Suspect S2BX is BPD - past week has been a nightmare.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

A little over 3 weeks ago, my wife informed me of her intent to divorce. Needless to say, I was heartbroken. The first 5 days were actually bizarrely weird. She was intimate, affectionate, tender... . so much everything I've been longing for, for years. She said that it was easier for her now that she felt there was an end in sight.

She expressed a desire for an amiable parting. And I was inclined to do so.  But I quickly began to realize that her idea of amiable is she gets everything, and I get nothing (worse than nothing actually).

She claimed the $10K in savings, and intended to leave me with the $10K in debt. She wants half of the value of any assets. She wants the minivan with about $8K of value while leaving me the car I never wanted that's about $2K underwater.

When I mentioned that I thought she should buy herself a computer. She balked and exclaimed that she thought she should keep the computer and I buy a new one. She also thought she'd take the Xbox/Kinect. I could have the TV (which I saved up for 2 years to buy). When I explained that I have so much development software on my computer it would be a pain to re-install everything. She was like fine, you can keep the laptop, just buy me a new one. When I balked at having to buy her a laptop. She raised her voice and shouted that I couldn't just expect to get every thing of value.

Mind you, I'd only asked for my laptop. And pointed out I saved for the TV while she went on a 2 week trip to Korea. She'd already expressed an expectation for my laptop, the Xbox/Kinect, the kid's iPad, etc.

That was when I realized that her "amiable" was only if she got her way.  Since that times things have gone incredibly downhill. She's been passive/aggressive, insulting, antagonistic, she's been smearing me to friends, and even my mother. Much of which were major twistings of the truth, and lot just flat out lies.

I feel this past week she's been trying to instigate, and I've just been trying not to respond to all her manipulations. But with all the false accusations, I've been very concerned. Yesterday, I moved all of our firearms into a secure gun locker in a storage bin, and gave the keys to a friend with the intent to have them turned over to a lawyer.  As I was afraid that she would make a false accusation against me and I did not want to be arrested for such.

Last night she took the children to a friend's. And I still don't know where they are.  :-(

It has been a hellish few years of so much abuse and neglect. I really wish I knew and understood about BPD 4-5 years ago.  She has not been diagnosed. Refused to seek individual therapy. But she shows nearly all the behavior. And during our marital counseling the counselor expressed her tendency to look at everything and everyone and black and white and having unreasonable expectations.

It's just been insane... . and oh so lonely... .

:-(

[AlonelyOne]

A little over 3 weeks ago, my wife informed me of her intent to divorce. Needless to say, I was heartbroken. The first 5 days were actually bizarrely weird. She was intimate, affectionate, tender... . so much everything I've been longing for, for years. She said that it was easier for her now that she felt there was an end in sight.

She expressed a desire for an amiable parting. And I was inclined to do so.  But I quickly began to realize that her idea of amiable is she gets everything, and I get nothing (worse than nothing actually).

She claimed the $10K in savings, and intended to leave me with the $10K in debt. She wants half of the value of any assets. She wants the minivan with about $8K of value while leaving me the car I never wanted that's about $2K underwater.

When I mentioned that I thought she should buy herself a computer. She balked and exclaimed that she thought she should keep the computer and I buy a new one. She also thought she'd take the Xbox/Kinect. I could have the TV (which I saved up for 2 years to buy). When I explained that I have so much development software on my computer it would be a pain to re-install everything. She was like fine, you can keep the laptop, just buy me a new one. When I balked at having to buy her a laptop. She raised her voice and shouted that I couldn't just expect to get every thing of value.

Mind you, I'd only asked for my laptop. And pointed out I saved for the TV while she went on a 2 week trip to Korea. She'd already expressed an expectation for my laptop, the Xbox/Kinect, the kid's iPad, etc.

That was when I realized that her "amiable" was only if she got her way.  Since that times things have gone incredibly downhill. She's been passive/aggressive, insulting, antagonistic, she's been smearing me to friends, and even my mother. Much of which were major twistings of the truth, and lot just flat out lies.

I feel this past week she's been trying to instigate, and I've just been trying not to respond to all her manipulations. But with all the false accusations, I've been very concerned. Yesterday, I moved all of our firearms into a secure gun locker in a storage bin, and gave the keys to a friend with the intent to have them turned over to a lawyer.  As I was afraid that she would make a false accusation against me and I did not want to be arrested for such.

Last night she took the children to a friend's. And I still don't know where they are.  :-(

It has been a hellish few years of so much abuse and neglect. I really wish I knew and understood about BPD 4-5 years ago.  She has not been diagnosed. Refused to seek individual therapy. But she shows nearly all the behavior. And during our marital counseling the counselor expressed her tendency to look at everything and everyone and black and white and having unreasonable expectations.

It's just been insane... . and oh so lonely... .

:-(

[AlonelyOne]

I'm doing my best not to engage her in her manipulations. And at this point I think I need to not even participate in any joint activities with her.

[ForeverDad]

Time to contact some lawyers for consultations and get legal advice.   You need to know where you stand.  Of course she will demand all the assets and leave you with all the debts.  Typical mindset.  The reality is different.  For example, if your work is on the laptop, then the court will see it is reasonable and necessary for you to keep it.  Still, I think you ought to get that hard drive cloned and the copy put in a safe place out of her reach just in case.

But far more important than the money is your parenting.  How important are the children to her, does she see them as possessions or extensions of herself or is she disinterested in parenting?  Is she more interested in money or possessions than the children?  Her behaviors in that regard will help guide your legal strategies.

And regarding her recent surprise friendliness, don't participate in bringing another child into the failing marriage.  You can't trust her to practice reliable birth control.  It will be hard enough to parent with the children you already have.

[AlonelyOne]

Well the affection only last 5 days. We've severed intimacy. And I got the minivan prevention insurance a few years back.  So while she might get knocked up, it'll be by her boyfriend and not me.

As for the kids, she is into them but also has a lot of conflict with them.  I'm seeing a lawyer Friday.  *finger's crossed*

It's been an insane roller coaster ride. But she's really just pushed me so far with her recent behavior. She's quite stupid, I was pretty much willing to let her have the savings and take the debt. And she got all bent out of shape over a few minor possessions. Began acting more and more antagonistic. And at this point, I feel there is no real opportunity for an amiable solution. And the more crazy she acts, the more I question whether I need to seek primary custodial-ship. 

[livednlearned]

And the more crazy she acts, the more I question whether I need to seek primary custodial-ship. 

We often recommend people buy a copy of Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy. There is a Kindle version you can download to your computer and read it immediately. Eddy was a therapist before he became a family law attorney, and recognized that most high-conflict divorces involved someone with BPD. It's a must read.

About seeking primary custody -- yes. Ask for primary. Unfortunately for a lot of us, the difficult behavior during the marriage becomes difficult behavior before, during, and after the divorce. And if you have kids, the difficult behavior impacts coparenting and custody arrangements for years. If you don't get primary custody immediately, it's possible you will eventually turn that around.

If you meet with a lawyer who dissuades you from asking for primary custody, then you might have a lawyer who doesn't get BPD. Shop around before you pay the retainer.

[Matt]

Be very careful during this time, while you are both thinking about divorce but still living together.  Very often, the person with BPD makes false accusations - sometimes very serious - and the police may believe them.

It might be best to sleep in a different room and lock the door.

[AlonelyOne]

She already has made several. I've moved into another room and usually keep the door locked. I removed our firearms. Locked them up. And turned the keys over to a friend who's dad is a lawyer. Removing my access so she cannot falsely accuse me. 

The last week has been insane. She's missed work to be with BF, just up and abandoned us while at the park for nearly an hour to be with BF, she's made several false accusations.

:-(

So much for her claims of desiring an amiable process.

Be very careful during this time, while you are both thinking about divorce but still living together.  Very often, the person with BPD makes false accusations - sometimes very serious - and the police may believe them.

It might be best to sleep in a different room and lock the door.

[Matt]

What sort of false accusations has she made?

And who did she tell that stuff?

[AlonelyOne]

Also hoping to start taking at least the eldest to counseling.

[AlonelyOne]

What sort of false accusations has she made?

And who did she tell that stuff?

She's made claims I'm abusive and that she thought she might have to take herself and the kids to a shelter. (Told her friends, and even my mother and a close friend.)  I have never hit or used any physical force on her in the 8 years of our marriage (which is more than she can say).

She claimed I was neglectful and uninvolved with my children. Told my mom that my children barely know me and don't even get excited when I come home.  This is so so so so far from the truth. A quick perusal of my Facebook photos pretty much disproves such claim. In fact, my kids were like I love Mommy 100x, nannies 100x & 200x, and daddy 1000x.

[AlonelyOne]

When I had a bonfire with a couple of friends over, and their 12 year old son. She exclaimed that I was endangering our children. Even sent her mother to try to pick up and remove the children.

When I did remove the firearms from the house. She contact a whole bunch of people trying to make it seem threatening.

So ya, it's been insane... .

[Matt]

There seem to be some patterns when people with BPD or something similar start making accusations.

Sometimes they kind of try it out on the person they are accusing.  My wife said things to me like, "If I don't do what you want, what are you going to do, get violent with me?" - completely out of the blue.

Then they may say things to "safe" people, like family or close friends.

Then maybe to "official" people like someone at the kids' school.

Then maybe to the police or the court.

It sounds like your wife is in the second stage - saying stuff to people who probably won't do anything about it.  Hurting your relationships maybe but nothing official yet.

Things tend to escalate.  When she finds out this sort of "unofficial" accusation isn't hurting you enough she may turn up the heat.

The only way to prevent it that I know of is to not be around her, without a non-family adult third party present.  She could still make accusations - she could say "The kids told me he hurt them." - but it reduces her options... .

[AlonelyOne]

And if I leave the family home, than I'll be accused of abandonment.

But even if I wanted to, I can't.  I don't have any income to afford another place. I pretty much pay all of the bills leaving me with no means. (She mostly just buys food, $250-$400/month, pays her student loans $250/month and used to give me some allowance/spending money.)  I pay mortgage, two vehicle payments, utilities (electric/internet/tv/cell), insurances (car, health, etc).

Best I can do is sleep in the guest room and lock the door.

[livednlearned]

Best I can do is sleep in the guest room and lock the door.

Do you live somewhere you can record her without permission? Lots of people here do that. And even if you need permission in your area or country, it's a fairly grey/fuzzy area. Sometimes, having a recording helps prevent something bad from happening. Other times it might help first responders figure out what to believe.

[AlonelyOne]

I recently moved the voice recorder app to the front page of my phone. 

[AlonelyOne]

Technically no... . but well, I don't care. I'd rather have the recording. Let her find the money to sue me. Sure it isn't admissable as evidence. But gee, it sure is great proof to friends if needed.

[Matt]

My attorney - very experienced in cases like mine - told me that technically a recording like this would not be admissible, but that in practice it all depends what is on it.

She said that if it shows something very serious, the judge would probably admit it, justifying it by saying that it's in the kids' interest for the court to take all the important information into account.

(I never got any recordings that showed anything very extreme, so I never tried to get them admitted.)

[ForeverDad]

Most recordings never get used in court, but an evaluator or even CPS may be more likely to listen to a few of them to help them get a background and feel for the case.

In my case I used the first (threat of DV) in municipal court but the judge used case law to indicate they weren't "imminent" threats, so ex got a pass when the case was dismissed for lack of a weapon.

A couple years later when ex was fired by our pediatrician for raging at the staff she had to cook up something where I would look worse than her.  So she got our kindergartner to say I beat him on the shins even though the hospital nurse said they looked like normal active boy bruises.  Referred to CPS, they quizzed me and since I recorded exchanges I had a recording of my son saying "look at my bruise daddy" and when I asked where it happened he wasn't too sure but though it was on the monkey bars (when with his mother).

Last year I was seeking majority time, in the interim I had already gotten custody, I had a number of phone calls where ex was raging and demeaning me and son was clearly present or well within hearing rage.  Court listened to them and concluded ex was disparaging father in front of our child (now 11 years old).  She had been doing it all along but that was the first time it came before the court.

That was across a span of 8 years.  However, it was especially helpful for me in the early days when I was so very insecure in my parenting, knowing I had proof I wasn't the one misbehaving and lying.  Few actually listened, but it was my insurance policy and helped me sleep better at night.

[Matt]

Yeah, good point about a Custody Evaluator being able to consider stuff that isn't admissible in court.  That's one of the advantages in having one appointed.

[AlonelyOne]

Custody Evaluators are extremely expensive, aren't they?

[Matt]

Custody Evaluators are extremely expensive, aren't they?

Ours cost $5,000, plus $500 each for psych evals.

[AlonelyOne]

Why are they so expensive?

@250/hr, $5K = 20 hours 

[Matt]

20 hours isn't much.  I'm sure ours put in more than that.

He interviewed the kids, my wife and me pretty extensively - at least 5 or 10 hours there.

My two stepkids - a few more hours.

Got my counselor's notes and my wife's medical records.

Administered the MMPI-2 to each of us, and had them scored by an outside company, and drew conclusions based on those results.

Wrote up a report, about 20 pages - probably 10 or 20 hours just to write the report alone.

I don't know if he charged $250 an hour but that's a reasonable guess.  I think he could have charged us a lot more than $5,000 and I wouldn't have liked it but it would have been understandable.

And some other members here have paid a lot more for CEs.

[AlonelyOne]

Did the MMPI-2 spotlight your spouse's BPD?

I'm concerned about spending $5K and her masking all the insanity that happens inside closed doors.

[AlonelyOne]

So met with one lawyer. Sounded like the default would be 50/50 split of custody/assets and a likely filing against me for short term child support (pendente  lite), and such could be done without trial or anything.

Basically, it seems to pretty much boil down to, she's the parent who's home more. Nothing else really matters. Unless I launch a full frontal scorched earth war in an attempt to spotlight her mental health concerns.

:-|

[AlonelyOne]

Guess I just feel discouraged right now. Like it's pretty much all in her favor. That none of the abuse I've endured for the past several years accounts for anything. And that she's going to get her last last. Bankrupt me, force me to lose everything... . and leave me seeing my kids intermittently.

:-(

[Matt]

Did the MMPI-2 spotlight your spouse's BPD?

I'm concerned about spending $5K and her masking all the insanity that happens inside closed doors.

That's why the MMPI-2 is critical - it allows objective diagnosis.

My wife tried to fool the test, but it has a "truth scale" which showed that she "presented falsely" - that is, she lied.  So she was diagnosed with BPD and some other stuff despite trying to fool the test.

I can't say that the test can never be fooled - I don't really know - but I think it would be very difficult to fool.  All you do is add a finding of "presented falsely" to the diagnosis.

The question is, would a diagnosis make any difference to the outcome?

My guess is, not with this lawyer.  It sounds like he doesn't know how to do this and has no experience doing it, or he would be giving you this advice not me.

You have to get the Custody Evaluation with objective psych evals like the MMPI-2.  Then you have to show that a BPD diagnosis means the kids are at high risk;  kids raised by someone with BPD who is not in treatment are at much higher risk for substance abuse, psychological problems, depression, etc. long-term.  That might require an expert witness, to get the research on that subject into the record.  You also have to show that you are very capable of parenting the kids.

I wouldn't call it "scorched earth", because you're just pointing out what is already true.  You're not scorching the earth, it's already scorched.  You're highlighting what is real so the court can't pretend not to see it.

But yes, it will add cost.  And 50/50 might be OK.  I got 50/50 on paper, and my lawyer told me I would end up with the kids most of the time anyway, and she proved to be correct.  Five years later, my kids are with me about 3/4 of the time or more, without going back to court, and they are doing fine.

So you have to figure out if 50/50 would work out OK for the kids and for you - how will it actually play out over time?

And if the answer is that you don't think that will work out OK for them, and it's important to get majority time, then find an attorney who knows how to do that, and go through the process to get the best result.

[livednlearned]

If he's saying you should ask for 50/50, then he doesn't understand BPD divorces.

It's better to ask for more than what you think you'll get. You need something to negotiate with. Maybe you ask for primary, but you know 50/50 is where you'll end up. Opposing party says no way, and offers something small as a concession, like she agrees to counseling for all the kids. Stuff like that.

Your lawyer can tell you, "Here's what's likely to happen." But he needs to have a strategy that gets you the best outcome. If his strategy is just, "This is what you're going to get" then he doesn't have a strategy. He won't advocate for you, and you'll just end up fighting with your ex and your lawyer. Not fun.  

[ForeverDad]

Imagine this scenario... .

You - are convinced that it would be best for you to have custody long term.

Lawyer - says maybe 50/50 is best you can get, so why ask for more?

Judge is "middle of the road", unlikely to give either parent everything asked for.

Scenario 1

You ask for "fair" shared custody and "fair" 50% equal time

Ex asks for "entitled" custody and "entitled/obstructive" 99% majority time

Judge splits the difference, orders temp custody to mother and 75% time, father 25%

Scenario 2

You ask for custody and 75% majority time

Ex asks for custody and 99% majority time

Judge splits the difference, orders temp custody to mother and 50% time, father 50%

Obviously it is never that simple but that's our reason to suggest you ask for what you feel is right and yet prepared to work with what the judge orders.  Unfortunately, judges often have a default pattern they and the other judges in the court follow, often mothers get default but unwritten preference.

In my case, I walked into family court with temp possession of the house based on a temporary protection order (TPO) I had in municipal court.  Then-spouse properly listed it on her own tit-for-tat TPO she filed for in an attempt to include our preschooler but I have no evidence that the family court magistrate ever looked it up.  CPS did stand up and say they had "no concerns" about me.  Yet the magistrate 's main question was our work schedules.  That's all he needed to know to default to giving my then-spouse temporary custody.  She couldn't approach our home due her her making death threats against me - adult behaviors have less impact than parenting behaviors - but she walked out with temporary custody.

So, knowing that the fathers often have the cards stacked against them by unwritten default, you have to have a strategy and perseverance.

[livednlearned]

I read some really good research about dads and primary custody -- it's true that dads are less likely to get primary custody. But it's also true that fewer dads ask for it. How many lawyers are contributing to that? 

Your lawyer might be feeding right into the bias.

A lot of people at the beginning of divorce are still very beaten down and passive from years of abuse. We tend to bring that demeanor into our lawyer's office. Your lawyer works for you, and has an agenda that is different than yours. You have to advocate for what you want, and make sure this person cares as much about your kids as you do. Your lawyer is going to be involved in some of the biggest, most expensive decisions of your life, impacting you and your kids for decades. It's really important that you have faith in this person, and believe he has your best interests at heart. He needs to have a strategy to help you achieve your goals, and you need to approve it and understand the how and why of it.

The strategy can involve depositions, parenting coordinators, custody evaluation, an MMPI-2 psych eval -- all of these tools and more are available to help you get what you want. Matt talks about the importance of shining sunlight on the issues you know but lawyers and judges don't. These are tools to shine sunlight, and they can be put together to create a strategy depending on how BPD presents in your wife.