Is this reasonable ?

[bpbreakout]

Dear XXXX

I need to respond to a few things you have said about our marriage. I hope this isn’t too long.

I don’t pretend to properly understand what’s going on for you.

I am clear you have given our relationship a time limit and I guess from other comments may already be looking elsewhere. That makes me feel sad but of course I’m not totally surprised.

I have received a huge amount of “feedback” on my behaviour in the last few weeks. Among other things I am clear you that you feel I am cold and distant, you want to develop your career, you feel used around the house, you are at an important stage in your life. There are big issues with the children. You don’t feel supported by me. You feel rejected. You are having family issues. These are all valid and real feelings.

I am truly sorry you feel this way and here we are at the crossroads.

I’m sure you can accept there are two sides to every story including ours. I don’t want to go into detail. However I strongly believe that no relationship can work if both parties are not heard and respected and there has to be room for both parties to be human and have feelings.

What I can see when I look at you is someone who seems to feel so angry, sensitive, rejected and unsupported that she finds it impossible to hear her husband on so many levels and becomes scathing and judgemental without necessarily meaning it. I do believe there are good intentions as well as anger.

I have listened carefully to all the things you have said and written to me recently.

I am also at the point where I’m feeling that doing things because of criticisms, threats and ultimatums is no way to lead your life.

I can’t resolve the way you feel. I feel you expect far too much of our relationship by saying all these things about me and expecting the responses from me you so obviously feel you deserve.

Things are changing. I’m trusting trust my own instincts much more. I actually feel much better and much more in control of myself. I feel free of the need to constantly justify myself to you or get dragged into horrible arguments. Occasionally I will say things that you don’t like if I think they are important.

If I’m feeling that you are consistently rude and disparaging I think it is ok to feel like I want to keep my distance, if I feel that you are being too hard on XXXX it is ok to say something, if I feel upset about your abusive behaviour it is ok to want an apology and I actually am allowed to ask how you are without being branded as discriminating against you. My feelings are as important as yours. I think it’s ok to expect you to take some responsibility for what’s going on with us as well as me.

I don’t think telling people they are “kopping out” they need to “step up to the mark”, “play the game” or “face their inadequacies” works for anyone. If you really and truly want a loving relationship I really don’t understand what you believe can be achieved with this approach other than some ticking some boxes to keep you happy for a while.

I would like to live the rest of my life as well as I can. I would like all my relationships whatever they are to be based on genuine mutual respect and something that’s got more a lot more positive than negative.

You are responsible for your basic well being and happiness whether you stay married to me or otherwise. It’s not up to me to do this all for you or take the blame when things go wrong for you. I deserve more.

For me I can’t guarantee anything other than that the door is open to resolving things. You are going to have to sort out a few of your own issues on your own to get yourself to a place where you are not so angry and resentful towards me. I can only ask you to ask yourself whether your current attitude and frame of mind is really workable in the long term for you. I don’t have the right to make you do this but I can ask.

I’m happy living from day to day for the time being. If you have made a decision that you have had enough I have no choice but to accept it.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[tired-of-it-all]

Very well said. Know that you wrote this for YOU. Don't expect it to change her.

[SweetCharlotte]

I guess it's reasonable, bpbreakout.

Reasonable is not the problem. She seems to want more feeling, and you are refusing to give that (maybe because you don't have feelings for her anymore) and you are wrapping it up in layers of impeccable reasoning.

As a woman this situation would not be tenable for me. This doesn't sound like a man who is truly involved with me and wants to stay married to me. One thing I like about my husband, uBPD notwithstanding, is that he always calls me his "wife" and makes me feels special to him. That is a basic need for most of us.

[waverider]

Keep this, but dont send it. Then in a few months rewrite and simplify it. Keep doing this and it will help evolve into the core issues you have with the RS. Still dont send it but you will then know what to work on.

We have all started off by writing things like this. It will be perceived as a threat. There are a lot of words and issues here. A pwBPD will not see them as reasoning to be understood, but an accusation to be fought. The more words the more "cut and pasting" of these words they will occur twisting it all out of context and away from the real issues.

She will read you are not happy, think she is a failure and you are thinking of abandoning her. It will not be read with the intent it is meant. Too much info.

This will lead to even further frustration and resentment on your part. Battle lines will be drawn

[Skip]

Have you seen the "four horsemen" article?  Look at Stage Three.  :)o you see this letter as possibly "Over time, partners learn to expect that they are 'gridlocked'; that they cannot resolve their differences, and that any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment".

I read the note a few times and I see these 47 words "I strongly believe that no relationship can work if both parties are not heard and respected and there has to be room for both parties to be human and have feelings. For me I can’t guarantee anything other than that the door is open to resolving things." buried in a sea (750) of not too constructive stuff.

Is this really how you really feel "I guess from other comments may already be looking elsewhere. That makes me feel sad but of course I’m not totally surprised." Are you looking for "yeah, I agree it's sad but not surprising"?   

You're very frustrated right now.  You feel unheard.  That's hard.  We've all been there.

Predictable Patterns of Marriage Breakdown

Mark Dombeck, Ph.D.

Source: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=76487.40

According to Mark Dombeck, Ph.D., Director of Mental Help Net and former Assistant Professor of Psychology at Idaho State University, there is no single reason why a relationship begins to break down. However, once a relationship does start to break down, there is a predictable sequence of events that tends to occur. Highly regarded psychologist and researcher John Gottman, Ph.D. suggests that there are four stages to this sequence which he has labeled, "The Four Horsemen Of the Apocalypse".

Stage One The first stage of the breakdown process involves intractable conflict and complaints. All couples have conflicts from time to time, but some couples are able to resolve those conflicts successfully or 'agree to disagree', while others find that they are not. As we observed earlier, it is not the number or intensity of arguments that is problematic but rather whether or not resolution of those arguments is likely or possible. Couples that get into trouble find themselves in conflicts that they cannot resolve or compromise upon to both party's satisfaction. Such disagreements can be caused by any number of reasons, but might involve a clash of spousal values on core topics such as whether to have children, or how to handle money.

Frequently, couples assume that misunderstandings are at the root of their conflicts. "If my spouse really understood why I act as I do, he or she would agree with me and go along with what I want", is a commonly overheard refrain. Acting on this belief, spouses often try to resolve their conflicts by repeatedly stating and restating their respective rationals during disagreements. This strategy of repetition usually doesn't work because most of the time couple conflicts are not based on misunderstandings, but rather on real differences in values. When this is the case, stating and restating one's position is based on a mistaken premise and can only cause further upset.

Stage Two In the second stage of the breakdown process, one or both spouses starts to feel contempt for the other, and each spouse's attitudes about their partner change for the worse. For example, initially each spouse may have mostly positive regard for their partner and be willing to write off any 'bad' or 'stupid' behavior their partner acts out as a transient, uncommon stress-related event. However, as 'bad' or 'stupid' behavior is observed again and again, spouses get frustrated, start to regard their partner as actually being a 'bad' or 'stupid' person, and begin to treat their partner accordingly. Importantly, the 'bad' behavior that the spouse demonstrates doesn't have to be something he or she actually does. Instead, it could be something that he or she doesn't do, that the spouse expects them to do (such as remembering to put the toilet seat down after use).

Conflict by itself doesn't predict marriage problems. Some couples fight a lot but somehow never manage to lose respect for each other. Once contempt sets in, however, the marriage is on shaky ground. Feelings of contempt for one's spouse are a powerful predictor of relationship breakdown, no matter how subtlety they are displayed. In a famous study, Gottman was able to predict with over 80% accuracy the future divorces of multiple couples he and his team observed based on subtle body language cues suggesting contemptuous feelings (such as dismissive eye-rolling). Contempt doesn't have to be expressed openly for it to be hard at work rotting the foundations of one's relationship.

Stage Three Most people find conflict and contempt to be stressful and react to such conditions by entering the third stage of breakdown, characterized by partner's increasingly defensive behavior. Men in particular (but women too) become hardened by the chronicity of the ongoing conflict, and may react even more acutely during moments when conflict is most heated by becoming overwhelmed and "flooded"; a condition which is psychologically and emotionally quite painful. Over time, partners learn to expect that they are 'gridlocked'; that they cannot resolve their differences, and that any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment.

Stage Four Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners who have reached this third 'defensive' stage, may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, "Stonewalling", perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her.

The "four horsemen" breakdown sequence plays out amongst the backdrop of partner compatibility. Basically compatible partners may demonstrate a whole lot of conflict, but they don't often become contemptuous and angry with their partners, because there are by definition few things that they will disagree upon. In contrast, partners who start out with incompatible goals, values or dreams are far more likely to get into seemingly irresolvable conflicts. Also, once the process of contempt, defensiveness and avoidance begins, small incompatibilities can become magnified as spouses pursue other interests as an alternative to conflict.

[bpbreakout]

I have to say I do feel grateful that there are people out there taking the trouble to read these posts, thank you all 

Tired, thanks for the validation, really appreciated

Charlotte, thank for a girls perspective it's important to get that side of things and I think you really understand where BPDw is coming from and yes it has become untenable for her. The word "refusal" is not where I am at though the fact that you picked this up is obviously something to think about for me, I just don't feel I have what it takes to make her feel special when she is being so rude and disparaging on a daily basis, in all honesty I wish I could rise above it or ignore it in some way as I have done for so many years but I just can't any more

Wave I think you are right the letter is probably better as a statement of where I am to myself which can evolve over time. It helps clarify boundaries and also areas where we can agree to differ

Skip , no I haven't seen the 4 Horsemen until now though I would indentify with around 3 or 4 at the moment. Interesting that the 47 words are the only things I have said direct to BPDw & have left it at that (BTW it wasn't well received & I bet Charlotte would have a good idea what the reaction was). Re the other quote on looking elsewhere I guess I feel a mixture of angry (because BPDw has made explicit threats), powerless to a degree but also accepting BPDw needs to work out a few things for herself and if she comes half way (or whatever is realistic) it's because she wants to and not because of me making threats. TBH, I guess what I'm really looking for is "sorry I have hurt you, I'm prepared to work on things" and actually I think I deserve it

Cheers & thanks again

[waverider]

Good article Skip, I can see this pattern in my past nonBPD relationship.

In particular the onset of contempt, which I guess is an aggressive close cousin to resentment.

[Stalwart]

BPB: 

Hey my friend I’m really hoping that you don’t intend to send her this.

I can’t see her making half way past the first paragraph and being able to focus in on it let alone any of the rest. It’s my experience that either through feelings of fear or pure anger that turns to rage she’ll disconnect immediately. It doesn’t matter how high-functioning my wife is, and she is, when they’re confronted the shields go up automatically and focusing in on anything tangible probably isn’t going to happen after that.

I haven’t found raw logic is the best approach. I’m sure she probably see things through an entirely different logic than you do. That’s why she’s ill and you’re not.

I take things in small steps that aren’t overwhelming and have found that addressing the primary causes usually eliminate most of the secondary behaviors that sprout off it.

Here’s the one key factor you seem to focus in on first and there is probably more to that reasoning than just being random. “Among other things I am clear you that you feel I am cold and distant.”

You’ve already identified the key issue she feels and her feelings are her reality. After her recognition of that fact in your shared life it can only go downhill from there.

I’d leave the list behind me and start from the beginning if I wanted to try and change things. I’d focus every effort on showing her that you aren’t or at least you are no longer cold and distant. That’s not easy to put all the past hurt and anger behind you so you can even approach that and try it. By this time you probably are actually somewhat cold and distant. I know I was and it’s always for good reason and lots of them that we turn that way.

If you want to make change I’ve found that it can only be made by both of us if I make the change happen. I find if I do that well that in turn her attitudes and everything about her responses will eventually change as well. Maybe then when the primary issue is settled down the secondary one’s may either take care of themselves or at least there will be subtle openings to talk to her about them in a carefully planned manner.

You want to make a change but no change is made quickly or easily. If you really want to try and change it try, try an change her opinion of you being cold and distant so you can open a respeptive door to her.

Try to start to do the things on a constant basis that shows her you’re engaged and love her. Words don’t really work as well as actions do to show her that you do love her, want for her and for a better relationship for both of you. It’s tough but without gaining a whole new foothold on trust, and that means her trusting you and your relationship the path can’t be cleared to even attempt walking down it any further.

Just my opinion of what I read here but that’s where I’d start to address the situation if I really wanted to try and make any positive changes in the relationship.

[babyoctopus]

Keep this, but dont send it. Then in a few months rewrite and simplify it. Keep doing this and it will help evolve into the core issues you have with the RS. Still dont send it but you will then know what to work on.

We have all started off by writing things like this. It will be perceived as a threat. There are a lot of words and issues here. A pwBPD will not see them as reasoning to be understood, but an accusation to be fought. The more words the more "cut and pasting" of these words they will occur twisting it all out of context and away from the real issues.

She will read you are not happy, think she is a failure and you are thinking of abandoning her. It will not be read with the intent it is meant. Too much info.

This will lead to even further frustration and resentment on your part. Battle lines will be drawn

 

I AGREE... . Your letter is PERFECTLY reasonable, but only to a reasonable person! Your BPD SO is NOT a reasonable person.

File it away, and come back to it. It validates to YOU what you are feeling at this moment. And for us non-BPD partners, that is very important. We tend to forget how we have been tormented during the good times. When the bad times return, you will have a record from last time, and you will see you are not the crazy one'

I have, over the years, written manifestos of how I was feeling one way or another, with confessions and proclamations in there- and I can honestly tell you EVERY SINGLE TIME the information was later used against me. A pwBPD uses any and all information (and they have incredible memory banks, does anyone agree?) in their future "cases" to prove how screwed up YOU are.

Your feelings don't matter one bit to a pwBPD, unless, of course, those feelings stand in the way of whatever the pwBPD needs. Then they will use you, manipulate you, and crush you like a bean to get what they are after.

Be careful, and stay well. Take care of YOU. You can do this without announcing it to your BPD SO. In fact, it will be better for you, because then your are not giving them a "heads up" so they can sabotage you.

[bpbreakout]

Thanks Stalwart and Baby Octopus for responding.

What S said about leaving the hurt and anger makes so much sense though the issue for me is that I'm not sure I can do it any more having picked myself up and dusted myself off so so so many times over the past 17-18 years and kept things going by doing just what you suggest. In doing this I have put my own feelings 2nd for so long I really don't think I can do any more of this.

What BC says about filing the letter away also makes a lot of sense, I can't see it going anywhere useful and yes I'm sure it would backfire against me in some way.

We are seeing a counsellor next week. I need to think about how I'm going to approach it. My overwealming feeling is that I want to be "me" which at the moment is someone who is exhausted with all the fighting and put downs, someone who wants some distance from BPDw and someone who feels like they have had their face rubbed in the dirt too many times. Of course this looks "cold and distant" on the outside but it isn't my reality.

I guess if I take this approach it may well not get anywhere with BPDw but I really feel I'm at the point where I have to be true to myself and let things evolve naturally.

[Skip]

 

I AGREE... . Your letter is PERFECTLY reasonable, but only to a reasonable person! Your BPD SO is NOT a reasonable person.

I think many of us feel these frustrations. I know I have.  It's good to get it down and do what we are doing with it - taking it apart - seeing that we are trying to elicit a certain type of response - using defensiveness and reverse psychology.

But does it help us to express it to the other person this way - BPD or not?

My overwealming feeling is that I want to be "me" which at the moment is someone who is exhausted with all the fighting and put downs, someone who wants some distance from BPDw and someone who feels like they have had their face rubbed in the dirt too many times. Of course this looks "cold and distant" on the outside but it isn't my reality.

I guess if I take this approach it may well not get anywhere with BPDw but I really feel I'm at the point where I have to be true to myself and let things evolve naturally.

You are correct.  It will not get anywhere.

Maybe it will help to do a few solo flights to get yourself in a better place, first.

Good mental health is hard.  It takes strength.  Sometimes we have to dig pretty deep for it.