealing with someone that has a mental disorder. We all suffer on this deal, including them. Still, it seems like in reading some of these stories they get some sadistic pleasure out of torturing and/or abandoning us.

[willy45]

Thanks Turkish,

I've done a few things differently this time. I reach out to some mutual friends and told them what was going on. I hadn't spoken to them at all except for a few emails here and there just to say hey. I told them both that I was in counseling for six months recovering from PTSD from being emotionally abused. And I told them both that she continues to contact me (neither thought that was the case as my ex apparently doesn't talk to them about me... . which seems odd because they are her best friends).

I will change my phone number after this project I am working on is over. That should be in about a week and a half. I have been looking into using a different email client that will allow me to block her and delete automatically. Not sure if I can get away with not using Gmail though. That will be the only way she would be able to contact me. That, and showing up at my work events. I'm considering not engaging with more contract work after this but that seems stupid.

I'm just so f'ing tired of all this work all the time. I think I'm just worn down. I did an enormous amount of work to get out of this mental space before. And yes. I will have to do it again. I was in a place where when I thought of her, I realized how much I had changed and how I would never allow the kinds of behaviors I dealt with to happen again. Now I'm back in the FOG. And it is striking to me how easily it is to return to that place. That's what is the most frightening to me. In a three week span (prior to talking to her), I had meetings at the UN, with NASA and with the White House. Open doors all around. Tons of cool project ideas. Tons of money. And any thought I had about her were of the... . What the heck variety and the 'how did I possibly put up with that' variety. It didn't hurt anymore. My mind was still processing and I still thought about her every day, but it wasn't in the 'I wish I was back together' kind of way... . more just weird things that she would say or do and thinking to myself... . 'there is NO WAY I could put up with that now'.

And all it took were two short phone calls and I'm back in the FOG I was when I was with her. I just feel like I'm in a dream. A bad one. I think her last email to me has put me over the edge. It just seems so 'nice' but it was like she didn't even read my email. Just a straight up 'no, I'm not going to stop contacting you'. It just seems really sick to me. It really makes me question my own sanity and how much I can deal with. It has sucked me back in but this time it worse. I don't feel like I can live my life without watching over my shoulder all the time. I really thought that this time my telling her this would have bought me a few months to recover and get back to where I was. But that didn't happen. I think this time I need to actively cut any way she has of contacting me. That's the part that seems scary to me and unreal.

[willy45]

Hey AwakenedOne,

Yeah. Totally agree. It sucks on both sides, for sure. I guess what it comes down to is a complete lack of closure either way. There is no mutual understanding. No trying to figure out what went wrong. Just cut. Done. I guess mine is a 'cutter offer' in a way too... . but it is more mental. She just cuts that entire thing out of the picture like it never happened. She just wants to wipe the slate clean and be 'best friends' again. On the surface, it sounds like a perfectly healthy thing to do. But in context, it is incredibly weird. How can you have a relationship with someone who just wants to pretend like the past never happened. It is so bizarre.

She did this with her Dad which I always found so weird. And she does this with her Mom and sister. Her Dad abandoned her when she was 5 or so and never spoke to her until she was in her mid twenties. Her Mom is crazy. Her sister a total narcissist. I remember she went to spend time with her Dad for the first time ever and her step Mom suggested they talk about what happened and my ex refused. She just wanted to wipe the slate clean and never speak of it, never hear his side of the story. I'm sure there was much more to the story than him just taking off... . I've met her Mom... . her Mom is one step away from being a crazy homeless lady. She is like a 6 year old.

So, that's what she wants with me. She thinks it is OK and healthy to just brush it off and move forward. But I know different. Deep down, there is a seething, angry, sad, needy person who needs people around who she can blow up on. If I was friends with her, the blow ups would come fast and furious. I know that for a fact. F*ck, it happened when we were together. She would blow up at all kinds of random things... . how I felt about a movie, what I did in my spare time, how I spent my money, how I dressed.

The craziest part is that I spent the majority of the relationship trying to get out of it. I loved her to death but I was really scared of her, terrified of falling deeper and deeper in with her and having kids, shared house, shared finances, etc... . I don't understand why I feel this way. That's the part that scares me the most. I guess being with her caused me way more damage than I could have imagined.

I remember the first time I hung out with her... . I was with someone else is a serious relationship. She looked at me and asked me if I ever cheated before in my life. I said 'no' and was pretty proud of that. I thought it was a weird question. Totally out of the blue. I did end up cheating... . with her. And holy ___ did it destroy my life. Luckily, the woman I was with is now married with a kid and we weren't really meant to be together anyways. But she was a really nice person. And that was super ___ty of me to have done that. The CRAZIEST thing is that my ex was with someone else at the time too. And she completely denied ever having cheated on him, even though I know for a fact she did because it was with me! And at least 4 other men that she told me about... .

WOW... . I NEED to write more of these stories down. Makes me really wonder why I think this woman is so great. I think I dodged a huge bullet. I'm sure she was cheating on me when we were together. Why wouldn't she? What makes me think I was any different? She cheated on her ex with 5 other men (including me) and she was only with him for a year and a bit.

This is why I don't trust her or trust myself around her. This is why I don't trust that she just wants to be 'best friends'. In what world does that make any sense? She has a boyfriend. Does her boyfriend know she is calling me and telling me how she will never find anyone who will understand her the way I do or that I am her best friend in the whole world? H#ll's no. To him, I am probably this horrible guy who did her wrong, ditched her, never committed to her, never incorporated her into my family, and on and on. It is so crazy.

I'm rambling... .

[Turkish]

That's a brave thing to do, reaching out to those mutual friends, and it sounds like you got some answers.

Your big projects sound exciting! I'm not in those circles, but I always felt my uBPDx never apperciated the pressure of my job. She broke up with me after I came home working all weekend on a huge job for that Cupertino fruit company, a job which pretty much saved our whole silicon valley division's existence. I collapsed in my chair with my tablet to unwind, when i would rather have been home with my family. She came to me and said "its over!" Zero empathy. Zero appreciation. All about her.

Yours is still clinging. All about her. What about you? You won't get it from her, you need to get it from you.

[AwakenedOne]

Just know you aren't crazy. Your right on the money on most of your opinions probably. Yeah her boyfriend isn't gonna know your her best friend. He'd think that's weird. I think she is going to just get bored and leave you alone. It will get old to her after a while. I mean is she gonna be 80 yrs old and still trying to be BFF's with you?

Seems like you have good days and bad days. Some days you post and seems like your doing better and happier. What triggers the bad days? (besides that email). Did you watch the movie Psycho or The Silence Of The Lambs and that made you think of her today?    

[Changingman]

Hi Willy45,

I think you may be right, 'cut and run' made me face up to terrible family secrets , romantic relationships, myself, the past, the future, my fantasy life, the reality. The car crash image is so right about my RS, to fast, wobbly steering, faulty breaks, almost blind, laughing in the centre of the storm like a madman, almost alive, almost dead, keeping one hand on the wheel while she drunkenly jerked the car around, crying and manically laughing, can't get out the car but deadly to stay.

I am far enough away to see it as absolute insanity that I thought we could "make it". It was like one last desperate attempt to be strong and sort out this broken puzzle we had become.

My ex wife had BPD too. I left her and had to run, she wouldn't let me go, but we had kids... . so low, low contact. I was so thankful she finally found someone more stable ( her new victim ) after 2 years. She would still phone me up all the time she had a bad whatever and try to make me responsible for her feelings. Her new partner thought it was me making her like it for as long as she could convince him. I have only just realised what all this was about.

For me 'No Contact' is about absolute survival, the space for my real self to grow without more wounding.

'Cut and run' is devastating to accept, but probably the best of the two.

[BacknthSaddle]

What I was trying to say in my response is whether its a "Cut And Run" or a "Latcher" it's bad either way. We are dealing with someone that has a mental disorder. We all suffer on this deal, including them. Still, it seems like in reading some of these stories they get some sadistic pleasure out of torturing and/or abandoning us.

I think this is a key point.  Both characteristics are painful to cope with when the r/s ends, and the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.  I will add that pwBPD can display both traits at different points in the r/s.  Early on, before I got sucked in and thought that maybe it was a bad idea, I told my ex that I thought we should break it off and stop talking.  She'd say ok, but then the next day I'd get "this is so hard" and "I can't do this," and my guilt would kick in and we'd fall back.  Even when things were good she'd say "please don't ever leave me."  And now it's like she really couldn't care less, I've just dropped off the face of the Earth, and our r/s was never serious or significant to begin with. 

This actually doesn't make NC much easier, because it makes me want to test the waters all the time.  The one thing that has helped: on the rare occasion when she does contact me now, it's when she needs something she think she can get from me.  Now that she doesn't depend on me for her existence, her manipulations and using have become much less subtle. This has become so bald-faced now that I've been pretty disgusted by it and it's helped me start detaching.

[Conundrum]

It really doesn't matter whether they disappear or return to poke you in the eye w a sharp stick-- bc it's about your desires, not  theirs. If you desire the krazies who burn bight, then don't pine for stability; if you desire stability, then don't accept the nutters; if you desire a combination of the two, then walk the tightrope but don't complain that there is no safety net. See, we are all free agents in this one life and can control our des-tin-knees.

[fromheeltoheal]

If you desire the krazies who burn bright, then don't pine for stability; if you desire stability, then don't accept the nutters

Yep, sage advice.  And if you desire stability and thought you were getting it, until the krazy showed up, then your free agency, and mine, could benefit from a healthy dose of paying attention, speaking up, and setting and enforcing boundaries.  Lessons learned... .

[TitaniumPhoebe]

My ex-husband had an intense fear of abandonment, and whenever he would flip out and act crazy I would leave and go to my mom's.  He would be crying "you abandoned me." I was the one who left. I had to to save myself.

I started seeing a guy after him who has BPD traits (neither one is formally diagnosed but I'm certain my ex-husband is, and pretty sure the new guy might be too.)  The new guy got really clingy REALLY fast and almost like obsessed with me.  I told him a few times it's over and he wouldn't leave me alone. He, too, told me he has an intense fear of abandonment. We don't even live in the same city and I felt stalked. 

I agree, it would be easier if they left.  My husband used to torture me about not doing what he wanted, usually because I didn't want sex enough or when I did it wasn't good enough. I would tell him if I'm not what he wants, by all means, PLEASE go find it! He would never have left. As it is, when I left I had to go stay with my parents almost a month because he was living in my apartment and dragged ass about getting out, despite being much better off financially. I had to get a mini storage and pay people to move his stuff into it.  My dad was furious because my parents own the apartment I rent and here I am paying rent on it but staying in their house because my abusive insane husband won't leave.

[TitaniumPhoebe]

It really doesn't matter whether they disappear or return to poke you in the eye w a sharp stick-- bc it's about your desires, not  theirs. If you desire the krazies who burn bight, then don't pine for stability; if you desire stability, then don't accept the nutters; if you desire a combination of the two, then walk the tightrope but don't complain that there is no safety net. See, we are all free agents in this one life and can control our des-tin-knees.

so true! I'll trade excitement for stability any day. I've had enough excitement for a lifetime. Unfortunately the man I married I thought was a good, decent guy who would be there for me and genuinely loved me, and I missed all the red flags.  Now I won't hesitate to end it after a few red flags start flying. It's not worth it. And I will probably never even be willing to go on a second date again with anyone who tells me they have a fear of abandonment.  I was with my ex-husband and then the guy after, both had that intense abandonment fear, and both started making my head spin with childish tantrums and irrational behavior.

[willy45]

Childish tantrums... . That brings up memories. She once sat in the grass crying for an hour because I didn't want to take my bike on the metro. There's more to it, I guess. But she just sat there picking the grass and balling her eyes out because I invited her for a bike ride. She wanted to go somewhere that would require us taking the bike on the metro. I didn't. It made me uncomfortable and I just wanted to bike around because it was a nice day. She kept after me to find out why. I told her every logical reason... . We didn't have time, it made me uncomfortable on a busy metro, and it was nice out and wanted to enjoy the fresh air. She kept at me until I just said: why does it matter other than the fact that I don't want to. Then it was hysterics from her. Screaming at me in public, telling me she was having a wonderful day until this ( in public by the way), and the we biked off, she found a patch of grass and then cried there for an hour. Story number 217.

[TitaniumPhoebe]

Childish tantrums... . That brings up memories. She once sat in the grass crying for an hour because I didn't want to take my bike on the metro. There's more to it, I guess. But she just sat there picking the grass and balling her eyes out because I invited her for a bike ride. She wanted to go somewhere that would require us taking the bike on the metro. I didn't. It made me uncomfortable and I just wanted to bike around because it was a nice day. She kept after me to find out why. I told her every logical reason... . We didn't have time, it made me uncomfortable on a busy metro, and it was nice out and wanted to enjoy the fresh air. She kept at me until I just said: why does it matter other than the fact that I don't want to. Then it was hysterics from her. Screaming at me in public, telling me she was having a wonderful day until this ( in public by the way), and the we biked off, she found a patch of grass and then cried there for an hour. Story number 217.

My ex-husband took me out for my 40th birthday to a nice restaurant. I had a pretty black dress on, trying to have a good time even though he had been acting all weird.  He starts SOBBING in the restaurant and I had to drag him out like a little kid throwing a fit.  His reaction would have been appropriate for someone who had lost a loved one suddenly.  But he was sobbing because we hadn't had sex in like four days or so.  I live close to where we were (in fact he knew the owner so he SHOULD have been more embarassed than me) and I had to drag him all the way home sobbing.  He stopped on the way and i got mad telling him he's making a complete ass of himself in the neighborhood I've lived in for years and my brother and parents live in. He's standing there on the street crying going "It's good to express your emotions."  I mean he really looked like a two-year-old who had their favorite toy taken away.  Of course this invokes a caretaker response in me I guess, but at the same time I was utterly humiliated and freaked out and upset as it's my 40th birthday.  When we get home I'm like "what do you WANT from me?" He falls down sobbing on the bathroom floor going "I just want you to be a wife!"  We had been married about a month then. I was so upset I called my mom (who lives close) to help me. It was either her or the cops because I didn't know what to do I was so freaked out.  I was in the bathroom in my pretty strapless dress a complete mess.  He knows I'm calling my mom and starts mocking me, "Oh, go call your MOMMY!"  I knew he'd been suicidal before and had the cops come to his condo and take him to the pscyh ward once, so when my mom was asking if I was in danger I told her that and said I was worried he might hurt himself. well, he overheard me and got pissed I told my mom he had been in the psych ward (though I'm sure at this point it's no shock to her.)  It was one of many times my mom had to come and get me or I fled to her house.  It was like a bad dream. 

[1KitKat]

I think my husband has what I have seen referred to as 'Transparent BPD'.  It was described on another website as this: 

"The Transparent Borderline is a bit of a mix between a high functioning borderline and either extroverted or introverted tendencies. In plain terms, Transparent Borderlines live double lives: on the surface, “in public”, they appear one way, but in private, amongst immediate family and friends, they appear completely different. As a result, they may or may not be high functioning due to this conflicted state of mind. Transparent Borderlines spend most of their emotional energy trying to balance the personality demands of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, the both of which experience strong BPD emotions like anyone else with the disease. Like Introverted Borderlines, Transparent Borderlines are harder to spot, and often only confess their true disposition after a harrowing rage, major break up, or other severely traumatic event that brings all their BPD feelings to the fore."

That is exactly what happened in my (or our) case.  He is/was one way on the workfront and with his friends (friendly, laughing, outgoing, sociable), and completely different at home.  Now that we're separated, he's gotten a little better at actually talking (and by this I mean simply 'how are you' or 'what did you do this week' - still nothing about his inner feelings).

Everything was so, so nice in the early years of our relationship and marriage, and in retrospect I guess it was because there was no (perceived) threat to his alter-persona.  All the ingredients were there, for him, to settle in nicely.  I got him out of bankruptcy, he had a house to come live in (with furniture!), his kids had their own bedrooms here, his life went from being all alone (sort of... .   he had just left a previous gf which I only found out about later) to being the perfect little family. 

When I started to unknowingly poke holes in this persona (for lack of a better word), he retreated, and he became angry and cruel.  That's when the baiting and gaslighting started, that's when the porn surfing was taken to an all-time high, that's when he started contacting ex girlfriends and, finally, visiting the strip clubs alone for the lap dances.  When I found out about this last one I freaked out, and he voluntarily sought therapy which he has been pursuing for a year now.  It has been a long road for him fraught with emotional potholes and stalling on his part.  In fact, it was only a week ago today that he finally admitted to the therapist that he has been deliberately manipulating my emotions because he is 'angry' with me.  He has also said that he does not really know WHY he is angry with me.  I could have contributed to the answer on that one, but I've elected to let him go to that ugly place inside of him and identify it for himself.  I don't know if he'll ever find out, but it's almost immaterial to me right now.  What was important was for me to realize that his behaviour was not caused by me (ie I am not the root cause of his pain) and that, yes, he does have a PD which he managed to keep under wraps with me for many years.  That was HUGE for me.

This man is paralyzed with fear and hugely angry because I have exposed him.  The therapist keeps telling him that this is not a blocking point, rather that he is facing a doorway and that she wants to help him to walk through it, and not keep himself on the 'wrong' side.  For the sake of our son, I hope that he passes through and can be healthier for it.  He's got a long way to go, if he so chooses.   

[Ihope2]

I found this on "Wikipedia"

Millon's subtypes

Theodore Millon has proposed four subtypes of BPD. He suggests that an individual diagnosed with BPD may exhibit none, one, or more of the following:

Subtype   Features:

Discouraged (including avoidant features)

Pliant, submissive, loyal, humble; feels vulnerable and in constant jeopardy; feels hopeless, depressed, helpless, and powerless.

Petulant (including negativistic features)

Negativistic, impatient, restless, as well as stubborn defiant, sullen, pessimistic, and resentful; easily slighted and quickly disillusioned.

Impulsive (including histrionic or antisocial features)   Capricious, superficial, flighty, distractible, frenetic, and seductive; fearing loss, becomes agitated, and gloomy and irritable; potentially suicidal.

Self-destructive (including depressive or masochistic features)   Inward-turning, intropunitively angry; conforming, deferential, and ingratiating behaviors have deteriorated; increasingly high-strung and moody; possible suicide.