Projecting and conspiring to diagnose

[Bpdexhusband1978]

Hey all,

SO,

A few questions/stories to share:

My BPD ex has had a tendency to spend a great amount of time diagnosing me. Her conspiracies have included that I am a "Sociopath" to Schizophrenic, to bi polar, and most recently NPD. She seems to spend a lot of time in her own therapy discussing these theories about me, and what I "have" ...

I've been in therapy for 6 years. I have no such diagnosis. I suffer from GAD, OCD and used to have issues with agoraphobia.

I've run her theories by my therapist only to have them dismissed instantly.

WHY is she doing this?

Her most present and consistent projection is that of aggression. She will poke and prod, yell in my face, make unrealistic demands with threats of serious consequences. i.e. ":)elete this woman from your facebook or I will contact her myself" ... Or "You better apologize or I will cause a scene (At my Best friend's wedding"

Her threats are never empty. She will follow through. SO in her state of aggression and controlling demands, I often get upset enough to say something awful, like "F off, or shut the F up" ... (That's if I don't just submit and do what she's asking) This usually happens after about 1 hour of me calmly asking her to lower her voice. Nothing calms her once she's in that state.

I have an extreme sensitivity to yelling, having grown up in an abusive home with constant yelling. She is well aware of this.

Once i've done something "awful" She turns the whole thing around on me. And I often spend the next 2-3 days apologizing for my reaction while her behaviour goes un-adressed.


I can swear that once in that state, she is somewhere else. Her eyes glaze over and there is no talking reason with her. Completely irrational and like a game of whacamole. If I appease one current subject she will dig something up from our past.

I can spend 3 hours explaining something (i.e. That I never slept with my friend), and she will nod her head and 3 minutes later, make the same exact accusation. Almost as though I never said anything proving and dispelling it.

This is seriously "crazy-making" behaviour. I literally feel like she's going to make me snap and have a complete nervous breakdown. She has me on loop constantly. I repeat and repeat. Nothing works.

This is a constant. But often times it will escalate to a point of her refusing to let me walk out for some air. Which usually involves her physically attacking me or threatening to destroy my belongings while I'm out.

She recently started DBT... She seems very determined, she's going to yoga 4 times a week, learning meditation etc. She seems motivated.

The problem is, I can't lie. But I don't have much faith. And I'm really traumatized by our past. My shrink mentioned I have a form of PTSD due to the relationship (We were broken up for 9 months in which time I was being treated for said PTSD)

Being around her again is opening all sorts of old wounds. And as much as I love her. I can't seem to let go of the rage, and resentment.

Also the double standards. I'm made to seem like a ruthless pig for having slept with a few women during our downtime. Meanwhile she had 2 relationships, which of course were expedient and left both men in love with her, and actively trying to intimidate me (as I was made out to be an abuser)

To arrive at a point. Is there a solution here? Should I just back away and let her do her DBT? SHould I learn to cope and help?

I can't lie that I have other opportunities to meet new people, and I wonder if maybe I deserve a fresh start. I do love her though.

Also, is lying and manipulating a symptom of BPD. She's a pathological liar. She told me she had protected sex only once or twice with her other partner. Turns out they were extremely active and never once used condoms.

She lies, and when confronted she calls me every name under the sun (Paranoid, sick, abusive, disgusting, delusional) but eventually I corner her and she admits to lying. But it's still my fault she lied "I was afraid of your response, you're aggressive and I don't want to lose you"

I read a lot about BPD and DBT, but I really can't draw the line between her illness, and who she is.

Also having a hard time drawing the line between her illness, my love for her and my own pathology/insecurities. 

Why am I still around?

Sorry if this is a rant hehe I've not had an outlet for any of this in a long time.

As for my therapy. He wants me far away from her. And I've actually stopped going cause I am avoiding scenarios in which I'm told to stay away from her. Bad, I know.

[LettingGo14]

I'm glad you are posting here.  Many of us experienced similar things.  In your initial post, you noted:

She wants me to stand by her and help and be with her... Forgive her and move forward

All of course while making it clear that if I don't ., she will move on with someone else ... And go out "meet people and date "

I have so much anger in me for what I've been through and for the destruction she's done to my reputation and career let alone the death threats I've received from not one but both of the men she dated after me .

Is this worth it ? Should I run for the hills ?

This is a fundamental question only you can answer.   Where do you want to start from -- a place of "I can wait and see" or a place of "I've tried all I can do?"

My BPD ex has had a tendency to spend a great amount of time diagnosing me.

Ditto for me.  I even came to believe some of it but worked through that with my own T, like you.   

We don't need to internalize what is said to us, even though it's difficult to hear.

WHY is she doing this?

Because it prompts a reaction.  Because it makes it about you. 

I often get upset enough to say something awful, like "F off, or shut the F up" ... (That's if I don't just submit and do what she's asking) This usually happens after about 1 hour of me calmly asking her to lower her voice. Nothing calms her once she's in that state.

The key, I think, is for us to learn to self-soothe and not internalize.  This is extremely difficult in the heat of the moment.   But, it's a worthy goal.

This is seriously "crazy-making" behaviour. I literally feel like she's going to make me snap and have a complete nervous breakdown. She has me on loop constantly. I repeat and repeat. Nothing works.

We are on a "loop" (and I was in one too, so don't feel alone) because we allow ourselves to get on a loop.   We become fused emotionally.  Until we differentiate ourselves, and learn to let go, it's impossible to break the cycle. 

If you do plan on staying there are good tools here like Ending the Cycle of Conflict or Before you can make things better, you have to stop making things worse - Staff Article

The problem is, I can't lie. But I don't have much faith. And I'm really traumatized by our past. My shrink mentioned I have a form of PTSD due to the relationship (We were broken up for 9 months in which time I was being treated for said PTSD)

Being around her again is opening all sorts of old wounds. And as much as I love her. I can't seem to let go of the rage, and resentment.

Also the double standards. I'm made to seem like a ruthless pig for having slept with a few women during our downtime. Meanwhile she had 2 relationships, which of course were expedient and left both men in love with her, and actively trying to intimidate me (as I was made out to be an abuser)

To arrive at a point. Is there a solution here? Should I just back away and let her do her DBT? SHould I learn to cope and help?

Why am I still around?

As for my therapy. He wants me far away from her. And I've actually stopped going cause I am avoiding scenarios in which I'm told to stay away from her. Bad, I know.

Ultimately, the choice is yours.  There are success stories Workshop - SUCCESS STORIES: How I gained control of my life  and there are hard decisions to detach.

What do you want to do?   

[Bpdexhusband1978]

For some reason I am completely unable to make a decision on detachment vs aiming toward a success story.

Which regret is greater?

Losing her. Or having to deal with a serious blowout again. She does have a history of violence. And I don't want to end up with a DV charge, or dead!

The idea of having children with her (which she wants) is terrifying to me.

It seems like a lot of work, for something that should in theory be soothing and rewarding: Love.

I worry I'm just going to have to alter my behaviour and be on constant alert to not set her off... Is that really a way to live?

How much can I expect DBT to make her into a rational and easy person to live with?

I don't know.! Arg

[Bpdexhusband1978]

To boot, I have a host of my own issues to deal with. Adding this to the mix is not exactly enticing

[LettingGo14]

For some reason I am completely unable to make a decision on detachment vs aiming toward a success story.

Which regret is greater?

Losing her. Or having to deal with a serious blowout again. She does have a history of violence. And I don't want to end up with a DV charge, or dead!

The idea of having children with her (which she wants) is terrifying to me.

It seems like a lot of work, for something that should in theory be soothing and rewarding: Love.

I worry I'm just going to have to alter my behaviour and be on constant alert to not set her off... Is that really a way to live?

How much can I expect DBT to make her into a rational and easy person to live with?

I don't know.! Arg

We all have our issues -- that's just being human.  Some of the strongest advice I have gotten is to return focus to myself.   To learn to feel emotions.  To define my boundaries and wants.  Only then can we respond to our options.  If we cede responsibility to others to "fix" themselves or us or the relationships, we miss a huge opportunity for self-realization.

Does that make sense?

[Bpdexhusband1978]

Actually, yes.

It does make a lot of sense. And your post is greatly appreciated as it is super helpful. I feel the questions you ask (though I don't feel it's your intention to suggest so) are pushing me away from her more than toward.

I'm a very open person, kind of guy to just blurt out what he's thinking. And the idea of having to watch my words, and monitor my behaviour because things can so easily be misconstrued by someone suffering from BPD. Sounds like a character suicide.

The reality of the situation, is I've recently run out of money for therapy. But I will say, that my therapist would NOT be impressed that I am even talking to her, let alone considering a fresh start. Last time I went back to her, he urged me to distance myself. Citing that her issues are extremely dangerous and "risky business" . It's no joke. This person has been extremely violent and inconsolable. I have high levels of skepticism, that DBT can subside something so wild. I am not kidding when I say she seems possessed when she's angry. I've never witnessed anything like that, her eyes become dilated, he face beet red, veins popping out. There is no stopping her, and the impulse is to be violent or destructive.

My therapist and I spent almost 9 months of intense psychotherapy, working on getting me away from her, the harassment, the slander, the threats, the abuse and figuring out why I felt I should stay in that environment. He assured me that if I cut contact she would find a new "victim" and sure enough within days of me cutting contact she was with someone.  Las session I had with him he said " I really hope you don't go back to her, it would be the worst thing you could do for your life"

He would be very puzzled by the choice to re-engage. And I'm almost scared to go back and face him with the news.

A detail to note. She has sent some really slanderous emails to my colleagues, friends and family, saying unimaginable things about me.

Everyone in my circle, knows of her issues and actions and see me as completely nuts for being involved. NOT one person I know endorses this decision. It's embarrassing and that's a factor. I don't know how to rationalize it to myself, let alone the support system I have built for myself.

The two men she has dated have gone around town saying they would "beat me" if they ever saw me. She got them super amped up against me. Naturally, as a "damsel in distress" And things keep surfacing that enrage me. People with massive roles in my career have deleted me from linked in, and FB based on what they've heard about me. It's a big mess, and I have SO much hatred toward her for so many things. Yet... I can't let go?

I read a post on the link you sent me. The guy calls it an addiction he had to get over. Is that all this is?

Sometimes I wonder why she even wants me or how she can claim to love me having done the things she has done.

Sometimes I wonder how I can love her.

Sometimes I wonder if we have a sexual addiction to each other. We have experienced nothing by sex fails apart from each other 

Contrary to what I've been reading here about BPD partners, she's I'd say,,hmmm great about 50% of the time. Seems a lot of people call it 10% good 90% monster.

Thing I can relate to though is never knowing what might set her off. I can't enjoy dinner in a restaurant with her, or anything public. I feel anything I say might set her off and then, well... The scene, the public humiliation. Having a drink slapped out of my hand, being walked out on and yelled at. Once even being punched in the face and having my phone smashed.

It's a real scary thing to know is possible.

Whenever we go out with friends (her friends namely) I get accused of talking about myself too much and showing off my accomplishments and being narcissistic. It's come to a point where I'm scared to even speak to her friends at all. I feel her judging. Then there's the flirting accusations !

Can you feel my exhaustion? haha

I don't know what I'm doing. Honestly.

I can sell myself into staying. Or going. So easily.

The sales pitch for staying, is that she's in DBT... and aware her behaviour is completely unstable. I must admit however, that I don't detect much remorse. And she still has a habit of reminding me of what my role was in "escalating" or "triggering"

But she is doing the work and seems serious about it.

I do need to get in touch with myself and I realize what you say is true. Maybe I need to get blasted by therapist. haha

I know that stringing her along is not only unfair. It's quite literally dangerous. So I feel I should make a move soon.

[LettingGo14]

I don't know what I'm doing. Honestly.

I can sell myself into staying. Or going. So easily.

The sales pitch for staying, is that she's in DBT... and aware her behaviour is completely unstable. I must admit however, that I don't detect much remorse. And she still has a habit of reminding me of what my role was in "escalating" or "triggering"

But she is doing the work and seems serious about it.

I do need to get in touch with myself and I realize what you say is true. Maybe I need to get blasted by therapist. haha

I know that stringing her along is not only unfair. It's quite literally dangerous. So I feel I should make a move soon.

Only you can decide what to do.   It might make sense to post on the Undecided Board -- Undecided Board: Staying or Leaving to get some additional insights.

I can only tell you from experience that, no matter what you pursue, we start with ourselves and define our worth, values, boundaries, and capabilities.  Our partners are human beings, and they suffer too, perhaps in ways we can't even conceptualize.   

[Bpdexhusband1978]

Your words are extremely helpful

Thank you !

[rollercoaster24]

Hi BPDexhusband1978

I'm so sorry to hear the troubles you have had with your ex, she sounds dangerous to be around, so as hard as it is, (and all of us here on the leaving/unsure boards know this too well) being away from her seems the safest and best for you.

I know we all fall prey to thinking that our own individual relationships with our BP partners just might hold more hope than lots of others here, but when it comes down to it, our chances of making it work with them are all the same.

We always blame ourselves too, and take on way more guilt for things not working out than we ever should.

Something to consider

Any relationship needs two partners willing to do the work necessary on themselves for their relationship to survive.

There are also factors that need to be in place as well, honesty, commitment, equality, trust, faith, hope and shared interests and values, (where most important).

I'm sure you know all this already, but because of the significant brainwashing/manipulating BP's do, you are presently still in great doubt, don't worry, at some present point with NC, that will change, the fog will lift from your mind, and you will feel better and see clearer with each and every day.

If only one partner can own up to their own self inventory and WANT to change, is there any point in continuing the relationship?

When you read about what violent/aggressive partners have to be willing to do to show change, the first one is making an honest inventory of the hurt they have inflicted, and stopping that behaviour, or at least reminding themselves of the situations that make it harder to change and avoiding them for a time.

The next step is for them to put strategies in place so they do not 'reoffend' , like learning to take 'time out' from heated discussions, or avoiding those type of situations, or even better, admitting to their feelings of insecurity/jealousy/doubts without making it an attack on their partner.

Another step, is that they must not expect their partner to 'get over the past' in five minutes, and become angry if their partner shows hurt or 'flashbacks' to aggressive/violent things they have done.

If you look up the steps that show an aggressive or violent partner is willing to change, you will see all the above written there, clearer and more in depth than what I have noted.

But there you will also find some more clarity into your ex and your situation, I delved into both for some time, all the lessons eventually sunk in for me, and I reached a point of no going back to the relationship.

Yes I am heartbroken, and will be forever, yes I have moments of doubt, wonder if I will ever love again quite like that, (now at 46 and female, it seems less likely), but these are things I know about my partner.

He was dangerous, violent, aggressive, selfish, immature, unreliable, inconsistent, lazy, accusatory, jealous, paranoid, stole, damaged property constantly, had no conscience, likely cheated, (I found it hard to prove it) drank secretly, (he didn't know I finally found out by accident) and likely had a substance problem too, nearly killed me on several occasions, threatened to kill me, threatened to 'ruin me' often, threatened the lives of those close to me, (and then scoffed often that he wasn't serious), was a chauvinist, sexist, arrogant, narcissistic, had a huge sense of entitlement, boring, old fashioned, party pooper, hypocritical, and was unemployed for 6 years, oh and never brought any phone credit in all that time either.

He also threatened to kill his elderly Father and Mother, and even though he has bludged off them off and on for 13 years, (there's that sense of entitlement again, just like with me), he made life hell for them until finally even his Mother gave up and asked him to leave their home last year.

So, that was my ex 85% of the time, and the rest?

Well, he could be loving, kind, romantic, sweet, helpful, clever, and a great lover at times, but it never seemed like he could do any of those things unless he was getting something out of it himself. In other words, he couldn't give to people without any expectations of receiving in return, and feel really good about it.

I always felt like he was fake.

And he was.

More fool me, for believing I was 'that special someone unlike all others' that he often told me I was.

I wasn't, period.

That was pretty much 90% of the time

[Bpdexhusband1978]

Hey, I really appreciate what you've written here and I'd like to address it point by point. As I play devil's advocate, understand that I'm with you on all points. I just need some affirmation

Hi BPDexhusband1978

I'm so sorry to hear the troubles you have had with your ex, she sounds dangerous to be around, so as hard as it is, (and all of us here on the leaving/unsure boards know this too well) being away from her seems the safest and best for you.

I know we all fall prey to thinking that our own individual relationships with our BP partners just might hold more hope than lots of others here, but when it comes down to it, our chances of making it work with them are all the same.

We always blame ourselves too, and take on way more guilt for things not working out than we ever should.

Something to consider

Yes, she's absolutely dangerous, has proven to be, and I don't believe her to be in the clear just yet. My belief that therapy can take her to a stable place is 50/50. I myself used to suffer from debilitating panic disorder that left me locked in my apartment for over a year. CBT really helped me overcomes some MAJOR issues in a way that has changed my life dramatically. Do I believe in the power of therapy? Yes. BUT... Violence, seems a little more complex than anxiety to me. Though the more I read about it, the more it seems related. Automatic thoughts etc. Maybe there's hope there, I don't know. It's part of what I came on here hoping to understand and learn more about.

I had a tremendous amount of guilt for leaving her, but her recent admitting to having severe issues and getting help, and real help for them has alleviated a lot of the guilt. I still find myself having to explain to her that I had good reason to leave her, as she still says things like "You walked out on me, I never left you! I would never have". To me those comments indicate a lack of remorse, or understanding of the magnitude of her actions.

Any relationship needs two partners willing to do the work necessary on themselves for their relationship to survive.

There are also factors that need to be in place as well, honesty, commitment, equality, trust, faith, hope and shared interests and values, (where most important).

Hmm this may be the biggest eye opener in your argument. Honesty? Not sure I can find that. She has admitted to having serious issues with lying and wanting to work on that. She says it's fear based. That I will judge her and therefore leave her. So she lies. But some of her lies have clear intent to deceive, not just evade judgement. Telling me she used protection with other partners for instance is a horrible lie, because it allowed me to put myself at risk of catching an STD. It can be argued she was embarrassed to admit it, but it's still a pretty disturbing lie.

Trust is shattered. and shared interests and values. Not sure we have that either.

I'm sure you know all this already, but because of the significant brainwashing/manipulating BP's do, you are presently still in great doubt, don't worry, at some present point with NC, that will change, the fog will lift from your mind, and you will feel better and see clearer with each and every day.

If only one partner can own up to their own self inventory and WANT to change, is there any point in continuing the relationship?

When you read about what violent/aggressive partners have to be willing to do to show change, the first one is making an honest inventory of the hurt they have inflicted, and stopping that behaviour, or at least reminding themselves of the situations that make it harder to change and avoiding them for a time.

Ok, inventory: Here's where you got me good. She has hardly recounted ONE event. She always says "I know my reactions are unacceptable and I need to learn to walk away from it before it escalates. " To me this the understatement of a lifetime. I would definitely feel better about it if she would list all the F'd up nutty things she did, apologize for them specifically pointing out how nuts it was. to me that would show me that she truly understands how severe her behaviour was. She likes to mention breaking things as her main issue. She seems to leave out the violence. To me, there is some sort of empathy lacking here, or perhaps its just shame. But if I were to remain cynical, I'd say her motives are to better her reactions so SHE can get more out of life. Not so she can be a better partner, or redeem herself. It seems based on her words and actions, that her just being in DBT is redemption enough, and now it's my turn to step up and help her, as I get help for myself.

Nonetheless, she is getting the help and seems really committed to it. But like I said in a previous post. She has made it clear that if I'm not by her side someone else will be. Which reinforces my theory that she's only in this DBT to better her life. It reinforces my theory that remorse is lacking.

Another step, is that they must not expect their partner to 'get over the past' in five minutes, and become angry if their partner shows hurt or 'flashbacks' to aggressive/violent things they have done.

   

This is the biggest red flag! She has absolutely ZERO tolerance for me "living in the past" . I told her time and time again that trust needs to be rebuilt and that reading a few books and a couple weeks of DBT won't be the magic cure. She has no respect that her actions have literally caused me to have PTSD. I'm expected to come running back with blind faith.

I've told her I find it completely reckless of her. If I were a drunk, and wanting my battered ex back. I'd not offer her hope or try to rope her back in after a week of sobriety and expect her to trust it. I'd expect her to trust me after a couple years of sobriety.

Yes I am heartbroken, and will be forever, yes I have moments of doubt, wonder if I will ever love again quite like that, (now at 46 and female, it seems less likely),

I don't agree. Just love yourself and the rest will fall into place and no it's never too late. And I think we often mix in so many emotions including hate, fear, anxiety etc with toxic love that we see that as part of the intensity of the love itself when really it has nothing to do with love. Love will come around and it will be peaceful. It may not be the fireworks you had with your BPD, but it will be right, and the love itself will be great. I have faith in that.

but these are things I know about my partner.

He was dangerous, violent, aggressive, selfish, immature, unreliable, inconsistent, lazy, accusatory, jealous, paranoid, stole, damaged property constantly, had no conscience, likely cheated, (I found it hard to prove it) drank secretly, (he didn't know I finally found out by accident) and likely had a substance problem too, nearly killed me on several occasions, threatened to kill me, threatened to 'ruin me' often, threatened the lives of those close to me, (and then scoffed often that he wasn't serious), was a chauvinist, sexist, arrogant, narcissistic, had a huge sense of entitlement, boring, old fashioned, party pooper, hypocritical, and was unemployed for 6 years, oh and never brought any phone credit in all that time either.

He also threatened to kill his elderly Father and Mother, and even though he has bludged off them off and on for 13 years, (there's that sense of entitlement again, just like with me), he made life hell for them until finally even his Mother gave up and asked him to leave their home last year.

Well here's where my ex stands out a little.

She's highly functional. Has a great career, is a home owner, she's clean, organized, super thoughtful, cooks amazingly, has a great sense of humour, doesn't do drugs or drink, she's active, has a decent social life, is not suicidal, has not cheated (far as I know, though I wouldn't be surprised if she did), is supportive of my life, career and goals, is more times than not complimenting me and attesting her love.

it's just those instances in which she perceives a threat, or abandonment that it all goes out the window. It's when she's had a bad day that I get ripped into. It's when she expects me to deal with her emotions a certain way and I fail to, that the fangs come out.

Like you, it often feels like there's a scoreboard on her good deeds. Like she's expecting some sort of balance. But it's not super intense. Some of her actions seem sincere. She cannot step foot in a store for instance (even on her lunch breaks at work) without buying me something... ( a cookie, something she finds cute, whatever)... There is a reason I married her in there somewhere haha

More fool me, for believing I was 'that special someone unlike all others' that he often told me I was.

I wasn't, period.

Hmm I get that "you're the only man I ever truly loved." Maybe I'm naive, but if I look at her history (which I know all too well). She has NEVER gone back toward a past lover. NEVER. But she is clearly hung up on me.

That being said, maybe none of her past lovers kept that door open as I have.

I've had the chance to speak to some of these people. Though they all complain about her being a ragey person or a control freak, none of the described her as violent. Destructive yes, and one man called the cops on her for trashing his motorcycle, the other because the day she was moving out, things got physical. But the general consensus was that my stories about her were WAY over the top.

Her theory on that is that because she never felt true love for those people, she never truly feared being abandoned by them. Hence the quote I once read "the worst thing a pwBPD can do to you is love you"

This person has brought out the nastiest side of my personality. Something I have not witnessed in ANY other relationship. Harsh words, complete blow outs, I myself even punching holes into a wall on two occasions. Completely outside myself. My ex gf from before her couldn't even imagine me raising my voice. When I told her those stories, she didn't believe them. I don't want to blame anyone but myself for the way I respond to my emotions. But one option is to remove the toxin. I can obviously look inward and sort out my issues, find out why I endured so much, why I reacted the way I did etc. But will it change that this person has an incredible mastery of making me feel crazy?

So that's my story...  

[cobaltblue]

I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties. I can relate. I just spent three years researching, talking with professionals and coming to terms with the acceptance of my wife's undiagnosed illness and behavioral patterns.

Like you, I agonized over the decision of whether to lead a separate life or continue to "cope".

I can share with you that ultimately what caused me to file for divorce this year was 2-3 years of self-journaling, charting behavior and taking audio recordings. Recording audio is legal in some states, provided you are in your own home and at least you know the recording is taking place. It is a misdemeanor in other states, so if considering doing this, know your facts and the law first.

What the audio helped me realize is HOW this other person was treating me. It's incredibly difficult at the time they are projecting or splitting or manipulating or lying, to determine what's going on and why - all you know is that you're left feeling really bad, confused, depressed etc.

Re-listening to the audio the next day, over time, allowed me to develop the skills of being able to identify projection, splitting, times when I did a poor job of shutting down and endless drama conversation.

But more importantly, you have the opportunity to be a third party observer and can listen to how you are being abused, manipulated, lied to, demeaned, etc.

This was really the catalyst for me because without it I had nothing to analyze. She was very good at what she did. Until I caught onto it, started journaling how it made me feel about myself; and that made it much easier for me to come to the conclusion that I'm faced with a choice: I can either continue to "cope" and tolerate this and likely die early from stress-related disorders; or I can admit to myself that she is not going to change, that I am not going to change her, that this is a ___ty situation that is incredibly damaging to me and toxic mentally and physically; and I need to effect change by getting out.

I'm five months into filing. It is a continuation of the roller coaster - at times she is even trying to remove the wheels from my car on the roller coaster, but at least I know I will be able to get off soon and I am actively reducing the percentage of time that I am exposed to said roller coaster.

Initially I asked everyone about what I should do and they (understandably) told me that this was a decision only I could make. You must become aware and you must want positive change more than you want to continue to remain ill, in therapy, on medication and dealing with the drama.

For me what made that difference was the journaling and self-analysis of the digital audio.

Hope this helps.

[cobaltblue]

You wrote:

"I still find myself having to explain to her that I had good reason to leave her, as she still says things like "You walked out on me, I never left you! I would never have". To me those comments indicate a lack of remorse, or understanding of the magnitude of her actions."

I'm in the middle of a divorce and mine says that too. Couple of things you need to realize:

1. She has become an expert - far, far, far better than you or I - at saying things and behaving in such a way so as to manipulate the desired outcome she wants or the desired reaction from you, whether it is hurting you, causing you emotional pain, getting you to question yourself, causing you to wonder if you are ill yourself, creating self-doubt. Accept that she is better at this than you are and watch for it.

2. Nothing she says, nothing she does is ever done without a purpose in mind.

"I would have never left you" - my soon to be ex said that last week also.

This is done for two purposes: A) To create guilt in you - perhaps on what you are giving up, B) to Charm you (look up charming) back into changing your mind about ending the relationship.

When she tries something and it doesn't produce the desired effect, she will try a new approach. If nothing works, she will berate you and become angry.

Take a step back and start journaling and start looking at what's going on and how it makes you feel.

[cobaltblue]

You wrote:

"The idea of having children with her (which she wants) is terrifying to me."

While I cannot speak for your significant other or your situation, I can share that I DID have children with mine and it now is terrifying because we are divorcing and I see the effects of her on the kids. Mine wanted to have kids (I believe) because they will never abandon her, will love her unconditionally and she can control them to give her a sense of control in her otherwise chaotic life. Yours may have different reasons but thought I'd share.

"It seems like a lot of work, for something that should in theory be soothing and rewarding: Love."

I used to hope that it would be a normal, loving relationship. I've learned over the years that it is simply not possible - she is not capable of loving and having an adult, grown up relationship. Her emotional growth was stunted in childhood, so me expecting her to emotionally be a grown up is completely unrealistic of me. I either needed to accept it or change the situation. But key is that you are not going to change her. The way she is is deeply wired in her psyche. DBT "may" help, but only works if the person admits they have a problem - mine blames me for all problems, so DBT would likely not work. However if you're trying things - and it sounds like you are, then you going to a DBT therapist by yourself and then inviting her to join you after a few weeks might work better than issuing an ultimatum. But is sounds like you've run out of therapy money.

"I worry I'm just going to have to alter my behaviour and be on constant alert to not set her off... Is that really a way to live?"

You are. I did for years. That is the cause of chronic PTSD and depression. No, it is not a way to live. It's a way to die.

"How much can I expect DBT to make her into a rational and easy person to live with?"

No way to predict this until/unless you try it.

And like me, you can ask everyone under the sun whether you should stay or go. Most people will politely not get involved. Others will tell you how ludicrous it is that you're asking someone else to make that decision for you. Thank them because it is. This is only a decision that you can make, nobody else; and once you make that decision, make sure you know about what Charming is and have a plan for extraction. The more aware you become, the more you will accept what is reality. The more you accept, the easier it will be to take action.

[Bpdexhusband1978]

Not sure what the laws are up here in Canada, but yes, I have recorded her. And the objective was to play it back to her, because she yells and goes into psycho overdrive without knowing. Later to distort the order in which things happened. And denying she ever raised her voice...

Long and short of it. I stopped doing that after 2 iphones were smashed to smithereens by her.

Luckily a lot of our arguments happen over text and I can later re read and see how she twists and manipulates.

Congrats on your divorce, sounds like you're on your way to freedom

I will say, beware of the cycle. Sometimes we end up with the exact same type all over again.

[Bpdexhusband1978]

I realize that ultimately the decision remains mine, and I will go against anything that doesn't feel right.

She is in DBT by her own volition. She's pretty serious about it, and knows she's not "normal"

She does want to hand me a role in her reactions, but not much of one anymore it seems.

I'd like to wait by the sidelines and see if it works but the reality is this. She will only be put to the test when I'm fully invested again. i.e. living with her.

In other words, when it's too late

[cobaltblue]

You wrote:

"Not sure what the laws are up here in Canada, but yes, I have recorded her. And the objective was to play it back to her, because she yells and goes into psycho overdrive without knowing. Later to distort the order in which things happened. And denying she ever raised her voice."

Whatever works for you. In my opinion, it's not your job to show the other person that their behavior is abnormal. You're doing what I used to do, which is applying logic and rationale. You cannot use logic on a person who is illogical, impulsive and irrational. Think of her like a 16 year old in a 40 year old body. You play audio back to a 16 year old and they don't give a ___ about whether they behaved wrong or not. They're more pissed that you recorded them, ergo your two smashed iPhones.

It's not up to you to show the person that there is something wrong with them. That's mortifying to them. That's the job of a DBT therapist to eke out.

In my opinion the value of audio recording is in self-awareness if you plan on staying and in evidence if you plan on leaving.

[Bpdexhusband1978]

Duly noted

I have wasted a lot of breath on trying to point things out.

Then she'll come back from therapy and say "I tend to project a lot cause of A, B and C"

And I want to smash my own head into a wall, cause I''ve been saying ABC for 2 years! and NOW she gets it?

Your point is proven basically. I think she's in good hands, and her therapist wants to meet with me to.

Apparently "don't play shrink" is a huge rule.

It would be safe to say one of my unhealthy obsessions in life is to try and point out the irrational to irrational people.

Kinda like Larry David in Curb,

My dad has a great expression. It's French, but I'll translate.

"If you say a crazy person riding around town on a broom stick, just say ... "nice horse" :

it's kinda brilliant actually and I wish I could learn to live that way.

Thanks for your wisdom.

BTW she's 31. I'm 34.

[cobaltblue]

Yep. By the way, I've learned a great way to get out of the "loop" you speak of.

Last week she closed the door like she does when she wants to get me alone to berate me and paint me black. She started talking and in the middle of her sentence I said, "You know what? It's way to early in the morning for you to ambush me. I'm just not going to engage with you. Sorry." Then I walked out.

Five minutes later she located me and asked me what the word ambush meant.   hahaha. Sigh.

I was proud of myself. I used to sit there for an hour while she looped about the same thing and berated me. I've learned how to shut it down.