Need your input-still haunted by conversation

[Depression = 72% of members]

Okay. So what I am about to write may be very disturbing to some, so I apologize in advance.

I don't know if anyone else has been a victim of sexual abuse, but I was. I say was, because I no longer identify with the label of victim.


I was molested by my father, and I archived these memories for many years. Right before I went NC with parents, I had a bizarre and disturbing conversation with my uNPD father. What prompted the NC was a card I had given to some dear friends who were celebrating an anniversary. My mother wormed her way into the dinner I hosted for them and read the card. She looked totally dejected and I refused to engage her.

Several days passed with me calling to make arrangements for my dad's birthday. No response, even though I left messages. Finally, I reached them and was not prepared for the conversation. My father reported that he and my mother were hurt by what I wrote in the card to my friends. I wrote "Love you both." My father stated that this meant that I didn't love them. It was in this moment that I had my epiphany and realized how crazy they were.  I expressed this to him and told him that I just couldn't do this anymore.

Somewhere in this conversation, my dad asks if I received his letter. No, I replied, I hadn't. He went on to tell me that he wrote me a letter explaining why he was looking at porn. (Several years before, my mom had found him surfing the net looking at porn. This became a huge family drama that I did not participate in, but heard a lot about from my sister.) I asked him why he felt the need to explain to ME why he was looking at porn. Okay, here is where I felt stripped to the bone. He responded that he was impotent and thought that looking at porn would help him eradicate this problem.   What? He went on to tell me that he even looked at porn of men and if he became aroused looking at that he was going to kill himself.   He felt the need to explain this to me because I have  a degree in Psychology I would understand.   I was mortified. I really couldn't believe what I was hearing. I had to repeat what he said, because I had to hear myself say it to believe it. He confirmed that this was why he wrote me the letter. So that I could help him with his impotence.    The only words that I could muster were: ":)o you realize who you are telling this to? I am your DAUGHTER! I am not your wife, lover, or doctor! So you thought that it made sense to tell me, and not see a doctor for this problem!" He stated that yes, he felt that I would understand. ?

Really, after all these years, this one conversation still haunts me. I don't know what to make of it. On a rational level, I know he is mentally ill. I get that he has no boundaries. I understand that he could not see me as his child, but rather a partner. I guess I just don't understand how he could think this way when he only one other time confided in me that he thought my mother was in love with someone else. It wasn't as if I was his continuous confidant.

Please help me make sense of this. Maybe there is no way to make sense of this. Really struggling with this, and any insight or comments would be greatly appreciated.

[clljhns]

Okay. So what I am about to write may be very disturbing to some, so I apologize in advance.

I don't know if anyone else has been a victim of sexual abuse, but I was. I say was, because I no longer identify with the label of victim.


I was molested by my father, and I archived these memories for many years. Right before I went NC with parents, I had a bizarre and disturbing conversation with my uNPD father. What prompted the NC was a card I had given to some dear friends who were celebrating an anniversary. My mother wormed her way into the dinner I hosted for them and read the card. She looked totally dejected and I refused to engage her.

Several days passed with me calling to make arrangements for my dad's birthday. No response, even though I left messages. Finally, I reached them and was not prepared for the conversation. My father reported that he and my mother were hurt by what I wrote in the card to my friends. I wrote "Love you both." My father stated that this meant that I didn't love them. It was in this moment that I had my epiphany and realized how crazy they were.  I expressed this to him and told him that I just couldn't do this anymore.

Somewhere in this conversation, my dad asks if I received his letter. No, I replied, I hadn't. He went on to tell me that he wrote me a letter explaining why he was looking at porn. (Several years before, my mom had found him surfing the net looking at porn. This became a huge family drama that I did not participate in, but heard a lot about from my sister.) I asked him why he felt the need to explain to ME why he was looking at porn. Okay, here is where I felt stripped to the bone. He responded that he was impotent and thought that looking at porn would help him eradicate this problem.   What? He went on to tell me that he even looked at porn of men and if he became aroused looking at that he was going to kill himself.   He felt the need to explain this to me because I have  a degree in Psychology I would understand.   I was mortified. I really couldn't believe what I was hearing. I had to repeat what he said, because I had to hear myself say it to believe it. He confirmed that this was why he wrote me the letter. So that I could help him with his impotence.    The only words that I could muster were: ":)o you realize who you are telling this to? I am your DAUGHTER! I am not your wife, lover, or doctor! So you thought that it made sense to tell me, and not see a doctor for this problem!" He stated that yes, he felt that I would understand. ?

Really, after all these years, this one conversation still haunts me. I don't know what to make of it. On a rational level, I know he is mentally ill. I get that he has no boundaries. I understand that he could not see me as his child, but rather a partner. I guess I just don't understand how he could think this way when he only one other time confided in me that he thought my mother was in love with someone else. It wasn't as if I was his continuous confidant.

Please help me make sense of this. Maybe there is no way to make sense of this. Really struggling with this, and any insight or comments would be greatly appreciated.

[1KitKat]

I feel that this is very narcissistic, but you as a psychologist would better be able to tag it.  So much of your story is similar to mine. Although I was not molested by my father, I was molested by other men in the family. And I was the caretaker for my parents relationship. I remember as a child, a teen, and then an adult telling my mother "I am not responsible for your relationship with my Dad."

I felt, or was made to feel dirty, useless, and ugly. I guess that is why I became a caretaker for my parents' relationship, as well as a caretaker for my last relationship, and now my soon- to-be-last relationship with my husband. In some way, I thought it would validate my existence.

On to the next piece. My current husband, to whom I refer now as an ex, is a porn surfer. He also visits strip clubs and has private, VIP dances, Full Contact, with strippers. In one of his infrequent moments of full-faced honesty, he admitted to me that his favorite stripper, by the name of Linda, is 24 years old. He is 50 years old. When I pointed out that Linda was only four years older than his own daughter, I received a blank stare. I cannot for the life of me tell you if he's actually processing that piece of information, or is he just pointed out, or indeed if he doesn't even care. I think that he does understand that this is just a little bit weird, and in my own opinion, I think that he has just chosen not to go to that ugly place.

So, I have strayed a little from your main topic. But I can tell you that my mother reached out to me incessantly to help her repair her relationship with my father until I finally stopped it.   He finally passed from a cancer-related illness, and I do believe he departed because of his intense grief. She lasted another 10 years, and then died unexpectedly from ALS, which had been diagnosed two weeks previous.

I hope that this resonates with you. I was a captive in my parents' relationship, and then I became a captive in my own relationships as a result. No child should ever be responsible for the health and welfare of their parents, and my message to you is that I walked.  Totally. I walked away from that, and now I will walk away from being the eternal caretaker for my husband and his kids from a previous relationship that ended in the same manner that ours will.  I guess that is my lesson on earth. And I am learning it.  And I was made to understand that my parents only gave me what they got in their own parental relationships. This still pains me, not because I couldn't help them, but because it's screwed up my own relationships. But at least I recognize it.  Stay strong. 

[Kwamina]

Hi there clljhns,

Thanks for sharing this. Incidents like this aren't easy to discuss and by sharing this experience you might also help others.

Somewhere in this conversation, my dad asks if I received his letter. No, I replied, I hadn't. He went on to tell me that he wrote me a letter explaining why he was looking at porn. (Several years before, my mom had found him surfing the net looking at porn. This became a huge family drama that I did not participate in, but heard a lot about from my sister.) I asked him why he felt the need to explain to ME why he was looking at porn. Okay, here is where I felt stripped to the bone. He responded that he was impotent and thought that looking at porn would help him eradicate this problem.   What? He went on to tell me that he even looked at porn of men and if he became aroused looking at that he was going to kill himself.   He felt the need to explain this to me because I have  a degree in Psychology I would understand.   I was mortified. I really couldn't believe what I was hearing. I had to repeat what he said, because I had to hear myself say it to believe it. He confirmed that this was why he wrote me the letter. So that I could help him with his impotence.    The only words that I could muster were: ":)o you realize who you are telling this to? I am your DAUGHTER! I am not your wife, lover, or doctor! So you thought that it made sense to tell me, and not see a doctor for this problem!" He stated that yes, he felt that I would understand. ?

I absolutely get why you're still haunted by this bizarre conversation and I would definitely classify this as a form of emotional incest. Making sense of these types of behavior isn't easy. I think the only way to make any sense of it is by keeping in mind that it was said by someone with a personality disorder who's mind just works in a completely different way. I've had several incidents with my own uBPD mother that I would classify as emotional incest too and they also really bothered me, not only because it was totally inappropriate but also because they left me feel disgusted and 'dirty'. As a child you don't wanna feel like your parent's partner but when they act this way they make you think of things you have totally no desire to think about.

[clljhns]

Thank you 1KitKat and Kwamina,

You are right, it did make me feel dirty and disgusting. It felt like I was right back there 30 years before being molested by him all over again.

Yes, 1 KitKat, it did resonate, as I also felt very captive by my entire family. Even though I was not the golden child as my oldest sister was and made to be the surrogate partner of my mom, I still felt very much enmeshed with my parents. It took a long time to find my autonomy.

Thank you both for your words of support and encouragement! (BTY, I am not a Psychologist, just have a Bachelor's degree in Psychology. I know now that I took this path to understand my family better. But I didn't stay with it. I changed careers fifteen years ago and so, I don't feel that knowledgeable about psychopathology.  )

[1KitKat]

Well, that is also very interesting, your remarks about not being the golden child. When I was in my 20s, my father, after a few stiff drinks, said "you know, your sister was always my favorite.".

My sister left home when she was 18 years old, I understand now in order to preserve her own sanity. We have discussed this at great length since my mother's death. Your story so mirrors my own. And I thank you for sharing, please keep writing.

[clljhns]

1KitKat,

No I was not the golden child. My oldest sister was. My brother was invisible, my middle sister was absent as she was sent to a residential facility for her profound brain damage, my other sister was the black sheep, and I was the lost child. Once my parents told my brother and black sheep sister to not come back, I was placed in the role of the black/white child. Sometimes I was good, and then sometimes I was bad. Actually, as I think about all of this, my oldest sister was also assigned this role. My mom would call me and complain about my oldest sister, and then she would call my oldest sister and complain about me. My sister and I talked about this when I was about 35. We realized that she was still attempting to divide and conquer. At this point, we agreed to tell out mother to talk to the one she was upset with directly and we would no longer be the messenger. I know that I upheld my part. My mother was furious and not very accepting of the new rule. She would walk all over my boundary repeatedly. On several occasions I had to hang up the phone on her because she was so relentless.

Interesting, family dynamics, don't you think?

[1KitKat]

Very interesting, because they mirror the dynamics of our family. Although we were only two children, my older sister was the golden child. She told me last year that she felt intense pressure to perform, and when she could perform no more, she had to leave.

[1KitKat]

And unintentionally, I became the doormat. And yes, my mother would call one and complain about the other and vice versa. Just like you. That piece of the dynamic was solved quite a few years ago, when my sister and I spoke with it and we decided to break the circle by not continuing this behavior between ourselves. But our mom did try to put one up against the other. And guess what? Her mother tried to do the same thing with her and her sister. I am glad that my sister and I figure her out.

[G.J.]

Hi clljhns,

This is one of the most difficult responses I've ever written.  So much of your post resonates with me.

Please help me make sense of this. Maybe there is no way to make sense of this. Really struggling with this, and any insight or comments would be greatly appreciated.

I fear my perspective is going to be disturbing.  While I'm certainly no expert, all of my instincts are firing and I think I might be able to shed some light for you.  But PLEASE accept my apologies in advance if my perspective isn't helpful to you.   I know what I'm about to say is really ugly.   :'( 

My first thought was the same as 1KitKat -- your father strongly strikes me as a Narcissist.  (So much so, that your post has been triggering me since I read it this morning!)

And as Kwamina mentioned, if you haven't investigated "emotional incest," I surely would.  It can actually create as much psychological damage as physical incest.  While you mentioned that he only came to you with inappropriate information one other time, there may be other types of emotional incest that he was engaging in that you are currently unaware of.

Here are some articles that have helped me so far:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-intelligent-divorce/201303/the-narcissistic-father

www.lightshouse.org/the-narcissistic-parent.html#axzz306mx4Oa4  (This entire website is terrific but this page may speak directly to your dad.)

www.melanietoniaevans.com/articles/narcissism-understood.htm  (This website is geared towards romantic relationships but I've found the author to be very insightful.)

www.silcom.com/~joy2meu/joy_21.htm

www.drbeckywahkinney.vpweb.com/upload/The%20Emotional%20Incest%20Syndrome.pdf

To give you context on how I explain your dad's behavior (below), I think it's important to share my perspective on BPD versus NPD.  I believe the two have a lot of the same traits, but operate from a different premise.  I'm not a Psychologist, and this may not be 100% textbook accurate, but this is what I've surmised based on my own experiences:

I think that pwBPD mainly operate from a position of fear, and that their behavior is often unconscious, reactionary and somewhat out of their control.  While they often lack the ability to have empathy or compassion when feeling triggered -- when they're NOT feeling threatened by a perceived abandonment, they do have the capacity for those emotions.  And while they can be crazier and nastier than anyone I've ever met, I do think at their core, they're not inherently conscienceless or evil.  (Which makes the disease all the more crazy-making for the rest of us.)  Their illness can be improved with intense therapy, as the root of the problem is the distorted lens through which they filter other people's words and actions.

On the other hand, I think pwNPD operate from a "predatory" position because they are utterly empty inside and cannot sustain themselves emotionally.  They need others to validate their existence with continuous "mirroring" of their grandiose self-image, and can literally become suicidal within an hour, if no one is giving them this kind of attention (aka Narcissistic Supply).  Therefore, pwNPD have to "feed" off of others like a vampire feeds off of people for its lifeblood.  To them, other people are not humans with feelings, needs, vulnerabilities or lives of their own.  They are OBJECTS from which they need to extract supply, which is why you will never see any genuine remorse, empathy, compassion, etc from them after they find out they have harmed you.  [Who feels remorse towards - or empathy for - the cell phone they threw against the wall and broke, when they needed to release some anger and aggression?]

Ultimately, what they are looking for is someone else's 100% focus on THEM -- good or bad.  And the more flattering the source or situation, and the more intense the attention, the better.  Their immediate need at the moment, determines the type of attention they're after and who they might look to to get it.  pwNPD often have "preferred" sources of N-Supply (i.e. their lovers over their children), but when those people aren't available, they'll take ANYONE in a pinch.  They're remarkably indiscriminatory.

In general, positive attention is ideal, and comes in the form of adoration, love, praise, devotion, sex, admiration, jealousy, pity, concern, aid, compliance, submission, etc.  But if that is not forthcoming or requires too much effort -- negative attention in the form of fear, loathing, horror, outrage, pain, shock, dismay, etc will CERTAINLY do.  Either way, 100% of their life is geared towards one agenda:  Charming, cajoling, tricking, manipulating, and even forcing N-Supply out of others.

But pwNPD learned early-on that people don't always "want" to focus on them 100%, and people "frustratingly" sometimes insist on having needs or feelings of their own.  pwNPD view this as an aggressive maneuver towards them and something to be overcome.  So they've learned to play "the game" by pretending to be whomever, say whatever, or promise whatever the other person needs in order to gain their N-Supply.  And when that doesn't work, they will attack, rage, accuse, pressure, blackmail, lie or guilt trip the person into giving it to them.

pwNPD will only go to therapy as a means to an end: i.e. a manipulation to keep the other person roped in as a source of N-Supply, or to manipulate the T into "fixing" the non-compliant source who has started to set boundaries, OR to extract N-Supply from the T themselves.  (I've witnessed all 3.)  No matter what they say to the contrary (as children they learn quickly how to fake having normal human emotions) relationships to them are not about mutuality, respect, compromise, care, concern, etc -- they're just a means to an end for them, and the more intense the relationship, the more intense the attention they can garner (the better the N-Supply).

Ok -- all of that being said:

My father stated that this meant that I didn't love them. It was in this moment that I had my epiphany and realized how crazy they were.

This really jumped off the page for me.  I've seen this type of crazy behavior as well.

I think in "BPD World" (your mom) the thought process probably went something like this:  "If she loves them, she won't have enough room in her heart to love us."  OR, "She never writes that to us, so she must not love us."

I think in "NPD World" (your dad) it translated into:  "You're giving N-Supply to someone else [which is a major no-no].  I'm going to guilt trip you for doing that, accuse you of not loving us to make you feel bad, so you'll deny it and tell me over and over how much you do love me [thereby giving me N-Supply]."

I expressed this to him and told him that I just couldn't do this anymore.  Somewhere in this conversation, my dad asks if I received his letter.

A pwNPD being told that someone is going NC with them, is interpreted like this:  "One of my biggest sources of N-Supply is able to walk away from me as if I don't exist.  And if I don't exist to her, then I must not exist."  Remember, they need "mirroring" of their grandiose self-image to know that they're alive.  A lack of acknowledgement of their power and/or existence, causes a "Narcissistic Injury" which is extremely painful for them.  To protect themselves from this sense of annihilation, they respond by saying or doing something extreme to prove that they can still dramatically affect you and generate an extreme reaction (either good or bad), to make themselves feel powerful and alive again.

I don't want to jump to conclusions or further confuse the issue, but my gut says:  He never sent you a letter.  You told him you were going to permanently take away his N-Supply, so he upped the ante to extract some "ultimate" N-Supply out of you.  Either hoping to keep you roped in with this new information, or by at least getting the most that he could from you before you walked away.

(I know this is hideous... . PLEASE forgive me if I'm being too honest.)

I asked him why he felt the need to explain to ME why he was looking at porn. Okay, here is where I felt stripped to the bone. He responded that he was impotent and thought that looking at porn would help him eradicate this problem.

I think you felt stripped to the bone, because he utterly failed to acknowledge YOU in his answer.  His answer was STILL "all about him" (classic narcissism).  You were an object to him, and he all but said that in his reply.  He de-humanized you -- which is what NPD's do.  It's soul shattering.

He felt the need to explain this to me because I have a degree in Psychology I would understand.

Again, it's "all about him."  You don't exist to him as a person.  He needed you to hear this, so he told you.

But truly, I doubt he genuinely wanted your understanding.  I think the "letter" and your Psych Degree were just parts of his "story" to explain away why he was bringing up this topic to you (of all people) and now (of all times).  It's not like he's going to say, "I needed to know that I AM still alive and I DO still have power over you.  This topic was all I could think of to get a rise out of you to hear your shock, awe, pain, horror etc [N-Supply].  So I lied about sending you a letter so I had an excuse in bringing it up, so I could get you to mirror back to me that I am still capable of strongly affecting you."

(Like I said -- if they can't get positive attention from you -- which you told him you were no longer going to give him -- they will gladly take negative attention, and the more horrific the better.)

I had to repeat what he said, because I had to hear myself say it to believe it.

The only words that I could muster were: ":)o you realize who you are telling this to? I am your DAUGHTER! I am not your wife, lover, or doctor! So you thought that it made sense to tell me, and not see a doctor for this problem!"

To him, your response doesn't translate into, "Hmmm maybe I should self-reflect here.  Perhaps I shouldn't have told her this.  Let me try to understand how she feels... . "  Instead, your reaction to him is exactly what he was looking for:  Intense Narcissistic Supply.

Really, after all these years, this one conversation still haunts me.

Which is exactly what he wanted.    (Sorry.)  Nothing makes a pwNPD feel more powerful, than knowing they are still able to affect others even after they're gone.  I'm pretty sure your father is well aware that his daughter is not likely to "forget" a conversation like that.

I guess I just don't understand how he could think this way when he only one other time confided in me that he thought my mother was in love with someone else. It wasn't as if I was his continuous confidant.

Because that's not the place he was coming from.

Some parents are emotionally incestuous with their children for "innocent" reasons and have no idea they're harming them by becoming their BFF's.  (A good book on this is, "What to Do When a Parent's Love Rules Your Life" by Dr. Patricia Love.)

Instead, your father took what he wanted from you (physically and emotionally) when his needs were going unmet by others, regardless of the obvious harm it was doing to you.

It wasn't as if I was his continuous confidant.

It wasn't about you being a confidante for him.  It was about garnering N-Supply from you.  Shock and horror during the conversation about the porn.  And most likely, "No, no dad!  You're lovable and wonderful!  I'm sure mom loves you!" when he inappropriately confided in you about his marital problems.

Their ONLY motive in life, is getting N-Supply.  Period.  It's the air they breathe, and just like if we were cut off from our oxygen supply, all of our attention and focus would be on getting it back at all cost.

I know what I've said is really sick, but that's my genuine take... .   I do hope it helps (or at least didn't harm)... .      I'm genuinely so sorry for everything you've survived.

[sandraD]

What makes this borderline disorder so horrible is the fact that the people in our lives that have it can do such despicable things to us and just sit there and act like they are totally innocent of any wrongdoing.  I am going to go and start seeing a therapist very soon for my mixed up life due to my mother's despicable behavior that she has burdened our lives with.  It would take me a long time to put down every abuse both verbal and physical that me and my siblings and even my children have gone through because of her disorder.  I used to wonder why in this world could she do such bad things to her children and then five minutes later act like nothing was wrong.  It is par for the course for them to have a total brain shutdown when they do these things to their families.  My poor elderly daddy died in March of a stroke and he had been living in a dire situation that could have been rectified but my brother who I think is probably suffering from the same disorder allowed him to live in squalor for over year or two and never told anyone what was going on.  My mother who was divorced from my dad several years ago always made us choose sides and she led me to believe that daddy used to beat her and she never told me that she beat on him instead and that is why he had to leave us.  Just a few days before he died he finally told me the truth and I feel so angry and betrayed right now that I do not know what I am going to do next.  I have yelled and told my mother off but she just sits there and acts like she never did anything wrong, although she finally did admit to hitting him and some other people in the family have come forth and said that she did hit him.  What do I do with this anyway?  She abused me and my younger brother so much when we were growing up and she never got into trouble for it either.  I guess I am writing this to tell you that this horrible brain problem that these people in our lives have, is something that we just have to decide for ourselves if we want these people in our lives or not.  Your dad has already violated your personhood and rights and it is up to you whether you still continue to talk to him or not.  You have every right to tell him and your mother goodbye and do not ever cross my path again.  That is what they deserve in my opinion.  I practically have done that with my mother by moving over 400 miles away from her and believe me it has been the right thing to do.  My children and I would never have had the peace and life that we have now if we had not moved away from that.  I regret that I was not there for my dad when he needed me because of my terrible relationship with my mother.  It is what it is and there is no changing it.  She never went to a psychiatrist and got help for her disorder, she just put her husband and children through hell over it and she claims to be such a good Christian too.  You should do what you feel is best for you and like everyone says, take care of yourself and be good to you because those people with this disorder are not looking out for us. 

[clljhns]

G.J.,

Thank you so much for your response and all of the links. You spent a great deal of time in answering every part of my post. I thank you for your honesty, and can only say that I am grateful to you for your compassionate words. I spent a great deal of time reading them and found something interesting.

What often happens is that ':)addy's little princess' or 'Mommy's big boy' becomes an adult who has good friends of the opposite sex that they can be emotionally intimate with but would never think of being sexually involved with (and feel dreadfully betrayed by, when those friends express sexual interest) and are sexually excited by members of the opposite sex whom they don't like and can't trust (they may feel they are desperately 'in love' with such a person but in reality don't really like their personality). This is an unconscious way of not betraying mommy or daddy by having sex with someone that they are emotionally intimate with and truly care about as a person. 

This slapped me square in the face. I have another piece of the puzzle at least to why I chose men who were emotionally unavailable to me. It is very true that I always chose men that I really didn't like and knew I couldn't trust them. Wow! This is revolutionary for me! I can't tell you how much you helped me.

I think you felt stripped to the bone, because he utterly failed to acknowledge YOU in his answer.  His answer was STILL "all about him" (classic narcissism).  You were an object to him, and he all but said that in his reply.  He de-humanized you -- which is what NPD's do.  It's soul shattering.

Yes. It was soul shattering. But your words are true. I, like all of my siblings, were just objects.

I am so sorry that this post triggered an unpleasant or traumatic memory for you. I realize that reading these posts brings back to much for me, and it that way, I can bring to light any hidden memories from my subconscious and shine a light on them for review and healing. I hope that you can find a way to use this as a tool for healing. Again, I am so sorry for your pain.

I am now a little confused because my dad was not charismatic, nor a rage-filled person. He was very introverted at home. He didn't speak to us. He did sit on his "throne" while my mother would flitter around him like a moth to flame, catering to his every need. My father NEVER prepared his own plate of food, my mother did and would serve him on a tray. It used to enrage me when I saw her acting like a slave to him. Now, here is where it gets a little crazy. My mother would go into one her rages at my dad, and he would sit there with his head down. Never responding. I even saw her throw a cup of coffee in his face and he just sat there. This doesn't sound like a Narcissist. I found out when I was a young adult that he was the life of the party at his job.   I was told by a friend whose father worked with him, that he was always joking around and had a smile on his face.   How does this mesh? He rarely smiled at home, didn't talk to us, and certainly never joked around. He did insist that we all go to college and he specifically told me that I would be a brain surgeon. What? I had no desire to do this! I do remember when he would return from his night shift job, he would present me with a  candy bar, and nothing for my siblings. They would be getting ready to get on the bus, and he would hand me the candy bar. The look on their faces cut me to the core. I would share my candy bar. I was his little "genius" as he told me and others. He had high hopes that I would be something great. Where these the traits of NPD, or were some of these just grooming behaviors for the molestation?

Maybe he's not NPD. I don't know. So know, I want to know what category of PD he falls in.

SandraD,

Thank you for your support and commiseration. I am so sorry that you are in such a terrible and painful situation, and I am so sorry for the loss of your father. I am so glad to know that you are going to see a therapist. One of the trade-marks of an NPD is distorting the truth, and even creating "truths" to benefit their purpose. I have been NC for ten years from my parents, but find that some of the wounds are still very deep, and so again I have to do the work for the healing. May you find much peace and healing along your journey.

Peace and blessings 

[G.J.]

Really quick, but I'll write more in the next couple of days -- not much time right now... .

I'm no expert on the topic of NPD and I learn more about it every day.  But I do have a lot more to say on what I've noticed about these types of people... .   It's a bizarre illness.

The paragraph you copied and pasted about "good friends of opposite sex, but date the jerks you know you shouldn't" -- YUP.  Me too.   

To answer a couple of your questions:

There are 2 different types of Narcissists.  I think they call them Cerebral and Somatic (or something to that effect -- in their head, and sexual -- basically.)  The somatic ones are usually pretty outgoing, go-getters, rageful, etc.  The cerebral ones are quite introverted, almost asexual, self-righteous, lazy -- now that I think about it, that kind of describes what you've said about your dad.

In my experience, they come in all "shapes and sizes" and are pretty tough to pick out right away.  The "braggart, big shot stereotype" that everyone associates with "narcissism" is pretty off the mark, in my experience.  That's usually someone who is just full of themselves, or even insecure and trying to make up for it.  NPD is much more sinister and evil.  It's one step away from ASPD (sociopath).  Yes they think they're perfect, yes they want everyone to admire them and be jealous of them -- but the way they go about it isn't typically obvious.  They're much more covert and manipulative about it, and they have zero empathy or care for other people (unless they can use them).

Second, pwNPD are the ULTIMATE chameleons.  They have very little true identity.  Seriously.  If you were to ask X person to describe a particular Narcissist -- and then ask Y person who knows them in a different arena of their life (home, versus work, versus school, versus friends) -- in many cases, they would give you such different descriptions, you'd think they were talking about completely different people.  Things that one person "knows" as a FOR SURE core part of that person's belief system, personality, character traits, priorities, likes/dislikes, etc -- another person "knows" the total opposite about this very same person.  I've seen instances where I've understood the flip-flop, and I've seen other instances that seem utterly arbitrary and make absolutely no sense (that I can perceive anyway).  I could give you examples of this that would make your head spin.

Third -- the candy bar.  This reminds me of a NPD guy I dated that had young kids.  He put his daughter on an unbelievable pedestal and spoiled her rotten and paid all of his attention to her.  His son on the other hand (who was actually a really good kid) he was almost downright cruel to at times, and would all but ignore his existence.  I was in a constant struggle with him to treat them equally and stop being so mean to his son.  We'd say "No snacks before dinner."  Daughter would ask for cookies, and he'd give her some.     Son would chime in, "Can I have a snack too?"  Dad would SCREAM at him "NO!"  And then proceed to put him down.  So daughter sits there happily eating cookies in front of son, son is furious, the rest of the evening is now a complete mess AND I know I'm in for an argument later that night, when I confront him on how wrong this is.  Towards the end, I really got the impression he was doing this just to cause drama with everyone.  Make things awful between son and daughter, put me in a bad spot -- the whole 9 yards.  I honestly think they live to puppeteer others, so they can feel powerful and in control, and keep themselves the center of attention and everyone else off balance.

More later.  Gotta run.  Hope that clears up some stuff for you. 

[clljhns]

G.J.

Thank you for the info!

There are 2 different types of Narcissists.  I think they call them Cerebral and Somatic (or something to that effect -- in their head, and sexual -- basically.)  The somatic ones are usually pretty outgoing, go-getters, rageful, etc.  The cerebral ones are quite introverted, almost asexual, self-righteous, lazy -- now that I think about it, that kind of describes what you've said about your dad.

I had never heard about the two types listed above. I think my dad definitely falls into the cerebral N category. I also remembered that he would fondle our mom in front of us kids.   I mean, he would grab her breasts in front of us and her bottom.   My mom is a very voluptuous woman and my oldest sister has the same body type. My sister who is 2 years older and I have a very slender frame, that is definitely not curvy. When we both entered puberty he made nasty remarks to us, calling us "puss pockets" and "pine cones" to describe our almost non-existent breasts.   I had swept this from my mind for many years until my sister reminded me of this six years ago. Horrible is all I can say. I still can't believe some of the demeaning things he did say when, on those rare occasions, he actually opened his mouth.

My, God, when I think back to all of the nasty, terrible things my parents hurled at us, it is no wonder that all of my siblings have chosen to escape reality!

Peace and blessings