Need advice for family "thing"

[Rapt Reader]

Lots of you know my situation: My 37-year-old son was diagnosed with BPD a year ago, after a heroin addiction for at least 3-4 years and a suicide ideation which landed him in the hospital, and then a Dual Diagnosis Program that diagnosed his BPD, helped him on his way to sobriety, and saved his life. That's the good part  

The complication in our family is that his younger brother (non-BPD) is married to a lovely, charismatic beautiful woman who I believe could be (undiagnosed) BPD. I've learned the communication tools and techniques and have navigated a good relationship with her after the past 10 years of trauma, no contact and rages. That's actually, also, the good part. Also a good part is that she had my first grandchild almost a year ago, and although she had threatened to not let us see the baby towards the end of the pregnancy, what I've put into practice here changed that and I've seen the baby several times in the last year (we live 5 hours away from them).

OK. The bad part. The relationship between my sons has gotten better, but isn't perfect. My BPD son still deals with the past anger he has over how he'd been treated by his brother, who did act and feel superior to an older brother who got worse grades in school, had poorer social skills, and less friends that he did. And, my non-BPD son is still angry at the drug addiction, the trauma his older brother put the family through for so many years before his now 15-month sobriety. The relationship between my BPD son and my D-I-L is non-existent. My sons haven't seen each other since before the stay at the Dual Diagnosis Program--and have only spoken politely on the phone a few times for birthdays, Christmas, etc.

This coming weekend is my grandchild's first birthday. My BPD son has never seen the baby; his remaining BPD symptoms include Social Anxiety, and family get-togethers have been too stressful for him to consider joining. Until now. This son would like to maybe go with us to my M-I-L's house for the little birthday party with non-son, D-I-L, baby and his Aunt & Uncle. Enough people there to be a very good breakthrough for BPD son to even think of going, but not so many (which my own extended family would provide!) to make this unthinkable for him. Now, this should be another "good part" but it is not... .

I sent an email to my non-son today to let him know his brother might be there for the party, so he and my D-I-L could prepare themselves mentally and emotionally for the encounter. I knew they would be hesitant, but the email I just got from my D-I-L has me a bit thrown for a loop: If BPD son wants to come, he needs to take a drug test first and test clean, at which time I'm supposed to take a picture of it on my cellphone and text it to them. This seems to be non-negotiable; she has set her boundary as a protection for her baby and she's sure I can understand.

I don't want to invalidate her concerns; I understand their trauma from the past in their dealings with him. I also am hesitant to tell BPD son this. This will possibly be a deal-breaker for him; he's an adult who has been clean and sober for 15 months and is going to be offended and furious at his younger brother (who hasn't made this request, but D-I-L emailed that he agrees with her demand) and D-I-L, because they have talked down to him and demoralized him for years. This will be just "one more thing" for them all to be agitated with one another about.

So: Am I being overprotective not telling BPD son about this requirement for him to go to his nephew's birthday party? (I could discourage him from going by telling him he doesn't have to... . ) A baby he's never been able to see as of yet? Am I supposed to look at this as just one of the prices he has to pay for his past behaviors? Is this something he has to deal with because of his past, and just learn take his lumps?

Or do I try to explain to D-I-L and non-son that BPD son can't be using drugs again because of his circumstances (lives at home, has no car, goes nowhere without me, has constant Therapy appointments and regular blood tests because he will be having Hep C treatments in October for which he can't have relapsed beforehand). I can vouch for him, but for some reason they probably won't believe me; will think I'm either too naïve to know for sure or I'm covering up to protect BPD son.

Or... . ? I'm too close to this. I have a relationship with my non-son and D-I-L that I don't what to jeopardize, I don't want to jeopardize the tentative relationship my sons have with each other (and I'm not even mentioning the anger my husband will feel when he finds out about this new requirement... . he's tired of the "bossiness" we have to deal with regarding D-I-L on a regular basis). I know I can't control any of this. Every player is who he/she is, feels what they feel, wants what they want. Help?  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

Rapt

This is an interesting problem and at first glance I do see that your non son is going a bit overboard. I am not sure he is aware or even cares if his action impact his brother and in that I find it a bit sad. I feel if you gave your son the garantee that you ds is not using drugs then your word should be respected. If he continues to demand the drug test then my gut would want to protect my ds from this kind of insult and have him not go. You could always let him decide for himself if he wants to do what his brother has requested but I feel you already know this request will hurt your ds. so really the root here is your non son and DIL not being able to forgive and move on... . they are living in the past and feel justified in their request and I am not sure I agree with that. How long is your ds suppose to suffer... . how long is he to be punished?

Another thing I think you need to look at is who really wants this? Is it you that wants the one big happy family? Are you pushing these two brother together when neither one really has made an effort to repair their relationship?

If it were me I would talk to my non son explain that you feel very confident that he is drug free and that you had hoped that the family could enjoy this important milestone together. If he still wants the drug test I would probably just past on the whole party all together. Mail a gift and look forward to another time in the future when you can see your grand child. I feel your non son is using his child to control you in a way by making such a request. To me I would have a hard time going to a party under these kind of circumstances.

Now it is probably easier said than done... . I don't have a grand child and I don't know the pain and hurt one must feel when limits are made on visitation BUT to me I don't get a good feeling in my gut about how this was presented to you. I am not sure your non son needed notification of your ds appearance at the party so I might not have told him. The party is at the MIL's? Right? So why do you need permission from non son... . I would think it is up to the MIL? Not sure I understand completely. I sorry I could not have been more helpful but that is my take on things. I try to go with my gut a lot of times and I don't get a good feeling about this at all.

[jellibeans]

Have you read the Triangulation

Triangulation was originally characterized by Murray Bowen MD as the “process whereby a two-party relationship that is experiencing tension will naturally involve a third party to reduce tension”.

Simply put, when a two-person relationship becomes strained the individuals will tolerate only a small amount of tension before they involve a third person. The resulting triangle can hold much more tension because the tension can be shifted around the three relationships.

We all do this. Triangles often help us cope when we are struggling with another person. Triangulation can be a very stabilizing factor in a family. Triangulation can also be a very polarizing and destructive dynamic.

What determines the difference between stabilizing and polarizing? Typically the third person being brought into the triangle and how this person responds - whether they help the parties resolve the struggle between themselves or they take an active role in the tension.

Understanding this dynamic can be very helpful to parents. Bowen's theories on family dynamics are really interesting.

[Rapt Reader]

Hey, jellibeans... . Thanks for your insights  

The reason I emailed my non-son (about my BPD son thinking of coming to the party) is because he had emailed me first with a link to a NY Times article about drug addiction, with questions he wanted my responses to: Is BPD son tested regularly for drugs? Does he still see his friends? What are his plans for the future now that it's been more than a year since the DDx Program?  

I answered his questions honestly (Yes he is tested regularly--he's been clean and sober for 15 months; No he doesn't see his friends, he's with us all the time and goes to every single appointment and I go with him; He's working on his graphic novel and still has Social Anxiety and is "nesting" with us right now... . ). At that point, I figured that I'd better mention that BPD son was thinking of going to the party (3 hours away from here) and wanted to meet the baby, to give them time to deal with it. I did tell them that if they weren't comfortable with that, then they could let me know. Also, though the party is at my M-I-L's, my non-son and D-I-L have organized it, and it is really more of a small family get-together (which is why BPD son was considering going, to ease himself back into the family).

I appreciate your posting the Triangulation information; I'd emailed my BPD son's Neurofeedback Therapist with this new drug-test development to get her advice (along with his OutPatient Therapist; I haven't heard from her yet). She emailed back that it wasn't right to put me in the middle of this, and that if my non-son and D-I-L wanted to call BPD son and make the request directly to him then they should do that. She said that it wasn't my "job" to negotiate this, and they should know this; it was up to the 3 of them to work this out.

I can see now (with the Triangulation info & the NF T's email) that they've once again put me in the middle of their troubles with my son--and who knows? Maybe they are using my BPD son as the excuse to not deal with problems of their own, or problems they may have with my husband and me, triangulating him as well. I'm waiting to hear from his OutPatient Therapist, and am working on a S.E.T. response to my D-I-L's email using this information as a basis for how I handle it. I do think it really isn't so much my non-son making this demand for a drug test; my son and I had been emailing, and then my D-I-L stepped in and emailed me the response about BPD son once I mentioned he might come to the event. Although she told me that my non-son agreed with this request (and I doubt he could do anything else once she made the decision), I do believe it originates with her.

And though I do want my sons to get along, my BPD son was the one to suggest that he might go to the party, that he might be ready to be friends again with his brother, and that he wanted to see his new nephew for the first time. My fears here are that now that my BPD son is making that progress socially, once he finds out about the drug-test requirement for being there, not only will he decline to go but he will be very angry at what he will perceive as his brother & D-I-L being "parental" with him once again; the crux of my BPD son's problems with them. The possibility of them moving on and having a relationship once more will be set back pretty severely at that point... .

[Rapt Reader]

I just heard from my BPD son's OutPatient Therapist (who has been working with him for about 4 years with his drug addiction problems, and now his recovery from them). Interestingly enough, she has validated my reticence to even inform him of his brother and S-I-L's drug-test requirement. It's nice to know that I wasn't being an overprotective mother or enabler in some sense. Here is the (edited) gist of her advice to me:

"I agree with your decision to avoid the matter of humiliating BPD son by following D-I-L’s demand for a urine screen. I would agree with NF T on encouraging him to “get among people” a bit in this setting, but I feel that the visit cannot happen with the urine screen demand. Setting him up with the demanded Urine screen would dismiss the work he and I have been doing lately—recognizing the setting of living with two loving parents that has been key to his sobriety--your (& Husband’s) acceptance has set the stage for me to help him with self-acceptance and decrease his harsh self –judgment and criticism (often the unnoticed killers of many a recovering addict's sobriety). In other words, cultivating recovery beyond clean urine/physical sobriety .

The “you have to pass my test” scenario that D-I-L has set up would undo a year of our work (and undermine the acceptance and love that comes from you and Husband). Please don’t do it, Rapt Reader. Please feel free to share any of this you may need to, but be careful–-persons of a demanding nature like this are not likely to benefit from information that was not personally requested by them–-and even then there is usually hostility. I would ask that you share my thoughts with Husband. I would not tell BPD son of the demands from D-I-L, including her threatening to withhold your grandson from you, unless he suddenly insists that he is going with you. He knows that you, especially, and Husband (more recently in his awareness) have his best interests at heart. He does not need further proof of that, and you do not need to witness the hurt from the rejection that he may or may not express."

I include this advice from my son's Therapist in case it helps anyone else here with similar problems, and the insights she has given me about people (especially those with BPD) recovering from drug addictions is valuable to pass on, I think... .

[Thursday]

Gosh rapt- your DIL sound pretty awful... . and I'm glad your therapist gave you such solid advice.

I also wonder if you could have a candid talk with your non son, not to try to persuade him to get your DIL to relent her position but to try to give him the info that might allow his compassion and empathy for his brother to kick in. Remember, your non son has legitimate feelings about his brother's addiction and the harm it has done AND remember that your non-son loses his brother if he cannot find another way to feel about him. Has your BPD son apologized to your non son for the impact of his behaviors when he was in his addiction (forget which step this is... . and sorry I can't recall if your BPDson is working a 12 step program.)

So important, most folks really need the apology because of the trauma they have typically been inflicted with due to the addict.

If the feelings are strictly those of your DIL, I would want my non-son to be able to examine the impact his wife's demands could have on his brother and if he (the non son) is being unduly influenced, I would hope that he can put this in it's proper place. Which might very well end up being with his wife... . this IS his wife and the mother of his son we are talking about here.

Is it possible that your son isn't really cool with what his wife is proposing but doesn't want to rock his own boat to be more reasonable with his brother's feelings? It seems like that would be a horrible place to be, caught between his FOO and his marriage.

Maybe this upcoming event isn't going to happen the way you were hoping but there will be other opportunities if you play it close to the cuff. We have recently seen ourselves how long some folks hold onto their bitterness about an addict's activities and behaviors when in their addiction.

Frankly, it really does sound like your DIL is very unreasonable (   and controlling. Or is she justified? Did your BPD son do something bad to her (such as steal from her or bringing drugs into her home are a few things I can think of... . )

If you son is doing a 12 step program none of this will be new to him (other people's hurt feelings and how folks hold onto their resentments) and maybe you could bring him into the conversation in that way. I sort of always want the truth to be on the table and confront the issues but it does sound like your BPDson could really be set back by this harshness from DIL.

Good luck!

Thursday

PS- your son's therapist sounds wonderful and enlightened!

[Rapt Reader]

I appreciate your insights and advice, Thursday  

My uBPD D-I-L is typical of High Functioning BPD; all her frustrations and anger are focused outward (usually towards me, actually). She does have the tendency to be controlling and harsh in her judgments, and her anger at my BPD son are targeted at his "inappropriateness" in his comments and actions during the time of his addictions. He has actually not much of a relationship with her at all (never did), as we live 5 hours away from her and my non-son, and has never "hurt" either of them in any way except for this "inappropriateness". I see that tendency to be more from his BPD & Social Anxiety (which they won't acknowledge; they want to see him as a junkie and a loser, and that's what they attribute everything to) rather than drugs, but I can't get them to see that. I've given them the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Randi Kreger about a year ago, but I do not believe either have read it. I was hoping my non-son would read it, see his wife, besides his Low Functioning BPD brother, and get some insights into helping his own self in that relationship, too. Hasn't happened  

Her judgments and restrictions on my BPD son at first (before the baby) were justified by her because she said that my non-son was "hurt" by my BPD son's unwillingness to defer to his younger brother's "advice" and "suggestions" for how to fix his problems. And please know that I know that my son's advice is really her advice; he never did and said this stuff till she came along (about 11 years ago). Since my D-I-L is has a MSW-Early Childhood Development (?), she gets offended because I follow my BPD son's Therapists' advice all the time rather than her advice, which is always eschewed by the Therapists when I run it by them for their opinions.

She gets offended by my "disrespecting" her expertise (which is always predicated on "tough love", and has been using my baby-visiting privileges as a way to express her anger about that. I've been navigating that minefield very well lately, but today's tangle has stirred it up again. I'm not too sure what my BPD son would apologize to them for (he's already done his apologies to my husband and me, and his friends); he's never done one thing to them except dust off their demands on him to act this way or that, which gets them very angry. But, I do believe that in one of their very few phone conversations since my BPD son's sobriety, he did make peace with his younger brother. He hasn't, however, spoken to D-I-L since then.

I appreciate your advice about the AA program; my BPD son doesn't go anymore (his one-on-one Therapies right now take up his time), but did during/after his first 2 "normal" rehabs prior to the DDx Program. For some reason, the act of being a part of all of that was too tempting to him and just didn't work for him at that time; in the future I know that his Therapists would like him to try again.

I will try to figure out an email to my D-I-L and non-son about this situation, and see if there is a way for them to see that requiring BPD son to have a urine test to prove to them his sobriety is something that will damage any relationship they will ever have with him, perhaps irreparably... .

[Rapt Reader]

This is just a quick update: I was able to write an email to my D-I-L, based on some of the information given to me by my BPD son's OutPatient Therapist. I used S.E.T. with the T. being "truth, truth, truth... . " 

Anyway, miraculously it all went well, and my D-I-L emailed back telling me she was happy that I was so understanding of their position and so honest with them. She did tell me the basis of their grievances with my BPD son: "It's not just BPD son's feelings and wishes and wants - it's also about non-son and what he wants for his family and life. I think often (and not just in our family's case) the individual with the diagnosis/addiction/"problem" gets the get out of jail free card, and others have to appear and disappear (engage/unengage) based on the situation any given day."

It is a valid concern, one which we all as a family will have to deal with. I don't disagree with her, and she did also tell me that she would try to read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" so I'm hoping that happens. I would love it if my son reads it, too; maybe he will if she does.

And, oh yeah... . BPD son has opted to not go with us (with some mild encouragement from me), and D-I-L and non-son are very relieved about that. It's too bad that their reconciliation will have to wait, but I've already Radically Accepted that my family is not what I'd always hoped it would turn out to be, so it's cool 

[jellibeans]

glad that all worked out better than anticipated... . whew... . on to the next challenge... . you handled that well!

[PinkieV]

I appreciate your insights and advice, Thursday  

My uBPD D-I-L is typical of High Functioning BPD; all her frustrations and anger are focused outward (usually towards me, actually). She does have the tendency to be controlling and harsh in her judgments, and her anger at my BPD son are targeted at his "inappropriateness" in his comments and actions during the time of his addictions. He has actually not much of a relationship with her at all (never did), as we live 5 hours away from her and my non-son, and has never "hurt" either of them in any way except for this "inappropriateness". I see that tendency to be more from his BPD & Social Anxiety (which they won't acknowledge; they want to see him as a junkie and a loser, and that's what they attribute everything to) rather than drugs, but I can't get them to see that. I've given them the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Randi Kreger about a year ago, but I do not believe either have read it. I was hoping my non-son would read it, see his wife, besides his Low Functioning BPD brother, and get some insights into helping his own self in that relationship, too. Hasn't happened  

Her judgments and restrictions on my BPD son at first (before the baby) were justified by her because she said that my non-son was "hurt" by my BPD son's unwillingness to defer to his younger brother's "advice" and "suggestions" for how to fix his problems. And please know that I know that my son's advice is really her advice; he never did and said this stuff till she came along (about 11 years ago). Since my D-I-L is has a MSW-Early Childhood Development (?), she gets offended because I follow my BPD son's Therapists' advice all the time rather than her advice, which is always eschewed by the Therapists when I run it by them for their opinions.

She gets offended by my "disrespecting" her expertise (which is always predicated on "tough love", and has been using my baby-visiting privileges as a way to express her anger about that. I've been navigating that minefield very well lately, but today's tangle has stirred it up again. I'm not too sure what my BPD son would apologize to them for (he's already done his apologies to my husband and me, and his friends); he's never done one thing to them except dust off their demands on him to act this way or that, which gets them very angry. But, I do believe that in one of their very few phone conversations since my BPD son's sobriety, he did make peace with his younger brother. He hasn't, however, spoken to D-I-L since then.

I appreciate your advice about the AA program; my BPD son doesn't go anymore (his one-on-one Therapies right now take up his time), but did during/after his first 2 "normal" rehabs prior to the DDx Program. For some reason, the act of being a part of all of that was too tempting to him and just didn't work for him at that time; in the future I know that his Therapists would like him to try again.

I will try to figure out an email to my D-I-L and non-son about this situation, and see if there is a way for them to see that requiring BPD son to have a urine test to prove to them his sobriety is something that will damage any relationship they will ever have with him, perhaps irreparably... .

As a parent there are things you can't know that go on with your children. I'm the only girl with three brothers, two of which are or were uBPD. I'm the good girl, the daughter that took care of everything. My brothers were in and out of trouble and time and again their lives were in pieces. Who got the attention?  Who got the excuses? Who called me horrible names and threatened to sue me after my parents died and there was not millions of dollars waiting for them?  The uBPDs.

It's interesting that you use ds for your BPD son and non for the other. My first thought was "is he not dear to you"?  Has he spent years trying to do the right thing?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean or pick a fight. You have a tough job as a parent. It's very personal to me when parents complain about their non kids. We're just trying to do the right thing and be responsible adults

[Thursday]

Hi again Rapt-

I am happy to hear that things have resolved easily. Also wanted to apologize for my "one size fits all" assumptions (projections) about your two son's dynamic. Over here, my BPDSD's addiction happened under our roof and she affected everyone negatively with her out of control behavior.

Thursday

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

PinkieV

The ds stand for diagnosed son... . not dear I believe. I am sorry you have so many memories of your childhood that were not pleasan. I also had three brother while I was growing up and it can be pretty tough.

[PyneappleDays]

JMO

They are not ready. They are adults and probably need to do some one on one first to open the communication for a first visit between them but keep talking to them. You as a parent feel the need to moderate a bit.  I try to do the same allllll the time between my daughter and her father and brother who see her as an embarrassment.   They are starting slowly to talk and she see her father maybe 2 a year when he flies in   Pushing things on all sides is a little too soon. It's taken a couple of years to get to this point.  As for the family event, I even need to gear up and prepare myself for family gatherings never mind my BPD daughter with anxiety.  My family had problems with drug use.  I suspect they still do on some level.  I never seen them unless it was on my terms and never left them alone with daughter.  She never seen them high or drunk until she started living on her own.  I always left functions when I started seeing signs.  It drove me insane.  For this they think I'm a snot and stuck up.

I think if the brothers could be civil the families would gear down their guards a bit.

PyneappleDays

[Rapt Reader]

It's interesting that you use ds for your BPD son and non for the other. My first thought was "is he not dear to you"?  Has he spent years trying to do the right thing?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean or pick a fight. You have a tough job as a parent. It's very personal to me when parents complain about their non kids. We're just trying to do the right thing and be responsible adults

Hi, PinkieV  

Thanks for your insights; they are very helpful to me as the mother of two sons, one of whom is BPD, and the other who is not... .

I actually always refer to my "BPD son" as that (never "ds", with the "BPD" standing for Borderline Personality Disorder, with no "dear" implied   My non-son is just that, non-diagnosed as anything... . Both of them are very dear to me, and I can understand my younger, non-diagnosed son feeling resentful towards his older, BPD brother who has taken so much of our attention over the years. It is a real source of pain for him, and I do know it needs to be taken into consideration (though actually it's his wife, whom I suspect is BPD herself, who causes me such angst at times). I appreciate your point of view as the non-diagnosed sibling yourself; it's helpful for this conversation  

JMO

They are not ready. They are adults and probably need to do some one on one first to open the communication for a first visit between them but keep talking to them. You as a parent feel the need to moderate a bit.

You are probably right, PyneappleDays. They have been civil on the phone the very few times they've talked since my BPD son's sobriety, but nothing extensive or related to problem-solving (neither, I suspect, is certain how to navigate their past history together, which is painful for each of them). I suspect some communication by phone would be necessary before they can meet in person. I do know that my D-I-L is only looking out for my non-son's well-being (as well as her baby's), and as mother of both sons I do, as you say, feel the need to moderate a bit. Gotta work on that, and maybe just get out of the way  

[madmom]

I am wondering if you and your son/DIL have access to skype or facetime---something like that.   Both of your sons could have a little chat and they could show off the baby in real time when they are ready.   It could be short, sweet and a beginning of a building of trust with face to face contact, but not needing to be in the same room and have so much pressure to be together.  Just a thought.  I know I enjoy facetime with my family members, and it makes them seem not so far away.

[Rapt Reader]

I am happy to hear that things have resolved easily. Also wanted to apologize for my "one size fits all" assumptions (projections) about your two son's dynamic. Over here, my BPDSD's addiction happened under our roof and she affected everyone negatively with her out of control behavior.

No apology needed, Thursday 

You actually were right in a certain sense; in subsequent friendly emails between myself and my D-I-L over the last couple of days (not mentioned here), she does mention that my non-son has issues with his BPD brother that need to be worked out. And they are all very much like the things PinkieV mentioned, things I really didn't realize were as painful for him as I'd thought. Since my BPD son didn't steal from or otherwise violate my non-son, I was unaware of a need for an apology from him to his younger brother. I see now--prodded by PinkieV, and reinforced by D-I-L's emails--that eventually the 2 of them will need a heart-to-heart conversation with apologies for things that have hurt each of them.

I am wondering if you and your son/DIL have access to skype or facetime---something like that.   Both of your sons could have a little chat and they could show off the baby in real time when they are ready.   It could be short, sweet and a beginning of a building of trust with face to face contact, but not needing to be in the same room and have so much pressure to be together.  Just a thought.  I know I enjoy facetime with my family members, and it makes them seem not so far away.

Yeah, tr, we do have Skype (but have never really used it yet). Your thoughtful idea is very good, and since BPD son and non-son are way more technologically adept than I am, I think I might encourage them gently with suggestions that they play with this new-fangled contraption    so that my younger son can show off his baby, and my older son can finally see him in person. I do think that it could be a way for them to tippy-toe into a better relationship if they are willing to try. Good idea, tr... .

I would like to thank everyone for their helpful and thoughtful insights and advice