uBPDh and his latest ultimatum. Are ultimatums and threats the norm?

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, my husband's kids hate me, and have told him I'm not allowed around his grandkids. This has been a sort of recent development. They have no reason for this decision, other than they are mean and personality disordered. Issues with his kids have almost destroyed our marriage, along with his anger and dysregulation that I now feel is likely do to undiagnosed BPD... . or some disorder. My bet would be BPD, along with traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Well, I've told him to see his kids all the wants,  but don't think it won't hurt me because he is allowing them to ostracize me, and control his life by telling him I'm not allowed. Well, it turns out he has been having contact with them, and I was hurt because he his it from me. He always hides things and lies to me. Over unnecessary things. It's caused huge trust issues, because he always lies. And I only wanted to know he was seeing them because it always end up that I'm roped back into the dysfunction of dealing with these adult kids of his, because my husband insists. And they treat me horribly, and he allows it.

Well, tonight after I found out he'd been having contact(even though his therapist advised him to let this situation rest until his kids came around), he told me he wanted ME to meet with his therapist with his daughter, and that "If you won't do this, pack your crap and move out". He chased his kids, kisses their butts, but I get threats and blame, all the time. He never blames them for anything. No matter how hateful they are, and one of them went crazy on ME in my kitchen while I was doing dishes after having them over for dinner.

Are threats and ultimatums typical of BPD? How do I deal with this? I'm trying to get my husband to see that he could use some help with his anger. He was recently prescribed a drug by his family doctor, but it's not helping at all. Do I just cave into his threats and demands like I always do?

I want our marriage to work, but I'm constantly on edge due to his anger, threats and blame. He admits he has anger issues, but says I'm trying to "change him". I'm not, I just think he has a chemical imbalance. He knows I have OCD and panic issues. I'm not ashamed, and I seek out help. How do I best deal with his latest ultimatum?

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[an0ught]

Hi Ceruleanblue,

Well, my husband's kids hate me, and have told him I'm not allowed around his grandkids. This has been a sort of recent development. They have no reason for this decision, other than they are mean and personality disordered. Issues with his kids have almost destroyed our marriage, along with his anger and dysregulation that I now feel is likely do to undiagnosed BPD... . or some disorder. My bet would be BPD, along with traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Sounds like you are at the moment painted black. Not much you can do there. It is sad that the communication with grandkids is severed but considering the problems in your marriage having less contact with his kids means less stress to deal with.

Well, I've told him to see his kids all the wants,  but don't think it won't hurt me because he is allowing them to ostracize me, and control his life by telling him I'm not allowed. Well, it turns out he has been having contact with them, and I was hurt because he his it from me. He always hides things and lies to me. Over unnecessary things. It's caused huge trust issues, because he always lies. And I only wanted to know he was seeing them because it always end up that I'm roped back into the dysfunction of dealing with these adult kids of his, because my husband insists. And they treat me horribly, and he allows it.

Hiding is not about you but about his on insecurity. Still tough to deal with   Don't let his kids disrespect you - the more you allow it the more you are the dumping ground for their negative emotions. Read up on boundaries.

Well, tonight after I found out he'd been having contact(even though his therapist advised him to let this situation rest until his kids came around), he told me he wanted ME to meet with his therapist with his daughter, and that "If you won't do this, pack your crap and move out". He chased his kids, kisses their butts, but I get threats and blame, all the time. He never blames them for anything. No matter how hateful they are, and one of them went crazy on ME in my kitchen while I was doing dishes after having them over for dinner.

You can't control him. Heck he can't control himself. And again don't let yourself disrespected. Someone goes crazy - take a walk.

Are threats and ultimatums typical of BPD? How do I deal with this? I'm trying to get my husband to see that he could use some help with his anger. He was recently prescribed a drug by his family doctor, but it's not helping at all. Do I just cave into his threats and demands like I always do?

Threats and ultimatum are extreme forms of control. PwBPD often need a high degree of control (for a host of reasons) and with b&w thinking don't shy to go to extreme means. The way to deal with this is boundaries. I personally refuse to deal when being forced by unreasonable deadlines, an ultimatum or blackmail. I pretty much refuse to even negotiate reasonable demands if accompanied by unreasonable means even if it costs me something. I may make some exceptions and allowances but in general this is for me a fairly strict boundary. It is grounded in my value of self determination and it is backed up by enough experience with disordered persons that started on a path of escalating out of control behavior that was painful and costly to reign in.

Considering the entrenched behavior I don't recommend to start with boundaries until you fully read the material, understood it and possibly discussed it here on the board. Taking away control will result in an extinction burst and it is important to get through it otherwise the whole exercise backfires. Getting the first boundaries in place is hard but then you will notice significant and possibly broad changes including less anger/rage exposure. Getting boundaries in place is not without conflict. It is not about winning but about reestablishing the necessary minimum respect.

I want our marriage to work, but I'm constantly on edge due to his anger, threats and blame. He admits he has anger issues, but says I'm trying to "change him". I'm not, I just think he has a chemical imbalance. He knows I have OCD and panic issues. I'm not ashamed, and I seek out help. How do I best deal with his latest ultimatum?

I assume it is this ultimatum:

he told me he wanted ME to meet with his therapist with his daughter, and that "If you won't do this, pack your crap and move out".

Now that is an interesting one. Because what is wrong with meeting his T with his D? A lot of people here would love to have this opportunity. It won't be easy etc but what can you loose? He certainly is terrified of this situation. And his fear causes him to speak in unreasonable terms. Considering your overriding interest of building and maintaining a link to the T I would

a) simply address the valid part (visit T) and ignore the rest. It is hard for him as it is.

or

b) address the valid part (visit T) and then remark you are a reasonable person and felt threatened by his pressure. (<-- keep this as much as possible about you). Then state a simple and reasonable way to schedule it that works for you and signal flexibility.

The point is - you can't control him and he can't control himself. Making him agree to not do it is likely pointless as him being extreme is not a plan but a learned instinctive behavior that needs unlearning - that is where boundaries come into play. At this point in time you can only build the base case and background for your boundary enforcement later.

[Ceruleanblue]

I probably will go with my husband to this meeting with his daughter at his T's office. My therapist pretty much told me this wasn't a good idea, but of course, my husband wasn't making it an ultimatum at this point. My T is on an extended leave right now, which is really bad timing for me. I'd love to talk this over with her. I only worry about going because my husband gangs up on me with his kids, he never protects me, no matter how they treat me. His girls have a gang mentality, and he is afraid of losing them, so he won't defend me.

I just have very little to say about all this whole situation. Everything I say, is twisted, made into something else, and used as fodder. I'm hoping my husband's therapist doesn't allow that to happen is this meeting. I'm sure I'm going to get roasted, because it's what his girls have been wanting to do. I've been so beat down by my husband, now he expects me to withstand this too? And I guess I have no choice, other than to do it, or give up my marriage.

I'm sick, sick, sick of his anger, threats and ultimatums that leave me with no choices but his narcissistic wants and needs. I simply don't matter at all, in any of this. Only HIS wants an needs matter. He doesn't even want me to ask any questions in regards to the therapy session, he blew up about it tonight and started shaking and cussing, and acting outrageous. All because I again "said the wrong thing". I'm always saying something he takes objection to, no matter how careful I am, and to him it justifies his rage.

I left, and left him alone with his rage and anger.

Oh, and the time his daughter went crazy on me in my own kitchen: I left that day too, and went for a walk. I called a friend, and cried to them about my husband doing nothing, and how I'd not expected it from this one of my H's girls. I am done being the target of all this rage and anger.

I can only work on me, or only control ME, but it feels like my husband sure has control of everything. If he doesn't have complete control he breaks out the threats and anger, until I back down. I really do need to establish some boundaries. I came into this relationship with strong boundaries, and he slowly beat them down after we got married, and the irrational anger and erratic behavior started... .

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My uBPDw and I have weekly 'discussions' about the Game of Thrones.  I started reading the books way before we first dated.  She doesn't like any type of nudity in movies, so we've never watched the show.  My S23 (Blended family as of 2010) has read the books and him and his friends watch the show.

So Sunday he went to his friends house, we talked briefly before hand (tonight should be the duel... . one of his favorite scenes in the book) and then afterwards he told me they "nailed it"... .

So at night my wife starts into the whole GoT discussion... . we each state our positions for the 1000th time, but now she's moved onto that she can't believe I would talk about the show with my son and how disrespectful it is to her... .

These discussions can be very tricky, she usually starts out reasonable with a normal tone.  That night she escalated it to tell me that she needs to see the lawyer to remove me from guardianship of her S15 if something happens to her and started in on a whole list of conditions (disguised accusations) that I had to agree to in order for her to not change things.

After the first couple I stopped and told her no, I actually take back those promises.  I, as your husband, will take your views into consideration just like in every other situation.  I will use my best judgement.  If that's not good enough then you can have the lawyer change your will.

She tried all sorts of things to engage me ("well, if it makes you feel better I won't name D26 as his guardian either"... . because she reads the books too)

I was pretty good that night and didn't engage... . unfortunately she started up on a slightly different topic first thing the next morning and I lost my temper before leaving for work... . we're all a work in progress.

[an0ught]

Ceruleanblue,

sounds you are also quite afraid  . A T should ensure it is safe for everyone but feeling safe is a subjective feeling as well and in the end that counts and in the end you need to decide whether to go or not. If they are behaving badly it will show and you could always leave. In some sense this may be a good outcome as it becomes clearer who is driving the conflict.

It can help to think this whole through from a boundary perspective.

- if you feel you can not handle it - don't go.

- if you feel during the session you can't handle it - leave at that point in time. Prepare a short sentence to announce exit along the lines of "At this point this is too much for me. I will leave now."

- if you are afraid of the immediate aftermath when everyone is still quite charged - arrive and leave independently. Maybe contact T to plan staggered leaving and tell that if you feel triggered or disrespect you will leave to avoid making matters worse.

- if you are afraid of discussing certain topics - prepare a short response along the lines of "at this point I'm not prepared to discuss topic X".

- think about how to avoid JADE and what clarifying questions could be used to respond instead.

There may be a few other boundaries you can think of. Boundaries are intended to protect you and need to be under your control to be effective.

[Ceruleanblue]

anOught,

I'm so glad you posted this about boundaries. I think going into this "meeting" with some boundaries in mind, might make it some easier for me. We met with his adopted daughter(they share the same mother) not long ago, and she was hostile, wouldn't even initially greet me, and basically only spoke to me to tell me "she never wanted to see me again". Now, that meeting was not at a T's office, and it went downhill in the first five minutes because my husband didn't want to rehash the past(and she wanted to list her "grievance" against me), he wanted to focus on moving forward with boundaries, and she de-escalated as soon as she didn't get her way. I'm hoping that since this next meeting will be at a T's office, it will not be that hostile. But these girls are very, very manipulative, and T's have to be "neutral" somewhat? And the T's does not know the entire background, and these girls LIE.

I don't want to have to defend myself or my actions at all. I don't want to discuss any of the hateful crap they've done to me either. I'm not anti confrontation, at all really, but every time I've tried to talk to my husband or any of his kids, it just goes BADLY. They all seem to dysregulate, and blow up. They all seem to have skewed reality. We were invited to visit the new babies, yet both these girls later got mad that we did. The latest girl invited us, we drove an hour and a half to see the baby, only visited an hour, and at our "meeting to work things out"... . she told us she felt "bombarded" by our visit. SHE':) INVITED US. I feel everything they do is like a trap, and can and will be twisted. I'm just done with all this crap. I will go along for my husband's sake, but I know they are unlikely to change without major therapy.

I am very scared about this meeting. These girls can be nasty, and they lie, and like my husband, they have volatile tempers. I can be very angry, and still be respectful, and calm. They can't. I really just don't feel up to this, but I don't see any way to get out of it.

[hergestridge]

After I set a boundary ("no ultimatums or threats", they have now taken on an implicit form. I'm being being presented with lists that needs to be improved "about us" (about me really), and the consequences if these changes fo not happened is something my wife does not want to discuss. Lately she's even started adding things she likes about me to that list on order to make that list of complaints impossible to criticize.

I have told her over and over that I don't accept living in a relationship where I am the subject of an "improvement plan", and she has accepted to stay with me under those conditions. Still she finds a way to bypass that agreement and to put the very same demands (that I have rejected year after year) on me again.

Sadly, it seems that when I tell her "No, please, that hurts!", she stops temporarily and then just finds another way to hurt me. And she doesn't see anything wrong with that.