I am not good enough anymore.

[arnie48]

 After having been told for years that I can't do anything up to my wife's lofty standards, I have convinced myself that I really am not good enough to be in a relationship with her or anyone else for that matter. She keeps taking chores away from me and hiring it done. The latest bone of contention is the yardwork. I had foot surgery in April and am still a week or so away from being able to do this work again but she now has decided that I do a crappy job of it and she will hire someone to do it. She already did this at a rental property we own. I am constantly being compared to her father, her sons, her brother, any other male in her life and always come up short. Yes, the grass is very long but if I were to try mowing it, I could do a lot of damage to my repaired foot and she knows that. I would never have let it get that long had I been able to take care of it. This is just one of many, many things that I have suddenly been unable to do correctly.

Maybe I am one of those persons who should be alone. I don't know. I do know that living like this is becoming more of a burden than I can deal with. I live in constant fear that she will find something wrong somewhere and assume it was my fault and the yelling and blaming begins anew. I know she no longer respects me because she has told me this numerous times. As to whether or not she still loves me, I don't know. I find it hard to believe that she does given how she treats me.

I am not asking for advice here, just venting a bit. I don't know what I want to do - stay or go. If I go, I lose everything. If I stay, it will likely just be more of the same and get worse. Not a lot of good choices here.  :'(

[Littleleft]

I'm sorry to hear you're having such a rough time arnie48 and that it's really getting you down.

My SO does this to me too - my standard of house work is never good enough for him, yet at times he prevents me from doing any by raging and causing me to have to leave it and often leave the house to get away for it. He always compares it to his mum, saying how can she do such a great job at it and I can't.  He also hardly ever contributes, so I find that hard to take that he constantly criticises me in this way, but doesn't help even though he's perfectly capable.

All the criticising really makes you doubt yourself doesn't it? I'm finding that too, I'm finding it difficult to know what of what he's says is true about me and what isn't.

I'm finding that coming on this site and both reading and posting are helping me.  It reminds me that a lot of what my other half with BPD says is not true and is down to his own bad feelings and nothing at all to do with me.

Have you read about FOG on here? Sounds like we're both experiencing it in huge amounts.

I'm sure it's not the case that you're a kind of person who should be alone.  It's really difficult living with a pwBPD and it seems to be taking its toll on you, that's why you're feeling that way.

Do you still love her?  I know that I'm doubting my feelings for my pwBPD now, because he's just been so nasty to me on so many occasions, it's like I've shut down those feelings so as to not get hurt quite so much.  I am starting to think that it's all gone too far now though, and I could never feel that way again about someone who has repeatedly been emotionally and verbally abusive.

Be good to yourself. Make sure you do some things make help you relax and make you feel good.  Don't let her chip away at everything good in your life.  If you're worried that you'd have nothing if you left, and that's something you think may need to happen in the future, start building those things if you can, like friends, hobbies, money etc.

Take care 

[arnie48]

The funny thing is that I do still love her. When she is with others or members of her family, she shows signs of the big heart that I fell in love with originally. Some of the problems we now have I know I brought on myself. She is a workaholic and I am not. I have never had the desire or the energy to work 14-18 hours a day, seven days a week like she did. She still works a lot of hours and likely always will. The thing is, I would do a lot more around the house if she hadn't taken all those tasks away from me. At one time I did the laundry, the dishes, some of the cleaning, the yardwork, washing the cars and other things. Now, only washing the cars remains and I suspect she'll find fault with how I do that this year and hire that done as well. A lot of guys probably wish they could hire out all these chores but I am not one of them. I enjoy yard work but I am not a professional landscaper and she expects me to be that skilled at it.

As to being good to myself, I do allow myself time to read, which is one of my favorite activities. Again, she criticizes this because, in her opinion, it is a waste of time and doesn't make money and I am not getting exercise by doing it. I refuse to stop reading though, even if it causes more arguments.

Thanks for the kind words and support. This is why I like this forum.

[everprincess]

I know how you feel. No matter what I do it isn't the "right" thing. I can't even clean a cat box right. It isn't you, or me, it is them. I could be perfect and it still won't be enough. I've accepted that I can't please my DH and you know what I don't have to. If a person can't accept themselves or love themselves they can't love/accept another person. I thought for years if I change myself do things better it will change. Well I've changed and he hasn't so that myth is not the truth. The truth is he has a problem and I'm not the cause of it. I can't control his BPD by trying to be perfect.

[arnie48]

I have gradually come to this same conclusion - that I cannot change her. I find my best defense is to simply let her rant and not try to argue back because that never accomplishes a thing other than to simply add fuel to the fire. Lately it has gotten harder to do this though. I keep thinking I can muddle through but then there are times when I feel like I am going to blow and that would be disastrous. Other times I tell myself I should simply cut my losses and walk away but, as I said earlier, I would lose everything and at my age (65), it would be next to impossible to regain it. Do I want to live in poverty the rest of my life? I'm not sure I do.

[Perdita]

I am constantly being compared to her father, her sons, her brother, any other male in her life and always come up short. Yes, the grass is very long but if I were to try mowing it, I could do a lot of damage to my repaired foot and she knows that.

BP's always seem to think the grass is greener on the other side... .     It's not you, it's her.  She is determined to find fault with all you do which means no matter how well you do something you will fail in her eyes.  I wonder what will happen if you were to gradually start finding fault with everything she does?  Pity you can't video record her when she's like this.  I bet you she has no idea what she sounds like when she is constantly putting you down.  Sounds like she's real hard on herself too.  I think when someone tries this hard to be this perfect then it is a sign of huge insecurities.  I wonder what her internal dialogue is? 

[everprincess]

When DH has a meltdown I can't get near him or say anything. It only fuels a fire that is in the progress that turns into a inferno. This is when he runs away like he did last week and admits himself into the hospital because I won't play into his meltdown. I refused. Instead I took of our son because he is more important than anything else. I'm learning that I must set boundaries for myself and this is one of them. He can have the meltdown but I won't subject me or our son to it. If he wants to run away then that is his choice.

[Littleleft]

You're right that there is no point in defending (or any JADEing) but you don't have to stand there and take it either.  Have you tried to enforce some boundaries when she gets all critical of you by telling her you don't want to take part in that kind of one way conversation and then maybe take a walk or something to get away from her for a while?  I know it's not easy. I'm trying to do some boundary setting at the moment with my SO/pwBPD, It's difficult, and at times even worse than normal, but it should make things better and I think I'm seeing a slight glimpse of that!

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi Arnie48,

I was married to my BPDw for a few years over a decade.  Nobody did anything right.  She would have these manic fits of housecleaning where she would literally throw our kids toys at them or smash them on the floor because she was so angry that none of us got with the program and understood how much stress we caused her simply by "living" in our house.  These manic cycles were offset by complete retreat from the family, living in a self-absorbed, sometimes "depressed" state, where she would stay in her bedroom

It did not matter how many times I tried to explain to her that when you have a family with little kids it is impossible to keep it clean all the time.  You clean, and 5 minutes later it is messy again.  That is normal.  But this was never acceptable to her.  She would even threaten us, ":)o you want mommy to freak out again?  If not, then you better do... . "

All of us, over time, began to doubt our own sanity.  Were we all wrong?  Were we really such bad people?  Were we the reason she acted this way?  The truth is of course not.

When I first was getting to know her, the relationship went sexual almost immediately.  Everything moved very quickly with great intensity.  She loved me so much.  I was everything she ever wanted.  I was like a hero to her.  The only thing she needed to know was if I was going to satisfy her sexual appetite.  And I did... . at first, though I was a virgin.

After knowing her for a mere 7 or 8 months, we got married, and I moved her and her son in with me.  Within a very short time, things started to change.  It was a new area for her, but she was extremely needy.  It made me feel good to be needed that much, but the flipside was that the expectations were also severely high.  The pressure started to get to me, and coupled with other strange and extreme behaviors and the stress of being a new husband and father who was working full-time while finishing a graduate degree, I started to feel anxious around her, especially during sex.  This hindered my performance, which led her to verbally and even physically assault me -telling me awful things and comparing me to "all the other guys" she had ever been with.  I was, as a virgin, destroyed by this.  And I spent the next decade constantly trying to overcome my alleged sexual dysfunction, whatever it was that made me so "pathetic" sexually.

My sex drive dropped to almost nothing, and I felt like a terrified deer in headlights whenever we had sex, terrified that I wasn't going to give her an orgasm (which, of course, pretty much ensured that I didn't).  At times I gutted it up and faced my fears and found ways to please her, which she seemed happy about, but while still blaming me like, "It took you long enough to man up!"  Keep in mind that she had affairs and threatened to leave me about every 2 years.  That was the approximate time-frame of the "cycle."  I would ramp it up, endure the anguish of the affair and tell her that I still wanted her, and eventually she would come back.

There's oodles more I have left out, but I included these details to show you that I feel for your situation and know what you are going through.  I lived for years in the fog.  I believed I sucked sexually.  I believed I was not a man (of course, she told me that).  I believed no woman would ever want me (she told me that, too).  I believed I was pathetic and insecure (and of course, I was... . largely because, regardless of whatever issues I had before I met her, I was with someone who constanty was throwing me off and telling me I was not enough.  My life felt like I was running on a treadmill at all times, like I was taking a test in school and the teacher (her) was standing right next to my desk, tapping her foot with contempt, waiting to see if I will finally "get it right."

But do you know what I realized after I finally got help for myself, broke away from her, and began seeing things more clearly?  I realized that I am a rock for my kids.  I am their stability.  I have tremendous strength to survive what I've lived through without blowing my brains out.  I am a great cook.  I am a good lover (with someone I *trust* with who I am).  I am a good man.  I am compassionate and intelligent, and a good woman would be lucky to have me (I'm single, ladies... . haha).  I am not flawless -nobody is- but I am not the pathetic disappointment she thinks I am.  I am a man who has come a long, long way, a vast distance, and still sometime see remnants of her "hand" infecting my mind, infiltrating my thoughts, and telling me that I'm not enough.

After we divorced, I started dating someone else for a short time.  This, I believe, is what provoked my ex to come to me with the idea of reconciling.  She agreed to go to therapy, and I actually bought it.  I said goodbye to the girl I was seeing and got back with her.  And the same thing happened.  It was wonderful at first and extremely sexual and moved very fast.  And within two months she invited herself to move back in with me.  And then it was like a switch flipped.  Suddenly everything revolved around her, again.  And when I expected mutual participation, I was blamed for being "too focused" on her.  She wanted everything her way, on her time, on her terms, and we were all expected to do it.  If I wasn't there to fetch her toast and bring it to her in bed (and sometimes I didn't want to) she would recruit our teenage child.  She racked up thousands in debt in mere months.  And she started being "friends" again with the last person she had the affair with. 

I snapped.  I finally told her "no more," which prompted her to give me a 45 minutes speach telling me how I became "insecure" again and disappointed her all over again, especially in the bedroom.  Now, I don't know about you, but I do not know how to approach a person who is like a set bear-trap, waiting for you to approach in "the right way" at all times, or else.  I was shellshocked all over again.  I blew it.  But then I found out she was fooling around with this other guy again and also an 18 year old friend of our son.  That was it.  No more.  I told her no... . we aren't going to be "just friends."  She needed to get out.

See, thought I got duped again, I was not the same person I was before.  I had been getting therapy for a few years, and I'm still seeing the guy (he specializes in ISTDP, which I *highly* recommend for any of us on this board).  I learned about myself, and I learned to listen to my perceptions and emotions.  They don't tend to lie -though she does.

Hence, I also realized that my BPDew is an invalidator to the extreme.  Nobody is allowed to feel too good about themselves around her, especially not me.  I was the scapegoat for all of her inner conflict and self-loathing.  I was the ultimate pack-mule for all of her insecurities and garbage, so that she could unload it onto me and feel good about herself.  My issues and flaws, which all of us have, were nothing more than a convenient excuse for her to blame me.  I mean really, if you want to blame all of your terrible behavior on someone else's flaws (some of which you produce or exacerbate in them by your abusive behavior), how hard is that to do?  Not hard at all because everybody has them.

I can't tell you to stay or go.  That has to be *your* choice, your resolve, or it will never stick.  All I know is that you do need to make a decision.  You need to resolve to change something for yourself, or this is going to kill you.  You are going to wake up one day and wish you were dead and have no idea who you are, like I did for many, many years.  You may already be there.  And the other thing I know is that it is VERY difficult to see things clearly when you are living that closely with them.  You really need to get out.  Your life (maybe not physically, but certainly emotionally) is literally at stake.

Here's the thing... . from being in this situation for so long, you've been brainwashed.  You don't even know who you are.  All you know is who she says you are.  I know how it is.  You parrot everything she says -not only to yourself but to others.  Time to make a change, my friend.  You *can*.  Decide to not live like this any more.  If you have kids, I know that weighs into it, but they need at least ONE well person. 

[Leap]

Arnie, try not to let it get you down.  I have been married to my BPD wife for almost 11 years.  We are taking a break from each other at the moment, physically separated, but not legally.  I am in the undecided stage because I love my wife and have empathy for her.  I also know that I am good enough, even if she doesn't think so sometimes.  I ask myself have I done enough or if I did things differently would this be different.  The honest answer is I don't know.  I do know through educating myself about this illness that her issues are her issues.  My issues are my issues.  The only thing I can do is work on me.  I cannot fix her, she has to do that for herself.  I can support her, but not fix her.  The question I am asking myself is is there still hope.  I don't know what your situation is but my advice to you would to try to look at yourself in as honest a way as you can.  In aa it is called taking a personal inventory.  I know that all of our issues are not all her fault.  I am also coming to understand that her issues are her issues and if she is going to move forward she has to address her issues.  If she is not willing to do that then I have to look at myself and determine where I go from there.  One of the reasons I am undecided is that she knows she is BPD (she was diagnosed at 16 and again at 26).  I also know that she is capable of healing and recovering (she did it with her drug addiction).  The problem right now is there are issues both within and outside her control and they have become so overwhelming to her that I think she has given up for now.  It's like a hoarder who knows they are a hoarder and doesn't want to be a hoarder but is so overwhelmed by the hoarding they don't know where to start to overcome it.  I know she has had a lot of trauma in her life, some through her own actions and some not.  What I am hoping for is she will see, like she did with the drugs, that it can be overcome if she wants it too.  The thing is, right now, she doesn't want it bad enough.  I have come to view her BPD similarly to addiction and I know from personal experience that unless she wants recovery from this for her, it is probably a lost cause.  I was told, at the time she was re-diagnosed at 26, that sometimes they mellow with age.  She has to an extent, but the issues going on right now have put her in a kind of relapse.  She is visiting old behaviors, I think, because they are what she knows and this gives her a sort of comfort, as odd as that sounds.  I also have come to realize what a serious illness this is.  I know that I have never cheated on her; i know that I am not gay; I know that it is not all my fault; I know she is ill.  The problem is that in her mind these things are so.  They have to be because, if they aren't, then she has to face some of the things she don't want to face.  The fear and misery she has is palpable.  When she feels it, she is overwhelmed by it and when she is overwhelmed by it, she strikes out.  Knowing this makes it a little easier to deal with but there will come a day when I have to ask myself, is this enough for me.  Only you will know when you have had enough.  I think each person is different.  I have been commended by those who know about BPD for staying in this so long.  They have told me I must really love my family to make it this far.  But commendations are not what I am after.  What I am after is happiness in my life.  If that doesn't include her, then so be it.  I would like it to but it may not be possible.  I have been working on accepting this.  Educating myself about this illness has helped.  You may want to try it if you haven't already.  This site has a lot of good resources to aid you in this.  There are also some good books out there that might help too (kill two birds with one stone).  I know how you feel because I am there myself.  Just remember, you are not alone and it can and will get better.  Love, Faith and Hope.

[arnie48]

A lot of good advice here. Thanks to all. There has been another wrinkle added to the picture just today. She informed me that he objective now is to become totally independent of me and any part of my life. She is going to have her own social life and not include me in anything she does - and she has "allowed" me the same freedom. Then, as if that weren't enough, she informed me that she thought I should pay her $1000 a month for "room and board." She didn't tell me to leave, but she doesn't give any reason to stay. For me, this is the straw that will finally break the camel's back. I may not be much, but I still have enough self-respect not to pay my wife rent to live in my own house. If it comes to that, I am gone.

All of these things are based on her assumptions about how I feel and what I think. She has never bothered to discuss with me my thoughts and feelings, yet she knows all there is to know about them. If I try to tell her she is wrong about this, she refuses to listen. It would appear that a tipping point has been reached.

[Littleleft]

Do you have friends or family you could go to stay with?  Maybe it's a good idea to talk to someone like that about how things are, just incase you do need somewhere else to stay soon.  I know it's not very nice at all to have to consider, but it seems like it would be a good idea to start making some plans to look after yourself.

I'm so sorry things are so difficult for you. 

You say 'I may not be much' but I'm sure that's not the case, that's how she's made you feel, but that doesn't mean that's the truth. 

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi Arnie,

Sorry, man.  I went through the same thing -where she insisted on completely separate social lives and such.  It sucked.  That is not how a healthy relationship is, and you know it.  I'm sorry.  Been there.  And yes, we were essentially roomates, except that she would call me down in the middle of the night to have sex with her (I slept in a separate room, too, because she was uncomfortable having me in the bed with her and couldn't sleep well).

I wish I could tell you that it will get better, but it won't so long as you live under that regime.  This isn't anything to play around with.  I remember how I would get angry and psyche myself up to finally "stand up" to her.  Such silly little games I would play.  I would get mad, and I would say "no more", but I would never do anything about it.  So, I'd feel like a big man for two seconds, for insisting on my own self-resepect, while my balls were still in her purse.   It was a joke. 

I hope, for your sake, that you have reached your tipping point -and not out of a temporary sense of anger but out of a clear resolve and perception about what is going on and what it means for your relationship and the rest of your life.

[Leap]

The separate social lives must be catching because my BPDw did the same thing.  She said she felt like we were roommates so therefore we must be roommates so she moved to the other room.  She said we are now in an open marriage, so she found another man (her ex husband who she hasn't seen in 14 years).  I think the roommate thing was a justification for the ex husband thing.  She told me about her infidelity to me but didn't do it with malice or a smile on her face but with a look  of shame and self loathing and then looked at the floor.  Of course, initially, I was pissed because this guy was, is and will probably always be a dirt bag (3 time convicted felon).  After my initial anger subsided I asked her why him.  I mean, if you're going to cheat or leave me for another man, at least do it with something worth doing it with, not this scumbag.  She looked up from the floor, looked me right in my eye and said she did it with him because that was what she deserved, that was what she was worth.  This relationship continued for a couple of weeks and has now ended, as I knew it would.  How did I know.  Because she told both him and me it would.  He of course moved in, stayed about a week and then moved out.  The minute he moved in she began picking him apart and talking to me with regards to him in I'm sure the same way that she talked to him with regards to me (negative comments; he's not doing anything he said he would; he lied to me; he's an ass, etc., etc., etc.  She even approached me for sex on several occasions after he moved in and said he "didn't have to know, it will just be between you and me".  She tells me she wants a divorce one minute and two hours later asks me if I am going to divorce her, she hopes not because she doesn't want a divorce.  When he moved out she texted me the following one after the other:

Well he left me

I came home and his car was packed

I'm crying and sad, feeling totally unloved and unappreciated

I hate myself

I ___ up everything

I am a horrible person, mother, wife

I can have compassion for her, even though she has cheated on me and I have moved out because the above statements are her truth.  It pains me to see that she can be so honest and so deceptive at the same time.  I allowed this to play out without interfering and keeping my anger in check because, as I told her, what good would it do to become angry and hurt this guy (and my first instinct was to hurt him because I hurt).  But it is hurt, resentment and fear that have led both of us to the place we are now in our relationship.  She has been telling me for a long time to work on myself, that if I am not healthy and in a good space then how can I help our family.  I chose not to listen for a longtime and it took something like this to wake me up.  I checked out of our relationship awhile ago.  I denied I did this in hopes that things would get better.  They didn't but they did because I am no longer willing to enable.  I no longer want to be co-dependent.  I no longer want to fear her leaving as she fears I will.  I no longer want to make this disaster any worse.  So I have taken her advice.  I am trying to make positive change for myself.  My own issues have to be addressed again for me.  In my case, I am a recovering alcoholic who hasn't had a drop of alcohol to drink in over 12 years but have also not been sober for the last few years.  I forgot some things about myself that I need to always remember.  I got sidetracked by her issues, trying to fix her problems while mine grew and grew until we both now have the situation we have.  As I stated before, I have been educating myself on her BPD but also on my alcoholism.  WE share responsibility together for this disaster of our lives at this time.  Throw into this her two teenage children (my stepchildren, who I love as my own), one, a 15 yr old daughter who, is by all signs either DID or BPD (I am really not sure but she is going to mental health for a re-evaluation in a week to try to get a more accurate assessment of her needs both medication wise and therapy wise) and an almost 17 yr old son who is addicted to pot, drinking, experimenting with other drugs i.e. extasy, cocaine and meth, hanging with gangs, confused, angry and coping the best way he can with this mess.  Why do I dump this all here you might ask?  One, it feels good to vent, be honest with myself about my situation and see it for what it is.  2.  To let you know your situation can get worse if you let it.  3.  To hopefully allow you to see that you are not alone in a weird, unbelievable, screwed up, twilight zone situation that, for the moment, seems like it will never end (but it will, eventually one way or the other).  4.  To motivate you to ask yourself how you may have contributed to the issues in your relationship and how you can contribute to taking care of your end of it, "fixing it" so to speak, for you and therefore possibly contribute to helping your relationship recover.  You can't fix her, although I would venture to guess that if you could you would and you have probably tried and failed many times and then tried again and wondered what the heck, why can't I do right by her, nothing ever seems to work, no matter what I do, it's the wrong thing.  She may or may not tell you to leave but if and/or when you decide to, she probably will not be happy with your decision, even though she is giving you no reason to stay.  Paying her rent to live in your own house will probably not satisfy her.  Allowing you your own freedom, to become totally independent of her and her of you will probably not satisfy her.  My guess is no matter what you do to try to satisfy her, nothing will.  She probably doesn't know what she wants, even though she thinks she does so even if you had esp and could read her mind, you would be as confused as she most likely is.  The real kicker is, it doesn't seem that way, but the reality is, it is what it is.  Why?  Because she is BPD, she is mentally ill.  You can no more understand her than a non-alcoholic can understand an alcoholic.  We are what we are.  The best you can do is take care of you (I have been being told this a lot lately and it is true).  The more you try to understand that which you can't, the more frustrated, resentful, confused and angry you will become.  I don't know how much you love your wife.  I don't know if you are saying enough is enough, I can't take it anymore (I know it feels that way for sure).  I don't know your complete situation.  The only people are you and her, and it appears she ain't talkin for the time being so that leaves you.  The questions you have to ask yourself, such as why am I taking this, why am I staying, why do I want to be with a person like this, are tough, scary and difficult.  But these questions must be ask of yourself with complete honesty (which is no small task).  Once you can answer some of them, you will begin to see where to go and what to do.  It isn't a quick, easy, painless process.  But it must be done.  Whether she does this too is up to her, you can't control what she does, no matter how much you want to.  You can't change her, fix her or rescue her, no matter how much it needs to be done.  That is up to her and if she is not willing to do these things as you must be willing to do, then you have part of your answer already.  Just know you are not alone, you are not weak, you are not a "loser" for putting up to, what would seem like to those not in this type of relationship, a bunch a crap.  They don't understand, they are not in it.  Try not to make rash decisions out of anger or desperation.  Hang in there, things can and will get better which is what you must believe in order to survive this.  I hope I have not sounded too harsh or cold.  That is not my intention.  But reality check time is upon you (as it is myself and all the others here).  Good luck.  Faith, Hope, Love.

[Perdita]

She informed me that he objective now is to become totally independent of me and any part of my life. She is going to have her own social life and not include me in anything she does - and she has "allowed" me the same freedom.

The separate social lives must be catching because my BPDw did the same thing.  She said she felt like we were roommates so therefore we must be roommates so she moved to the other room.  She said we are now in an open marriage, so she found another man (her ex husband who she hasn't seen in 14 years).  I think the roommate thing was a justification for the ex husband thing.

I went through the same thing -where she insisted on completely separate social lives and such.  It sucked.  That is not how a healthy relationship is, and you know it.  I'm sorry.  Been there.  And yes, we were essentially roomates, except that she would call me down in the middle of the night to have sex with her (I slept in a separate room, too, because she was uncomfortable having me in the bed with her and couldn't sleep well).

These posts are really hitting home.  I woke up today thinking about how my BPbf never takes me along anymore to meet up with his friends and, some family members.  Then I caught up with this thread and oh boy! My gut has been telling me that there must be a reason why I have been seperated from his social life.  Sure, we still go out together quite a bit, but just the 2 of us.  At first I thought these friends don't want me around, but I realize that this can't be it as I know certain buddies of his really enjoy my company as much as I do theirs.  So it's not some kind of personality clash.  It is bf keeping me from his friends.  It is to the point were he won't even add one of his closest friends to his FB friend list (guy was off FB for a long time).  It would seem as though he tries hardest to keep me from the people that I get along with best.  Basically I only see his parents at this point.  No one else.  This surely is the beginning of something even worse to come ... .  

Can any of you remember if you were slowly removed from your BP's social life long before s/he actually informed you that they want seperate social lives?

Mathetes76, my bf has never allowed me to sleep in the same bed with him either.  He also says he is not comfortable having me there.  Basically I just get to visit for a while ... . then back to the other bed.

And she started being "friends" again with the last person she had the affair with.

But then I found out she was fooling around with this other guy again and also an 18 year old friend of our son.

Of course, initially, I was pissed because this guy was, is and will probably always be a dirt bag (3 time convicted felon).  After my initial anger subsided I asked her why him.  I mean, if you're going to cheat or leave me for another man, at least do it with something worth doing it with, not this scumbag.  She looked up from the floor, looked me right in my eye and said she did it with him because that was what she deserved, that was what she was worth.

She said we are now in an open marriage, so she found another man (her ex husband who she hasn't seen in 14 years).  I think the roommate thing was a justification for the ex husband thing.

Is this a commong thread with BP's to go back to old loves and to get involved with inappropiate new partners? I am certainly experiencing this with BPbf.  He is obsessed with a trashy girl although he keeps denying it and saying she is "like a sister".  Sorry but no man will put up with the kind of abuse he takes from this thing and keep coming back for more unless he is hoping for a sexual r/s with her. 

About a week ago I also discovered that he is also obsessed with his now married ex gf.  About 8 months ago he had me totally convinced that he really was over her (they broke up almost 4 years ago) and with real "concern" told me I need therapy for thinking he is still interested in her.  I fell for it... . I can't express how shocked I was when I recently checked his search history and saw that he goes to her FB page almost everyday (they haven't been FB friends in years)! I looked real deep into this and found that about 18 months after they broke up he started checking out her FB just about every day.  I figure it was around the time she unfriended him and stopped replying to his messages that he started checking her page.  So almost everyday for 2 years he has searched for her online!  Even though she is now married, I don't see this as meaning much as I know she has had affairs with married men in the past.  Therefore not exactly someone with a strong moral compass herself.

Leap I hear you about being upset that she left for a scumbag.  This is what makes the blow that much harder for me too.

Arnie, I echo what someone else wrote here: keep posting.  It will help you find some clarity.  It is definitely helping me see things more clearly.

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi Perdita,

The social makeup of our relationship was very strange over the years, for sure.  Was I removed from her social circles BEFORE she made it explicit?  Depends.  For her, the thing she didn't like was that her friends would get to know me and the normal/sane ones she has known for a long, long time would realize that she was full of crap.  They would see how she was treating me, and they became closer to me.  She felt like I would "steal" her friends.  Her belief is that a "true friend" will never leave and never take sides against you -they will basically indulge anything you do and tell you that you are right and laugh about it with you.

It was more about control... . isolate you, isolate people who can compete with her, who might not take her side on things.  And of course, I was treated as though I was a predator who "stole" her friends.  So, I was the one who could not be "trusted".

Ironically, when I caught her in one of her affairs, the one where she claimed the guy was "gay" for months and months, torturing me and telling me what a jerk I was for being upset that she was obsessively on the phone with the guy for 8 hours a day (no exaggeration), she finally "fessed up" about a ton of other things, too.  Apparently, she also had a phone-sex relationship with my best friend online.  He was a guy I talked to for something like 10 years.  We shared everything.  She blackmaled him and threatened that if he told me about what she was doing she would send his naked pictures and sexual texts to his wife.  When I confronted her on "stealing" my friend, she said with nonchalant confidence, "Ahh... . he wasn't really your friend.  He's nobody's friend."  Really?  I know someone else like that .

I spoke to him about it.  He apologized profusely.  He told me (paraphrase), "I know it is my fault and I did wrong by you, and I will never be able to make up for it.  But you've gotta know... . and I don't know how to put this... . but she really goes after it.  She puts it out there.  It's like she lures you in."  I told him, "Yes, I know.  How do you think I got into a relationship with her?"  I never spoke to him again after that.

[OutOfEgypt]

I can't stress enough how it really is about control... . they want you to be controlled so that you focus entirely on them and are wrapped up into them.  The ways this is done are so pervasive.  That is why it is good for us to all share our stories and see, "Wow, my ex did that too!"  Everything from affairs, constant put-downs, comparing you to other people, raging at you for never doing anything right, telling you what a controlling, insecure jerk you are every time you ever have a negative feeling toward them, judging and condemning every hesitation you have, telling you that you are weak, taking things away from you, like you are a child, wittholding, isolating you from others through blame, guilt, playing victim from others alleged "abuse' and expecting you to take their side, fishing for compliments, hating you but then running to you when they need something (so that you can be their "hero" again and live in the rush of that for a moment), etc.  Sex, destroying your self-esteem, making you doubt your perceptions and feelings, treating you so terribly that you become numb.  These are all the unconscious tools they use.  My ex would even put me down for being "too focused" on her, which she was simultaneously demanding with everything else she did.  Crazy-making!

I was told I am "not a man".  I'm "insecure".  I "take things too seriously".  I "don't really know how to love her".  "No woman would ever want" me.  I'm "not really on her side".  She'd compare me to past lovers, or even to present ones (like the guy she was cheating on me with).  Just absolutely cruel, soul breaking stuff.  And of course, it was offset with her being cute and sweet and appearing almost mildly supportive at other times.

They are so obsessed with themselves that they demand you be obsessed with them and controlled by them.  It doesn't matter how.  They know how to read what you want to hook you in.  They know how to attack your weak points to keep you subdued and in control.  It is pretty insidious.  

As far as isolation goes, I'm finally reconnected with SO many people who have stood silently on the oustide and observed over the years, people who I cut off, even "hated" for her, or just let communication drop off with.  Why?  Because my ex would always have a grudge with someone and always demand, even if not explicit, that I (and the rest of the family) join her in her opinion.  To cross her or to even show hesitation was tantamount to treason, which had very bad consequences... . guilt-tripping, replacement and rejection, rage, etc.

You get to the point where you feel so numb and become so brainwashed that, although you may kid yourself about wanting to be free of it, you don't really think you even deserve it.

Arnie:  In short... . it really is her and not you.  People told me that for years, and I didn't really believe it.  I still thought, "But I bet if I was a better man in these areas it would make a huge difference."  No, it wouldn't.  That's a lie.  This is your time to discover who you are and literally forget about everything she said you are (with her words or just with her actions), because it was all a lie to control you.  Hit the reset button.

[Perdita]

For her, the thing she didn't like was that her friends would get to know me and the normal/sane ones she has known for a long, long time would realize that she was full of crap.  They would see how she was treating me, and they became closer to me.

Thanks, OutofEgypt.  This makes a lot of sense indeed.  Shortly before Christmas one of his closest friends (the one who is back on FB but bf doesn't want to accept his friend request) told my bf in my presence that he doesn't like the trash girl ("like a sister" one) and that he would never waste his time with someone like her.  BF said nothing, just sat there.  I only saw that guy once since then and we had a good conversation when we were alone for a while.  I told bf, but didn't sharing the content of the conversation.  I guess his friend said the same and bf didn't like that he confided in me.

It was more about control... . isolate you, isolate people who can compete with her, who might not take her side on things.  And of course, I was treated as though I was a predator who "stole" her friends.  So, I was the one who could not be "trusted".

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head.  Thanks for your insight on this.

Ironically, when I caught her in one of her affairs, the one where she claimed the guy was "gay" for months and months, torturing me and telling me what a jerk I was for being upset that she was obsessively on the phone with the guy for 8 hours a day (no exaggeration), she finally "fessed up" about a ton of other things, too.

The thing that upsets me even more than the obsession with other people, is that they go so far as to make us feel that we are being the jerks and implying that we are crazy.  My bf likes to accuse me of "over analyzing" things < I know now that this means I am getting too close to the truth.

Apparently, she also had a phone-sex relationship with my best friend online.  He was a guy I talked to for something like 10 years.  We shared everything.  She blackmaled him and threatened that if he told me about what she was doing she would send his naked pictures and sexual texts to his wife.  When I confronted her on "stealing" my friend, she said with nonchalant confidence, "Ahh... . he wasn't really your friend.  He's nobody's friend."  Really?  I know someone else like that .

How sad that you lost a friend you were so close to and that she even blackmailed him.  Never ever let someone have nude pics of yourself.  I keep hearing horror stories like this. Did she ever tell his wife?

[OutOfEgypt]

I keep hearing horror stories like this. Did she ever tell his wife?

Not that I know of.  What I realized she was really doing when she confessed all of that was both feeling for information and trying to manipulate me into "waiting" for her.  She wanted to know how I found out (I actually hacked her email), because she probably was ready to deliver on her threat to my ex friend if I told her that he told me.  And she wanted me to wait because she "wasn't sure if I was the love of her life, but she just had to pursue this with the other man to see."  So, like a dope I waited... . for months while she told me we were "Separated" (which means... . she gets to go screw this guy 1,000 times a week, acting like she's a flirty teenager, and then come home to me and pretend we are friends).  Pretty disturbing stuff.

Yes, my wife constantly accused me of overanalyzing things, too.  (she still does, even though I'm so far past that).  Of course, there is a half-truth to some of it.  We do tend to over-analyze and obsess and ruminate.  But you know what's awful?  It is awful how it is their cruel and manipulative behavior that feeds and even creates it.  Obsessing and rumination is a hallmark of deeply painful feelings we are unconsciously numbing ourselves out to.  The trauma of living under this treatment tends to numb us, but we are also living with a person who is constantly invalidating our very real perceptions and feelings, telling us we are wrong, bad, or even crazy.  And so we get worse.  We lose ourselves more.  We obsess and ruminate more.  And they use it against us and disavow any responsibility for how they caused or played into it.  They use half-truths against us to control us and to get the eyes off their own flaws.  Our flaws become the central focus of the relationship.  Correction -our flaws AND their poor, unmet needs because of how disappointing we have become to them.