Is it possible..

[Verbena]

... . that I have been so consumed with trying to help/understand/deal with the BPD of my dd28 (who is happily pregnant now and seems to be doing well) that I have missed signs that her father, my husband of almost 32 years, could be BPD as well? 

He is never wrong.  Never. Ever.  He is miserable and negative. If I have an idea, it is automatically wrong, won't work, a bad idea.  He does not apologize.  Ever.

He completely ignores what I say at least 80 percent of the time.  It's like I'm talking to myself.  He does not respond at all.  It doesn't occur to him that he should say something back to me.  Or, he will tell me he did respond when he didn't.  I can be standing two feet away and clearly see that his mouth didn't open and no sounds came out, but he will tell me he answered me.  He doesn't do this with anyone else, just me. He can have animated phone conversations with other people, but speaks in a flat voice to me. 

Once in awhile, he will perk up and seem to be pleasant and in a good mood.  These moments are rare and short-lived, and they are ALWAYS followed by a very foul mood.  He has zero insight into his own behavior and does not see himself as negative and nasty and miserable to be around.  At all.  Our dysfunctional marriage is my fault, not his. 

He throws a fit when the dogs bark if he is in his room trying to sleep (we have separate bedrooms, have for years) or if I make too much noise.  He slams doors frequently during these times.

His memory is appallingly bad and always has been.  His sense of time is terrible.  Yesterday and six months ago are the same to him.  He does not recall many incidents which stand out in my memory because of his behavior. 

He's so different from our daughter that it never even occured to me that he could be BPD, too.  Maybe he's not, but I've been wondering lately. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[chooselove]

Sure sounds possible that he's got something going on.  I can definitely see where your involvement with your daughter has kept you from having to face his behaviors and your willingness to tolerate it.  Sometimes, when marriages are not healthy, and we don't want to rock the boat, we numb themselves with food, drink, television, work, or affairs... . or we get absorbed into fixing others.  We don't want to give up what we are getting out of the marriage, whether it's financial security, status, etc., despite the emotional misery.  We are often fearful creatures when it comes to change.    I have often asked my daughter what would she be facing in her life if she wasn't consumed with blaming me for all her choices the last few decades.  Perhaps we should ask ourselves a similar question.  What would we be facing in our lives if we weren't putting all our attention and resources into trying to fix or help our kids.

I am in the middle of taking a long hard look at my own life and I am not willing to continue with the status quo.  I drew the line with my BPD daughter recently.  Decided to make her most recent loud, vulgar eruption the very last one under my roof.  I have disengaged from all of it and told her that it's her turn to work on some things before she can resume a relationship with me.  Two decades and tons of money devoted to her issues and it's only gotten worse and right here, right now, today, she still blames me for everything... . but also asks me for everything and is angry that everything I have is not hers, too.   My husband and I might just sell the house and take a nice long vacation far away.  Our marriage has paid a price for all the enabling, codependent, guilty, shame ridden behaviors we've allowed while trying to get her launched and relaunched in life. She refuses therapy.  We figure we could probably get enough money to live on for the next 20 years if we sell out and are careful and it's sounding like real good medicine to both of us right now.

Anyway, back to your question... . yes, there's something wrong with your husband.  No self-respecting woman would choose him for a husband unless she was afraid and/or wanted to be taken care of in other ways and willing to put up with it.  He is emotionally abusive, passive/aggressive and knows it or he wouldn't so overtly change his behavior when dealing with other people.

[mimis]

Hi there, I agree that it does seem like your husband may well have some issues going.  The anger is normal part, it also could be that you two have drifted apart and this is how he deals with it?  Seems like it really isn't fair to you. Just dealing with a child with BPD is hard enough, hang in there.  Choose love, I hear you too.  My D22 is giving me so much stress. No insight at all to her behavior and hard to get her to have insight.  She expects/demands a lot of everything and gives not much in return.  Just went with her to her Dr apt( suffers from chronic pain- another story for another time) She uses very strong pain meds for pain management and gets them refilled every 2 weeks. Well the dr sent refill PX to wrong pharmacy, She hates her normal Pharmacy as they treat her awful, I am not sure if its because she is rude, but anyways she went to get it refill and they told her they didn't get the refill order. I think she must have lost it on them because, she called me crying and of course, I ended up fixing it, I called the Dr office , found out sent to wrong pharmacy, so went to the pharmacy it was sent to , had them fill it and waited to make sure it was done.  My H met me at Pharmacy to take it over to her as he needed to talk her.  She never thanked me.  Also during apt with her doctor she bit my head off 3 times because I did not agree with some of her comments, I was trying to be understanding.  She even said I was a b___.  I did not argue back no ask for apology or set any boundaries,  I was too scared as we in her doctors office.  So choose love, I feel for you.  Let me say the words that your d should say to you -THANK YOU MOM FOR ALL YOUR CARE- I really love you for being so concerned for me and for helping me even when I do not deserve it. 

[hopeforhappiness10]

Well  as a mother that is finally coming to terms that her 21 year old daughter who more than likely has BPD and is not just insecure and immature,  it is so easy to try to find labels for bad and abusive behavior. I would caution you that sometimes giving it  the label BPD does make us justify their bad behavior based on the fact we feel sorry that they have this illiness.  As you know from your BPDdaughter, regardless of the an actual diagnosis, you must find a way to set appropriate boundries with anyone who treats you poorly.  This is something that I am continuing to learn even at 50. I have been married for almost 25 years and I know that patterns are set and it is very difficult to change the dynamics of a relationship.  Marriage and children are never easy but sometimes us "moms" need to take better care of ourselves.

Good luck and you are in my prayers.

[Verbena]

I appreciate all the responses.  I absolutely agree that it serves no purpose to attach labels to people.  I don't necessarily think he's BPD, but even if he is what difference does it make?  It's the behavior that I don't like regardless of what it's called. 

I also agree that no one would willingly choose to live with someone like my husband.  He was not this way when we dated all those years ago.  If he had been, I would have never married him.  But the behavior did start in small ways almost immediately.  He denies that of course.  Dealing with other problems with our dd has most definitely taken the focus off our own issues with each other.  I'm not perfect by any means and probably don't handle lots of situations the way I should, but I can tell you I never set out to have this kind of relationship. 

It is so bad now because I simply quit trying to figure out why he's angry, what I did to make him moody, what his current nasty mood is over.  I just accepted it and retreated away from him because I didn't know what else to do.  I also stopped being willing to have a physical relationship with someone who acts like a jerk 95 percent of the time and is only sweet and attentive when he "wants something" and knows he better act differently or he won't get it.  Sorry, that doesn't work anymore.  So maybe a lot of his anger now is over the loss of the physical relationship.  But again, he is the reason it's the way it is. 

The comments about boundaries have really made me think about what I need to do differently.  I wish I had your courage, chooselove, to just draw the line and make changes as you have done with your dd.  I wish I had the courage to end this marriage, but I guess I don't, mainly for financial reasons.

At the very least, I need to let him know I won't be ignored.  Lately, I've started asking him if he heard me when he ignores me (which is multiple times per day), and he seems almost shocked at this question.  It's like it doesn't occur to him that it's rude not to reply even though he complains a lot when people don't respond to his e-mails or texts.  It's just me, so he can be rude. 

  He is emotionally abusive, passive/aggressive and knows it or he wouldn't so overtly change his behavior when dealing with other people[/color].

Strangely enough, this was a little hard for me to hear.  Yet, I know it's true.  I can't believe that I still put up with this.  That's not the kind of person I am.  Or maybe I am exactly that kind of person.  I feel so conflicted.  I know that he won't change and I am sick of being around him. 

I pray about the situation all the time, about what I can do better to help him or help myself.  It's just tough.  Life shouldn't be like this. 

[jellibeans]

Verbena

I think it is very common to not see this in your husband especially since you have been focusing on your dd and helping her. In the last year my dd has been a lot better and I also see things in my husband I chose to ignore because I was too busy dealing with my dd and her issues. I also think that she put a lot of stress on us both and some people deal with that better than others. One thing I realized that my husband was very self absorbed and self centered... . that has caused me to distance myself in ways. I try to aproach things now from a different perspective and I try not to be controled by his selfishness. Dealing with BPD demands acceptance and empathy... . that is not a quality my husband is capable of so I feel I need to be the one that sets the example in our home.

My dd is a junior and will hopefully be leaving to go to school next year or soon after. Having an empty nest will force us both to face the reality of the situation.

[PyneappleDays]

Isn't that a kick in the pants when you find the seed?  My Ex, daughter father I think is were it partly stems from.  I know I'm logical and my daughter is very emotion so I know my part.  When I look at clues over the years.  His reactions to things the burn marks on his hands etc.  It all made sence.  So then were do you start. No sense dwelling on what was and how.  Just moving forward.

[Verbena]

Verbena

I think it is very common to not see this in your husband especially since you have been focusing on your dd and helping her. In the last year my dd has been a lot better and I also see things in my husband I chose to ignore because I was too busy dealing with my dd and her issues. .

jellibeans, this has also been true in my case.  When the situation with dd has been at its worst, the issues between my H and me have taken a back seat.  However, our problems were present long before we began having trouble with dd.  In those days, I spent a lot of time trying to figure him out and arguing about what in the world was wrong with him. 

I wish I had a dollar for every time I asked him what he as mad about.  His response was almost always a scowl and "I'm not mad about anything!"  Yeah, right.  I also wish I had a dollar for every time someone asked me what he was mad about.  I tried to explain this to him years ago, and he just couldn't comprehend that it's not just me that sees this. 

My husband is incredibly critical.  He almost never compliments me, almost never is satisfied with anything I do.  He can "find the negative in any situation."  This is so ironic because he just recently used those exact words to describe his elderly aunt who I am POSITIVE has BPD.  If my husband does respond to me, he is VERY slow to do so.  He literally might take a full minute to reply to something I said.  That might not sound like a long time, but it is.  He seems to process things at a snail's pace.  On the other hand, if I point out his behavior he has a lightning quick response to me. 

I am really wondering how becoming a grandfather will affect him.  He is excited about it as I am.  DD thinks it will help him.  Another irony here:  DD cannot see her own issues but can see her father's.  My H can see DD's issues but not his own.  And here I have been stuck in the middle for all these years. 

We have not discussed our problems with our relationship for a long time.  Four years ago I tried to have a discussion with him about our issues.  He literally just sat and looked at me and said nothing.  Two days later he gives me a long, rambling letter as his response. This  letter made it crystal clear that we are on different planets when it comes to how we see our issues.  That is when I just gave up. I did write a response back (yes, I know it's silly to write letters when we live in the same house) which I never gave him.  I just couldn't see the point.  After that I just emotionally checked out, we stopped sleeping in the same room, and nothing has improved. 

My marriage has really been over for a long time, and we probably should have divorced years ago.  I know that.  I also know that I do not want to upset my kids, disappoint my family, and devastate my finances.  It seems ridiculous to stay married for nearly 32 years and then divorce.  I know it happens, but somehow I can't take that step.  So... . my question is this.  How can I use the boundaries and acceptance of DD's BPD (which have greatly improved my relationship with DD) to improve my relationship with my husband (who may or may not have BPD)? 

I'm open to suggestions.   

[jellibeans]

Venbena

I am right with you and I wish I could give you some advise. Maybe you should visit the staying board and ask over there. With all the stress my family has been through I personally had to focus on my kids. I just can't take on his issues  right now. I truly feel like I have a third kid at times and I use many of the tools I use with my dd16 on him. Good luck... . if you figure it out let me know because I am right there with you sister.

[Thursday]

verbena,

I have two things to comment on as you are getting such wonderful responses from everyone I will be brief (for a change) because I've been on here for awhile and do need to at least get dressed!

It's the behavior that I don't like regardless of what it's called.  

Yes, who cares what the problem is called. It gets too complicated anyway. Behaviors CAN improve.

I think it is wonderful that your husband took the effort to write a response to you. Writing takes some perseverance which tells me he has an interest in communication. That in turn tells me that he cares.

Your situation sounds very complicated, anger is so damaging but it does seem to me that there is something worth working on here. I'm wondering if he drinks? Sounds a lot like a friend of mine's situation and her husband is an alcoholic... . the poor memory and what you describe about him thinking he has answered you are things she has said about her hubby.

I'll look for future posts about what is going on and for now wish you the best... . take care of yourself... . daughter and husband not letting you find much peace. Sometimes you just have to go out and find it while the difficulties go on in the background.

Thursday

[Verbena]

Thursday,

Thanks for your response.  Yes, writing the letter showed he cared, but it was so full of denial and blaming me and life in general for how he acts that it disgusted me.  

My H does not drink at all.  He did drink 30 years ago, and I did not like it.  He quit not because of me, I don't think, but because he saw that it could be a problem. His father was a recovered alcoholic when he died in 1983, and his mother was addicted to many medications for about 50 years.

Ironically, when he drank way back then, it made him very sweet and lovable.  But it was so strange because that's not how he is.  :)D has said many times over the years that she wishes her dad would just have a beer once in a while and chill out.  

I also wanted to mention this.  A few years back he hurt his neck and couldn't work.  He was on several medications--steroids and a couple others.  He was a completely different person during that time.  I wondered later if one of those medicines was an anti-depressant.  I wish I had looked at the labels and written down what they were.  

If I were to suggest he try medication, I can't even tell you how that would go over.  He would be enraged I'm sure.  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

verbena

I am living with your twin just so you know except he still drinks. My H would not take meds either and that is because of his mother who was addicted to many drugs and was hospitalized several times during her life. When I ask what his mom's DX was he tells me there was nothing wrong with her... . she was just a drug addict... . he can't even accept that his mom was a mental ill person and maybe that is why they gave her so many meds to try and help her.

Have you tried going to a T and then have him come to a session? Maybe that third person could help in mediating the situation.

[Verbena]

verbena

I am living with your twin just so you know except he still drinks. My H would not take meds either and that is because of his mother who was addicted to many drugs and was hospitalized several times during her life. When I ask what his mom's DX was he tells me there was nothing wrong with her... . she was just a drug addict... . he can't even accept that his mom was a mental ill person and maybe that is why they gave her so many meds to try and help her.

Have you tried going to a T and then have him come to a session? Maybe that third person could help in mediating the situation.

Wow, we really do have similar situations.  My H gets very angry if anything is ever said about his mother's drug addictions or his father's drinking.  His sister told me ages ago that his mother would often not speak to anyone in the family for days at a time when they were growing up but when I asked him about that, he had no memory of it. 

To answer your question about therapy, I told my H a few years ago that I needed to talk to someone and why.  He said nothing.  My insurance would not cover even one session, and the out-of-pocket I would have had to pay for just one session was sky high.  So I never did it.  There is NO WAY that he would ever go with me even if I had gone or started going now.

I try to focus on the qualities of my husband that are positive.  He doesn't drink, do drugs, gamble, or cheat.  He works very hard, is reliable and trustworthy, takes care of our finances, is handy around the house, and tries to give me what I need or just want, within reason.  I know lots of women would love to be able to say those things about their husband.  He's such a miserable jerk to be around that I have trouble sometimes remembering the good qualities, though. 

If I'm not going to leave, I know that I have to do something to hold him accountable for his behavior.  I just don't know what.   

[co.jo]

Are those good qualities enough for you?

I know no one can judge another person's relationship. I will just say that many years ago, I was in an angry, unhealthy marriage with 4 kids , 3-10, including my daughter with extreme behavior. I grew increasingly frustrated and uncomfortable being with someone I had no respect for and didn't trust. Eventually we split up, although he was the one who made the final decision. I have never been sorry, as I did not want my children growing up thinking it was ok for them to treat a partner with such disrespect. Although I thought no one would want to take on the situation- I mean really, 4 kids, one with undiagnosed BPD, but someone did. I have been so grateful my children can now see a healthy relationship, and hope they will choose a mate who would walk through hell for them as mine does and has.

I was terrified to be on my own financially, but it has been fine. we have struggled, but never starved. Life is short.I am glad I chose love.

[pessim-optimist]

Dear Verbena,

Like others said, it is impossible to judge another person's marriage from a distance like this... .

Perhaps there are too many problems that aren't going to improve.

Perhaps if you change your half of the relationship, (proper boundaries and also treating him like you would want to be treated - initially regardless of how he acts) who knows, the relationship itself might change for the better and he might change back into his better self. Please notice the emphasis on 'back' - I am not suggesting that you will be able to change him, and I am not suggesting that he will magically become someone else... . It may get better though. It may or may not work in your case. It might be worth a shot, since you have been married for so long... .

Let me share some of my ups and downs, even though I have never regretted marrying my husband, he has no serious issues, and we are very compatible. So we may be talking apples and oranges here, yet it's an example of how one person can influence the dynamic of the relationship:

When we first met, I admired how polite and loving he was.

With time and stress added to our relationship over his uBPD daughter (my SD), our conflicts started getting more and more nasty, and it started reminding me of my parents (I never wanted to have a marriage like my parents!). Then here and there, my husband would say during a fight "you look just like your mother!" (Did that make me white-hot angry!   )... . And to my surprise and displeasure, my husband was starting to act like my dad... . I knew something needed to change, or we'd be unhappy.

By coincidence, I read several books on relationships, and to my shame I discovered some things I was doing that were sinking our relationship: it basically came down to showing kindness and respect. While I was not doing anything extreme by any means, I realized that often my tone of voice, choice of words and facial expressions were not what I'd like to see and hear if I were in my husband's shoes... . I had the excuse of stress and urgency of some situations, yet, that would have been a poor excuse to settle for unhappiness.

So, I made a conscious effort to be diligent in my behavior. And, would you believe it? I have my wonderful, thoughtful, kind and loving husband back.  

Of course we still live on planet earth, and some days are good, some not so good, but we have our happy marriage back and resolve our conflicts well.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that your situation is the same as mine, and I am not saying that it's an easy fix. I definitely don't want to sound preachy... . Your husband seems to have some serious issues. At the same time, it might be worth a shot, since you have been married for so long... .

Also - investing into a therapist might be cheaper in the long-run, if it saves your marriage. What do you think?

[Verbena]

co.jo:  I'm glad you were able to break away from a bad marriage and find a good one.  I wonder sometimes how things would be now if I had done that years ago.  

pessim-optimist:  I hear what you're saying about "doing unto others" and feel guilty that I don't make more of an effort to do that now. I have tried it, tried it for years with not much success.  He has made an effort a few times to change his behavior, but it's completely unnatural for him and it doesn't stick.  I really think my H enjoys being miserable, and I know I can't change that.  

Investing in therapy is something I need to consider for myself.  Again, he would never go, not in a million years.  

Lately, I've been keeping a journal of his  behavior--ignoring me, the critical remarks, the negativity.  It is shocking to see it on paper. You mentioned proper boundaries.  I need help with that. In terms of boundaries, how should I have handled the following situations?   

Example:   We've had no meaningful conversation all day, but he sees me opening up a package of hamburger meat and must tell me that I had better be sure to wash the cutting board because the meat touched it.  I am a grown woman and know how to clean my kitchen.  I am a neat freak, in fact.  :)oes he really think I am going to just leave bits of hamburger meat on the cutting board and not clean it.    Or does he just need to tell me constantly (which he does) what I am doing wrong?   

Another example:  I spent an entire afternoon making a cushion for a bench outdoors.  The next day he burns a hole in it.  I tell him there's a hole in it (not accusing, just told him I saw the hole) and his first reaction is an indignant, "Well, I certainly didn't do it on purpose!" with the familiar scowl and walking away from me.  No apology.    

Another  example:  He insists that if our son tries to Skype with us at the time he messaged us (son is in China and 13 hours ahead) that we will not be here.  I tell him that we will be here because son is 13 hours ahead of us, not the other way around.  He then realizes he had it backward, that I am actually right, and  he raises his voice and says, "Well he just needs to call us right now if he's on his computer anyway!" No admitting that he accidentally reversed the time--because he's never, ever wrong, even when he is. 

A final example:  H borrows a trailer to load limbs from the trees in the front yard he trimmed.  He parks the trailer in the driveway which is a distance from the debris in the yard.  I ask him if it would be easier to park the trailer in front of the house.  He immediately says, "No, I'm not parking it there."  WE start the clean-up together and he realizes quickly the trailer is parked too far away.  So he says, "I think I'm going to park the trailer in front of the house."  I tell him that was what I said in the beginning--and I did not say it in an ugly way either.  He shoots me a nasty look and responds with lightning speed (he normally takes forever to respond, if at all), "I know that's what you said!" 

Getting an idea of what I have to deal with? 

[pessim-optimist]

Hm, I see what you are saying... . It sounds like your relationship is in a state of what some professionals call "emotional flooding". Basically where there has been so much negativity over a long period of time, that the interactions between partners almost constantly trigger very strong negative emotions, and subsequently negative, defensive reactions. That is a very difficult and painful place to be in... .

It is one of the latter stages of a relationship breakdown, and even though it's reversible, it also depends on what the rest of the relationship is about.

I think your decision to go to therapy will help you greatly in looking at all the aspects of the relationship.

The good news is that while men are more vulnerable in this (more susceptible to experience these strong emotions) and therefore you are so often on the receiving end of a lot of these behaviors, you (as the less affected person in these exchanges) have more control over the dynamic.

I found an interesting article on that here:

www.simplemarriage.net/flooding-stop-to-start/

And also a related article on our website: Predictable Patterns of Marriage Breakdown

This might be a boundary type situation:

Another  example:  He insists that if our son tries to Skype with us at the time he messaged us (son is in China and 13 hours ahead) that we will not be here.  I tell him that we will be here because son is 13 hours ahead of us, not the other way around.  He then realizes he had it backward, that I am actually right, and  he raises his voice and says, "Well he just needs to call us right now if he's on his computer anyway!" No admitting that he accidentally reversed the time--because he's never, ever wrong, even when he is.

I'd say in a calm and gentle, but firm voice: "That would be nice if he did. There is no need to raise your voice at me, though." He'd probably react defensively, in which case I'd reply "No need to get nasty, either." And I'd exit.

As painful as your other examples are and as difficult as they might be to live with, they aren't good candidates for establishing boundaries, rather an opportunity for changing the dynamic and breaking the cycle of negativity (I know, not at all easy):

Example:   We've had no meaningful conversation all day, but he sees me opening up a package of hamburger meat and must tell me that I had better be sure to wash the cutting board because the meat touched it.  I am a grown woman and know how to clean my kitchen.  I am a neat freak, in fact.  Does he really think I am going to just leave bits of hamburger meat on the cutting board and not clean it.    Or does he just need to tell me constantly (which he does) what I am doing wrong?

Maddening, yes. If I was facing away from him and was really irritated, I'd take a second to breathe and compose myself. Then I'd say in as peaceful and friendly voice as I could muster: "Of course, no worries, honey." And I'd leave it, and pat myself on the back for making our evening more peaceful... .    

Another example:  I spent an entire afternoon making a cushion for a bench outdoors.  The next day he burns a hole in it.  I tell him there's a hole in it (not accusing, just told him I saw the hole) and his first reaction is an indignant, "Well, I certainly didn't do it on purpose!" with the familiar scowl and walking away from me.  No apology.

He probably realized right away that he ruined the cushion you just made, felt bad about it, and apprehensive of what you were going to say - his feelings were building up ahead of time. He knew you would be upset, and he lashed out in frustration when you brought it up... .

I'd leave it alone and say later on: "I am sorry if it sounded like I was accusing you of burning the cushion on purpose earlier today. I did not mean to say that. I was just really sad about the hole, because I worked really hard on it." I'd leave it at that. I wouldn't expect a positive reaction at this point, as he might be too defensive and unable to connect emotionally. If he'd say something close to 'sorry', I'd say: "That's ok, accidents happen. I was really sad, but I am feeling better now. It's just a cushion."

A final example:  H borrows a trailer to load limbs from the trees in the front yard he trimmed.  He parks the trailer in the driveway which is a distance from the debris in the yard.  I ask him if it would be easier to park the trailer in front of the house.  He immediately says, "No, I'm not parking it there."  WE start the clean-up together and he realizes quickly the trailer is parked too far away.  So he says, "I think I'm going to park the trailer in front of the house."  I tell him that was what I said in the beginning--and I did not say it in an ugly way either.  He shoots me a nasty look and responds with lightning speed (he normally takes forever to respond, if at all), "I know that's what you said!"

After he said that he'd re-park in front of the house, I'd smile and say: "Thank you, honey." Or I'd simply say in an upbeat tone: "Ok."

These are just suggestions that may or may not work for you, not easy things to do and say when you feel overwhelmed by the ugliness and negativity of your relationship... . And I am not saying you are single-handedly going to rescue your marriage, either. Hang in there, Verbena. You have a lot on your plate. 

[chooselove]

I wonder if he'd be willing to listen to some youtube videos on hidden shame and how it's often behind hair trigger anger like this.  Oftentimes men don't realize that they are angry because they are so loaded up with shame and even the smallest thing can trigger it and then their feelings rush to the surface and they get in high energy defensive mode.  When I'd have issues with my husband sometimes I'd just put my kindle on the bed after lights out and play a video or podcast I'd chosen earlier. I pick topics about me, too.  He would get quiet and listen to them and actually reflect.  There are some real good spiritual based ones on there if you're into that, too... .   I think it's called 7 Minute Marriage Solution.  They go down the list (lovingly) about 7 things not to do in your marriage and 7 things TO do.  I have played those and gotten some good shifts in our relationship over the years.

[mom2bpd]

  Nice to meet you, Verbena.  I've enjoyed reading your thread.  My H is also a BPD, and I realized it before I realized how much my DD was one.  I thought it was the fact that he's an alcoholic that he was so defensive and always thought I was saying things to him that I never said.  He would explode over absolutely nothing, and I would just be shocked and not know what to do.  I tried marriage counseling with him, but he only went a couple of times and wasn't willing to pay his share of the cost nor look at himself.  So that went no where.  I got so mad at him one night when he started yelling at me for no reason and following me around the house when I tried to leave the room.  After many years of these kind of incidents with him, this was the worst and was enough to make me take some action.  I moved out of the bedroom we'd shared.  He was shocked and thought this wouldn't last, but I continued to stay in the other room for 2 years much to his dislike.  I worked on myself and went to counseling ALONE during this time, as I'm continuing to do now.  I started being much more direct with him about what he was doing that I found offensive.  Of course, now that we are back in the same room, he's much more aware that it could happen again, or I could leave.  I think laying down some firm boundaries and telling him that he couldn't talk to me in such a rude way has helped considerably.  Also, he realizes now that I'll stand up to him and that I know my self-worth so he's more likely to think about his behavior.  I'm not saying that this solved all of our problems for sure.  I think that men who are BPD are more gripy and defensive, while their female counterparts are more emotional and easily hurt by something we said.  Good luck, and I'm also right there with you in that I'm living with two in my immediate family.  It's a tough situation that we are in so thank God for Al-anon and this blog.

[hopeforhappiness10]

Verbena,

It really seems like you have got some very wonderful and supportive post from people since my post last week.  I just want to answer one of your questions about your husbands meds that he was on when he was hurt.  Many pain meds dealing with back and neck are actually drugs that are also used for treating depression/anxiety/moods problems.  Actually, the one that treats fibermaligia is basically a depression med.  I'm not sure what he was on but that could be the reason why he had such a dramatic change.

Everyone on this board has been so supportive about your decision to stay but for your friends or family who do not understand - Remember they don't walk in your shoes,  so they should not judge.  Hopefully whether you stay or leave - you will find ways to make yourself happy. Even if it is for small moments.  Take  care.

[Verbena]

I truly appreciate all the responses here.

Pessim-optiminist:  I read through the links you gave, and the information there certainly applies to my situation.  I admire you for recognizing what you needed to do in your own situation with your H, and I'm glad things improved for you.  I want to believe the same could happen for me, but I'm so skeptical.  I am in the process of checking into my insurance to see if anything has changed regarding coverage of therapy.  I have to do something.  Part of me thinks I need to just sit him down and say that I can't go on like this, that we either need to try therapy or start making plans to go our separate ways. And part of me thinks he will blow up at this suggestion and just say he's done and let's divorce.  He knows, as I do, that a divorce would hurt us both financially.  For one thing, he would lose his insurance completely as he is covered through me and could not get coverage on his own because he's had skin cancer in the past.  And that's another issue.  He REFUSES to wear sunscreen and protect himself although the doctor told him after a horrendous surgery which disfigured his nose  and resulted in 180 stiches on his face and arm that he would very, very likely get it again if he didn't change his ways.  He is just that stubborn.  Getting on this new "free" government health care is not an option.

chooselove:  I have considered talking to our pastor, but I just can't do it.  People at our church have no clue as to what our marriage is like, and to tell anyone there would be the ultimate humiliation for him--and me too.  I did look at the   7-Minute Marriage Solution and feel it could work for us, if I could get him to watch it and talk about it.  That is a very big IF. 

Mom2BPD, I am so sorry you have to deal with two BPD's in your life. Adding alcoholism in the mix can't help.   I am not convinced my husband is BPD; I just know something is really wrong with him.  I admire you also for taking a stand and making changes that seemed to help.  My husband moved out of our bedroom about five years ago,  and I don't see that changing.  Even though I have no interest in a physical relationship with him if he can't change his behavior, I have suggested a couple of times that he could sleep in our room if he wanted to.  His reaction was typical.  He said nothing. 


hopeforhappiness10:  I did not know that meds for pain and meds for depression/anxiety/mood problems could be the same, but I'm not suprised to learn this.  Whatever he was taking made such an enormous change in him that I am convinced there is a chemical imbalance there.  My BPD dd and my son both have mentioned many times that they thought their dad needed medication.  I wish I could convince him to go to the doctor and at least discuss it.  He is MAJORLY against medication for mental issues and would never believe that he behaved differently during that period of time when he was on whatever he was on.  He most likely would not even remember anything about it.  His memory is unbelievably bad. 

I know this is not the right board for these discussions, but I am thankful for all of your comments. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders