Tightening up the formation

[formflier]

Yeah... . I have done some talk therapy for mine... . but most of that was to get "strategies" that I use when I wake up from a dream or a noise.

Basically focus on what is real and not real... .   Deep breathing... . relax... .  

This is also where another disability helps.  I have to wear a CPAP... so I have he darth vader noise to mask some other outside noises... and it gives my something to focus on that is rhythmic and help me relax and go back to sleep.

Sounds like you Dad had a more "classic" sensitivity to noise.  Lots of guys hate noise like that.  Lots of infantry types are always looking at things... . (trying to figure out if there is a roadside bomb... or something like that)  The basic thought is that your brain becomes so hardwired to help you survive... . that is doesn't turn off easy when you get back home and there is no real danger.  Your brain didn't get the memo.

My dad was in Korea.  He flew a MASH helicopter, like the one at the start of the TV show.

Til he died, he hated loud noises.  Would never go to fireworks on the 4th.

I don't know if that kind of stuff can be treated somehow - some form of talk therapy... . ?

I hope you don't have to be on meds long-term... .

It's pretty common for someone with BPD to try to keep you from sleeping.  Not sure exactly why but lots of us have had that experience a little or a lot.  With me it wasn't a big factor but it happened.  A pretty clear sign of something screwed up when somebody won't just let you sleep when you need to.

[formflier]

Thanks for the encouragement.

If the subject ever comes up... . I don't hide from talking about mental health or my "stuff"... but I don't advertise it.  However... the advice I pass on to people is to stay ahead of it.  Also... if you have an inkling that something is wrong... . just go get checked... . it's no big deal.

When I first when to see a psychiatrist at some point he was sort of trying to tenderly ask if I cared what the "label" was.  I suppose some don't want to wear a PTSD labe.    I quickly told him that I don't care what you call it... . I'm more interested in what affect is has on me... . and what I can do to manage it.

I've been knocking around the mental health world now for... 3 years or so.  I really should have gone in sooner.  I pretty much knew that some stuff wasn't right... but I was trying to tough it out or hope it would go away.  Plus... there was some fear of loosing flight status.

What's done is done... . but going in at first signs is much better than waiting until the problem has taken hold for a while.

I too feel you show a number of signs of resilient mental health. And if you are already able to contemplate the fact that your thinking may continue to evolve as you move forward, that's a very good sign indeed.

(And my dad was on a submarine in the South Pacific in World War II. . . . You guys have really experienced some stuff.)

[catnap]

It is not uncommon for BPD's to use a condition/illness of a spouse in a manipulative way.   I would assume that it is preferred for the family and spouse to understand a bit of what the condition is about and learn practical things such has how to wake you up in the middle of the night (if emergency, etc.). 

My dad, was a WWII tail/turret ball gunner and after the war refused to fly in anything that didn't have multiple engines or flights that involved going over the ocean.

[livednlearned]

Formflier,

I'm trying to understand how DSS is working in your case. In your original thread when things were unraveling, you wrote:

The DSS "comply with counselor" rule that was part of the safe plan... . may be help here... . that means she is required to stay with same guy.  With every new counselor "it" comes out quicker... . this may be good because then the issue (BPD) will be out and treatment will start... . or she will bolt... . and draw the ire of DSS for skipping out.  I obviously still have a place in me that hopes for treatment.

What does signing the safety plan mean -- does it mean that you and your wife agree that the kids were not safe?

Did the social worker assigned to your case let you see the scoring and rubrics to determine the safety/risk assessment?

EDIT: Also, did the social worker ask if either parent had a mental health diagnoses?

That makes two of us trying to figure this out!

Safety plan:  This was a document that my wife and I signed at the end of our assessment.  The assessment is where we drove down to the building at night and the kids were interviewed and the parents were informed.

It seems that this is an initial document that says... . while the investigation is going on... . this is what needs to happen to keep everyone safe.

There were two things put down.

I leave the home.

We both "comply with our counselors"

I tried to get no corporal punishment put on there... . they refused.


I don't think there was a formal scoring done... . just interviews and judgement calls.  That is my assumption... . and I didn't ask if otherwise.

They didn't formally ask about either of us having conditions... . but the PTSD thing was mentioned by some of my kids.

So it was discussed.

Here is a manual for GALs (guardian ad litems) that describes the DSS process in your state: www.nccourts.org/Citizens/Gal/Documents/Manual/chapter10.pdf

Here's a similar manual, though written in 2009: info.dhhs.state.nc.us/olm/manuals/dss/csm-60/man/pdf%20docs/CS1408.pdf

You can look at the DSS forms used by the social workers. They're online: info.dhhs.state.nc.us/olm/forms/forms.aspx?dc=dss

Scroll down to DSS 5228, 5229, 5230, 5231.

[ForeverDad]

Be aware that even when the information is there in front of the evaluators, investigators, court and other professionals this truism may still apply:  The one behaving poorly may experience few if any consequences and the one behaving properly may get little if any credit.

As for sleep, my ex also used sleep deprivation against me.  Often towards the end she would demand to "fix this right now", even into the early morning hours.  It didn't matter to her that I had to get up early to go to work.  It caught me off guard once.  He would rant and rage, claiming she couldn't hear me when I always replied in a normal tone and volume.  One time - just once - I raised my voice and she got this look in her eyes like "Aha, I got him to react!" but it made no difference, she just kept on badgering.

[Grey Kitty]

formflier, I believe you are getting very good legal advice here... . I'd like to draw your attention to one place:

Your first priority is your kids; that is clear. you still have one big choice to make:

Do you want to live with your wife or separate from her?



I think I remember you writing some things about what she would have to do in order for you to go back, like accept that she needs therapy, or agree to stop corporal punishment.

If you are still uncertain whether you want to stay with your wife or split, I'd strongly recommend you try to frame your choice in terms of what specific, concrete behaviors would be worth saying "I'm done." over.

Making this sort of decision based on any promises or deals your wife offers seems foolish to me.

I'm pushing you because some actions recommended here will work for or against reconciling with your wife, and if you aren't clear on that, it will make the decision to take those actions harder for you.

[formflier]

formflier, I believe you are getting very good legal advice here... . I'd like to draw your attention to one place:

Your first priority is your kids; that is clear. you still have one big choice to make:

Do you want to live with your wife or separate from her?



I think I remember you writing some things about what she would have to do in order for you to go back, like accept that she needs therapy, or agree to stop corporal punishment.

If you are still uncertain whether you want to stay with your wife or split, I'd strongly recommend you try to frame your choice in terms of what specific, concrete behaviors would be worth saying "I'm done." over.

Making this sort of decision based on any promises or deals your wife offers seems foolish to me.

I'm pushing you because some actions recommended here will work for or against reconciling with your wife, and if you aren't clear on that, it will make the decision to take those actions harder for you.

Yeah... . this is something I have been giving a lot of thought to.

1.  Primary goal is to reconcile with my wife and have a healthy relationship with her and rest of family.  The hard facts that I have to face is that is not up to me.  It is up to a person with a (suspected) personality disorder.

2.  I think I should get a better vibe this week about how the DSS process will go.  I need to make sure I have plenty of objective evidence that they should take a look at my wife's mental health.  If they do... . then there is hope  that this process may do some good.  If they don't, and stick with what my kids want or feel safe with... . then I will have to pull some "levers" on the legal machine.

3.  I'm not going back to an unhealthy relationship that is not being effectively worked on

Even in my best case scenario... . I see a tough road ahead.  That would be with her going to... . most likely... . DBT  and other forms of therapy.  And... . I could imagine that it may be better if I was not in the house to keep the pressure and triggers down.  I'm fine with that... . if that is really helpful.

If she draws a hard line... . basically flips me the bird... . then I am ready to proceed down that road. 

Some of my buddies in real life ask if I am going to try and "prove" that she is a bad mom... . My response is that I'm not responsible for proving that.  I just shine the light... . and enforce the courts shining the light... . and they will see what is there.

[formflier]

.

I'm pushing you because some actions recommended here will work for or against reconciling with your wife, and if you aren't clear on that, it will make the decision to take those actions harder for you.

Grey kitty... . and others... . please keep pushing.  I'm still getting new nuggest of information and challenging ideas that I haven't thought about before.

[Matt]

Yeah, don't get sucked into somebody else's way of framing the issue - is she a "bad mom" for example.

When you're asked a question like that - one that already has some assumptions inside it, like the assumption that this is about who is a good parent and who is a bad parent - don't take the bait.  Say it like you just did - "What I'm doing is getting all the information out in the light of day and letting things work out the best for the kids" or whatever.

And figure out who is helping you and supporting you - which doesn't always mean they understand what you're dealing with or they know what you should do - but you can decide who is helpful to listen to and who is trying to trap you or manipulate you into doing something you don't think is right.  Get your distance from anybody that makes this whole thing harder.  It's hard enough already.

[Grey Kitty]

  This is absolutely a great start:

3.  I'm not going back to an unhealthy relationship that is not being effectively worked on

I think you need to refine it more, as there is a lot of ambiguity hidden in there:

"Unhealthy relationship" covers a huge range. Can you come up with specific unhealthy behaviors (perhaps ones you've been experiencing already!) that identify exactly what you will not tolerate from her?

And "effectively worked on" is even worse. If she is going to therapy but is regularly beating your children (in a way that doesn't leave marks... . legal in your state) is that "effective"?

I'm afraid that if you grade her for "effort" you will confuse yourself.

In other words... . if you did move back with her for a week, and a couple dozen people were watching the whole thing like a reality TV show... . they wouldn't agree on whether it was an unhealthy r/s or not... . nor would the agree whether it was being effectively worked on!

It is a terribly hard choice on your part--I'm thankful that I don't have to make it myself! I'm also really trying NOT to push you either toward staying or leaving. Instead I'm trying to push you to find your own clarity.

[Matt]

This is absolutely a great start:

3.  I'm not going back to an unhealthy relationship that is not being effectively worked on

I think you need to refine it more, as there is a lot of ambiguity hidden in there:

"Unhealthy relationship" covers a huge range. Can you come up with specific unhealthy behaviors (perhaps ones you've been experiencing already!) that identify exactly what you will not tolerate from her?

And "effectively worked on" is even worse. If she is going to therapy but is regularly beating your children (in a way that doesn't leave marks... . legal in your state) is that "effective"?

I'm afraid that if you grade her for "effort" you will confuse yourself.

In other words... . if you did move back with her for a week, and a couple dozen people were watching the whole thing like a reality TV show... . they wouldn't agree on whether it was an unhealthy r/s or not... . nor would the agree whether it was being effectively worked on!

It is a terribly hard choice on your part--I'm thankful that I don't have to make it myself! I'm also really trying NOT to push you either toward staying or leaving. Instead I'm trying to push you to find your own clarity.

Yeah, this is the importance of "boundaries" - it can feel like nit-picking or semantics but it's important stuff - clarifying in your own mind and communicating to others exactly what is OK for you.

Members here walked me through this when I was where you were.  It wasn't easy.

What I came up with was something like this... .

I will not be alone with Mrs. Matt, without a non-family adult third party present, until we know the cause of her behaviors that have been a problem - accusations, threats, and physical violence - and she has obtained the recommended treatment, and if far enough along that it's clear she won't do that stuff any more.

Not saying that's right for you, but for me, it clarified where I was at, and what I needed from my wife, to have a chance for the marriage to work.  I had to repeat this - not word for word but more or less - a number of times, so others - counselors, mediator, etc. - could all hear what I was saying and get clear in their minds what needed to happen for the marriage to work.  They all did their best to help my wife see that if she wanted the marriage to work - and she said that she did - it was clear what she needed to do - she needed to commit not to engage in those behaviors anymore, and she needed to actively seek help, to work on the underlying causes, so she could keep that commitment.

In one way, this didn't work:  she avoided the issues for several months, and then finally made it clear that she didn't have a problem - I did.  And to this day - though she has been diagnosed and ordered by the court to get psychotherapy - she hasn't done a thing to get better.

But in another way, this approach worked very well:  it clarified for me and for others what the path to a healthy marriage needed to be, and it resolved the issue by making my wife choose one path or the other.  We got out of limbo.

[livednlearned]

You already know this, but it's worth underscoring.

When we aren't ready to face something -- and it doesn't matter whether a person is BPD or not -- it can be very frightening. BPD sufferers feel a lot of fear even even in the absence of pressure to face their behaviors. Shining the light on a BPD sufferer's behavior, whether it's a spouse in the marriage, or family members, or through counselors, or through DSS or court-ordered process, can trigger a tremendous amount of fear.  

My own experience dealing with someone who is BPD is that shining the light on his behaviors only made him more fearful, and more disordered. Fear wasn't a place from which he could ask for or receive help. And by shining a light, I mean seemingly innocuous things like therapy for our son, or therapy for me, or cautiously worded questions about whether he could sleep without drinking that second bottle of wine. By the time we were neck deep in lawyers, mediators, parent coordinator, therapists, and a full peanut gallery of professionals sitting front row, there was no direction for his illness to go but full throttle.

In the face of indisputable evidence and a consistent losing streak in court, the only thing that ever made him comply with court orders was a bailiff standing two feet away ready to put handcuffs on him. The more cornered he became, the harder he disputed reality. I have experienced nothing more sad and heart-wrenching than watching the man who fathered my child split from reality in a courtroom. The delusions of persecution became so acute, and so convoluted, he had to have a psychotic break just to tolerate the intensity.

That's what makes this illness so heartbreaking. Wanting to help them or love them is perceived as wanting to annihilate them. The very thing we want -- to love them and help them -- is precisely what triggers their fear.

So by shining light on your wife's behavior, whether it's through DSS social workers or marriage counselors or lawyers and judges, you stand to bring other witnesses to the front row, but the other possibility is that she retreats deeper into her illness.

That's why so many of us shift focus to our kids. We can actually help them.

[Matt]

Shining the light on a BPD sufferer's behavior, whether it's a spouse in the marriage, or family members, or through counselors, or through DSS or court-ordered process, can trigger a tremendous amount of fear. 

Yes... . and yet hiding key information, like behaviors, or avoiding it, or rationalizing it - all of which may be what is done not just by the person with BPD, but also the professionals who may not be prepared to actually deal with the reality of the situation - probably won't solve anything.

"Stop Walking On Eggshells" contains a lot of good ideas for people who deal every day with someone who has BPD - ways to communicate that are less likely to trigger her.  I've thought that maybe it should be titled, "How To Walk On Eggshells".  It's a great book, and it may have saved some marriages.  You have to decide if that is a safe thing for you to try, and if it might work for you.

In the legal process, one way to look at it is, you don't want to attack the other party, or try to "win" at her expense.  What you want to do is establish clear boundaries, and bring all the relevant information to the table, out in the open, so it can all be taken into account.

[formflier]

Shining the light on a BPD sufferer's behavior, whether it's a spouse in the marriage, or family members, or through counselors, or through DSS or court-ordered process, can trigger a tremendous amount of fear. 

Yes... . and yet hiding key information, like behaviors, or avoiding it, or rationalizing it - all of which may be what is done not just by the person with BPD, but also the professionals who may not be prepared to actually deal with the reality of the situation - probably won't solve anything.

"Stop Walking On Eggshells" contains a lot of good ideas for people who deal every day with someone who has BPD - ways to communicate that are less likely to trigger her.  I've thought that maybe it should be titled, "How To Walk On Eggshells".  It's a great book, and it may have saved some marriages.  You have to decide if that is a safe thing for you to try, and if it might work for you.

In the legal process, one way to look at it is, you don't want to attack the other party, or try to "win" at her expense.  What you want to do is establish clear boundaries, and bring all the relevant information to the table, out in the open, so it can all be taken into account.

Good stuff... . keep pressing me for answers... . and if they are not clear... . keep going.  I'll come back to this thread later this evening.

Unfortunately... . I'm going to start a thread that is titled... . "my work knows"... . or "my bosses"

And... . the genius part is it appears my uBPDw has accuses or insinuated some sore of embezzlement of county funds on my part.  I actually think this is genius... . because it can be proven pretty quickly that county funds are safe and OK.  And I can show where she has actually hidden funds. 

Sigh... . so far my bosses seem supportive... . on to the next thread... . lets try to keep this thread going to focus on my choices... .

Thanks guys... . keep it up... . getting my thoughts and decisions more focused.

[livednlearned]

Unfortunately... . I'm going to start a thread that is titled... . "my work knows"... . or "my bosses"

And... . the genius part is it appears my uBPDw has accuses or insinuated some sore of embezzlement of county funds on my part.  I actually think this is genius... . because it can be proven pretty quickly that county funds are safe and OK.  And I can show where she has actually hidden funds. 

BPD sufferers use very crude coping mechanisms like projection. It feels awful to experience negative emotions, so better to bounce them out and watch others perform the emotions from a safe distance.

It can be a bit like reading tea leaves, but often the wacky accusations can be traced to something they have done or are planning on doing.

[Matt]

BPD sufferers use very crude coping mechanisms like projection. It feels awful to experience negative emotions, so better to bounce them out and watch others perform the emotions from a safe distance.

It can be a bit like reading tea leaves, but often the wacky accusations can be traced to something they have done or are planning on doing.

My wife accused me of cheating on her many times.  She often said, "I know there's something going on between you and so-and-so!".  I never cheated on her in any way.

When we separated, my son found her diary and read it.  She wrote at length about another guy she knew from the gym - how wonderful he was and how she dreamed of being with him.  I don't think she actually "cheated" on me, but she was definitely fantasizing about it, and projecting that on me.

[formflier]

 

In this case... . the crude coping mechanism is that my wife actually moved $30k from a joint account... . into an account at a bank where I have never had an account.  So... she either forged my name to creat a joint account... . or she has her own account over there.

This is after she initiated a conversation with my months earlier... . after a string of misdeeds I was accused of... . that there would be no financial transactions ... . big decisions... . on the thousands of dollar range scale of thing... . without both of us agreeing.  I have it recorded... . I even confirmed with her the agreement and said I supported it... . I think that freaked her out a bit... . because I don't normally agree with her ideas.

[formflier]

In the face of indisputable evidence and a consistent losing streak in court, the only thing that ever made him comply with court orders was a bailiff standing two feet away ready to put handcuffs on him. The more cornered he became, the harder he disputed reality. I have experienced nothing more sad and heart-wrenching than watching the man who fathered my child split from reality in a courtroom. The delusions of persecution became so acute, and so convoluted, he had to have a psychotic break just to tolerate the intensity.

That's what makes this illness so heartbreaking. Wanting to help them or love them is perceived as wanting to annihilate them. The very thing we want -- to love them and help them -- is precisely what triggers their fear.

Liveandlearned,

If you don't mind... . can you tell more of your story about what happened in court... . and how that played out. 

Has your ex hubby come to terms with it... . or is he still in denial?

Do you think that you could have/should have tried to do something to bring this out earlier... . ?

Are you glad it finally came out?  Glad might be wrong word... but best I could think of... . did it have an ultimate good result.

I hope this doesn't happen in my case... but if it does... it does.

[formflier]

"Stop Walking On Eggshells" contains a lot of good ideas for people who deal every day with someone who has BPD - ways to communicate that are less likely to trigger her.  I've thought that maybe it should be titled, "How To Walk On Eggshells".  It's a great book, and it may have saved some marriages.  You have to decide if that is a safe thing for you to try, and if it might work for you.

That's a good point... . on what the correct title of the book should be.  I've quickly read the book... . and I'm in the process of going trough it and getting more details.  Since the DSS thing has come up... . I've not spent any time on the validation and SET... . not JADEing... . or those kinds of books.

Sort of have bigger fish to fry. 

Plus... . at this point... I'm not going back unless she is taking positive steps forward (I need to define that better)... . so I don't need to know how to be a better hubby... . and won't study much on that... . until I know she is taking steps in right direction.

That may have sounded harsher than I meant it... . hope you get the general point.

[Matt]

"Stop Walking On Eggshells" contains a lot of good ideas for people who deal every day with someone who has BPD - ways to communicate that are less likely to trigger her.  I've thought that maybe it should be titled, "How To Walk On Eggshells".  It's a great book, and it may have saved some marriages.  You have to decide if that is a safe thing for you to try, and if it might work for you.

That's a good point... . on what the correct title of the book should be.  I've quickly read the book... . and I'm in the process of going trough it and getting more details.  Since the DSS thing has come up... . I've not spent any time on the validation and SET... . not JADEing... . or those kinds of books.

Sort of have bigger fish to fry. 

Plus... . at this point... I'm not going back unless she is taking positive steps forward (I need to define that better)... . so I don't need to know how to be a better hubby... . and won't study much on that... . until I know she is taking steps in right direction.

That may have sounded harsher than I meant it... . hope you get the general point.

Yeah, I just mentioned the book to make a point.  (The author is the founder of this site, by the way.)

One set of skills is needed to live with a person with BPD.  Another set of skills is needed when you step away from the relationship.  You kind of have one foot in each camp right now, and that's a very uncomfortable place to be.

[formflier]

Well... . after 5 frustrating years I'm ready to "make something happen".  This is in my nature... . it's probably reinforced by my Naval Aviator training... . and how most of those guys are.

If there is a simmering argument between guys... . that can't get solved... . the aviator solution is to pour some gas on it (figuratively speaking)... . and see what happens.

I sort of got force into that situation here... . but now we are here... . so instead of retreat or hide... . I say we shine the light... . and she what happens.  Whatever happens will be better than staying "stuck" for 5 more years... . or one more month.

You already know this, but it's worth underscoring.

When we aren't ready to face something -- and it doesn't matter whether a person is BPD or not -- it can be very frightening. BPD sufferers feel a lot of fear even even in the absence of pressure to face their behaviors. Shining the light on a BPD sufferer's behavior, whether it's a spouse in the marriage, or family members, or through counselors, or through DSS or court-ordered process, can trigger a tremendous amount of fear.  

My own experience dealing with someone who is BPD is that shining the light on his behaviors only made him more fearful, and more disordered. Fear wasn't a place from which he could ask for or receive help. And by shining a light, I mean seemingly innocuous things like therapy for our son, or therapy for me, or cautiously worded questions about whether he could sleep without drinking that second bottle of wine. By the time we were neck deep in lawyers, mediators, parent coordinator, therapists, and a full peanut gallery of professionals sitting front row, there was no direction for his illness to go but full throttle.

In the face of indisputable evidence and a consistent losing streak in court, the only thing that ever made him comply with court orders was a bailiff standing two feet away ready to put handcuffs on him. The more cornered he became, the harder he disputed reality. I have experienced nothing more sad and heart-wrenching than watching the man who fathered my child split from reality in a courtroom. The delusions of persecution became so acute, and so convoluted, he had to have a psychotic break just to tolerate the intensity.

That's what makes this illness so heartbreaking. Wanting to help them or love them is perceived as wanting to annihilate them. The very thing we want -- to love them and help them -- is precisely what triggers their fear.

So by shining light on your wife's behavior, whether it's through DSS social workers or marriage counselors or lawyers and judges, you stand to bring other witnesses to the front row, but the other possibility is that she retreats deeper into her illness.

That's why so many of us shift focus to our kids. We can actually help them.

[formflier]

 

Amen to that... . that I have one foot either way.

But I'm going to argue against it being uncomfortable.  At least now I have options.  Before it would have taken a lot more effort to file something or do something to exit the marriage.  An incident came along and made the first step easy for me (easy not exactly the right word... . but there was no real decision to be made).

I would say the most uncomfortable position would be to get to the point to re-enter living together.  I will be on guard... . and even with treatment... . by that time I would assume she realizes that she has done something odd... . and she will be worried as well.  Luckily... I have a long time to think about that... before being faced with that.

[formflier]

"Unhealthy relationship" covers a huge range. Can you come up with specific unhealthy behaviors (perhaps ones you've been experiencing already!) that identify exactly what you will not tolerate from her?  No more accusations without a fact or something to reference.  Then it should be a question.  "Can you explain what happened with this bank transation?" is much different that " you took this money and spent it on a whore".

I need some help with this one.  I think it unreasonble to say that someone can never get... . or act upset.  That would include raising a voice.  Somehow I need a statement or condition that says that when confronted when upset... . there is a strategy you will follow to get un-upset... . or to help the situation be ok.  If I say honey... lets go for a walk and chat about what is going on  efff off is not an acceptable response I will tolerate or live with.

No more decision making that says I (uBPDw) decided and you have to deal with it.

Equitable control of money. 







And "effectively worked on" is even worse. If she is going to therapy but is regularly beating your children (in a way that doesn't leave marks... . legal in your state) is that "effective"?  corp punishment is off table... . in my book... . until lots of people agree it should be back.  To be honest... . I may never want it back.  Effectively worked on really should say is "compliant" with therapy.  There needs to be an obvious change in behavior

I'm afraid that if you grade her for "effort" you will confuse yourself.

In other words... . if you did move back with her for a week, and a couple dozen people were watching the whole thing like a reality TV show... . they wouldn't agree on whether it was an unhealthy r/s or not... . nor would the agree whether it was being effectively worked on!

It is a terribly hard choice on your part--I'm thankful that I don't have to make it myself! I'm also really trying NOT to push you either toward staying or leaving. Instead I'm trying to push you to find your own clarity.

Yeah, this is the importance of "boundaries" - it can feel like nit-picking or semantics but it's important stuff - clarifying in your own mind and communicating to others exactly what is OK for you.

Members here walked me through this when I was where you were.  It wasn't easy.

What I came up with was something like this... .

I will not be alone with Mrs. Matt, without a non-family adult third party present, until we know the cause of her behaviors that have been a problem - accusations, threats, and physical violence - and she has obtained the recommended treatment, and if far enough along that it's clear she won't do that stuff any more.

Not saying that's right for you, but for me, it clarified where I was at, and what I needed from my wife, to have a chance for the marriage to work.  I had to repeat this - not word for word but more or less - a number of times, so others - counselors, mediator, etc. - could all hear what I was saying and get clear in their minds what needed to happen for the marriage to work.  They all did their best to help my wife see that if she wanted the marriage to work - and she said that she did - it was clear what she needed to do - she needed to commit not to engage in those behaviors anymore, and she needed to actively seek help, to work on the underlying causes, so she could keep that commitment.

In one way, this didn't work:  she avoided the issues for several months, and then finally made it clear that she didn't have a problem - I did.  And to this day - though she has been diagnosed and ordered by the court to get psychotherapy - she hasn't done a thing to get better.

But in another way, this approach worked very well:  it clarified for me and for others what the path to a healthy marriage needed to be, and it resolved the issue by making my wife choose one path or the other.  We got out of limbo.[/quote]

[formflier]

In one way, this didn't work:  she avoided the issues for several months, and then finally made it clear that she didn't have a problem - I did.  And to this day - though she has been diagnosed and ordered by the court to get psychotherapy - she hasn't done a thing to get better.

But in another way, this approach worked very well:  it clarified for me and for others what the path to a healthy marriage needed to be, and it resolved the issue by making my wife choose one path or the other.  We got out of limbo.

Matt,

Do you have sole custody?  Was there any court sanction for not following the court order? 

Can I ask what problem she accused you of having?

I think I would be fine with taking the same path.  Defining a few non-negotiables... . and seeing if my wife wants to move in my direction. 

[Matt]

In one way, this didn't work:  she avoided the issues for several months, and then finally made it clear that she didn't have a problem - I did.  And to this day - though she has been diagnosed and ordered by the court to get psychotherapy - she hasn't done a thing to get better.

But in another way, this approach worked very well:  it clarified for me and for others what the path to a healthy marriage needed to be, and it resolved the issue by making my wife choose one path or the other.  We got out of limbo.

Matt,

Do you have sole custody?  Was there any court sanction for not following the court order? 

Can I ask what problem she accused you of having?

I think I would be fine with taking the same path.  Defining a few non-negotiables... . and seeing if my wife wants to move in my direction. 

Legally, I have 50/50.  I agreed to that.  My lawyer told me, "Over time it will change so you have 'de facto primary custody'.", and that's what has happened over the 6 years or so since we settled.  Now S15 is with me full-time, except once in a while when I travel, and D17 is with me most of the time - she makes her own schedule and I support her doing that.

Her original accusation - the night our marriage melted down - she called 911 and said "My husband threw me down the stairs."  The joke was, our stairs had a landing, so for it to happen as she said was somewhere between ridiculous and impossible.  And my kids saw us both coming down the stairs - me first and their mom afterward.  They told that to the police, who put it in their report.  (They also recorded that my wife told one story to one officer and a different story to the other officer a few minutes later.  So there was no doubt she was lying.)

During our marriage she had also accused me of having affairs - pretty much every woman I ever worked with, or met when I traveled, and even some of my female relatives.  (And one man I barely knew.)  She accused me dozens of times, sometimes in front of the kids, all 100% false, but I suspect she may have believed what she was saying, because of her own psych problems.

The "problem" she accused me of having - well, over the course of the divorce - about 18 months - her lawyer said I was "controlling" (which I have since learned is what many attorneys say who represent women in divorce cases - "He's controlling!" - means nothing).  My wife also said I was deeply depressed after my parents died, which was kind of true - and I never argued about it - but not relevant, since I was dealing with it well - I found a good counselor and followed his advice - and there was no evidence that either my wife or kids had been hurt by it.

She said I was hiding a lot of money, which was not true.  We went through three cycles of "discovery" - the same documents demanded three times and provided three times - just a way for her attorney to bill more hours.

Maybe there was something else - her lawyer was good at coming up with stuff so she could bill more hours - but nothing I can think of.

[formflier]

So did you ever try to push the fact that she skipped out on ther court ordered counseling?

I only asking because I could see this being an issue for me... . if she is not going to make an effort to be healthy... . then I will fight tooth and nail for sole custody.  I may not win... .

Just thinking... .

In one way, this didn't work:  she avoided the issues for several months, and then finally made it clear that she didn't have a problem - I did.  And to this day - though she has been diagnosed and ordered by the court to get psychotherapy - she hasn't done a thing to get better.

But in another way, this approach worked very well:  it clarified for me and for others what the path to a healthy marriage needed to be, and it resolved the issue by making my wife choose one path or the other.  We got out of limbo.

Matt,

Do you have sole custody?  Was there any court sanction for not following the court order? 

Can I ask what problem she accused you of having?

I think I would be fine with taking the same path.  Defining a few non-negotiables... . and seeing if my wife wants to move in my direction. 

Legally, I have 50/50.  I agreed to that.  My lawyer told me, "Over time it will change so you have 'de facto primary custody'.", and that's what has happened over the 6 years or so since we settled.  Now S15 is with me full-time, except once in a while when I travel, and D17 is with me most of the time - she makes her own schedule and I support her doing that.

Her original accusation - the night our marriage melted down - she called 911 and said "My husband threw me down the stairs."  The joke was, our stairs had a landing, so for it to happen as she said was somewhere between ridiculous and impossible.  And my kids saw us both coming down the stairs - me first and their mom afterward.  They told that to the police, who put it in their report.  (They also recorded that my wife told one story to one officer and a different story to the other officer a few minutes later.  So there was no doubt she was lying.)

During our marriage she had also accused me of having affairs - pretty much every woman I ever worked with, or met when I traveled, and even some of my female relatives.  (And one man I barely knew.)  She accused me dozens of times, sometimes in front of the kids, all 100% false, but I suspect she may have believed what she was saying, because of her own psych problems.

The "problem" she accused me of having - well, over the course of the divorce - about 18 months - her lawyer said I was "controlling" (which I have since learned is what many attorneys say who represent women in divorce cases - "He's controlling!" - means nothing).  My wife also said I was deeply depressed after my parents died, which was kind of true - and I never argued about it - but not relevant, since I was dealing with it well - I found a good counselor and followed his advice - and there was no evidence that either my wife or kids had been hurt by it.

She said I was hiding a lot of money, which was not true.  We went through three cycles of "discovery" - the same documents demanded three times and provided three times - just a way for her attorney to bill more hours.

Maybe there was something else - her lawyer was good at coming up with stuff so she could bill more hours - but nothing I can think of.

[Matt]

So did you ever try to push the fact that she skipped out on ther court ordered counseling?

I only asking because I could see this being an issue for me... . if she is not going to make an effort to be healthy... . then I will fight tooth and nail for sole custody.  I may not win... .

Just thinking... .

This has been an ongoing issue - something I've discussed a number of times with my friends and mentors here, as well as in real life.  And with my lawyer.

The conclusion I came to is that if I filed a motion, after the settlement, and the only issue was, "She's not complying with the court order - not getting treatment.", that would be a mistake.  She would argue that she couldn't afford it (not true but messy to argue about);  and that she was doing fine (not true but very difficult to prove);  and that the kids are doing fine (more or less true).  Those who know more than me all say it's unlikely the court would take action, and likely that I would look like a jerk for starting a new fight.

So I've handled it a different way.  I've made it clear to my ex, that if things work out OK - no more accusations, and we both do what is best for the kids - then I won't fight over the therapy issue or other issues I could bring up.  But if she makes more accusations, or if she won't do what's best for the kids, I'll take her to court, and seek full legal custody, and all these issues - therapy plus a number of other things - will be out in the open.

(She committed a number of crimes while we were married and during the divorce.  She made false accusations, filed false documents, false statements under oath, etc.  No consequences for any of it, but all fair game if we found ourselves back in court.)

This has worked.  The biggest conflict we had post-divorce was over moving a few hundred miles away.  I had to move for work, and I proposed to take the kids, and I offered to pay her moving costs if she chose to move.  It's closer to her family, and she likes it here more than where we lived when we were married, and at the time she wasn't working.  She fought me over it, for months, til I told her, "Either settle today or I file for full custody, and disclose that you aren't complying with the court order, and all the other stuff - lying under oath etc."  She accepted my offer, after rejecting it for months.

I don't think you can "force" someone to get help, and I don't think the court will enforce such an order.  Or, your wife could find a therapist she likes, and spend an hour each week lying to her, and nothing would be accomplished.  It has to be her choice - not something you pressure her into doing or get the court to tell her to do - that won't work.  And it's very unlikely she will ever make that choice.

But all of that is moot without a diagnosis.  And if there are no kids involved - there aren't are there? - I don't think the court will order psych evals.

Bottom line, you have to decide if you want to be with her as she is or not.  Quit thinking about fixing her - that's not in your control.

[Turkish]

So did you ever try to push the fact that she skipped out on ther court ordered counseling?

I only asking because I could see this being an issue for me... . if she is not going to make an effort to be healthy... . then I will fight tooth and nail for sole custody.  I may not win... .

Just thinking... .

formflier, I get this. I have 15 different theorectical scenarios (at least) going through my head all of the time. It's the way I am. It's a boon in my work, but can be a bane in other things. While it's good to think ahead, focusing that energy on your immediate concerns may help you in what you need to do now.

This is being focused and mindful of the meeting with DSS, and getting access back to your children. From the stories we read here, sole custody can be a long and arduous process. The stories certainly helped ground me, because that was my first instinct. That possibly far off future is one of many possibilities. The here and now is being mindful of your meeting, and getting access to your children.

Don't be too quick to jump the process (if you're a pilot, maybe you know something about OODA Loops).

[formflier]

OODA loop... . yeah... thought about that once or twice... . or a gazillian times!   

The one thing I have to realize is that I am dealing with people that seem to like to go with the first story that they have heard.

Even their "trained investigators".


So... . if I have critical evidence... . it doesn't need to be introduced later.

So did you ever try to push the fact that she skipped out on ther court ordered counseling?

I only asking because I could see this being an issue for me... . if she is not going to make an effort to be healthy... . then I will fight tooth and nail for sole custody.  I may not win... .

Just thinking... .

formflier, I get this. I have 15 different theorectical scenarios (at least) going through my head all of the time. It's the way I am. It's a boon in my work, but can be a bane in other things. While it's good to think ahead, focusing that energy on your immediate concerns may help you in what you need to do now.

This is being focused and mindful of the meeting with DSS, and getting access back to your children. From the stories we read here, sole custody can be a long and arduous process. The stories certainly helped ground me, because that was my first instinct. That possibly far off future is one of many possibilities. The here and now is being mindful of your meeting, and getting access to your children.

Don't be too quick to jump the process (if you're a pilot, maybe you know something about OODA Loops).

[formflier]

But all of that is moot without a diagnosis.  And if there are no kids involved - there aren't are there? - I don't think the court will order psych evals.

Bottom line, you have to decide if you want to be with her as she is or not.  Quit thinking about fixing her - that's not in your control.

Unfortunately there are lots of kids involved.  18 down to 1.  8 total.  Yep... . I said that correctly 8 total.  So... . another way of thinking is that there are 8 people that I love that I don't want to be the 4th generation affected by BPD or BPD like behavior. 

uBPDw mom's brothers and sisters have broken into two camps over care of the grandma.  They (literally) mailed keepsakes back to each other and have not spoken in a year or two.  All of the cousins of uBPDw still talk and think their parents are being ridiculous... . however... . they can't... . or wont... . see it in themselves.