Selfless life vs. Life for pleasure/self-interest

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I came from a family who preached selflessness and helping others as the ultimate life (except Dad who abandoned us). I married pwBPD who came from a family where who preached a life of pleasure or self-interest regardless of the consequence, even to your own kids, as the ultimate life.

Both of these extremes have hurt me immensely.  I will spend the rest of my life restoring and repairing the damage done.

I find myself at a crossroads between these extremes and find it very lonely, ungrounded. I think the crossroads is just wanting to be me in every moment… whether that is seeking pleasure (which might result in hurting someone else), helping others, or something in between. This internal battle is causing very awkward situations since I find myself unstable. Although I know part of this me being afraid and maybe judgmental, I don’t feel like I am able to connect long-term with anyone and am missing this. I can connect with family, friends in tiny blips but then feels like the connection gets washed out in a different situation.

Can you relate in anyway? If so, I would appreciate any advice or insight.

[dontknow2]

I came from a family who preached selflessness and helping others as the ultimate life (except Dad who abandoned us). I married pwBPD who came from a family where who preached a life of pleasure or self-interest regardless of the consequence, even to your own kids, as the ultimate life.

Both of these extremes have hurt me immensely.  I will spend the rest of my life restoring and repairing the damage done.

I find myself at a crossroads between these extremes and find it very lonely, ungrounded. I think the crossroads is just wanting to be me in every moment… whether that is seeking pleasure (which might result in hurting someone else), helping others, or something in between. This internal battle is causing very awkward situations since I find myself unstable. Although I know part of this me being afraid and maybe judgmental, I don’t feel like I am able to connect long-term with anyone and am missing this. I can connect with family, friends in tiny blips but then feels like the connection gets washed out in a different situation.

Can you relate in anyway? If so, I would appreciate any advice or insight.

[Cumulus]

What is that something in between? How can our pleasure hurt someone else? I don't know, don't know. It just seems wrong to suffer for everyone else. We all have our own paths of weakness and strength, good and bad, and sorrow and joy. I guess it's learning to walk in and own our own path only. I hear you 

[dontknow2]

Hi Cumulus,

How can our pleasure hurt someone else?

Before I addressed my sex addiction with my ex (my kid's Dad), I would sometimes have sex in a room within ear shot of my kids when I knew it bothered them.

What is that something in between?

To stick with the sex example, I'd like to turn what was a hedonistic addiction into an expression of love and chance to intimately bond with a husband.

I guess it's learning to walk in and own our own path only. I hear you

Yes exactly. Sounds simple spoken here. Thank you Cumulus. 

[seeking balance]

I find myself at a crossroads between these extremes and find it very lonely, ungrounded.

Balance is a practice, not an event... . that is what I am learning anyways.  It doesn't always feel good or bad, but boundaries around my values (clear ones based on me, the person I am) help me in staying balanced more often than not.

What are your values and what boundaries or even discipline would you need to live in your core values?

Good topic.

[dontknow2]

Hello seeking balance,

Balance is a practice, not an event... .

Thank you for recognizing the need for balance and calling balance a "practice". This reminds me of learning to ride a bike. We might start with training wheels, then try, try again and fall many times. It takes some years and others a few tries. Even then, some wear protective gear forever in case of bumps. This makes it feel like it is just a part of the process.

What are your values and what boundaries or even discipline would you need to live in your core values?

Thanks for this question! It felt more natural today than past attempts at my core 'values'. Plus, "discipline" resonates with me.

Integrity (wholeness)

    •   Repairing and restoring myself. (i.e. therapy, speaking up for past harm done, this board, etc.)

    •   Rebuilding so future is less harming. (i.e. retraining thoughts like ‘what’s wrong with me’)

Freedom/Love (be myself)

    •   Face the Truth about me.

    •   Listen and trust my feelings.

    •   Then, use intellect/logic to decide on action and act!

    •   Forgive.

Respect (consideration to others)

    •   Think how others would feel.

    •   Take time to figure out if I can minimize damage to others without compromising me or find win/win. If so, change approach.

SB   and  

[seeking balance]

Good stuff donknow2 - you might find this workshop helpful as you dig into this topic.

Boundaries - Living Our Values

https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

This has a wealth of information in it.  LKM what you think.

Cheers,

SB

[Cumulus]

Hi don't know. You still have me thinking about how our pleasure can hurt someone else. I read your example about how it bothered your children when you would have sex in the next room, yet you described that sex as hedonistic addiction. That doesn't sound like you are describing something pleasurable. I think what I am trying to get to is what was also mentioned by you and that is the balance. I'm searching for that spot where I am not afraid to enjoy the pleasures in my own life rather than somehow trying to give them over to make someone else feel better. The constant joy/ happiness drain   yeah, I know, there's a name for that!

Hope you don't mind if I borrow some of your goals.  All the best.

[clljhns]

Hi dontknow2,

I really like this topic. I have struggled with doing things for my own pleasure and the guilt that arises from this because I feel that I should be doing something for someone else. I feel selfish when I do anything for myself. When I was married and a child at home, my focus was on them. I took care of the home, bought the groceries, cooked the meals, gardened and canned the harvest, planned for purchases that would benefit the family. I never thought about doing anything just for me.

Now, I am single and my child is an adult. It was liberating and a little scary at first. I remember the first time I went to the grocers and stood looking at all the choices. It took me two hours to shop that day as I looked carefully at all of the items available and realized I could choose what I liked. I never would buy items that I liked, if I knew my family wouldn't eat it. What a liberating moment! I had no one else to consider in that moment but me. I did feel a little pang of guilt as I thought about my daughter and wondered if she had everything she needed. I stopped and thought about this, and realized that she had what she needed, she was okay.

I decided to start to test myself and took trips to different venues to see my reaction. It was incredible! I would spend hours looking at things, as if it was the first time I had seen them. In a way, it was. I had tunnel vision for so many years. My tunnel vision was all about serving others and forgetting about my own needs.

I wish I could remember who said this, but it is so true, "If you don't take care of yourself, you have nothing left to give others." I used to think this was a self-serving statement. Slowly, I am learning that if I feel good about myself, and have met my needs on an emotional, intellectual, and spiritual level, I have so much more to offer others. When I was burdened with thoughts of others needs' to the exclusion of my own, I really didn't have anything to offer because I was empty inside. As I learn to nurture myself, I have noticed that I feel more free inside.

I don't know if this helps with your question, but I do understand the conundrum between being selfless and being selfish. There is a balance between the two. I liked your analogy of learning to ride a bike. I would like to add another analogy. Imagine that you have been involved in an assault (what a lot of us feel after being raised by a BPD)  that leaves you unable to function. You must learn to walk, talk, feel, and experience the world all over again. It takes time to relearn these things, and now we must not only learn to do them again, but we must learn to do them in a healthy way. A way that honors and respects us.

I wish you much peace on your healing journey 

[dontknow2]

SB – The values workshop does have a wealth of information and will revisit periodically. Since it is taking me so long to learn and restore myself, any efforts to identify my core values have fallen flat in the past… As I continue my process, I find things like honesty, goodness, etc. are behaviors used as needed towards my values of Integrity and Love/Freedom. As I write this, I realize respect is a secondary behavior as well. Thank you.

Cumulus – You bring up an important distinction: healthy vs unhealthy pleasure. It is difficult for me to come up with an example of healthy pleasure for myself being harmful towards someone else (from a higher view). Even in my example provided above (sex with my kids in earshot): if I was having sex based on love and trust, I imagine the scenario would be different. Thank you for that! Best to you too, Cumulus.

Clljhns – I love your example of being in the grocery store and choosing between food your family would like vs what you would like to eat. I face that situation too and struggle with it. Part of my problem is it takes so much energy to push for my needs.

I do wonder if your family came over for dinner, would you still serve what you like to eat. I wish you peace as well. Thank you.

[clljhns]

dontknow2,

I had to really think about your question. Probably not. I would most likely serve what I know they like. Made me stop and think though. Is this really giving up  taking of self for others again? I don't thinks so. When they leave, I still have the foods I like in the cupboards.

[quotePart of my problem is it takes so much energy to push for my needs.][/quote]
I was curious about this statement. I also understand it. I can remember how my every waking moment was about my family. Never any thought of myself. I even felt guilty if I thought about doing something for myself. One of the thing I did do for myself at times was to listen to my music on full blast in the house when everyone was gone. I would also drive to the park and sit by the pond or walk the trails. I didn't have a young child at this time, so I could steal a little time for me. I don't know if your children are still young, but if they are, maybe you could suggest that husband take kids for a couple of hours so you can some "me" time. It is vitally important to nurture yourself.

Keep posting. I am interested to know how you are doing.

Peace and blessings. 

[clljhns]

dontknow2,

I had to really think about your question. Probably not. I would most likely serve what I know they like. Made me stop and think though. Is this really giving up  taking of self for others again? I don't thinks so. When they leave, I still have the foods I like in the cupboards.

Part of my problem is it takes so much energy to push for my needs.

I was curious about this statement. I also understand it. I can remember how my every waking moment was about my family. Never any thought of myself. I even felt guilty if I thought about doing something for myself. One of the thing I did do for myself at times was to listen to my music on full blast in the house when everyone was gone. I would also drive to the park and sit by the pond or walk the trails. I didn't have a young child at this time, so I could steal a little time for me. I don't know if your children are still young, but if they are, maybe you could suggest that husband take kids for a couple of hours so you can some "me" time. It is vitally important to nurture yourself.

Keep posting. I am interested to know how you are doing.

Peace and blessings. 

[dontknow2]

[quotePart of my problem is it takes so much energy to push for my needs.]

I was curious about this statement. [/quote]
Hi clljhns, It's been a while since we were posting. When I ventured back to this post today, I thought I'd further explain "part of my problem is it takes so much energy to push for my needs."

With my 2 teenage boys, it takes serious intent (energy) to get them to help with house chores. With my S17, I won't have a battle as long as I ask in a structured, fair way (i.e. pre-agreed upon chores between the 2 of them) with good timing and then leave him alone to do it his way. With my S13, he requires me to instruct every tiny detail, be clear about timing and exact punishment (every time for every task!)... . if I don't get the ingredients just right, it turns into a headache for me.

At work, it requires so much energy to fight for myself with my boss and co-workers. It comes up with small and big stuff (i.e. they offer to pay for lunch and I don't want them too but they just keep pushing because that is what they want; my boss trying to change me from an introvert to extrovert because he thinks it is better). I have social anxiety plus these people are non-stop (almost like they get off testing me). The harder I push for my interests, the stronger they push back.

I seem to just be able to keep my head afloat most days.

Hope you are well clljhns.

[clljhns]

Hi dontknow2,

I really understand what you are getting at. It was such a hassle to get my daughter to help with anything, that I would just do it myself. I realized though, that I had set this pattern in motion. I also know that when I asked anyone in family to help do something, that I would then hurry to do the task myself. I was unaware that I was doing this, until my daughter pointed this out. It was a light-bulb moment. I had to learn to step back and let others do their part.

I am not sure what to say about your colleagues and boss. I wonder if they recognize the stress you are under and this is their way of trying to alleviate the stress and also to include you. I went through a phase of being so overwhelmed by everything in my life that I didn't want to interact with others at work. I think I came across as aloof, not intending to, but I put people off.

I can't remember if I asked you before, so if I did, I apologize, but are you seeing a therapist? It might help to "organize" the clutter in your mind and help to alleviate some of the stress.


As for me, still muddling along. Seeing a therapist, and I am looking forward to the outcome. Keeping my goals in mind helps. Still struggle with depression, but I am doing my part to deal with this phase.

Good to hear from you. Hope all is well with you. Peace and blessings. 

[pallavirajsinghani]

There is a "selfless" life.  The "self" only expresses itself by negating itself so that others can feel fulfilled.  This is abdication.

Then there is a "selfish" life... . where the "self" takes that what it has  not earned.

And then there is a "self-fulfilled" life, where the "self" takes just credit for what it has earned and for what it has given... . both being equal

What is taken = What is given.  This results in "self-fulfillment".

I guess that the golden mean is what opens us to this calm state of being in joy (JOY as a state of being different from transitory sensational sequence of PLEASURES.)

Subtle, but powerful differences:  To live by values, vs. living by wants.  Feelings vs. lasting emotions.

This balance is a life long process.  It does not just appear magically.