uBPDw filed for divorce yesterday - devastated

[Moselle]

My wife from whom I have been separated for 5 months finally filed for divorce after about 8 threats to do so.

But the way she did it was devastating.

She told my three children Last Thursday.

Then she sent letters to my parents and sister explaining why she was divorcing me.

Then she told me yesterday via Facebook.

These children have carried the burden for a whole week, not speaking to anyone about their feelings, or anyone answering any questions they may have.

This woman is a crazed animal.

She is busy destroying my name with anyone she can at the moment.

Sorry for the download, I have hoped for 5 months that she would recognise some responsibility for this mess. that was very naïve of me!

[WalrusGumboot]

It is par for the course for them. Other people's feelings are an afterthought.

I happened to be the one to file, but only because my exBPDw would never do it. It made me the "bad guy" and she was the innocent victim.

I'm sure your stbxBPDw has groomed her story to make her look good and you bad. My ex was obsessed with this. She reached out to almost everybody before a blink of an eye to tell her sob story. You will experience some personal fallout through all this. Count on it.

The silver lining in all of this is that you will find out who your real friends are. Your parents and sister probably already know there is something wrong with your stbx, and don't believe her. Your children know the truth because they have been with you both day in and day out. I was amazed at the amount of support I received during the divorce process and afterwards.

You will get through this!

[Matt]

Document this.  How she did this - putting more stress on the kids - may be a factor in deciding custody.

[catnap]

Document this.  How she did this - putting more stress on the kids - may be a factor in deciding custody.

Get copies of the letters also--they may mention the children or other things that may help you.

[livednlearned]

Are your kids in counseling? It's a good idea to get them in as soon as possible, regardless of how they learned. They probably have a lot to work through.

Is there anything we can help with in terms of how to talk to them? I found people here gave me helpful insights when I was reeling and not sure what to discuss or how to help my son process things.

I left my husband abruptly, pulled my son out of school on a Friday afternoon, and moved into an apartment. It was shocking to me, to N/BPDx, and to my son. On both sides of these difficult relationships, it's hard to do things the "right" way. I don't know what I would've done without therapists for me and my son. I discovered this board about a year and a half after I left and wish I had found it sooner.

Your kids can get through this ok -- divorce is hard but there are ways to pull through, especially with peer support from people who know what you're going through, BPD and all.

LnL

[Matt]

Is there anything we can help with in terms of how to talk to them? I found people here gave me helpful insights when I was reeling and not sure what to discuss or how to help my son process things.

I've got a story about that, which might be relevant... .

After separating suddenly - a big blow to our kids - my wife and I tried a counselor to see if the marriage could be fixed, and then another one.  At a certain point, almost a year after we separated, it became clear that nothing would work, and we would go ahead with the divorce.  We talked with our marriage counselor about the best way to tell the kids.

What she recommended surprised me.  (She had told me that she believed my wife had BPD - she got it.)  She told us that it would be best for me - not us - to talk individually with each child, starting with the oldest.  That way each child could process the information his or her own way, and I could give each kid my full attention.


I thought my wife might object, but she backed the counselor up - looked at me and nodded to indicate she thought that would be best too.  In effect what I think they were both telling me was, "You can do this, Matt, but Mrs. Matt probably can't do it well.  So get it done."

I did it as the counselor recommended, and it went well.  (My oldest was at that point in rehab, which added some drama to the process, but didn't change what she was telling us.)

Each kid processed it differently, and the younger ones - 8 and 10 at the time - asked questions that were practical and focused on themselves.  For example, S8 asked, "When we're at your house, will we take the same bus to school?"  He was concerned that the other kids would ask him why he took a different bus - he had some shame about the divorce and preferred that it was private.  (Yes, I had gotten a place very close, so it was the same bus.)  They asked about the schedule - "Whose house will we be at on Christmas?" - stuff that seemed very trivial to me, but was important to them.  By focusing on one kid at a time, I was able to answer all their questions without distraction.

My guess is, a similar plan might work out well for you too.

[formflier]

Matt,

Solid work! 

What I'm seeing for me... . looking forward... . is having to take on more of the role of the "responsible parent"... . as I suspect uBPDw will continue to get more and more disordered.

Is there anything we can help with in terms of how to talk to them? I found people here gave me helpful insights when I was reeling and not sure what to discuss or how to help my son process things.

I've got a story about that, which might be relevant... .

After separating suddenly - a big blow to our kids - my wife and I tried a counselor to see if the marriage could be fixed, and then another one.  At a certain point, almost a year after we separated, it became clear that nothing would work, and we would go ahead with the divorce.  We talked with our marriage counselor about the best way to tell the kids.

What she recommended surprised me.  (She had told me that she believed my wife had BPD - she got it.)  She told us that it would be best for me - not us - to talk individually with each child, starting with the oldest.  That way each child could process the information his or her own way, and I could give each kid my full attention.


I thought my wife might object, but she backed the counselor up - looked at me and nodded to indicate she thought that would be best too.  In effect what I think they were both telling me was, "You can do this, Matt, but Mrs. Matt probably can't do it well.  So get it done."

I did it as the counselor recommended, and it went well.  (My oldest was at that point in rehab, which added some drama to the process, but didn't change what she was telling us.)

Each kid processed it differently, and the younger ones - 8 and 10 at the time - asked questions that were practical and focused on themselves.  For example, S8 asked, "When we're at your house, will we take the same bus to school?"  He was concerned that the other kids would ask him why he took a different bus - he had some shame about the divorce and preferred that it was private.  (Yes, I had gotten a place very close, so it was the same bus.)  They asked about the schedule - "Whose house will we be at on Christmas?" - stuff that seemed very trivial to me, but was important to them.  By focusing on one kid at a time, I was able to answer all their questions without distraction.

My guess is, a similar plan might work out well for you too.

[livednlearned]

Matt,

Solid work! 

What I'm seeing for me... . looking forward... . is having to take on more of the role of the "responsible parent"... . as I suspect uBPDw will continue to get more and more disordered.

Part of being disordered often means ratcheting up the alienation. The fact that DSS removed you from the home even though she did the spanking is likely something she is using to fuel a narrative that paints you as the bad guy. If you haven't picked up a copy yet, read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. Even though it has "divorce" in the title, a lot of the alienation techniques apply to things BPD parents do during the marriage. Another book that might be helpful is Coparenting with a Toxic Ex.

Sadly, even if you become the "responsible parent," it doesn't do a whole lot if your kids split you black, with help from their mom... .

[formflier]

Yep... . I already have the divorce poison book.  Really haven't gotten into it much.

I have more BPD books to read... . than I have read. 

In theory... . we are not supposed to be talking about the "case".

I have no way of knowing if she is keeping her bargain.  Or if kids would fess up to it to an investigator if she didn't.

Matt,

Solid work! 

What I'm seeing for me... . looking forward... . is having to take on more of the role of the "responsible parent"... . as I suspect uBPDw will continue to get more and more disordered.

Part of being disordered often means ratcheting up the alienation. The fact that DSS removed you from the home even though she did the spanking is likely something she is using to fuel a narrative that paints you as the bad guy. If you haven't picked up a copy yet, read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. Even though it has "divorce" in the title, a lot of the alienation techniques apply to things BPD parents do during the marriage. Another book that might be helpful is Coparenting with a Toxic Ex.

Sadly, even if you become the "responsible parent," it doesn't do a whole lot if your kids split you black, with help from their mom... .

[Matt]

She doesn't have to talk about the case to engage in alienation.  There are a million explicit and implicit ways to do it.

One good nugget from the books is that one one of the kids gets cool toward one of the parents, that might be just a relationship that needs some attention.

But if all the kids become negative toward one parent, and also toward that parent's family of origin, that's a pretty solid sign that alienation is going on.

In your case I think it's very likely that some form of alienation is going on, and the longer it goes on, the harder it is to deal with.  So that may be a high-priority book to read, and an urgent focus for you... .

[Moselle]

Thanks all,

It's been 2 weeks and there's been no more contact between her lawyer and mine. So I have no idea what she is up to. I've told my lawyer not to be proactive, but wait for the other side to start.

The children are showing alot of devastation. It happened to be in the middle of their school exams as well. Real considerate of my wife!. So they are going through a very difficult time.

I like the idea of taking time for each one, to answer any questions they have. That can cover my 9 and 13 year old.

What about my 5 year old, what do you say to an innocent 5 year old caught up in the nonense?

[Moselle]

Are your kids in counseling? It's a good idea to get them in as soon as possible, regardless of how they learned. They probably have a lot to work through.

Is there anything we can help with in terms of how to talk to them? I found people here gave me helpful insights when I was reeling and not sure what to discuss or how to help my son process things.

They are in informal counselling. The school counsellor is a family friend and the older two go to her when they feel like it. That has been a real help. She sent an email to me and my wife about the children and what they were experiencing. It's pretty devastating to see what it does to them.

Yes I'm reeling as well at the moment and I'm not sure how to broach the topic. The counsellor said the children actually don't want to talk about it. They would prefer to talk about their daily activities.

She has gone out of her way to completely destroy my name with all of our friends, claiming abuse of all kinds.

I feel embarrassed and alienated in so many ways.

The good news is that as far as I can tell, her parents are trying to make this as amicable as possible. I am wary though. They are the cause of the BPD in the first place.   

[ForeverDad]

It's quite likely the children will feel guilt during a divorce, as though it was their fault or they triggered it.  They may not say it, know how to say it or even realize it themselves, but don't just assume they're okay and not facing that sort of impact.  It's one of those not-so-subtle impacts that can slide by unnoticed.

[Matt]

Sounds like you have two big concerns - the kids and your reputation.

I'm not sure I would let the kids see the counselor "when they feel like it".  Maybe you can establish a regular schedule.  "We're all under a lot of stress right now and I think it will be best for you to see Ms. Counselor every other week, or more often if you want.  I scheduled you for 4:00 p.m. Monday and every other Monday after that."  Of course you want the kids to buy in to the process - that's critical.  You also need to provide leadership in those areas where you know better than they do what is best for them.

I always told my kids about my own counselor - how often I saw him - that it was my choice to find a counselor and see him regularly.  So I was practicing what I preached - leading by example.

With regard to the smear campaign, how do you know that she is doing this - have people told you what she is saying about you?

If she says anything in writing that is false, or makes any false statements to the court, I think you can and should deal with that strongly.  Talk to a lawyer about what options you might have.

If it's a whispering campaign, that is tougher, but you still may have some options, if you know what she is saying and to whom.  Probably best to handle it one-on-one with each individual:  "I have heard that Mrs. Ex is saying stuff about me, like that I did X and Y and Z.  I want you to know that I have never done X or Y or Z - not ever.  If you have any concerns about that at all, I would be glad to talk about it and make sure you have all the facts."

No matter what you do, some will choose to believe her, or at least to act like they do.  Blood is thicker than water;  her family will probably always take her side, even if they have doubts, and if you try too hard to get them to accept that she is lying, it will cause more problems.

I wrote a letter to my wife's sister and brother-in-law, who had always treated me great, but who were taking her side and believing some of her lies.  I just laid it out, with the basic facts, and I attached the police report which said the same thing I said.  They never responded, and I left it alone, but over the years they have softened quite a bit, and I'm pretty sure they know the truth, but they still feel obligated to treat her like family and me with more distance.  I have to accept that and move on.  But if I found out that my ex was spreading more lies, especially if she put something in writing or made accusations through the legal system, I would have to respond quickly and strongly, to make sure nobody assumed that her accusations were true.

[formflier]

Hey... . I've not been through divorce filing with a pwBPD... . but... .

I had a similar plan to yours... . only mine is before the filing.  My plan was to wait and let her make a move... . if she was going to make one (file divorce).

If she had filed divorce... . then I was going to kick my lawyer into high gear to file several things about custody, evaluations, mandatory counselings... . etc etc.


I'm only bringing this up to say that you should consider "enforcing" your legal rights quickly.  She has already filed... . and I would look at it from the point of view of "the court" (in the future) looking at your actions now.  Have you done everything possible to assert your rights to parent your child, provide for your child, and prove yourself to be a fit father.  At same time shine light of fitness on the mom.  She will prove or disprove herself to be a good parent... . but you should shine the light.

Again... . I've not actually done this... . but I have a general plan if it ever comes to pass.  And if a divorce is filed against me... . waiting is not part of that plan.

Last:  For those following my story... . and going... . "but you are waiting now... . "... . Yes I am.  I've pulled the DSS "process" lever... . and I'm going to let that play out.  So I would argue that technically I'm not waiting... I'm participating in this process. 

Hoping some that have actually gone through a high conflict divorce will chime in on my thoughts and advice.

 

Thanks all,

It's been 2 weeks and there's been no more contact between her lawyer and mine. So I have no idea what she is up to. I've told my lawyer not to be proactive, but wait for the other side to start.

The children are showing alot of devastation. It happened to be in the middle of their school exams as well. Real considerate of my wife!. So they are going through a very difficult time.

I like the idea of taking time for each one, to answer any questions they have. That can cover my 9 and 13 year old.

What about my 5 year old, what do you say to an innocent 5 year old caught up in the nonense?

[Matt]

Hey... . I've not been through divorce filing with a pwBPD... . but... .

I had a similar plan to yours... . only mine is before the filing.  My plan was to wait and let her make a move... . if she was going to make one (file divorce).

If she had filed divorce... . then I was going to kick my lawyer into high gear to file several things about custody, evaluations, mandatory counselings... . etc etc.


I'm only bringing this up to say that you should consider "enforcing" your legal rights quickly.  She has already filed... . and I would look at it from the point of view of "the court" (in the future) looking at your actions now.  Have you done everything possible to assert your rights to parent your child, provide for your child, and prove yourself to be a fit father.  At same time shine light of fitness on the mom.  She will prove or disprove herself to be a good parent... . but you should shine the light.

Again... . I've not actually done this... . but I have a general plan if it ever comes to pass.  And if a divorce is filed against me... . waiting is not part of that plan.

Last:  For those following my story... . and going... . "but you are waiting now... . "... . Yes I am.  I've pulled the DSS "process" lever... . and I'm going to let that play out.  So I would argue that technically I'm not waiting... I'm participating in this process. 

Hoping some that have actually gone through a high conflict divorce will chime in on my thoughts and advice.

 

Thanks all,

It's been 2 weeks and there's been no more contact between her lawyer and mine. So I have no idea what she is up to. I've told my lawyer not to be proactive, but wait for the other side to start.

The children are showing alot of devastation. It happened to be in the middle of their school exams as well. Real considerate of my wife!. So they are going through a very difficult time.

I like the idea of taking time for each one, to answer any questions they have. That can cover my 9 and 13 year old.

What about my 5 year old, what do you say to an innocent 5 year old caught up in the nonense?

Yeah, I think you're right.

I did it wrong, at first, and then I had to fix it.

First I responded to my wife's divorce filing by talking her into putting it on hold.  I didn't hire a lawyer.  She said she would tell her lawyer to file papers putting the divorce on hold so we could think about the best path forward - we both wanted to save the marriage.  But the papers her lawyer drafted weren't at all what my wife and I had agreed to (in writing).  He charged her thousands of dollars, and either he didn't do what she told him to do, or she lied to me about what she told him to do.

The next mistake I made was filing a response which I wrote myself, and which agreed to every-other-weekend custody - not at all what would have been best for the kids or for me.

When I finally accepted that the divorce needed to happen, and got a lawyer, it all had to be undone, but my lawyer either didn't know how to do that or didn't care, so nothing got fixed, and more deadlines passed.

Finally I fired him and got a good lawyer, who found a way to fix what I had screwed up - she said "The situation has changed so my client needs to change what he agreed to."  What had changed about the situation was that I learned about BPD:  our marriage counselor, chosen by my wife, had told me "I think Mrs. Matt probably has BPD, and maybe some other stuff too."  So I read up on BPD, and came here and learned a lot more, and based on this new information, I no longer agreed to be an every-other-weekend father.  And that worked - the court threw out what I had previously agreed to and approved my request for a Custody Evaluator.

But it would have been much better, if I had responded to my wife's divorce filing right away, and strongly, making the case right from the start that the kids needed a solid parent and I could do that by my wife couldn't.  It would have been more effective, quicker and cheaper than the way I handled it.

[formflier]

 

Moselle,

Hey... . one of the things I like about this board is that I can dome on here an dump out what has happened... . what I have done... . and there are plenty of people that will say "I don't think you are doing this the right way... . and here is why"

Plus you can connect to people that have done things well... and screwed things ups.

Saying all this so that hopefully you will take this as helpful... . but challenging... . advice.

If the situation really is that a divorce has been filed against you... . and the person that has filed it has a PD... . then I really think an aggressive stance with "the right" lawyer is key.

Waiting is not an aggressive stance... .

[livednlearned]

Waiting allows your wife to establish a status quo schedule for the kids. Her lawyer, if the lawyer is good, will try to make the argument that the current schedule is working, the kids have adjusted, and it's best to keep things the way they are. That's bad for you.

I don't think it's a good idea to wait. Putting off the counter complaint (or whatever the response is called where you live) because you want to save the marriage just means that you are going to fall farther behind when it comes to custody for your kids.

Family court is in the business of ending contracts, including property, assets, etc. But it's also in the business of making serious, long-term decisions about what is best for your kids. It isn't in the business of saving marriages. Unfortunately, if you design your legal strategy to save the marriage, you stand to lose footing when it comes to getting a fair deal on behalf of your kids. Unless you demonstrate otherwise, court will default to a bias toward whatever the plaintiff wants because she has taken the initiative and the defendant has not pulled something compelling together in defense.

Family court felt to me like a shark tank. No one shows you how to swim, where to hide, how to survive. You're suddenly in the system and you need to figure out fast who your friends and enemies are, who's in charge, and how the game is played. It's not a very forgiving environment, especially for the vast majority of people who are dealing with seriously broken hearts and raw emotions. And when it's over, you have this binding schedule that tells you when you can and can't see your kids. To change it, you have to spend a huge amount of money and gather a lot of evidence to explain why you are only now asking for more time, now that your emotions have caught up to the reality of the situation and you understand how court works.

Not pleasant.  

[Matt]

Your response can also serve as a clear message to the other party, that if she chooses to attack you through the court process, you will bring all the relevant information as you are required to do.  So she won't have things all her way.

Failing to file a response, or filing something that leaves out important information about the other party's behavior, is probably a mistake.

Some of the key information - like her diagnosis - you may not have yet, and it's not wise to say anything that isn't factual.  I wouldn't say, "I can't prove it but I'm sure my wife has BPD!".

But you can say, "Mrs. Moselle has demonstrated behaviors which may indicate some mental, psychiatric, or psychological disorder(s).  So I ask the court to appoint a behavioral health professional who can administer psychological evaluations to both parents, so the court can take the results into account in deciding custody."

[ForeverDad]

Waiting allows your wife to establish a status quo schedule for the kids. Her lawyer, if the lawyer is good, will try to make the argument that the current schedule is working, the kids have adjusted, and it's best to keep things the way they are. That's bad for you.

I don't think it's a good idea to wait. Putting off the counter complaint (or whatever the response is called where you live) because you want to save the marriage just means that you are going to fall farther behind when it comes to custody for your kids.

Family court is in the business of ending contracts, including property, assets, etc. But it's also in the business of making serious, long-term decisions about what is best for your kids. It isn't in the business of saving marriages. Unfortunately, if you design your legal strategy to save the marriage, you stand to lose footing when it comes to getting a fair deal on behalf of your kids. Unless you demonstrate otherwise, court will default to a bias toward whatever the plaintiff wants because she has taken the initiative and the defendant has not pulled something compelling together in defense.

Sadly, I agree, family court is not there to save marriages.  Yes, there may be laws to specify a waiting period before going forward with a divorce, but that's just to filter out the short term tiffs some marriage experience.  If your marriage is seriously dysfunctional, a waiting period alone won't fix the dysfunction.

And ponder this... . if in all the years you were married you were unable to get your wife into meaningful therapy and fix the pervasive dysfunction in the marriage, why have hope that you can resolve it now in the adversarial process that divorce is?  Yes, you can always leave that Door to Reconciliation open a while longer as I did - and reiterate it whenever appropriate - but to ignore putting your parenting first once the legal wheels of a divorce case have been put in motion is sheer folly.  If/when the divorce is complete, all that will be left for you is your parenting.  Guard it well now, with knowledge, with good boundaries, with objective perspective, with preparation, with strategy.

[formflier]

 

To add to what Matt and FD have said... .

The sooner you get a Custody Evaluation report that clearly lays out the "mental issues" that both of you  bring to the table... . the sooner you can make an informed decision about reconciliation... . and about how strongly you will fight her over custody. 

That report (or something like it) will also allow your lawyer to explain your chances of getting custody in trial, how much that might cost, and help you define a strategy for when to settle and when to go to trial.

You have lots of important decisions to make... . SHE has forced this by filing... . not you.  Right now it doesn't appear to me that you have the information you need to make those decisions... . go get the info... . as quickly as you can.

[Moselle]

Dear all,

Thanks for all this info. It means a lot to me to have an online community like this!

uBPDw has committed fraud, admitted it in a signed affidavit and her psychiatrist wrote as letter to me confirming she had an impulse control disorder and an eating disorder. I used this info to defend her and prevent any further legal action against her. That was last year. So this is hard evidence

I also phoned the psychiatrist last week and she said she also has General Anxiety Disorder.

It's been 3 weeks now since she said she had filed. She also confirmed 10 days ago in front of a family friend that she had indeed filed. I phoned her lawyer yesterday to ask where the process was. She said she had not heard from my wife for three weeks, and had certainly not filed.

I am very aware of the legal side of things having had many experiences in my business, so I'm not green and I can hold my own with lawyers. Her lawyer sounds very reasonable, and was quite annoyed that W had not instructed her. During the initial discussions, the lawyer had said she had asked W for a family budget and W had given a ridiculous number. The lawyer had asked her to break it down for her... . and that's where the process stopped... . Lets see if the lawyer can succeed and budget with this money-addict where I failed. I have no doubt that this is all about money. That makes W's world go round.

I have actually retained two lawyers who are advising me. I find that two lawyers works best. It brings out the competitiveness in that they really put in a effort to show the other one up. Let them argue legal opinion, and I just listen to them both, choosing the best direction to go. I am well aware of my rights too.

Regarding reputation. People are beginning to see the truth about her, and becoming supportive of my efforts to minimize the stress on the children, where she has maximised it.

The sad thing is I still love this woman, and she very definitely doesn't love me. I've accepted that, and kept the consistent stance that I would like to work at the marriage, firstly by being friends, and then seeing if anything can be salvaged. People see that as reasonable as opposed to how she is behaving. I'm comfortable with my stance and will continue to be consistent with it. The more she rages, and the kinder I am - people notice. I have kept my boundaries for 5 months, exiting any conflict, and taking flowers to her each time I visit to say thanks for looking after the children. I refuse to allow her to drag me into her world. I am defiant in being generous to her even though she rages.

Also if she ever recovers, I hope she remembers the kindness during the separation. and I 'm desperate to establish as co-operative a parenting arrangement as I can.

Each step she takes I respond immediately to. Like when she went legal, I was very quick to get the process moving with my lawyers.

She's scheming I have no doubt, but I've sent subtle messages that I have affidavits for the fraud, video of her raging, and pictures of the bruises and scratches on my body each time she went on the rampage. I hope she gets the message.

[Matt]

How old are the kids?  How are they doing?

Are they with you at least half of the time?

[formflier]

She's scheming I have no doubt, but I've sent subtle messages that I have affidavits for the fraud, video of her raging, and pictures of the bruises and scratches on my body each time she went on the rampage. I hope she gets the message.

Sounds like you have taken reasonable steps. 

Also the attitude seems to be the same one that I have adopted.  On the one hand I am shining my light on ridiculous behavior... . untrue statements... . etc etc  and I'm doing that without being mean or persecuting. 

Then... when we have personal interactions... . I make sure I am on top of my game and that we have a good time. 

Hey... . one thing that I am trying to wrap my head around... . and you may want to think about this.

The comment I highlighted above about "scheming".  I think that is the way "nons" think.  I doubt she is scheming... . or that she thinks she is scheming. 

Maybe I'll state it another way... . my uBPDw is doing things that look ridiculous from "my" point of view.  But... . if she really believed that I was doing the things the accuses me of... . then her actions start to make more sense.  And that in her mind she is "defending" herself... . not trying to "hurt" me. 

Thoughts?

[Matt]

She's scheming I have no doubt, but I've sent subtle messages that I have affidavits for the fraud, video of her raging, and pictures of the bruises and scratches on my body each time she went on the rampage. I hope she gets the message.

Sounds like you have taken reasonable steps. 

Also the attitude seems to be the same one that I have adopted.  On the one hand I am shining my light on ridiculous behavior... . untrue statements... . etc etc  and I'm doing that without being mean or persecuting. 

Then... when we have personal interactions... . I make sure I am on top of my game and that we have a good time. 

Hey... . one thing that I am trying to wrap my head around... . and you may want to think about this.

The comment I highlighted above about "scheming".  I think that is the way "nons" think.  I doubt she is scheming... . or that she thinks she is scheming. 

Maybe I'll state it another way... . my uBPDw is doing things that look ridiculous from "my" point of view.  But... . if she really believed that I was doing the things the accuses me of... . then her actions start to make more sense.  And that in her mind she is "defending" herself... . not trying to "hurt" me. 

Thoughts?

If you are accused of something, especially domestic violence, having evidence on your side will help.  But it's way, way better to avoid the accusations in the first place.

The best way to avoid false accusations is to never be around this kind of person - the kind of person who might make false accusations -without a non-family adult third party present all the time - every second.

It may also be wise, if you think she might make accusations about the past, to let her attorney know that if she makes those accusations you are prepared to not only defend yourself but also to show that she was the aggressor.  Make it clear to her attorney that if his client makes false accusations, she will pay a big price for doing that.  Her attorney will be ethically obligated to advise her very strongly not to make accusations she can't back up.

The reason is that attorneys are obligated to do what they can to keep their clients out of criminal trouble.  If the attorney knows that her client could be charged with a crime, she has to advise her client how to avoid those charges.  And for someone who might make false accusations, the best way for her to avoid being charged with a crime is to not make the accusations.

Once you are accused of DV, it's likely that you will be arrested and charged, and those charges may be publicized - your picture could be put on TV and the internet.  It's very hard to get those records off the internet, even if the charges are later dropped.  So the best strategy is to take any actions you can, to prevent the accusations from being made in the first place.

[formflier]

It may also be wise, if you think she might make accusations about the past, to let her attorney know that if she makes those accusations you are prepared to not only defend yourself but also to show that she was the aggressor.  Make it clear to her attorney that if his client makes false accusations, she will pay a big price for doing that.  Her attorney will be ethically obligated to advise her very strongly not to make accusations she can't back up.

Is this something that an attorney would do via a letter?  Certified letter or something like that?

This is a situation where aveyron seems to be more protected than I am in my situation... . I definitely have it in my head that there are times when it is good to have lawyers involved.    Obviously that changes the "nature" of the relationship again... . sometimes that seems to be good... and sometimes bad.

[Matt]

It may also be wise, if you think she might make accusations about the past, to let her attorney know that if she makes those accusations you are prepared to not only defend yourself but also to show that she was the aggressor.  Make it clear to her attorney that if his client makes false accusations, she will pay a big price for doing that.  Her attorney will be ethically obligated to advise her very strongly not to make accusations she can't back up.

Is this something that an attorney would do via a letter?  Certified letter or something like that?

This is a situation where aveyron seems to be more protected than I am in my situation... . I definitely have it in my head that there are times when it is good to have lawyers involved.    Obviously that changes the "nature" of the relationship again... . sometimes that seems to be good... and sometimes bad.

I don't know about sending a letter;  in my case, my attorney had a frank talk with my wife's attorney, and laid it all out for her, and showed her evidence that her client was making false accusations, and my wife's attorney took the hint - she told my attorney she would advise her client about the matter, and at that point the false accusations seemed to stop.

I'll probably never know exactly what took place, but my attorney told me that she believed that my wife's attorney would do what she could to keep her client in check, and would probably follow up - repeat her advice by e-mail - so that if the accusations continued, and led to bad results for my wife, her attorney could show that she had given her the right advice on the matter;  otherwise the attorney could get in trouble.

I think my attorney acted wisely, and I wish my first attorney had done the same, much earlier - it would have saved a lot of trouble.

The key is that the accuser gets advice from her own attorney that making false accusations may put her at risk.  In my state, it's a crime to make a false criminal accusation, and in my case, we had a ton of evidence about crimes my wife had committed - false documents, false statements under oath, assault, etc.  So it was in her interest to settle the divorce case without once again taking things into criminal court;  if she had done that again, I was prepared to disclose everything we had, and she could have been convicted of a bunch of stuff.

If her attorney reviewed with her what my attorney told her - and the evidence my attorney showed her, which was just a fraction of what we had - that should have scared her enough to get her to act right.

But I can't say how it would work for somebody else - probably depends on how out of control the accuser is... .

[livednlearned]

I don't know about sending a letter;  in my case, my attorney had a frank talk with my wife's attorney, and laid it all out for her, and showed her evidence that her client was making false accusations, and my wife's attorney took the hint - she told my attorney she would advise her client about the matter, and at that point the false accusations seemed to stop.

I'll probably never know exactly what took place, but my attorney told me that she believed that my wife's attorney would do what she could to keep her client in check, and would probably follow up - repeat her advice by e-mail - so that if the accusations continued, and led to bad results for my wife, her attorney could show that she had given her the right advice on the matter;  otherwise the attorney could get in trouble.

In my case, my L told N/BPDx's attorney that I had significant documentation. N/BPDx's attorney wasn't convinced (and he didn't see the documentation -- I don't think that's allowed until it's entered as an exhibit, but I'm not certain).

So we ended up doing a deposition. He saw how I responded under pressure, and saw that I was a credible witness, and that I had facts and two large 3-ring binders filled with emails that N/BPDx had sent me. Meanwhile, N/BPDx's attorney had nothing. He apparently walked into the deposition room, saw the binders, and realized he had a problem client.

After the deposition, my lawyer talked to n/BPDx's attorney again. Suddenly, he was willing to negotiate.

The attorney needs to be able to size up the situation and figure out if his client is a liability. Right now, your wife's lawyer might be snowing him. There are probably limits to how he can size you up, but if he is willing to believe your L, then that's a good start. Keep in mind though that lawyers are always trying to psych each other out... . it's part of what they do. They're in this to win for their clients, so the opposing L might not believe what your L says.

[Matt]

Where I live, there's no reason one attorney can't show the evidence to the other, but it's not official til it's submitted to the court, with a copy to the other party.

We had a ton of evidence, but let me tell you which piece my attorney chose, because I think it shows how a good attorney thinks... .

On the night in question, my younger two kids were downstairs watching TV, and I was upstairs, sitting on the bed, torturing my guitar, when my wife came home.  She came upstairs and went into a rage, and in the course of it, she tore up all my sheet music - dozens of pieces.  I thought no more about that til many days later, because I had other problems - I was arrested.  In the meantime, without my knowledge, my kids waited til their mom wasn't around, and scotch-taped all the music back together, and brought it to me - I was no longer in the home due to the accusations.

I joked about it with my attorney, but she asked for the taped music, and she showed it to the other attorney.  In her statements to the police, my wife had told one of them that she didn't tear up the sheet music, and she had told the other one that she did;  both those stories went into their report, and proved that she had lied.  Now my attorney had the sheet music to show my wife's attorney, and she said if needed they could ask the kids, and the kids would say they had taped it together.  I could not have torn it up after the event, because I wasn't allowed back in the house.  My attorney asked my wife about this when she was deposed, and she handled it very badly - basically added lies on top of lies.

So my attorney said to my wife's attorney, "This will be among our exhibits, and if we go to trial, your client will be put on the stand, and we will go over this - her conflicting statements to the police, and conflicting statements under oath, and exactly how she thinks this music got ripped up an taped back up.  And my client will be asked the same questions, and his story will be consistent and true, and your client can't possibly avoid looking like a crazy person and a liar.  So... . maybe you would like to advise your client to stop the accusations and settle the case."

I wasn't there - she did this one-on-one - but I'm sure it was a very effective presentation.  My wife's attorney quit being what Bill Eddy (author of "Splitting" calls a "negative advocate", and started working with us to settle the case in an OK way.  And she changed her relationship with her client, from believing her and doing what she said, to providing strong guidance to quit lying and start working toward a settlement.

I think LnL's point is a great one:  If your attorney handles the case well, it may be possible to change the other attorney from a megaphone for lies into an asset - someone who will work toward a rational settlement.  :)epositions can be a big part of this, because they get the other party's story on record, so you can find evidence that proves statements made under oath to be false.  That gives the other side a powerful motive to settle the case, rather than go to trial and risk being proved to have lied under oath in depositions.

In general, I think a party who is not telling the truth will become a liability for her client, if your attorney handles the case skillfully, with depositions, evidence, etc.  Under pressure the lies will become more obvious and the dishonest party's attorney will be forced to settle;  you'll be able to get a better settlement because their position will crumble.

[formflier]

Where I live, there's no reason one attorney can't show the evidence to the other, but it's not official til it's submitted to the court, with a copy to the other party.

We had a ton of evidence, but let me tell you which piece my attorney chose, because I think it shows how a good attorney thinks... .

On the night in question, my younger two kids were downstairs watching TV, and I was upstairs, sitting on the bed, torturing my guitar, when my wife came home.  She came upstairs and went into a rage, and in the course of it, she tore up all my sheet music - dozens of pieces.  I thought no more about that til many days later, because I had other problems - I was arrested.  In the meantime, without my knowledge, my kids waited til their mom wasn't around, and scotch-taped all the music back together, and brought it to me - I was no longer in the home due to the accusations.

I joked about it with my attorney, but she asked for the taped music, and she showed it to the other attorney.  In her statements to the police, my wife had told one of them that she didn't tear up the sheet music, and she had told the other one that she did;  both those stories went into their report, and proved that she had lied.  Now my attorney had the sheet music to show my wife's attorney, and she said if needed they could ask the kids, and the kids would say they had taped it together.  I could not have torn it up after the event, because I wasn't allowed back in the house.  My attorney asked my wife about this when she was deposed, and she handled it very badly - basically added lies on top of lies.

So my attorney said to my wife's attorney, "This will be among our exhibits, and if we go to trial, your client will be put on the stand, and we will go over this - her conflicting statements to the police, and conflicting statements under oath, and exactly how she thinks this music got ripped up an taped back up.  And my client will be asked the same questions, and his story will be consistent and true, and your client can't possibly avoid looking like a crazy person and a liar.  So... . maybe you would like to advise your client to stop the accusations and settle the case."

I wasn't there - she did this one-on-one - but I'm sure it was a very effective presentation.  My wife's attorney quit being what Bill Eddy (author of "Splitting" calls a "negative advocate", and started working with us to settle the case in an OK way.  And she changed her relationship with her client, from believing her and doing what she said, to providing strong guidance to quit lying and start working toward a settlement.

I think LnL's point is a great one:  If your attorney handles the case well, it may be possible to change the other attorney from a megaphone for lies into an asset - someone who will work toward a rational settlement.  :)epositions can be a big part of this, because they get the other party's story on record, so you can find evidence that proves statements made under oath to be false.  That gives the other side a powerful motive to settle the case, rather than go to trial and risk being proved to have lied under oath in depositions.

In general, I think a party who is not telling the truth will become a liability for her client, if your attorney handles the case skillfully, with depositions, evidence, etc.  Under pressure the lies will become more obvious and the dishonest party's attorney will be forced to settle;  you'll be able to get a better settlement because their position will crumble.

that is some nice legal work... . sorry you had to go through that... . but it sounds like it was handled the best way possible.