Mixing intimacy and BPD dysregulation/misbehavior... how should I respond

[formflier]

So... . I've spent the morning at a public park on some wireless internet and getting some productive writing done for my work.

Really nice day here.

I was going to head out early around 630 or 7 to do this... . but my uBPDw came upstairs to bedroom and seemed to want to snuggle.  (I'm guessing she is in the "I've moved out of bedroom" phase again... . who knows)  So... we snuggled she slept some and I kept asking her when she would wake up for a bit if she would let me take her to breakfast.  This is me trying to have a positive fun day with her.

She kept saying yes but didn't want to get moving.  I was starving and was ready to go at 7.  So... after 2 hours of snuggle/sleep she starts wanting to get frisky.  Fine... . but once she got me good and interested and (I'll just be blunt and clear here) almost to climax... . she asks if I want her to continue.  (There is a history of playfullness in this area before... . so I'm not worried a bit... . at this point).  Of course I say yes.  And then the bomb drops... . if I give her my password for my computer and gmail she will "give me what I want".  Let's just say that was a mood killer.  I didn't get mad or respond negatively... . I think I mumbled something about not remembering or talk later about it.

I asked her again after laying there a bit if she wanted to go to breakfast.  There was some stomping around the room on her part talking about I wouldn't get what I wanted unless she got what she wanted... . talking through the wall in another room.  I left to go downstairs to be out of earshot.

Went back up... hoping it had calmed down and asked if she was ready to go for breakfast... . said she would be ready in a "while"... . and some more light huffing about things. 

Then she says she is too busy to go and I was supposed to take one of my kids.  I went and asked one of my kids that was up and he was very hesitant (most likely because Mommy hadn't instructed him about what was going to happen today).  Sometimes if they start doing something with me she will countermand what I started and kids will follow her direction to avoid the flamethrower mouth from her.

So... I hopped in the car and took off to chill out, get breakfast and do something productive with my time.

I got a "light textbomb" from her (she has previously agreed in counseling to no texting except for grocery list type items)...

And her I sit doing some typing.


Soo... . I'm frustrated but was able to handle myself without any outburst or expression of frustration.

I left without telling anyone where I was going or what I was doing... although I had been asking to go to breakfast for hours... . (wondering if I did this correctly)

And I plan on going back sometimes this afternoon and proceeding on as if nothing happened... . no JADEing or any of that. 

I'm guessing my best response is no response... . otherwise I'm thinking it will let her know that these types of things really bother me.

Oddly enough my physical relationship (intimacy) has take very few "hits" due to BPD behavior.  I really don't want this to become a regular thing and don't want to have a response that encourages this behavior.

I'll wait to my next marriage counseling and bring it up... . I guess.

Any thoughts on how I responded?  How could I have used SET in this situation?  Anyone else face similar issues?

At least it is a nice day out... !

[BadKitty]

I would have responded in the exact same way. Don't get made or upset. Just leave and come back to try again later. Sometimes I find that this dysregulation lasts for days or even a week or more. I just sit back quietly and give my BPDbf his space.

[formflier]

Yep... normally (if there is a normal)... . it's about half a day before she has moved on and "forgotten about" whatever she was on the warpath about.

I would have responded in the exact same way. Don't get made or upset. Just leave and come back to try again later. Sometimes I find that this dysregulation lasts for days or even a week or more. I just sit back quietly and give my BPDbf his space.

[BadKitty]

I made the mistake of engaging mine last night. Big mistake.  He is on the warpath. I thought enough time had passed. It had been 3 days. But it wasn't enough time. I was told what a horrible person I was and to leave the apartment and leave his life. I guess we live and learn.

[formflier]

Have you ever found a way to "test the waters" to see if it is ok to bring something up?  Or... . heaven forbid to bring up something from when they were dysregulated... . the past?

I made the mistake of engaging mine last night. Big mistake.  He is on the warpath. I thought enough time had passed. It had been 3 days. But it wasn't enough time. I was told what a horrible person I was and to leave the apartment and leave his life. I guess we live and learn.

[BadKitty]

I have not. That is something I need to work on. I really should wait until he is in the "lovey dovey" stage because that seems to be the best time to bring things up. He is more understanding at that time. I made a mistake last night big time, so I know not do do that now. Live and learn I guess.

[tired-of-it-all]

I don't know how to address the sex issue but I know how I would handle the breakfast issue.

I no longer give my wife control over what I am going to do. I no longer say, "do you want to go to breakfast"  I now say, "I am going to breakfast.  Do you want to join me?"  It is a loss if she doesn't come with me.  I have had to grieve the loss of that dream.  Nevertheless I go and enjoy myself and don't let my actions depend on her.  I did this recently on a dance that I wanted to attend.  I knew she would try to sabotage the evening.  I said, "There is a dance on Friday that I am going to attend.  Do you want to go."  She agree but two days before developed a mysterious knee problem.  On the evening of the dance I said, "Are you going to be able to go with me?"  She got her ___ in the car and her knee was magically healed.  My back up plan was to take my youngest daughter.  I didn't tell her that at the time.

I recently had to attend a fund raiser and dance that was associated with my work.  I did not want to risk taking my wife and her possibly sabotaging some of my work relationships.  I took my second daughter who is in her early twenties.  We had a great time.  My wife was not particularly happy but that is really her problem.  Had she been trustworthy in these settings, she could have come with me.  She is not and that is not my fault.

[formflier]

I love it... . I think maybe you or someone else had posted something similar to this a while back.  I kind of remember advice like this now that I have seen it again.

I'll try it this afternoon... . and from now on.

Thanks!

I don't know how to address the sex issue but I know how I would handle the breakfast issue.

I no longer give my wife control over what I am going to do. I no longer say, "do you want to go to breakfast"  I now say, "I am going to breakfast.  Do you want to join me?"  It is a loss if she doesn't come with me.  I have had to grieve the loss of that dream.  Nevertheless I go and enjoy myself and don't let my actions depend on her.  I did this recently on a dance that I wanted to attend.  I knew she would try to sabotage the evening.  I said, "There is a dance on Friday that I am going to attend.  Do you want to go."  She agree but two days before developed a mysterious knee problem.  On the evening of the dance I said, "Are you going to be able to go with me?"  She got her ___ in the car and her knee was magically healed.  My back up plan was to take my youngest daughter.  I didn't tell her that at the time.

I recently had to attend a fund raiser and dance that was associated with my work.  I did not want to risk taking my wife and her possibly sabotaging some of my work relationships.  I took my second daughter who is in her early twenties.  We had a great time.  My wife was not particularly happy but that is really her problem.  Had she been trustworthy in these settings, she could have come with me.  She is not and that is not my fault.

[hergestridge]

I love it too, and I try my best to live like that. I just wish it was... . that easy!

At the moment my wife is highly critical of me for "flying solo", for planning things without her. ""Why don't we do more stuff together? Aren't we a family?"

If I invite her to come a long to something, she will gladly agree to come, but she will do her best to ___ things up, before the event, on her way to the event and AT the event. She does not behave like she was invited, she behaves like she was the main attraction of the evening that everyone was waiting for.

This is fairly normal behaviour for her, but it certainly escalates when she feels she event is not her idea or she's not really welcome. I have confronted her and she just plain denies it (then she admits it when she's slighlyt drunk or dysgegulating).

Consequently, if it's something i REALLY want to do I ask her to stay at home because she knows how to destroy my evening. I can't say "... . well, her problem" and shrug it off when she's made me arrive late and insults me in front of all my friends. It doesn't work like that.

I love it... . I think maybe you or someone else had posted something similar to this a while back.  I kind of remember advice like this now that I have seen it again.

I'll try it this afternoon... . and from now on.

Thanks!

I don't know how to address the sex issue but I know how I would handle the breakfast issue.

I no longer give my wife control over what I am going to do. I no longer say, "do you want to go to breakfast"  I now say, "I am going to breakfast.  :)o you want to join me?"  It is a loss if she doesn't come with me.  I have had to grieve the loss of that dream.  Nevertheless I go and enjoy myself and don't let my actions depend on her.  I did this recently on a dance that I wanted to attend.  I knew she would try to sabotage the evening.  I said, "There is a dance on Friday that I am going to attend.  :)o you want to go."  She agree but two days before developed a mysterious knee problem.  On the evening of the dance I said, "Are you going to be able to go with me?"  She got her ___ in the car and her knee was magically healed.  My back up plan was to take my youngest daughter.  I didn't tell her that at the time.

I recently had to attend a fund raiser and dance that was associated with my work.  I did not want to risk taking my wife and her possibly sabotaging some of my work relationships.  I took my second daughter who is in her early twenties.  We had a great time.  My wife was not particularly happy but that is really her problem.  Had she been trustworthy in these settings, she could have come with me.  She is not and that is not my fault.

[formflier]

Almost used it today when going for a hike.  At last second she decided to hop in with one of our kids.  We ended up having a good time.  But... . in planning for this I was announcing to people what I was doing and that I would like them to come.

We'll see what happens next time.

[Grey Kitty]

Ya know, she is just proving that she will try pretty extreme things to "get what she wants."

I don't know that anything good will come of bringing it up at counseling.

I think the most helpful thing is to be firm on your boundaries (i.e. keeping your computer/gmail passwords to yourself) and not playing that game with her.

She will figure out that you enforce boundaries whether you discuss it in counseling or not.

[formflier]

I remain a bit torn between continuing in ineffective Marriage Counseling so there is a time in space where a referee is present to help us communicate or having the counseling declared a farce... . "get fired" by the marriage counselor and move on.

There is a written sheet that this counselor has us turn in each appointment in which we list unpleasant events that happened and we rank the items that we want to talk about.

I don't think we have ever gotten past the first one. 

I have also said that if she comes up with a "neutral third party"... . that I will put in password and let her snoop and look around.  Purpose of the third party would be to enforce some sort of "rules" of conversation... keep accusations down.  She has never made any attempt to do this.

Sigh... .

Ya know, she is just proving that she will try pretty extreme things to "get what she wants."

I don't know that anything good will come of bringing it up at counseling.

I think the most helpful thing is to be firm on your boundaries (i.e. keeping your computer/gmail passwords to yourself) and not playing that game with her.

She will figure out that you enforce boundaries whether you discuss it in counseling or not.

[Grey Kitty]

I have also said that if she comes up with a "neutral third party"... . that I will put in password and let her snoop and look around.  Purpose of the third party would be to enforce some sort of "rules" of conversation... keep accusations down.  She has never made any attempt to do this

You are lucky she hasn't tried yet. It isn't likely to go well adding a third party anyhow. I'd stop making offers like this. I think you will get far better results by simply asserting that you have aspects of your life that are private, and then shutting up about it.

[formflier]

Interesting.  I have had some in real life give me same advice.

I would like comments on my "position".  I really have nothing to hide.  I'm also a very big process guy.  In life if you have a good process (to make decisions and do other things) usually things go better.  If you do things erratically... . those are the results you should expect.

Since I have nothing to hide and my only complaint about her having access is that she flied off handle and "misreads" emails... . etc etc  My hope is that a neutral third party might blunt that some.  Also it would be a witness.

I don't think she will take me up on offer because it is obvious I am offering a situation with accountability... . she runs from that. 

I want to be able to present myself to her and the world as a guy that is flexible and doesn't draw a hard line... . "i can see many ways to get you what you want and I look forward to trying"... . to contrast her stance on most things of "my way or highway... . it's the ONLY way this will work".

Final shot:  The only time I make offers is when she demands the password... . it is sort of my canned response to "you have refused"... . I try to SET... . with the T part being that we can get someone neutral to help work through this.

I do agree that I'm glad she hasn't tried it.  It would probably be interesting.

Any thoughts on my reasoning... . ?  Please keep challenging me on this so I can learn!

I have also said that if she comes up with a "neutral third party"... . that I will put in password and let her snoop and look around.  Purpose of the third party would be to enforce some sort of "rules" of conversation... keep accusations down.  She has never made any attempt to do this

You are lucky she hasn't tried yet. It isn't likely to go well adding a third party anyhow. I'd stop making offers like this. I think you will get far better results by simply asserting that you have aspects of your life that are private, and then shutting up about it.

[Love Is Not Enough]

I have also said that if she comes up with a "neutral third party"... . that I will put in password and let her snoop and look around.  Purpose of the third party would be to enforce some sort of "rules" of conversation... keep accusations down.  She has never made any attempt to do this

You are lucky she hasn't tried yet. It isn't likely to go well adding a third party anyhow. I'd stop making offers like this. I think you will get far better results by simply asserting that you have aspects of your life that are private, and then shutting up about it.

I agree. I do not think it is a good idea to give her any options about your passwords because it just keeps it active in her mind. As long as you are bargaining she will continue to think there is a chance you will cave. So this gives her the motivation to keep chipping away at you.

Another theme that stands out to me here is being confident. Telling them what you are going to do and inviting them is the way to go. I usually ask too many questions and come across as wishy washy. I need to work on that myself.

Also, be confident when doing SET. For the truth part you need to be direct and offer reassurance. Be sure to tell her that you have nothing to hide and that you are not doing anything wrong. Just last night I had to do that to reassure my gf I was not cheating on her because I had done so in her dream 

Any sort of hesitation and then they will believe they have caught you doing something. When in reality you are hesitating because you are trying to make logic out of crazy making.

Consider withdrawing your third party option or just not bringing it up again. Either way be more confident when reassuring her.

Kudos for not getting angry when "she dropped the bomb" on you. I think I would have lost it.

Good luck 

[formflier]

You guys will obviously pick up that I can be stubborn... . but you may be about to crack me on this access thing.

I was never going to give the password... . just put in password... . let her root around with third party... . etc etc.

But... . I'll think through what I'm going to say.

Some type of SET statement with the truth being that "we've already discussed that"... .

Or do you think I should work on a SET when I say the truth part is I'm doing nothing wrong.

My guess is that she will detect a shift.  As my "offer" has been very similar.  So if I'm going to change I want it to be something that I'm going to hold to.

The "conditions" that were on my offer before... . was something I was pretty sure she wouldn't do... . and that I would have been OK with if it had happened... . but... . I'm sure she could have come up with a way to make it interesting.

Allen

I have also said that if she comes up with a "neutral third party"... . that I will put in password and let her snoop and look around.  Purpose of the third party would be to enforce some sort of "rules" of conversation... keep accusations down.  She has never made any attempt to do this

You are lucky she hasn't tried yet. It isn't likely to go well adding a third party anyhow. I'd stop making offers like this. I think you will get far better results by simply asserting that you have aspects of your life that are private, and then shutting up about it.

I agree. I do not think it is a good idea to give her any options about your passwords because it just keeps it active in her mind. As long as you are bargaining she will continue to think there is a chance you will cave. So this gives her the motivation to keep chipping away at you.

Another theme that stands out to me here is being confident. Telling them what you are going to do and inviting them is the way to go. I usually ask too many questions and come across as wishy washy. I need to work on that myself.

Also, be confident when doing SET. For the truth part you need to be direct and offer reassurance. Be sure to tell her that you have nothing to hide and that you are not doing anything wrong. Just last night I had to do that to reassure my gf I was not cheating on her because I had done so in her dream 

Any sort of hesitation and then they will believe they have caught you doing something. When in reality you are hesitating because you are trying to make logic out of crazy making.

Consider withdrawing your third party option or just not bringing it up again. Either way be more confident when reassuring her.

Kudos for not getting angry when "she dropped the bomb" on you. I think I would have lost it.

Good luck 

[formflier]

Hey... . let this be an encouragement to everyone out there wondering if they should hold to their boundaries.

About a week after the password thing became HUGE... .

She now acts like it is no big deal.

We are intimate again... . pretty much never happened.

Very interesting experience.

Happy Mothers day to everyone out there... . hope you are having a good one.

[hergestridge]

My wife insisted we'd join a swingers club.

She insisted I'd take care of her money for her.

Lots of crazy things. And when she changes her mind she just pretend like nothing's happened and never mentions it again. Bring it up and she'll change the subject.

[Grey Kitty]

I missed most of this topic as things calmed down.

My take is that you have a right to some privacy in your dealings. (Afterall, you wouldn't share what you are writing about your wife, here would you?) However the only way you get that right is by asserting that you have it and standing up for it. That is exactly what boundaries are for.

My other take is that offering a "deal" that you don't expect her to take you up on... . especially one where a good outcome is highly unlikely... . or perhaps I should say that the result of her accepting the offer is worse than you holding firm. (Do you want another party reading your email and reporting what is in there to your wife? At best, it still brings a third party into the middle of your fight with your wife, as there is no way to explain it without there being a conflict.)

Your values are real and consistent--live by them. This disorder makes her demands flop and flap in the breeze... . even if they hit hurricane force!

I do have one closing thought about S.E.T. Its normal usage is where the "Truth" part is being enforced by some outside force or reality, not your boundary. Things like "The insurance company will cancel your policy if you don't pay it."

A "We've already discussed that." or "I'm not having this discussion with you now." may be better served directly... . although validation never hurts.

I want to be able to present myself to her and the world as a guy that is flexible and doesn't draw a hard line... . "i can see many ways to get you what you want and I look forward to trying"... . to contrast her stance on most things of "my way or highway... . it's the ONLY way this will work".

Why is it important to you to be the "flexible guy" instead of the "hard line guy"?

I believe I can be flexible on 99% of the issues in the world... . and 1% of them are absolutely critical to me living within my own values. Those I don't compromise on. I may be flexible on how I implement them.

Boundary enforcement works well if you have a hard firm line, and stick exactly to it. It becomes automatic, understood, and is (eventually) seldom tested. If it is ambiguous, you will be tested constantly.

Being hard-line on everything just because you can is being a dictator.

Being flexible on everything is being a pushover.

Being assertive is not either of those things.