She pushed me over the edge... and I reacted

[StayOrLeave15]

I am the farthest thing from a violent person.  I abhor violence, especially against women.  So here I am, deeply ashamed of myself. 

After a rough week, my uBPDgf and I were having a great day together.  Talking, laughing, loving each other.  Feeling like we were in heaven.  Then she decided to go digging.  Starts asking questions about my ex that I broke up with two years ago.  Decides to go onto her social media to look for pictures from 3 years ago that I have no control over, and start writing comments on them.  I was upset with her, and told her we were leaving the restaurant where we were having drinks. 

On the street she continues to push me.  Ask why these pictures are here.  They are 3 years old and I can't control them.  Starts with some very abusive words, and won't stop.

Usually I am patient.  Usually I have really good discipline.  But tonight I didn't.  She frustrated me so much, and I felt so attacked for having done nothing wrong, that I grabbed her arm, pulled her hard toward me and then pushed her away even harder.  The next thing I know, she is on the ground crying.  Three different people came up to her to ask if they should call the police.  She said no.

I am beside myself.  What have I just done? This goes against all of my values and my upbringing.  I have been in many relationships, that had their fair share of arguments, but never reacted violently, or been in any type of situation even close to this.  So here I am.  Confessing to this community my wrongdoing and telling you all how ashamed I am.  I can't even look at myself in the mirror. 

I am on the Staying board. I am committed to this girl and I love her.  But when she brings out the worst in me - a part of me that never existed before and SHOULD NOT EXIST - I wonder what in God's name I am doing.  She brings out the best and the worst - that comes from her black and white thinking and splitting.  I consider myself a rational, disciplined person.  But if these reactions are coming out of me, I do not know if I can sustain this relationship, as much as I may love this girl. 

I think that if I continue to "pass her tests" and act rationally toward her she will trust me, and change.  But I think I need to take a serious inventory here, and see that she a pwBPD, and realize that I don't have it in me to handle her intense emotions.  I am in love with this girl, and want to be with her forever.  But when her irrational jealousy brings out the ABSOLUTE WORST in me, of which I am DEEPLY ASHAMED, I really need to take a personal inventory and figure out what I am doing.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Narellan]

Quote: " I am on the Staying board. I am committed to this girl and I love her.  But when she brings out the worst in me - a part of me that never existed before and SHOULD NOT EXIST - I wonder what in God's name I am doing.  She brings out the best and the worst - that comes from her black and white thinking and splitting.  I consider myself a rational, disciplined person.  But if these reactions are coming out of me, I do not know if I can sustain this relationship, as much as I may love this girl "

This is what she lives for. She thrives on drama and chaos.

I can understand your frustration. How long have you been together?

She was pushing all your buttons and it triggered you. Whilst I don't condone aggression either, I see how frustrated you were. Is she ever aggressive toward you?

I don't know how you can avoid this type of behaviour. What she does is out of your control, you can only control you.

Unfortunately now she's got a buzz out of such a reaction, she will use it again and again. What will you do next time she triggers you? Did you talk about it afterward and make a plan?

As much as you love this girl, it's sounding like the relationship is getting toxic. I'd like to encourage you to read through some of our resources here on dealing with BPD behaviours. If you're seeing a T, I encourage you to talk with them about this incident, and ways you can prevent it happening again.

Don't be too hard on yourself stayorleave15, but know that this will likely continue now it has entered the relationship. You need to find outlets for your frustration when it occurs again. Peace  

[StayOrLeave15]

Thank you Narellan.

We have been together for six months.  I have both an individual therapist for my history of depression and we have been going to couples therapy for a few weeks. 

She has hit me before, but I consider it negligible because I am so much stronger than her and it doesn't hurt me.  Her aggression and abuse comes in the emotional form.  Calling me a liar.  Telling me everything I've done wrong.  Turning completely cold and angry at me for no apparent reason. 

We kissed and made up afterward (I know I should have been taken away by the police) but she entered one of her rational states telling me my behavior was unacceptable.  And now that this has happened, she has it to hold over me, anytime she gets upset about something. 

I believe that I have the discipline to control myself.  I feel so sick to my stomach right now from what I've done and cannot sleep because of it, so I don't believe it will happen again. 

Quote: "As much as you love this girl, it's sounding like the relationship is getting toxic."

As far as the above goes, I think you are right.  And I can't even begin to say how much this hurts my heart.  It isn't the first time she has behaved this way, but both her and my behavior were at an extreme this evening.  I am so sad because I think about just hours earlier we were having a wonderful day talking about how much we love each other and our future together.  I guess that's what a relationship with a pwBPD is.  One minute everything is great, the next it is the worst disaster you could ever imagine. 

[thicker skin]

Yikes... . Narellan is bang on the money.

She was looking to pick a fight with you and much as I don't agree with using force unless it's in self defence, it can be very hard to do the right thing when an irrational being is pressing all of your buttons and twisting you up.

I was arrested once... . I did retaliate, too. However, when I fessed up, started talking about incidents over the years and the hours that had lead to my arrest, the police were very understanding. I was told, very frankly, that we all have a limit and he overstepped it a long time ago. They had zero respect for the way HE behaved.

He has had me arrested since, but being scratched whilst trying prevent someone from leaving your company isn't assault. It's self defence. He played the victim nicely whilst I was carted off... . Victims don't keep seeking out the perpetrator, throwing punches at them if they've quietly laid down in another room. Leaving that scenario and being restrained was not a crime.

This is one area where I'd advise you to think very carefully. She will keep goading you. She will want answers to her unending questions. It will fry your brain. She will take you to places you didn't know existed and I'm not talking the darker side of the moon.

Be your own best friend. Don't negotiate with terrorists. Walk when you feel the insanity rising. She wants to prove how bad you are, not how good you are.

[bruceli]

I am the farthest thing from a violent person.  I abhor violence, especially against women.  So here I am, deeply ashamed of myself. 

After a rough week, my uBPDgf and I were having a great day together.  Talking, laughing, loving each other.  Feeling like we were in heaven.  Then she decided to go digging.  Starts asking questions about my ex that I broke up with two years ago.  Decides to go onto her social media to look for pictures from 3 years ago that I have no control over, and start writing comments on them.  I was upset with her, and told her we were leaving the restaurant where we were having drinks. 

On the street she continues to push me.  Ask why these pictures are here.  They are 3 years old and I can't control them.  Starts with some very abusive words, and won't stop.

Usually I am patient.  Usually I have really good discipline.  But tonight I didn't.  She frustrated me so much, and I felt so attacked for having done nothing wrong, that I grabbed her arm, pulled her hard toward me and then pushed her away even harder.  The next thing I know, she is on the ground crying.  Three different people came up to her to ask if they should call the police.  She said no.

I am beside myself.  What have I just done? This goes against all of my values and my upbringing.  I have been in many relationships, that had their fair share of arguments, but never reacted violently, or been in any type of situation even close to this.  So here I am.  Confessing to this community my wrongdoing and telling you all how ashamed I am.  I can't even look at myself in the mirror. 

I am on the Staying board. I am committed to this girl and I love her.  But when she brings out the worst in me - a part of me that never existed before and SHOULD NOT EXIST - I wonder what in God's name I am doing.  She brings out the best and the worst - that comes from her black and white thinking and splitting.  I consider myself a rational, disciplined person.  But if these reactions are coming out of me, I do not know if I can sustain this relationship, as much as I may love this girl. 

I think that if I continue to "pass her tests" and act rationally toward her she will trust me, and change.  But I think I need to take a serious inventory here, and see that she a pwBPD, and realize that I don't have it in me to handle her intense emotions.  I am in love with this girl, and want to be with her forever.  But when her irrational jealousy brings out the ABSOLUTE WORST in me, of which I am DEEPLY ASHAMED, I really need to take a personal inventory and figure out what I am doing.

A classic example of the push/pull.  IME she will forever "test."  In the same place right now my self.

[formflier]

Stay or leave,

you are right to do some personal inventory.

Please spend some time on these boards looking at guys (such as me) that are staying because of kids. 

Please do some thinking about the kind of relationship you want for the rest of your life.  Notice I didn't say think about this particular person... .

[StayOrLeave15]

Thank you all for your responses.  The main thing that i take away from this, is that my uBPDgf fits the classic pattern that they are so afraid of abandonment that they will do everything possible to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's as if when things are going well she needs to find something to make it all fall apart.  We had a WONDERFUL day together yesterday.  We were watching the hockey finals and she starts asking questions about my ex (who is from 2012... . and which she already knows the answers to because she looks at her pictures frequently).  I tell her who cares about the past, it's just you and me together and let's enjoy our night.  She insists on pulling up pictures that are three years old and commenting on them in appropriately, while getting very upset in the process.   

Her justification for all this was "You have unnecessary friends on Facebook (females) that need to go."  She says that "I don't understand how much having these girls around hurts her."  She says once I've dealt with this (deleting them) she won't get upset anymore. 

I think if I believe this I am lying to myself.  There will always be something else for her to get upset about.  When I said she "got upset" I mean that a switch was flipped from her being easygoing, laughing, loving, and having a good time with me to angry, cold, and making demands.  Maybe the jealousy from her insecurity will go away if I delete the girls she wants from Facebook (EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE ALL JUST FRIENDS). 

I'm beginning to feel like a crazy person now that I am reading this out loud from typing it that I am staying in this relationship.  There will always be something for her to harp on.  And to test me with.  And thus control me.  This girl is my lover, my best friend, and my whole life.  We spend all of our time together and talk about everything.  I trust her with things I did not tell the above mentioned ex (who was a much more rational girl) things in the several years we were together.  She is beautiful, and I always just want to hold her in my arms.  I love her.  And then she pulls one of these.

I'm new to this guys... . Is this what I've signed up for? Is this the nature of a relationship with a pwBPD?

[StayOrLeave15]

Another quick note... .

After we reconciled she looked at me, with the angry stare she gets when in an episode, and said, "Give me your phone, we're deleting them now."  And I let her. 

So because I reacted badly and could not control myself to her manipulation, she got what she wanted.  I feel like garbage for both what I did to her and that she was able to hold me hostage by my emotions to get what she wanted.

[Pou]

You are on staying board.  I can tell you from my experience that my wife who has NPD did the same thing.  The difference back then, was that I used to take it out on myself (hitting myself - yes, that was pretty dumb and stopped doing it after i figured out her gig).  Fast forward to today, I never hit women because I was raised by 2 older sisters and 3 older female cousins… my wife accused me strangled her and that never happened.  This is after she went out to pick up her mom from airport and away from me for 6 hours and with a light redness on her neck (not sure how she got it), the police actually took her words for real and arrested me.  If you search my posts, you will know the rest of the story.  So, if you decide to work it out, just know how things can possibly get worse.  In the meantime, I would encourage you to stay clear headed and don't lay a finger on her.  It is not worth loosing your life and reputation over a toxic relationship.  I am an old dog now, so I no longer believe in love… it is like the santa clause.  it is good to believe it is there, but probably not.  Good luck.

[formflier]

Another quick note... .

After we reconciled she looked at me, with the angry stare she gets when in an episode, and said, "Give me your phone, we're deleting them now."  And I let her.  Oh dude... . you got played.  OK... . this is over... . so going back to try to fix it is no good... . just more drama.  I'm going to try to get some time to write a better response.  Hang in there.

So because I reacted badly and could not control myself to her manipulation, she got what she wanted.  I feel like garbage for both what I did to her and that she was able to hold me hostage by my emotions to get what she wanted.

[formflier]

I'm new to this guys... . Is this what I've signed up for? Is this the nature of a relationship with a pwBPD?

Yep... . this is exactly what you have signed up for.  Nobody on this board can tell you to stay or to go... . but you really need to do some personal inventory... . and when you say things about what you write about your life sounding crazy... . after you read it.  Think long and hard about how to change that.  Very important... . lots of clear thinking before changing tactics.  More to come from me

[formflier]

  She says once I've dealt with this (deleting them) she won't get upset anymore. 

I think if I believe this I am lying to myself.  There will always be something else for her to get upset about.  When I said she "got upset" I mean that a switch was flipped from her being easygoing, laughing, loving, and having a good time with me to angry, cold, and making demands.  Maybe the jealousy from her insecurity will go away if I delete the girls she wants from Facebook (EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE ALL JUST FRIENDS). 

OK... . please remember this incident very clearly... . for a long time.  It will go one of two ways.

1.  She has deleted them... . and will keep her promise and never be upset again.  And if this turns out to be true over the next few weeks and months... . you are on the wrong board... she really was just upset about the pics.

2.  She will find something else to be upset about.  It will you YOUR fault that she is upset.  That way she didn't break her promise.  If this happens... . then I want you to do some long hard thinking about radically accepting that she is a disordered person (of some sort).  She will never think or act like you.

Please spend some time looking through posts and stories of guys trying to have a family with people like this.  Lots of tough situations to deal with.

[Pou]

[quote/]

OK... . please remember this incident very clearly... . for a long time.  It will go one of two ways.

1.  She has deleted them... . and will keep her promise and never be upset again.  And if this turns out to be true over the next few weeks and months... . you are on the wrong board... she really was just upset about the pics.

2.  She will find something else to be upset about.  It will you YOUR fault that she is upset.  That way she didn't break her promise.  If this happens... . then I want you to do some long hard thinking about radically accepting that she is a disordered person (of some sort).  She will never think or act like you.

Please spend some time looking through posts and stories of guys trying to have a family with people like this.  Lots of tough situations to deal with.[/quote]
formflier… truly the words of wisdom for a young man.  Back in my days … not many people know about BPD/NPD … I was puzzled by many little things ... and mistaken PD qualities as "love".  For example, my NPD wife was also very jealous of my ex, she tracked her webpage down and apparently visited it so often that my ex contacted me and asked if I know my wife, because her website was visited so often by this IP address from this person… I defended my wife and said it was normal for her to be curious.  So I thought … it was normal… perhaps it would be to a certain extend.  Behonest with you… looking back, although healthy dose of jealousy was expected in a blossoming relationship, but when your "girl friend" use that to turn around to "control" your behaviors ... then that is where it become dangerously abnormal.  What this should tell you is that, she is using a "tactic" to control you… oh, how I wish I see it back then … well, I didn't and I thought it was flattering for her to be jealous.  Now looking back, I was in a fog … I was in love … completely in love and naively thought as long as I give her the love that I thought I deserve that same will be returned.  Well … look at it this way, divorce rate is over 50% and just to think the BPD exists in probably a fraction of that ... and yet it is over 50%.  So marriage without BPD is already tough … just think to get into it with knowingly one partner has BPD.  I think the key is really know what you are dealing with and you will have to make that choice.  I don't think there is a such thing as making a right or wrong choice … I think you are the only one who can make that decision for yourself and there will be no judgements from others.  By knowing what "could" happen will allow you to anticipate unimaginable circumstances and perhaps better in helping you control your emotions from reacting physically and/or dealing with it better emotionally.  I wish you well.

[StayOrLeave15]

OK... . please remember this incident very clearly... . for a long time.  It will go one of two ways.

1.  She has deleted them... . and will keep her promise and never be upset again.  And if this turns out to be true over the next few weeks and months... . you are on the wrong board... she really was just upset about the pics.

2.  She will find something else to be upset about.  It will you YOUR fault that she is upset.  That way she didn't break her promise.  If this happens... . then I want you to do some long hard thinking about radically accepting that she is a disordered person (of some sort).  She will never think or act like you.

Please spend some time looking through posts and stories of guys trying to have a family with people like this.  Lots of tough situations to deal with.

Formflier and Pou,

Your responses are really helpful and supportive.  Let me add a few more details. 

This is not the first argument we have had over social media/pictures.  She has gotten angry many, many times over who I am friends with on FB, who I follow on Instagram, and whose numbers are in my phone.  I have already made many compromises of cutting back contact with females, but it is never enough. 

She has also acted very irrationally in the past.  For example, one night out we were having a nice evening and again she decided to look at pictures of my ex.  My ex has some of these posted publicly - there are no feelings remaining between us, she just doesn't care enough to delete pictures of us or looks at them as part of her life but a part she has moved on from, as have I.  I tried to stay calm and rational but she was too far gone. 

Her interpretation of there being pictures of my ex and me out on the Internet to mean that somehow "I don't love her."  Over and over she said, "You don't love me. You don't love me.  I'm going to find someone that loves me."  She proceeds to call her ex-boyfriend, who she broke up with 4 years ago and is now a married man, at 1 am and say ":)o you love me?" He still has feelings for her but before he could answer her I took the phone from her and ended the call.  I did nothing wrong and she did this to me.  This should have been a red flag a while ago.

There have been many other similar episodes.  Meaningless interactions, even from the past, with females have put her into an episode. 

Pou - it really feels like love.  When she is not in a rage/jealous state she is rational, understanding, smart, funny, not to mention I am incredibly attracted to her.  But what am I doing? She is controlling me by my emotions.  I feel castrated.  I clearly have dependency issues.  I think I am staying together with her because I know I would probably fall into a depression if I were alone and I would continue to be my own prisoner thinking about her all day and imagining her in someone else's arms.  As much as she tortures me, I can't help but want to be with her.  And I really don't know if we want to be together long-term.  But the longer I stay, the harder it will be to leave.  I am addicted and dependent.  She is a drug that I need to keep getting another hit of.  Yet I am tormented.  A couple weeks ago I didn't know what BPD was.  Now it is running my life. 

[formflier]

People with BPD usually don't respect boundaries.  It's up to nons to set and enforce them.

Let me give you a recent example from my life... . that happened a few months ago.

Similar to you... . I was always getting in trouble for stuff she found on my phone, in my texts, in my gmail... . you name it.  She would make up crap about what it "meant"... . I would explain... . around and around we would go.

Prior to this I had taken a stance that married people don't keep secrets from each other... . we have each others passwords... . etc etc

Well... I locked my phone... put a good password on my email... . and it took a week or so for her to figure it out.

Once it started to dawn on her... . she would get more and more upset... and then act like it didn't bother her. 

There had also been some incidences of her using my work email to send email and she used a work credit card.

So... I had some "legit" issues I was putting a stop to.  I was also implementing stricter policies at my work... . about security. 

So... . when the questions came about why.  I would reference the need for better security... . and drop it.  No arguing...   Well... . there was a little... . but compared to the past I was pretty good.

Anyway... . I had decided that this was a limit I would stick with.  She cranked up the pressure... . I didn't budge.

We even go to the point where she said that there would be be no touching... . no sex... . etc etc.

I stayed even and didn't take the bait for the argument.

She dropped it after a month or month and a half.  In marriage counseling she said she decided to drop it because after she thought about it... . it seemed "silly" to her.

I've not brought it up since.

I'm not saying this will work for you... . but... . you need limits... . boundaries for you... . not for the other person.  You need to be prepared to stick with them... . no matter what the cost.  pwBPD will test you.

OK... . please remember this incident very clearly... . for a long time.  It will go one of two ways.

1.  She has deleted them... . and will keep her promise and never be upset again.  And if this turns out to be true over the next few weeks and months... . you are on the wrong board... she really was just upset about the pics.

2.  She will find something else to be upset about.  It will you YOUR fault that she is upset.  That way she didn't break her promise.  If this happens... . then I want you to do some long hard thinking about radically accepting that she is a disordered person (of some sort).  She will never think or act like you.

Please spend some time looking through posts and stories of guys trying to have a family with people like this.  Lots of tough situations to deal with.

Formflier and Pou,

Your responses are really helpful and supportive.  Let me add a few more details. 

This is not the first argument we have had over social media/pictures.  She has gotten angry many, many times over who I am friends with on FB, who I follow on Instagram, and whose numbers are in my phone.  I have already made many compromises of cutting back contact with females, but it is never enough. 

She has also acted very irrationally in the past.  For example, one night out we were having a nice evening and again she decided to look at pictures of my ex.  My ex has some of these posted publicly - there are no feelings remaining between us, she just doesn't care enough to delete pictures of us or looks at them as part of her life but a part she has moved on from, as have I.  I tried to stay calm and rational but she was too far gone. 

Her interpretation of there being pictures of my ex and me out on the Internet to mean that somehow "I don't love her."  Over and over she said, "You don't love me. You don't love me.  I'm going to find someone that loves me."  She proceeds to call her ex-boyfriend, who she broke up with 4 years ago and is now a married man, at 1 am and say ":)o you love me?" He still has feelings for her but before he could answer her I took the phone from her and ended the call.  I did nothing wrong and she did this to me.  This should have been a red flag a while ago.

There have been many other similar episodes.  Meaningless interactions, even from the past, with females have put her into an episode. 

Pou - it really feels like love.  When she is not in a rage/jealous state she is rational, understanding, smart, funny, not to mention I am incredibly attracted to her.  But what am I doing? She is controlling me by my emotions.  I feel castrated.  I clearly have dependency issues.  I think I am staying together with her because I know I would probably fall into a depression if I were alone and I would continue to be my own prisoner thinking about her all day and imagining her in someone else's arms.  As much as she tortures me, I can't help but want to be with her.  And I really don't know if we want to be together long-term.  But the longer I stay, the harder it will be to leave.  I am addicted and dependent.  She is a drug that I need to keep getting another hit of.  Yet I am tormented.  A couple weeks ago I didn't know what BPD was.  Now it is running my life. 

[aspiegirl23]

Hi there

If you have only been in the relationship 6 months, then you still have a chance to end it. Being in a rship with a pwBPD is REALLY HARD!

You have to seriously be in love with the person to make it work. You need to know what you are in for. Don't get married and have kids and then reconsider. They will impact you, your family, and they will also impact upon your children if you have them together.

In saying that, it doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means your love life is going to be like a full-time job in a way.

But you can still love them. You can still be in love with them. You can still have the most magical moments, like how you described you were both having on that day. Intense emotions also means they have intense positive emotions, and that can be nice. It can be fun, it can be exciting, it can be loving. It can be all of those things. But it can be devastating, scary, awful at the same time.

Just this morning my BPDh and I woke up happily in love. He has made me cry twice since then and we are not speaking with each other after he told me he hoped I would choke on my toast.

I can give some insight into the other females thing though. I am actually similar to your gf here (I have Asperger's which means I get my own mix of dysregulated emotions, black and white thinking, etc, on top of seeing the dark side of MANY men and having major trust issues).

Can I ask you:

- Is it important to you to have these females as your friends? If so, why? Is it more important than making your gf feel secure with you? (it can be, just wanted you to think about it to give you clues as to what direction you want to go in).

- If you and your ex don't care about those old photos, is there a reason why you cannot ask her to take them down to help your gf feel more secure with you?

- Has your gf had issues in the past with men cheating on her?

- As women, we are constantly being bombarded with how we are meant to be better than we are - better looking, better at this, better at that. We are also bombarded with people who ARE better than us. We are also bombarded with the message that men like to cheat on women - it is everywhere! TV shows, movies, the news, friends, etc. From my upbringing, I believe that most married men dislike their wife and wish they were with someone else. Especially someone prettier. We rarely get a rest from this message.

- You must be important to her. She wants to feel like she is the only woman for you. Is she the only woman for you?

Are you prepared to drop all other women in whatever form they come, to heighten your relationship with this girl?

- She must be extremely scared of the feeling she would experience if you were to like other women as well as/instead of her. Do you want to reassure her or is this too much?

- Sounds to me like you guys were having such a good time, that this made her fear that it would end. Also, the higher the positive emotion she is experiencing, the more she might fear how frightening it will be if she falls from that height to the lowest of lows, so she is just checking that that won't happen and needs a TONNE of reassurance to get there. Like if you are at the top of a tower, your body starts to react on you doesn't it? It starts to make you scared that you will fall, whether you are safe or not. You might want to check that all safety measures are in place and just how safe up there are you really. The more proof there is that you are safe, the safer you will feel. [Note: someone telling you "You're safe" is not as effective as someone showing/proving it to you if your body is shaking with uncontrolled, natural fear of heights].


Basically I guess what I am saying is - is she worth it?

Yes, there will be many other issues, not just this one. But you can still deal with one issue at a time.

[waverider]

Been there done that. Learn something from this. It bothers you more than her.

The issue is not the issue. It is the process, the conflict, that is her draw.

You can address this issue, but she will bring up another, seeking the process again.

Once you see this for what it is, the issue (what ever it is next time) wont get under your skin to the same extent. You will have boundaries in place you can enact before you boil over.

Sometimes you have to step over your own value boundary, before you can truly identify where it is.

Dont beat yourself up too much. She will test you again, make yourself proud by doing better next time.

[goldylamont]

i agree with waverider here that the issue is not the issue. very well put--it is the conflict that she was seeking and in the end, because you are a human being (and not an expert in dealing with pwBPD), you gave her just what she was seeking.

StayOrLeave15 my ex tried to have me believe that i was scary, violent and narcissistic too. I've read threads where pwBPD chuckle about how they push their SOs buttons over and over with the intent of making them explode and then use this outcome against them. You simply fell for one of the oldest tricks in the books. With this new awareness i hope you are better prepared for next time.

Here's something to consider though--things are going to get worse, much worse. As you become better able to handle yourself and stay calm when she tries to push your buttons, you are going to cause her much frustration and probably make her more angry because you aren't participating in the drama. Yes, I am saying that you will anger her by being calm and giving non-abusive responses.

It's a tricky situation and i think there's very few choices you have. One choice recommended often is to remove yourself completely from the argument--just go, try not to make things worse, don't apologize for anything as this will make things worse, just work on your breathing and state calmly that you're leaving, then follow through.

Another way that was helpful to me was to play off your SO's ego when they are devaluing and pushing you like this. And I don't mean to simply taunt or goad them. Just let them know that you know what they are doing, why they are doing it, and that it's not bothering you (even if it is  ). This is riskier because your emotions are so high but honestly i feel that doing this defused the situation better than me tucking tail and trying to run away would. For instance, if you could have stayed calm and when she demanded that you delete all of your fb friends, just let her know--"Hmmm, you know while normally I'd be fine deleting my all of my friends for no reason at all, right now i just really don't feel like it. You know I was reading this article once that talked about controlling people in relationships and how they try to isolate their partners from friends and families because of their own insecurities. Yup! Oh that's what you're doing. You know what, I'm not even mad anymore, the more you tell me to delete my exes the more I see that you are just so truly in love with me! I do appreciate it so much!"  << of course you probably won't get the chance to say all this without interruption, but you get the idea. the key here is the last part, where you let them know that not only are they not triggering you, but actually you can see that they are acting this way because of their own weakness and attraction to *you*.

so i know this is not the normal advice and understandable if it's uncomfortable for some but for me this worked the best. also was when i felt the most aware of the situation. your SO is trying to control you by enraging you so that she can then later hold something against you and be the victim she needs to be at the time. somehow i was able to turn the tables when she saw that i saw through her games and better yet that i was getting satisfaction in watching her try. of course, i wasn't getting satisfaction, just trying to stop the argument without swallowing my pride and being a doormat (or exploding in anger).

[goldylamont]

StayOrLeave15 I also wanted to add that i'm a bit concerned also because i don't think you've seen the worst out of her yet. I've totally been where you are at where you have an amazing day and then your gf acts out, often in public and tries to demean you. It really is terrible. Hang in there and know that you reacted the way you did because you were being abused emotionally. This isn't who you are when you aren't being abused.

Thing is, you're a man and you're bigger than her. From your description I'm sure that you were hurt far more in this altercation than she--but in the eyes of the law this doesn't matter. Not a damn. And for some good reason too since when the reverse is true and a man is abusive, well, this is an even scarier situation. But the laws are skewed against men when the woman instigates things and I'm sure you are aware of this. You have to be very careful.

I just have to be honest--when people in general are this jealous of their SO's ex gfs, making demands to delete all of them from fb--all this is is projection. She's telling you something that I don't think you want to hear, but she's telling you that *she* keeps in touch with exes because *she* wants to cheat with them all the time. If not now, then at another time it will happen. Many of us on the Leaving board have been there and back. But trust me, your gf is at least fantasizing about exes if she's already not in contact with them, and this is her projection onto you about how untrustworthy she is (not you).

And my fear is how you will take this when you finally realize it. Are you prepared to react when your ex isn't raging at you about your FB friends but is telling you how great some other guy is? Shoving it in your face? Lying to your friends, to you? All of this is coming regardless of how well behaved you are.

I hope I am not saying too much. I'd rather you hear it from me and know it's a possibility though before this pops up and surprises you. I can say this--I now know that I am *not* a violent man after I was able to get through so much BS with my ex when she was at her worst. Truly sorry for what you are going through.

[formflier]

I like this explanation.

I'm a "process guy".  That's what I think about at my work... . I think I'm good at it. 

However... . trying to nail down the BPD process is quite frustrating.  Rules seem to change a lot.

I do see the point over the overall process of keeping the other partner "in fear" or on edge.  The process of constantly testing... .

Been there done that. Learn something from this. It bothers you more than her.

The issue is not the issue. It is the process, the conflict, that is her draw.

You can address this issue, but she will bring up another, seeking the process again.

Once you see this for what it is, the issue (what ever it is next time) wont get under your skin to the same extent. You will have boundaries in place you can enact before you boil over.

Sometimes you have to step over your own value boundary, before you can truly identify where it is.

Dont beat yourself up too much. She will test you again, make yourself proud by doing better next time.

[formflier]

The part about things getting worse when you start behaving better... . is incredibly true.  4-5 month ago I would not have believed it.

Then I put some limits in place and got to experience an extinction burst.

Wow! 

I stuck to limits and it played out the way it was predicted.  She eventually dropped the attack.

It was till incredibly frustrating.

[StayOrLeave15]

Wow. I am absolutely terrified to think of things getting worse. 

Aspiegirl23 -

I've always had female friends.  They are important to me and even more so, I really have trouble with the idea of being told what to do in my relationship.  Ultimatums and being held emotionally hostage.   

I understand where you are coming from.  She needs to feel like the only girl that matters.  I feel like I can do that, but not at the cost of my sense of self and being forced to remove harmless people from my life.

Goldylamont, Formflier, and Waverider -

I definitely see that I fell into her trap.  And the idea of her getting worse is scary.  I have been doing a lot of reading about codependency, and I have definitely fallen into that with her.  I am addicted to her.  I thought I love her, but maybe I just love the idea of her.  But I think about her all day, can't wait to talk to her or see her, etc.  Things are good with her and I feel on top of the world.  But lately I only feel good when I am with her.  Because when I'm not, I feel so depressed, realizing what a horrible situation I am in.  Last night after posting we talked for an hour and a half.  During this time I feel good.  Then I wake up, both several times during the night and then this morning, and I am literally sick to my stomach because I realize how difficult this situation is. 

I know I should get out.  But I have such strong feelings for her and I know I will fall into a depression and obsess over her if we are not together.  I've cared deeply for girls in the past, but this situation is on another level.  And I really don't know what to do because I am so drawn to her, she makes me feel so good, and then afterwards it is like coming down from the high of a drug, because either she has done something to hurt me, or I feel my body telling me that this isn't right and I should not take the abuse.

[goldylamont]

StayOrLeave15 i'm realizing now that this thread actually holds a lot of emotional weight for me, which is probably why i've written so much After reflecting i can see that my reaction here has to do with my own experience of feeling pushed over the edge, and all of the fallout that goes along with it.

what happened with your gf, the argument, the grab/push, the ensuing victimization--all of this is a physical manifestation of what is going on with your emotions and sense of self. you are being assaulted emotionally. sometimes you can duck, sometimes you can parry, and other times when the attack on you is too severe you may strike back. i know that all of the realizations you are coming to are very scary indeed. my hope is that by starting to see and accept them that you will be better prepared the next time you feel compromised to behave in ways that you are proud of.

Wow. I am absolutely terrified to think of things getting worse. 

Aspiegirl23 -

I've always had female friends.  They are important to me and even more so, I really have trouble with the idea of being told what to do in my relationship.  Ultimatums and being held emotionally hostage.   

I understand where you are coming from.  She needs to feel like the only girl that matters.  I feel like I can do that, but not at the cost of my sense of self and being forced to remove harmless people from my life.

Sadly, you cannot do this. You can improve your communication and help to trigger her less, but ultimately you have to accept that even if you are able to keep your sense of self that your gf will still have unhealthy emotions. Knowing this, it is very perceptive of you to see that you are losing part of yourself in this exchange. You could get rid of all of your friends to make her feel better and lose yourself completely. Or you could not budge one bit. Either way she is going to feel the way she is going to feel--it has nothing to do with you, you see? So make sure whatever decisions you make to keep this in mind. Acting in your own best interest is actually more beneficial for the both of you.

Goldylamont, Formflier, and Waverider -

I definitely see that I fell into her trap.  And the idea of her getting worse is scary.  I have been doing a lot of reading about codependency, and I have definitely fallen into that with her.  I am addicted to her.  I thought I love her, but maybe I just love the idea of her.  But I think about her all day, can't wait to talk to her or see her, etc.  Things are good with her and I feel on top of the world.  But lately I only feel good when I am with her.  Because when I'm not, I feel so depressed, realizing what a horrible situation I am in.  Last night after posting we talked for an hour and a half.  During this time I feel good.  Then I wake up, both several times during the night and then this morning, and I am literally sick to my stomach because I realize how difficult this situation is. 

I know I should get out.  But I have such strong feelings for her and I know I will fall into a depression and obsess over her if we are not together.  I've cared deeply for girls in the past, but this situation is on another level.  And I really don't know what to do because I am so drawn to her, she makes me feel so good, and then afterwards it is like coming down from the high of a drug, because either she has done something to hurt me, or I feel my body telling me that this isn't right and I should not take the abuse.

consider this whole ordeal as an exercise in life. a test where you are seeking truth. she is like a drug, in the sense that holding the fantasy of her gives you respite from the reality of what is actually happening. your body is on high alert right now. you're body is telling you that you are in emotional danger. i think the most important thing you can do now is to begin to accept and trust the message your body is telling you over any other mixed messages you may get out of your "love". your love is real and it is strong, but it doesn't have a solid foundation of reality to support it and this makes you queasy. just know StayOrLeave15 that no matter what you will *always* have this capacity to love. as you gain wisdom you will be able to ensure this energy is directed to the right people and situations. for now, trust your body and what it is telling you over any thing else. turn these messages into actions to protect yourself and your gf.

[bruceli]

People with BPD usually don't respect boundaries.  It's up to nons to set and enforce them.

Let me give you a recent example from my life... . that happened a few months ago.

Similar to you... . I was always getting in trouble for stuff she found on my phone, in my texts, in my gmail... . you name it.  She would make up crap about what it "meant"... . I would explain... . around and around we would go.

Prior to this I had taken a stance that married people don't keep secrets from each other... . we have each others passwords... . etc etc

Well... I locked my phone... put a good password on my email... . and it took a week or so for her to figure it out.

Once it started to dawn on her... . she would get more and more upset... and then act like it didn't bother her. 

There had also been some incidences of her using my work email to send email and she used a work credit card.

So... I had some "legit" issues I was putting a stop to.  I was also implementing stricter policies at my work... . about security. 

So... . when the questions came about why.  I would reference the need for better security... . and drop it.  No arguing...   Well... . there was a little... . but compared to the past I was pretty good.

Anyway... . I had decided that this was a limit I would stick with.  She cranked up the pressure... . I didn't budge.

We even go to the point where she said that there would be be no touching... . no sex... . etc etc.

I stayed even and didn't take the bait for the argument.

She dropped it after a month or month and a half.  In marriage counseling she said she decided to drop it because after she thought about it... . it seemed "silly" to her.

I've not brought it up since.

I'm not saying this will work for you... . but... . you need limits... . boundaries for you... . not for the other person.  You need to be prepared to stick with them... . no matter what the cost.  pwBPD will test you.

OK... . please remember this incident very clearly... . for a long time.  It will go one of two ways.

1.  She has deleted them... . and will keep her promise and never be upset again.  And if this turns out to be true over the next few weeks and months... . you are on the wrong board... she really was just upset about the pics.

2.  She will find something else to be upset about.  It will you YOUR fault that she is upset.  That way she didn't break her promise.  If this happens... . then I want you to do some long hard thinking about radically accepting that she is a disordered person (of some sort).  She will never think or act like you.

Please spend some time looking through posts and stories of guys trying to have a family with people like this.  Lots of tough situations to deal with.

Formflier and Pou,

Your responses are really helpful and supportive.  Let me add a few more details. 

This is not the first argument we have had over social media/pictures.  She has gotten angry many, many times over who I am friends with on FB, who I follow on Instagram, and whose numbers are in my phone.  I have already made many compromises of cutting back contact with females, but it is never enough. 

She has also acted very irrationally in the past.  For example, one night out we were having a nice evening and again she decided to look at pictures of my ex.  My ex has some of these posted publicly - there are no feelings remaining between us, she just doesn't care enough to delete pictures of us or looks at them as part of her life but a part she has moved on from, as have I.  I tried to stay calm and rational but she was too far gone. 

Her interpretation of there being pictures of my ex and me out on the Internet to mean that somehow "I don't love her."  Over and over she said, "You don't love me. You don't love me.  I'm going to find someone that loves me."  She proceeds to call her ex-boyfriend, who she broke up with 4 years ago and is now a married man, at 1 am and say ":)o you love me?" He still has feelings for her but before he could answer her I took the phone from her and ended the call.  I did nothing wrong and she did this to me.  This should have been a red flag a while ago.

There have been many other similar episodes.  Meaningless interactions, even from the past, with females have put her into an episode. 

Pou - it really feels like love.  When she is not in a rage/jealous state she is rational, understanding, smart, funny, not to mention I am incredibly attracted to her.  But what am I doing? She is controlling me by my emotions.  I feel castrated.  I clearly have dependency issues.  I think I am staying together with her because I know I would probably fall into a depression if I were alone and I would continue to be my own prisoner thinking about her all day and imagining her in someone else's arms.  As much as she tortures me, I can't help but want to be with her.  And I really don't know if we want to be together long-term.  But the longer I stay, the harder it will be to leave.  I am addicted and dependent.  She is a drug that I need to keep getting another hit of.  Yet I am tormented.  A couple weeks ago I didn't know what BPD was.  Now it is running my life. 

So she used no sex as punishment and kept it up for a month and a half as red bolded above?

[Pou]

[quote/]

Pou - it really feels like love.  When she is not in a rage/jealous state she is rational, understanding, smart, funny, not to mention I am incredibly attracted to her.  But what am I doing? She is controlling me by my emotions.  I feel castrated.  I clearly have dependency issues.  I think I am staying together with her because I know I would probably fall into a depression if I were alone and I would continue to be my own prisoner thinking about her all day and imagining her in someone else's arms.  As much as she tortures me, I can't help but want to be with her.  And I really don't know if we want to be together long-term.  But the longer I stay, the harder it will be to leave.  I am addicted and dependent.  She is a drug that I need to keep getting another hit of.  Yet I am tormented.  A couple weeks ago I didn't know what BPD was.  Now it is running my life.

[quote/]

Just to put things in perspective … I have had two meaningful relationships in my life.  I had a 10 years long term relationship and the girl turned out to be diagnosed with bi-polar.  She was on a bunch medications and did not tell me.  We did the long distance thing for a good part of our relationship because we went to different colleges.  I think the antidepressants combined with her bi-polar, she stepped out of the relationship a couple times (or more … I wouldn't be able to tell and I didn't care at the end).  So we broke up … I stayed out of her life as many times she tried to bring me back in.  I cared for her at the time and during most part of our relationship … she wasn't a BPD.  She was just bi-polar and depressive at times.  My now NPD wife is very obvious that she in a relationship to control … there is not any feeling involved in having a mutual and healthy relationship.  A healthy partner is compassionate to the other's needs and feelings.  S/he puts in the partner's shoes and plan and act accordingly.  My now NPD wife throw verbiage used to describe male chauvinists and racial discrimination (much like "projection", because she actually was the one who had the qualities thrown at me) …  all of the time when we disagree on a topic … as simple as where to put a plant in our living room.  It makes me so sad thinking … is she so out of the touch that she actually thinks that anyone could tolerate the dictatorship that she imposes?  this goes from children education all the way down to where we put a plant in the living room… she has have her way ... or else, she would go as far as calling police and make accusations.  The whole episode of my arrest was due to our 2 weeks long trip to spent time with her family in California and we haven't seen my mom (a year after my dad passed), and all i did was trying to get a date when we could visit or had my mom visit my family.  She didn't like that... and she flipped out and got me arrested.  If you say … there got to be more to the story … well, you haven't met a NPD until you married one and only to figure out how horrible it is 3 kids later.  For one, I waking up feeling very stupid everyday.  I got myself into this mess and I worked on anything that I could with her ... I tried to be nice to get my way and she will flip out and start to berate me and start to call me and my mother names and unflattering adjectives.  She essentially beholden by her mother (who I suspect is also a BPD and their interaction is very unhealthy) …. and I end up to be the whipping boy.  So why do I stay … i can say as simple as for my 3 kids.  Also, I am injured … as one may say … so I am trying to deal with it and heal as best I can since now i know what the problem is.  When there are another 3 lives involved, it is not as easy to pack up and go.  Also… there is the element of wishful thinking … maybe ... just maybe she will change one day.  More like winning the lottery ticket, but it keeps me going …   I have had pretty bad luck with relationships and I am probably at fault.  I think the way "I am" attracts women who are not into a relationship because they believe in "true love".  So I begin to realize as I am getting older … perhaps, "true love" is just not for me and I should wake up and smell the coffee and stop dreaming.  Honestly, when start to think that way … my pain lessened.  Why ?  because my intensity for a "wishful outcome" dropped and I start to care more about "me" and not to be defined and influenced by my partner and what she thinks about me.  I got to be honest, when she throw unfound accusations that are opposite of who I am, it hurts and at times i still feel like my heart could just stop beating.  I am pretty sure, I could drop dead today and it really won't bother her much … maybe that is just another hassle for her to deal with.  For a borderline maybe different, but for a narcissistic personality disorder … this is what I am facing.  Life is not all bad, but just imagine that everything that is important in a healthy relationship, you get voids that are like blackholes … everywhere and you try to not to step into those holes everyday … You got a taste of it, so you know.  To put things in perspective, my life is not the worst, although could be much better … since I am staying, I am still wishing and trying for something good to happen.  Remember, it took 10 years for my NPD wife to fully escalate to now full blown ... I believe her trigger was her mother.  I think she grew up in a BPD house hold and once her father passed and mom moved near us, her entire being changed.  I can only share my experiences with you and the rest you will have to decide for yourself.  When I was 6 months into my relationship, I thought I could take a bullet for her and that was true all the way until a few years ago (irony is that today I may still take one for her … mainly because I am so conditioned to do so… but probably for the love of humanity).  Seriously… think hard and figure out what you deserve…. NPD and BPD are different human beings, they don't live in the same world as we live in.  If we mix, we become slaves to their manipulations.   We can not win if you play the game with them … can you not win for the rest of your life?  I want to win together, but that is not how they like to play the game.  They want to win and you must loose all the time.  That is just the way it is in their world.  And even when they win, they feel like they lost and they make you pay the price of how they feel…. and that goes on and on for eternity.  At least, that is what I am going through.  I feel better to have found this board and seeing that others are not far from my experience, so I am not alone.  It feels less painful knowing that.

[formflier]

 

So she used no sex as punishment and kept it up for a month and a half as red bolded above? [/quote]
Yep... . I don't have a day for day log... . it was certainly more than a month... . probably not over a month and a half.

Might go a couple days without mentioning it... . but I had decided to go on about things and not pester her for sex or hugs or that kind of thing.

Then... . all of a sudden... poof... . it was gone.  In MC she said it felt silly.

It came up because on our MC "howgozit" sheets you have to put down some sort of positive interaction.  I made a comment on there about how it was really nice to be back at having sex and touching again.

Luckily... . I was firmly in the knowledge of BPD at the time.  Was reading about it... . thinking about limits... . and I had it in my head that caving in on the limit and giving up the password for sex (or anything else) would "feed the monster" and make it worse

Probably a bit too long of an answer... but yeah... that sucked for a while.

[bruceli]

So she used no sex as punishment and kept it up for a month and a half as red bolded above?

Yep... . I don't have a day for day log... . it was certainly more than a month... . probably not over a month and a half.

Might go a couple days without mentioning it... . but I had decided to go on about things and not pester her for sex or hugs or that kind of thing.

Then... . all of a sudden... poof... . it was gone.  In MC she said it felt silly.

It came up because on our MC "howgozit" sheets you have to put down some sort of positive interaction.  I made a comment on there about how it was really nice to be back at having sex and touching again.

Luckily... . I was firmly in the knowledge of BPD at the time.  Was reading about it... . thinking about limits... . and I had it in my head that caving in on the limit and giving up the password for sex (or anything else) would "feed the monster" and make it worse

Probably a bit too long of an answer... but yeah... that sucked for a while.[/quote]
Thank you very much for the answer.  In day 16 of my no sex punishment right now.  Had a 1 month stint with a former NPDgf last year at about this time. Hmmmm... . maybe it's a time of the year thing?  trying to set up boundaries around this behavior to prevent me from making it a useful tool for her to use.

[formflier]

sorry to hear that... . obviously been there done that and it sucks. 

Do you mind sharing what the punishment is for? 

Do you still initiate or try to give her pleasure... . or is she totally not letting you touch her.

There was a good bit of time that there was no touching... . that was most of the time.

Sometimes she would let me massage her... . even do things to get her a big "O"... . and then she would still turn me down for "my turn" unless password was given up.

That was really hard... . to not react badly. 

But i suppose in the end it was worth it.

Definitely proved that the limits thing work.  That there is an extinction burst.

Switching gears:  My wife is beautiful.  She's had 8 children (yep... no typo)... and still has a really hot figure.  Women are always commenting on it.  Guys look at me with that grin... .

So... what I'm saying is I have totally scored with a hot wife.  But... . many times she feels inferior... thinks I want something else.  Craziest thing I have ever seen... makes no sense whatsoever.

[/quote]
Thank you very much for the answer.  In day 16 of my no sex punishment right now.  Had a 1 month stint with a former NPDgf last year at about this time. Hmmmm... . maybe it's a time of the year thing?  trying to set up boundaries around this behavior to prevent me from making it a useful tool for her to use.[/quote]

[formflier]

 

Oh... and my suggestion for boundaries is to not let her know it bothers you. 

I would also keep trying to pour out the love an massages to her... . if she will let you.

She'll crack... .

[StayOrLeave15]

I am really moved by the outpouring of support and wisdom for my story.  

Goldylamont - your response was so insightful.  My body is talking to me.  I am friendly and successful, and have always attracted females.  But I know there is a hole inside me somewhere.  I have a shaky self-esteem and I met her right after coming out of the fifth (and by far the worst) depressive episode of my life.  She filled this hole.  But the hole she has inside of her is even larger, and as Pou said, she is in a different world.

The logical part of my brain can understand this.  But my heart and emotions cannot process it.  I am being naive.  Every realization I have hurts me more and more.  Because I realize that I don't think I have it in me to be with her.  And even though it has only been a few months vs. many people in decades-long relationships, she feels like my whole world.  

The depressive symptoms I am experiencing now (sadness, weakness, anxiety, poor sleep, self-sabotaging behaviors especially at work) are a direct result of these realizations.  It's like living in a bad dream to realize that your lover and best friend lives in a different world, especially when she is your confidant and you feel like no one has understood you more.  So given these symptoms all I want to do is go toward her.  Talk to her. Be with her all the time.  But I feel like the heroin addict who says "This is the last time," as he is putting the needle in his vein.  I know I am hurting myself.  But I am so terrified of the withdrawal and not only being depressed but also being ALONE that I stay here, suffering and paralyzed.  Going back for another hit of this seductive drug.  

It is so good to hear other people's stories but it is also discouraging.  My "plan" is to hope that going to therapy together sheds some light on her behavior, so that she may find a way to get help. If a third party tells her these extreme reactions are not okay, she may agree to work on them through DBT perhaps.  But let's be real.  If I don't have it in me to deal with this, I am just putting off the inevitable suffering of being apart. (To illustrate my dependency, she texted me while I was writing this and I immediately answered.  Such an addicting drug.)  

Someone said something very wise to me today.  She is a drug that makes you feel very good and then very bad.  But happens if next time you OD?