Trying to stick up for what I want

[Depression = 72% of members]

My uBPD spouse has identified my parents as "enemies," and has felt this way since they first met six years ago.  If we interact with them, it's pretty much now only on her terms.  As a result, our relationship with them has never been allowed to mature along healthy, loving lines which has been really tough for me as I always had a strong, respectful relationship with my folks.  It's gotten to the point now where, for over a year, she has refused to stay overnight in their house, claiming it's not safe for her despite the fact that I have a ten-year old son (from a previous marriage) and an infant daughter by her.  Wishing to prove that I'm on her side, trying to validate her perspective, I've gone along with her wishes and have only scheduled day visits to their home 3 hours away, but as you might guess, that really limits our interaction with them.  As a result, we make the trip to see them once every few months while they have to come to us if they want any interaction with us.  They are getting older - in their 70s - and the trips are getting harder for them.  We are all becoming more estranged from one another which I absolutely do not want, especially where my kids' relationship with my parents is concerned.  They are good people and have truly tried to support us while at the same time falling more and more into confusion over the many ways they seem to offend her. 

So, I'm trying to now say, "this estrangement isn't working for me" and I'm going to accept an invitation by my folks to come down there this Friday night with my son at least (my wife won't allow me to take our daughter) and spend the better part of Saturday with them before coming home.  I've tried to lovingly convey that I really would like it if we all went down together as a family but she's made it clear she will not and I've responded to that with "That's fine.  You don't have to come if you're not comfortable."  (In hindsight, I wish I had simply said, "I understand." 

She's really upset about my declaration.  I am being told that "she can't trust me anymore, we had agreed that I wouldn't seek to visit them more than once per 3 months, she does all things for me including caring for my son but I can't be bothered to do anything for her, I'm selfish, etc."  She insisted that I come up with a plan for my son's care this summer while he is with us and I'm at work because it's "not fair that I insist that she provide care for him this summer if I refuse to meet her needs where my parents are concerned this weekend."  I went ahead and did that as I felt she demanded my plan as a way to scare me into not going, threatening to remove her love and support of my son.

I feel really conflicted in all this.  On one hand, I don't want my parents to be ostracized from my family.  They don't deserve that.  Nor do my wife and kids.  I also want my wife to know that I love her and that she can trust me.  But I'm also upset that she would try to use the care of my son as leverage.  It's very disheartening.

[Kalidjah]

My uBPD spouse has identified my parents as "enemies," and has felt this way since they first met six years ago.  If we interact with them, it's pretty much now only on her terms.  As a result, our relationship with them has never been allowed to mature along healthy, loving lines which has been really tough for me as I always had a strong, respectful relationship with my folks.  It's gotten to the point now where, for over a year, she has refused to stay overnight in their house, claiming it's not safe for her despite the fact that I have a ten-year old son (from a previous marriage) and an infant daughter by her.  Wishing to prove that I'm on her side, trying to validate her perspective, I've gone along with her wishes and have only scheduled day visits to their home 3 hours away, but as you might guess, that really limits our interaction with them.  As a result, we make the trip to see them once every few months while they have to come to us if they want any interaction with us.  They are getting older - in their 70s - and the trips are getting harder for them.  We are all becoming more estranged from one another which I absolutely do not want, especially where my kids' relationship with my parents is concerned.  They are good people and have truly tried to support us while at the same time falling more and more into confusion over the many ways they seem to offend her. 

So, I'm trying to now say, "this estrangement isn't working for me" and I'm going to accept an invitation by my folks to come down there this Friday night with my son at least (my wife won't allow me to take our daughter) and spend the better part of Saturday with them before coming home.  I've tried to lovingly convey that I really would like it if we all went down together as a family but she's made it clear she will not and I've responded to that with "That's fine.  You don't have to come if you're not comfortable."  (In hindsight, I wish I had simply said, "I understand." 

She's really upset about my declaration.  I am being told that "she can't trust me anymore, we had agreed that I wouldn't seek to visit them more than once per 3 months, she does all things for me including caring for my son but I can't be bothered to do anything for her, I'm selfish, etc."  She insisted that I come up with a plan for my son's care this summer while he is with us and I'm at work because it's "not fair that I insist that she provide care for him this summer if I refuse to meet her needs where my parents are concerned this weekend."  I went ahead and did that as I felt she demanded my plan as a way to scare me into not going, threatening to remove her love and support of my son.

I feel really conflicted in all this.  On one hand, I don't want my parents to be ostracized from my family.  They don't deserve that.  Nor do my wife and kids.  I also want my wife to know that I love her and that she can trust me.  But I'm also upset that she would try to use the care of my son as leverage.  It's very disheartening.

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[goldylamont]

really sorry you are going through this. my ex was also very against my family, and also accused me of not liking hers one minute or saying that i was conspiring against her with them the next. it really is a hard place to be in. my thoughts are...

I feel really conflicted in all this.  On one hand, I don't want my parents to be ostracized from my family.  They don't deserve that.

this is something you can control. you can visit them, although you definitely will have hell to pay from your wife. but time with your aging parents can never be replaced. years down the line, if you have regrets about not spending enough time with your parents your wife may not have the capacity to own up to her role in this. i think it best to start to learn how to rekindle your family bond while sidestepping as many issues with your SO as possible. i believe this has to do with your own personal boundaries and priorities about what you are willing to sacrifice. i'm sure others can share some good ways to set some strong personal boundaries in the way of least conflict. however because your wife is already using your son as leverage it may not be about avoiding a conflict, but managing it as gracefully as possible (while seeing your parents on your own terms).

I also want my wife to know that I love her and that she can trust me.  But I'm also upset that she would try to use the care of my son as leverage.

this, i feel is completely out of your control. even if you are understanding and compassionate she may not trust you at times or feel loved. you sound experienced in navigating this landscape to make the best of it though. but this isn't something you can do anything about (her actions). i'm thinking Kalidjah that it may be good to put your energies into thinking of creative ways to be firm but respectful to see your parents while being ready for any fallout from your partner. understandably this is a hard position for anyone to be in.

[Littleleft]

Do you know why she feels that they are enemies? I mean the real issue under all the BPD front? As let's face it, what they may say is the problem usually actually isn't!  I'm just thinking that maybe if you knew what the problem was that made her feel that way, that you could try to work on that - as an aside to you seeing your family when you want to, because as goldylamont has said, you don't want to have any regrets about that in the future.

My pwBPD also has problems with my family.  It's one of the frequent topics that comes up during his rages.  I did think that it was just because saying things about them hurts me and he wants to say anything to hurt me, but since I've been learning about BPD from this website, I'm now thinking it's more to do with fear of abandonment for him.  My parents and sister live in another country and I think that for a long time he's been thinking ill up and leave to go and live with them, but it comes out in him verbally attacking them to me,,saying all kinds of nasty things about them, which is horrible.  He always says I put them first before him, I could never understand that as if I was doing that I would have just dumped him and gone with them when they moved abroad years ago, but I see now that it's because his perception is that I'm going to leave him and go to live with them (I think!).  Even though we've been together 12 years and my family have lived abroad 9 years.

This is a very new realisation for me, and so I'm going to try to work on it by validating his feelings when it comes up and not trying to defend (or any JADEing) them when he does it in the future, as I now realise that is futile as well.

I'm sorry you we going through this, as I know how heart wrenching it is to have this problem between some of the people you love most in the world.  I hope things get easier for you 

[WhatJustHappened]

GO SEE YOUR PARENTS! easier said than done, I know, My gf is BPD and controls every aspect of my life.  but you only have ONE mom & dad.  As someone who has lost a parent and has another with terminal cancer, go see them! You'll regret not spending time with them all because your partner is acting like a selfish twit.

Good luck! to us all! 

[Kalidjah]

my ex was also very against my family, and also accused me of not liking hers one minute or saying that i was conspiring against her with them the next... .

Yeah.  I'm familiar with that one!

I really appreciate the affirmation to get together with my folks and not just on her terms.

The reason my folks are enemies is because they cautioned me about getting heavily involved in a relationship when I did (my first wife had just left me - yeah, it was not fair for me to do that - not to me, my son or to my current wife.)  They expressed that she seemed like a great gal, but they were really concerned with how quickly it moved along.  She has never forgotten that and is convinced they hate her.  Of course, she does things to drive them away so it's hard on them to keep their cool.  I've steered them to this site which, I hope, helps.  We dated exclusively - pretty much lived together - for four years after that until we got married.  And they were very tumultuous years.  I kept thinking things would change once I "got my act together," wrapped up my divorce, etc.  Admittedly, my marriage proposal was pretty lame because I had been seeing signs of the BPD, and so came across as unsure.  I've yet to live that down and foster the trust she needs, even though I've tried to prove my commitment by agreeing to buy a house with her, take her on the trip of her dreams and - yes - have a child with her.  A beautiful little girl.  (I'm a piece of work, I know.  I knew about the importance of boundaries, and had heard of BPD, but did not want to believe she had it because, if that's what it was, I would probably be powerless to do anything about it and I already had me and my awesome son involved.  My denial and inability to really stand up for myself made a mess of things.)  But I've committed to her and our children.  I'm not ready to just slam the book on this, but I'm also not going to lose my parents either.  

Thanks for the opp to vent.

[an0ught]

This b&w painting can be quite disruptive and isolating. It is good to see that you don't allow this to happen, this is an important boundary . She does not have to like your parents and it is ok to validate for you that she has a very different view, does not like them, finds them odd, ... . And don't be surprised if she suddenly likes one or chats perfectly happy with them when being f2f.

[Kalidjah]

There IS a lot of B&W painting.  (Last night, the quote of the night was "Your parents just aren't nice people."  I know that to be untrue.  They are kind and gentle and have always been so my whole life.)  She said last night that my choosing to go down and visit them without her (remember, I asked her to please come and she refused) is a clear indication that I do not wish to be her partner and work together with her as her husband.  She said if I go down, she will NEVER try to have a good relationship with my parents and that's on me.  It's this sort of tactic which has motivated me to back down from demanding more for myself and my family in the past.  It makes me so angry and resentful inside which only hurts us, but even so, I am so sad right now because I feel like this decision on my part will doom our marriage.  I'm scared that this is the beginning of the end.  But it's such an unhealthy pattern!  We only get along and peace remains in our household as long as I do everything exactly as she wants it.  But then deep inside, I am so resentful of her and hate myself for not being an equal, interdependent partner and sticking up for myself.  This really sucks.

[waverider]

There IS a lot of B&W painting.  (Last night, the quote of the night was "Your parents just aren't nice people."  I know that to be untrue.  They are kind and gentle and have always been so my whole life.)  She said last night that my choosing to go down and visit them without her (remember, I asked her to please come and she refused) is a clear indication that I do not wish to be her partner and work together with her as her husband.  She said if I go down, she will NEVER try to have a good relationship with my parents and that's on me.  It's this sort of tactic which has motivated me to back down from demanding more for myself and my family in the past.  It makes me so angry and resentful inside which only hurts us, but even so, I am so sad right now because I feel like this decision on my part will doom our marriage.  I'm scared that this is the beginning of the end.  But it's such an unhealthy pattern!  We only get along and peace remains in our household as long as I do everything exactly as she wants it.  But then deep inside, I am so resentful of her and hate myself for not being an equal, interdependent partner and sticking up for myself.  This really sucks.

She uses this tactic, because it works. The irony is that as long as you do as she tells you she will probably never truly respect you (as far as a pwBPD can). The less respect you have the harder it is to turn it around. You are living in a quagmire of resentment on your behalf and contempt on hers.

If you want this RS to survive you will have to face down the fire at some stage. pwBPD are always threatening a nuclear holocaust  in reprisal for defiance. Dont argue it, just do what you feel is right.

By the way dont say you "understand" because you don't and she knows it, and will find it invalidating that you are making out you do. Say you can "accept" that is her stance.

[GaGrl]

So is this current situation with the visit to your parents the primary issue causing stress in the marriage, or is this just what is happening this week and symptomatic of other issues that arise?

[HopefulDad]

Just go see them.  Your wife has a PD and is going to rant and rave no matter what.  And yes, she may up the ante if you go see them.  She will always test your resolve because her threats, guilt trips, tantrums, etc. have kept you in the FOG and she knows it.

[Kalidjah]

There IS a lot of B&W painting.  (Last night, the quote of the night was "Your parents just aren't nice people."  I know that to be untrue.  They are kind and gentle and have always been so my whole life.)  She said last night that my choosing to go down and visit them without her (remember, I asked her to please come and she refused) is a clear indication that I do not wish to be her partner and work together with her as her husband.  She said if I go down, she will NEVER try to have a good relationship with my parents and that's on me.  It's this sort of tactic which has motivated me to back down from demanding more for myself and my family in the past.  It makes me so angry and resentful inside which only hurts us, but even so, I am so sad right now because I feel like this decision on my part will doom our marriage.  I'm scared that this is the beginning of the end.  But it's such an unhealthy pattern!  We only get along and peace remains in our household as long as I do everything exactly as she wants it.  But then deep inside, I am so resentful of her and hate myself for not being an equal, interdependent partner and sticking up for myself.  This really sucks.

You are living in a quagmire of resentment on your behalf and contempt on hers.

Yes!  I have described it exactly like that before!  Her contempt of me is very obvious and I "accept" that I have allowed that to happen.  (Thanks for the advice on using "accept" instead of "understand."  I'll try that out.

[Lilibeth]

Kalidjah, our parents are important. So is peace in the home. Balancing is the difficult thing, when the spouse does not want to have to do anything with your parents. May i share my experience with you? maybe you can take away something from there. My mother-in-law has played ducks and drakes with my H's and my feelings. So that he would not get angry or resent what i was feeling (and he knew i was hurting), i was being extra nice to her. My mother-in-law became worse after my mother passed on. She was actually playing a double game - in front of my H and behind his back. I can take a lot, but there comes a breaking point. That happened, and i told my H that i would not visit his mother. Of course he baits me with that, but i realized that if i just stuck out his nastiness and hurtful behaviour and did not cave in (initially it was extremely difficult but has got easier now), he actually started respecting my wishes about not going over. With time, she too has accepted the fact that i will just not either take her calls, or visit her or talk with her. Believe me, this is not easy, but once it happens, then there is peace - you really don't need to think about anything further than that... . don't think of ramifications, cos you will only get entangled in it, Kalidjah. Most of the time BPDs are not even sure of what they are saying or what they mean... . i'm learning more and more, not to take anything - anything - that my H says seriously. And it is helping.

For you, it's the other way around - your spouse is being nasty and unreasonable about your visiting your parents. Do work towards not accepting what she is saying. You want to go visit them, just do that. Maybe you could mention it in passing that you will be taking your son and spending the weekend with them. Just be pleasant and conversational (difficult i know). She will react, but you have to be strong to let her vituperation just wash over you, for she will really not do anything beyond that... . This is not easy, but it is do-able. I did not want to go, and i worked towards that. You want to go, and you will be able to work towards that, believe me. You will find your own way of going about what works best for you. She will send out barbs at you. Never mind. Kalidjah, just work towards not letting her words get to you. They are only words and can be made to flow over (this wisdom has come after months of battling - and i'm still trying to internalize it - so you see, you are not alone). Of course what she says is going to hurt, but work towards pushing them out - and you will see two things - one, you won't care and two, she will gradually learn to respect you. And don't futurize. Just work on one visit at a time. Just one at a time.

Waverider has summed it up so well -  

The irony is that as long as you do as she tells you she will probably never truly respect you (as far as a pwBPD can). The less respect you have the harder it is to turn it around. You are living in a quagmire of resentment on your behalf and contempt on hers.

Resentment not only kills peace of mind, but it does not give any answers, Kalidjah. You cannot allow her to damage your peace of mind... . that is YOURS. You do want to respect yourself. Take it from someone who has only started on this road of building up self-respect from these boards. You can control your resentment - very difficult to do, but it is do-able, believe me, and your respect for yourself too will go up. First concentrate only on this - the rest will fall into place, and you will be able to deal with it.

[WhatJustHappened]

Just go see them.  Your wife has a PD and is going to rant and rave no matter what.  And yes, she may up the ante if you go see them.  She will always test your resolve because her threats, guilt trips, tantrums, etc. have kept you in the FOG and she knows it.

EXACTLY, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't so might as well go see them, she'll rant regardless.

IMHO.