Need to Tell BPD Spouse Want Divorce, Need to Stay in Home

[fsoduck]

There are probably some variations on answers to this question.  I met with an attorney last week regarding my decision to move forward with a divorce with my BPD/NPD spouse.  BPD/NPD spouse violently rages against me, which has included physical assault.  We share one child together - teenage girl - who is three years out from college.  

I am planning on being gone by next summer, but I need to do some planning.  In order to get on the calendar with the divorce court for next summer, my attorney says I need to file now.  However, to the extent that it is possible I should stay in the marital home and apply for a TPO if that is necessary.  

My question is this:  do I present my BPD/NPD spouse with the news that I wish to divorce, that I am moving to another room in the house, present my asset settlement proposal as well as custody proposal and see how she reacts?  :)o I move immediately to remove her from the home for my own protection?  It is going to be an awful scene and will make for a really bad year for me and DD.  

Can anyone share how they handled:  a) telling their BPD spouse they want the divorce; and b) still having to be in the same house with them during the divorce proceeding?  

[catnap]

Considering your wife's past behaviors when rejected, I would get a TPO. 

My son got a TRO, probably very similar to the TPO and had his exgf served with custody papers where she worked.  We used a private process server so we could control time, date and place of service.  He was able to get the locks changed the same day.  He placed all of her belongings in a storage unit and she was given the location and the key to the storage unit when she was served. 

I do not know if where you live if something like that could be done.  In your case I would also install some security cameras (one member here used wildlife cams which were less expensive, but worked fine) around your home also.  Remove her from any credit card you are the primary card holder on, etc. 

IMO, it would be very dangerous for you to try and live in the same home with her.  False DV arrest, calling CPS claiming you are abusing your daughter are just two things that come to mind.  You would spend thousands of dollars and a lot of time trying to clear your name of false charges and allegations. 

The main thing to ask the L would be can I get a TPO now.  From your previous posts, it sounds like you have a lot of evidence showing her destructive/violent behavior.

[Matt]

Talk with your lawyer about the options and how each one might work.

Staying in the home with someone who has BPD after you file for divorce is likely to be very stressful for everyone.

Would there be enough money for one of you to get a small place nearby?

Can you show any evidence that your spouse has been violent with you or the child?

[ForeverDad]

It would be wise to get some voice recorders.  Living together with a divorce case hanging over your heads will be hard and she is likely to short circuit the process and take control by framing you for mischief or making unsubstantiated allegations so that you're the one carted away and possible even facing charges.  So you will need to prove that you're not the one with a history of behaving badly.

On one particularly bad day in 2005, my spouse was threatening to kill me, I called 911, that effectively ended the marriage, though it had been dysfunctional for years.  Guess what, I think I would have been the one carted off for a weekend in jail.  When the officer asked me to hand off our preschooler to his mother and step away he shrieked and clung tighter to me, I think he saved me that day.

If that happened, would your daughter be your ally or would she cave and side with her mother?  Children of abusive parents often have little will power and their perception of events can be swayed by pressuring.

You're thinking the 'fair' thing to do is to discuss this with her first before filing.  That is most likely a bad strategy if she will instead use that advance notice to make you look worse than her.  Probably best to file first then inform her or have her served.  That way if she makes allegations you can honestly portray it a sour grapes, retaliation, etc.  If you inform her before you file she could strike first with underhanded methods meant to make you defensive and in a weak position.

[whirlpoollife]

I filed then a week later x2bh npd/BPD received the divorce complaint. He received a notice in the mail for him to go to the post office and receive the letter which contained the divorce complaint. When h picked up the complaint I planned it so the kids would not be home and I could leave.

H texted me all day saying he was crying , he called my friend asking where I was was and how mental I was etc. later I found out he was at his L's office talking about economic issues for divorce.

So he must have had a L lined up ready to go.

From the day the spouse receives the complaint is when the actual divorce timeline begins in my state.

I Had already told h that I did not want to stay married to him anymore which wasn't easy because I was so scared of him.  But after I filed and divorce complaint was in the mail, I told kids which was the worst part. H came home got his mail notice.

After h received the divorce complaint, my L filed with the court for me to get marital possession of the home , which tied into a custody hearing. That court date was four months after.  H got court order to leave I had some proof of the emotional abuse and the financial part of what I put up for the house.  I pay full mortgage. he had another 30 days to actually be gone. He stayed till the last second.

I did not get a PFA order on him, cause I was sacred to . He did not hit me. I was unaware of RO which I think is different and could of used that while we lived together after filing . I don't know.  h followed me around to start arguments and record me. It wasn't  nice.

Before she receives the complaint Have a storage locker to put ALL important financial papers in. Put all check records, receipts, bank statements , deeds, etc there. Any photos or anything special of yours put in there.  :)ont be nice and feel spouse won't go though any of it and take it herself at home. Don't tell spouse about it.  

Any commingled funds are marital property. Spouse can empty any joint accounts. Even though you will probably have to "share" finances when divorce becomes final, keep yours in an individual account. That way what is yours you have it. Other way around you might not ever see it.

What happens with kids is another long story

There is no easy way to tell spouse. It is not easy to live with a disorderd person after. There was major P A with the kids. But it was a do it or die for me so I went though the storm.  So glad I did.

[ForeverDad]

You want to be assertive and proactive, not reactive and always playing catch-up.

You want a lawyer who is assertive and proactive, not reactive and basically just files the forms and says he/she will hold your hands during the process.  This means you'll need an experienced, problem-solving lawyer.  Don't be intimidated by the hourly fees, find out if you're charged for every phone call, believe me, there will be a lot.  Some may quote a lower rate but if they ding you for every email and call then you may end up paying more.  So focus on whether your lawyer has a strategy beyond filing forms.

[fsoduck]

Thanks to all who have provided input thus far. I have hired an attorney in may area who is well versed in dealing with crazy spouses.  That being said, without my DW actually threatening to do me bodily harm, I am reluctant to go the TPO route because I fear it will jeopardize any chance I have to avoid paying her spousal support.  She is a high functioning borderline (undiagnosed, but all the symptoms are there) and she holds a Government security clearance.  I would fear the TPO would jeopardize her clearance, she would lose her job and then I would be forced to support her.  Any thoughts?

[Matt]

Thanks to all who have provided input thus far. I have hired an attorney in may area who is well versed in dealing with crazy spouses.  That being said, without my DW actually threatening to do me bodily harm, I am reluctant to go the TPO route because I fear it will jeopardize any chance I have to avoid paying her spousal support.  She is a high functioning borderline (undiagnosed, but all the symptoms are there) and she holds a Government security clearance.  I would fear the TPO would jeopardize her clearance, she would lose her job and then I would be forced to support her.  Any thoughts?

There may be a way to do it so she won't lose her security clearance... .

What if you both agree to leave each other alone, and only communicate by e-mail, or through your attorneys?  And what if your lawyers work it out with the court, so it won't be listed as a TPO "against" either of you?  You can talk openly - the four of you - both parties and both attorneys - to make sure it will achieve the goal - limited contact - without putting her security clearance in any jeopardy.

Both attorneys, and the judge, will see that you are trying to be reasonable and also to protect yourself, and they should respect that.

[livednlearned]

Is there any urgent reason that you need to be divorced by next summer?

If you want to initiate the divorce now, but don't want to serve her a TPO, maybe the best thing is to lay low while you tighten up your plan.

In my state, spouses must separate a year before the divorce is granted. At first I thought that was a prison sentence, but then I realized with high-conflict divorces and a court that moves at a glacial pace, that it takes about a year to sort through everything anyway. A year is actually fast compared to some of the divorces here. BPD sufferers tend to be pretty good at filing continuances and obstructing things, which drags everything out. And then there is the problem of agreeing to things, only to not comply with the order. That's also pretty common.

In my case, we actually dealt with the financial stuff and division of assets fairly quickly. But then N/BPDx would not comply with anything he agreed to, so I had to take him back to court to get him to comply. That went on for a couple of years. Custody has been ongoing. I've lost count of how many times we've had hearings.

Hope this isn't too depressing. I'm just mentioning it because wanting to be divorced next summer, even if you file now, is probably not going to happen... .

[fsoduck]

In my state, if I want to file for divorce on no-fault grounds we must be separate for a year.  This does not mean we cannot be in the same household, but our relationship during that time, corroborated by a witness, must be no more than "two ships passing in the night."   How are would this be to do with a BPD spouse? 

The other ground that my lawyers says I can file on is cruelty, which would get me in the docket much faster than waiting one year. 

My inclination at this point is to perhaps draw up a settlement and separation agreement and see how BPD spouse responds.  I am slated to leave with or without BPD spouse for an overseas assignment for my job next summer.  I need to separate things financially ASAP as BPD spouse is putting a lot of strain on our joint finances by refusing to contribute to her portion of the mortgage payment.  As you can imagine, when we qualified for the mortgage based on joint income, this is creating a lot of stress for me. 

I am also worried about my DD's reaction to the divorce filing and the impact it will have on her.  I think she views me, somewhat, as the "bad guy" who is not sensitive to her Mom's needs.  She more or less told me so last night when I said that her mother is overly sensitive to the smallest of comments.  The one that will seem to set my BPDW on a rage is when I ask her a question and she deems it a stupid question and I respond with something to the effect of "well, I didn't know which is why I asked."  DD says it is patronizing and condescending - the same thing BPDW says.  At the same time, BPDW can say the most horrible things to DD.  Lat week BPDW was threatening to hit DD - and I had to place myself on the room to make sure it wouldn't happen.  I could not de-escalate the verbal confrontation but I could make sure it wasn't going to get physical between the two of them.

I have never actually witnessed BPDW hitting my daughter, although I did hear from another room once my daughter scream at her "don't hit me" and DD has intimated in conversations that her mother has hit her in the past.  She has never directly said so. 

I found a letter last night where DD was writing to herself how it hurts that her mother "hates" her so much.  I sometimes wonder how much is "teen drama" vs. real issue because DD will say "nobody likes her" but she has a number of friends, gets out to do things on her own, etc. 

One thing is that for the next year, I will be in a more flexible position regarding my work schedule as I will basically be attending full-time language training, so I will be around a lot more.  Not sure how this all comes together and how I make this all work for the better. 

[ForeverDad]

What I would most certainly counsel you do NOT do is to discuss divorce informally.  It leaves too much in her control and she could very well sabotage you, file her own TPO against you and put you one the defensive as the alleged problem person, the 'abuser'.

Also, don't worry too much about your spouse.  First, she won't have the same concern for your welfare that you have for hers.  In other words, don't hide her misbehaviors while she is soon likely to be making serious allegations against you at the same time.  Second, government or security clearance jobs are not the only jobs out there.  Sometimes we are so cautious not to upset the canoe that we put ourselves at a disadvantage.

My thought... . as soon as she realizes you're pondering divorce, she will try to get you out first.  And if your daughter is conditioned to support mother first, then you'll have two against one and you may end up on the outside looking in.  Yes, have a recorder with you and use it (quietly) for insurance against being railroaded.

It sounds like your daughter has been influenced or partially alienated against you, at least to the extent that she sides with her mother while not discerning that she's criticizing you only for the same things her mother does.  This is likely a result of years of conditioning.  I would make sure that you include in your filing for your daughter to be ordered into counseling.  (Courts love counseling!)  You have less than 3 years, until she's considered an adult, to have a say in her getting counseling.

[Matt]

What I would most certainly counsel you do NOT do is to discuss divorce informally.  It leaves too much in her control and she could very well sabotage you, file her own TPO against you and put you one the defensive as the alleged problem person, the 'abuser'.

It sounds like your daughter has been influenced or partially alienated against you, at least to the extent that she sides with her mother while not discerning that she's criticizing you for the same things her mother does.  I would make sure that you file for your daughter to be ordered into counseling.  You have less than 3 years, until she's considered an adult, to have a say in her getting counseling.

Yeah, I think this is definitely a pattern we see here:  our members (including me!) often think the situation can be worked out with the other parent, and make informal agreements, which usually work in the favor of the parent who is less stable and honest.

When you file for divorce, or respond to the other party's filing, in my state at least, it's an opportunity to get the court to establish "temporary orders" - court-imposed rules for who will take care of the kids when, and financial stuff like how expenses will be paid.

What that does is eliminates the chaos and ensures that both parents will have time with the kids.  You want to ask for majority time, or at least 50/50;  temporary orders tend to become permanent so it's super-important to ask for what you think is best, right from the start.

[fsoduck]

OK. So, let's say I get various orders with regard to finances and custody into place but need to stay in the house until next summer.  How do I deal and help DD deal with a BPDW who will be even more hostile than usual?

[Matt]

Well if there is any possible way to live separately, that would be much better.  Once both parties aren't committed to the marriage, the stress can go way up for everybody.  Be creative and see if you can think of a way that you can live separately as soon as possible!

If you have to live in the same house, there should be very clear rules, which you can propose and the court can decide about.  (Or you could work them out with the other party and give them to the court to approve and enforce.)

For example, a schedule of who is responsible for the child when - what days and hours:

"Mother responsible for Child from noon Sunday through 6:00 p.m. Wednesday.  Father responsible for Child from 6:00 p.m. Wednesday through noon Sunday."

Maybe exceptions for holidays and vacations - spell those out clearly.

Figure out who is responsible for medical issues, education, etc.  Keep it as simple as possible but very clear so it can't be misunderstood.

Consider finding a counselor for your daughter, and get that into the temporary orders too:  ":)aughter will see Ms. Counselor for one hour every other week, on Father's time, beginning the week of June 16, 2014."

Find out if you can audio-record legally in your state, and learn how to program your phone or .mp3 player to do that.  Record all interactions with the other party.  Let your lawyer know you are doing that and consider letting your wife know that too;  she might act right if she knows her behavior will not be kept secret.

Photograph anything you can that shows her behavior.  For example, if she damages property, take a picture and send it to your lawyer.

Have your lawyer tell her lawyer how it needs to be:  any aggressive behavior or threats, you will report to your lawyer right away, with evidence, and he will inform the judge and ask for her to be removed from the home.  :)on't respond in kind - walk away - but don't keep it a secret.

Keep your wallet and keys on you all the time, and an overnight bag in the trunk of your car.  Be prepared to leave at a moment's notice, if she gets worked up.  Know where you can stay overnight if you need to.

[ForeverDad]

OK. So, let's say I get various orders with regard to finances and custody into place but need to stay in the house until next summer.  How do I deal and help DD deal with a BPDW who will be even more hostile than usual?

Get your daughter into counseling with an experienced counselor.  This next year will be one where you stbEx will ramp up attempts to ensnare and control DD and further alienate her from you.  You may have less and less impact on DD's views and perceptions, so having a counselor ordered will be a lifesaver.  Remember, this is likely to be high conflict.  StbEx will act as though "no holds barred" and nothing will be too underhanded for her to attempt.  After all, with her extreme all-or-nothing, black or white perceptions, she will probably see this as War not Peace.

And for your own self-protection, record interactions and encounters, especially if the simmering conflict appears to start erupting.  Technically legal or not, you need to protect yourself from false allegations.  Keep it unobtrusive, on the down low, you don't want to trigger incidents.  Seriously, it may save you from being carted off to jail, etc.

I recall Matt writing that in his state they can arrest both spouses when responding to a domestic violence call.  In his case both were arrested even though the police report written up later didn't indicate he did anything wrong.

(My own experience with this will be detailed in my forthcoming book, "Yo White Man You Snoring! - My Sixteen Hours Of Hard Time".)

And it might be wise to sit down with a high level official in your local police department (or whichever department is likely to respond to 911 calls) to advise them of the impending divorce case and risk of emergency incident calls.  Better for them to suggest what preparations would help now than for them to respond to a cold call with no advance knowledge of the background.

[livednlearned]

I am also worried about my DD's reaction to the divorce filing and the impact it will have on her.  I think she views me, somewhat, as the "bad guy" who is not sensitive to her Mom's needs.  She more or less told me so last night when I said that her mother is overly sensitive to the smallest of comments.  The one that will seem to set my BPDW on a rage is when I ask her a question and she deems it a stupid question and I respond with something to the effect of "well, I didn't know which is why I asked."  :)D says it is patronizing and condescending - the same thing BPDW says.  At the same time, BPDW can say the most horrible things to DD.  Lat week BPDW was threatening to hit DD - and I had to place myself on the room to make sure it wouldn't happen.  I could not de-escalate the verbal confrontation but I could make sure it wasn't going to get physical between the two of them.

BPD sufferers are very sensitive. It's a hallmark of the disorder. In general, though, calling someone (BPD or not) oversensitive is going to come across as invalidating. Your D may be trying to communicate this to you. It's hard in these relationships to focus on our behavior when their disordered behavior is clearly out of control. But the only way to help your D through the upcoming year, and to build a stronger bond with her, is to learn everything you can about validation. Whether it works with your wife or not is beside the point, but it will likely make a huge difference with your D.

Validation is not about agreeing with the statement "you are condescending and patronizing" -- it's about validating the feeling your D is having when she says it. Honestly, the best thing I ever learned to do (because validation initially felt so foreign to me) was to ask questions whenever I felt defensive. "Tell me what I do that makes you think that?"

When I talk to my T about my interactions with S12, more often than not, she will see things from his point of view. I realized that he is actually extremely perceptive and has an incredible sense of fairness. If your D is the same way, it will go a long way if you tell her that when she has great insight. But first you have to understand how validation works, and why.

Power of Validation (for parents) is an excellent book. So is Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. There is a new book out called Coparenting with a Toxic Ex that I haven't read, but another member here recommended it. The psychological conflicts in your home over the upcoming year are going to be intense -- learning everything you can about validation and parental alienation could salvage your relationship with your D, and help her weather the storm.

[Livestrong97]

Is there any way you could hang in there and stay until your daughter is out and then leave?  It might make for an easier break and help your daughter as well.  Only you know what is best for you.  Wishing you much luck. 

[ForeverDad]

Is there any way you could hang in there and stay until your daughter is out and then leave?  It might make for an easier break and help your daughter as well.  Only you know what is best for you.  Wishing you much luck.

One of the many reasons for separate homes and (for the parents) separate lives is so that we can be good examples to our children.  Living with a spouse who has BPD behaviors likely involves a lot of tiptoeing, appeasing, weakened boundaries, etc.  That's not a good example of what a marriage should be like.  By modeling a stable and loving home, even if only for the last few years of a teen's life, you are showing (perhaps for the first time ever) what an adult relationship requires - boundaries, mutual respect, mutual concern, etc.  That is an almost impossible task if you're forever dancing an endless dysfunctional dance.

[fsoduck]

Is there any way you could hang in there and stay until your daughter is out and then leave?  It might make for an easier break and help your daughter as well.  Only you know what is best for you.  Wishing you much luck. 

No. For my own sanity I cannot take it anymore, but also because my job requires me to go.  I have had a long discussion about quitting my career with colleagues and friends and they have advised against it.  You can work around the two to three years separation from DD, be out of the house and not have to deal with the crazy and be in a better position to help her than if you are around to be the lightning rod for BPDW's anger, etc. 

I seriously doubt I could get full custody, and that DD would not want to go with me because she wants to stay in her same school with her same friends, etc.  I am trying to figure out what kind of custody arrangement would be "in the best interest" of my DD. 

She definitely could go with me abroad for next summer, then when she is away from the crazy environment her Mom creates, maybe she would change her mind? 

[Matt]

Spending the summer abroad with you might be a great experience for your daughter and you too.

Is that place good for a girl her age?  Would it be safe, and would she have stuff to do while you're working?

[fsoduck]

Spending the summer abroad with you might be a great experience for your daughter and you too.

Is that place good for a girl her age?  Would it be safe, and would she have stuff to do while you're working?

Yes, it is a quite safe European country.  I could most likely land her a summer job with my employer. 

[Matt]

Spending the summer abroad with you might be a great experience for your daughter and you too.

Is that place good for a girl her age?  Would it be safe, and would she have stuff to do while you're working?

Yes, it is a quite safe European country.  I could most likely land her a summer job with my employer. 

Cool!  This could be a great experience for her in many ways.  Stressful for you both - don't assume everything will be rosy - there will be problems.  But you'll be together and that should help your relationship a lot.

[catnap]

What a perfect opportunity to start forming a tighter bond with your D than seeing if she has an interest in studying the new language and culture with you.  Books, a language course at her own pace, etc.  Not to mention, it will look good on her college application. 

[Matt]

What a perfect opportunity to start forming a tighter bond with your D than seeing if she has an interest in studying the new language and culture with you.  Books, a language course at her own pace, etc.  Not to mention, it will look good on her college application. 

Good point - it's not just the time abroad that will be great, it's all the preparation between now and then.

[livednlearned]

I hate to be debbie downer here, but when a custody case is active, and especially when it hasn't been resolved, the court probably won't let you take her to a foreign country. Your wife would have to agree... .

[Matt]

I hate to be debbie downer here, but when a custody case is active, and especially when it hasn't been resolved, the court probably won't let you take her to a foreign country. Your wife would have to agree... .

Yes, and she should be asked nicely, by e-mail.  If she blocks it for no good reason, you don't have to keep that hidden from the court.  It would show who is looking out for what's best for your daughter and who is fighting just to fight.

[livednlearned]

I hate to be debbie downer here, but when a custody case is active, and especially when it hasn't been resolved, the court probably won't let you take her to a foreign country. Your wife would have to agree... .

Yes, and she should be asked nicely, by e-mail.  If she blocks it for no good reason, you don't have to keep that hidden from the court.  It would show who is looking out for what's best for your daughter and who is fighting just to fight.

So... . How do the dynamics work in your family? Is it best to talk to your D first and get her on board, and then have her talk about it with BPDw? Might be worth walking on eggshells for this so you can get some kind of agreement in place first. Something you can use in your custody stuff to show the court that your wife agreed it was ok. It would need to be documented in email if you can arrange that.

My guess is that after you file, she won't want D to go with you, so it's best to document that she is changing her mind. Courts love status quo, so if D expects to go, then court may want to honor that.

[Matt]

I hate to be debbie downer here, but when a custody case is active, and especially when it hasn't been resolved, the court probably won't let you take her to a foreign country. Your wife would have to agree... .

Yes, and she should be asked nicely, by e-mail.  If she blocks it for no good reason, you don't have to keep that hidden from the court.  It would show who is looking out for what's best for your daughter and who is fighting just to fight.

So... . How do the dynamics work in your family? Is it best to talk to your D first and get her on board, and then have her talk about it with BPDw? Might be worth walking on eggshells for this so you can get some kind of agreement in place first. Something you can use in your custody stuff to show the court that your wife agreed it was ok. It would need to be documented in email if you can arrange that.

My guess is that after you file, she won't want D to go with you, so it's best to document that she is changing her mind. Courts love status quo, so if D expects to go, then court may want to honor that.

Yes, and getting the plan in place now - as soon as possible - makes a lot of sense too.  She agrees now, and then some time goes by, and she doesn't indicate she is having second thoughts;  and then after you file for divorce, she suddenly takes back her agreement.  She'll look horrible, and there might still be time to get her lawyer or the court to intervene and let the trip happen.

[ForeverDad]

Going on a trip is not impossible but you don't have to guess who will try to obstruct.  You would have to satisfy the court you would return with her.  You may be required to leave a bond or surety in escrow as a legal commitment of forfeiture that you will return your daughter after the trip.

[livednlearned]

Also -- passports.

Both parents have to sign to get a minor's passport. Same for renewal. If your D already has a passport, it might be worth keeping it somewhere that only you can access. If you get things in order so that your D can travel, it might be worth adding something to the custody order about her passport to make sure your ex is compelled to sign for a passport, hand it over, or whatever needs to happen so that she can't use the passport to obstruct the trip.

And if the court does allow you to go, have a notarized letter of permission to travel. Not all countries require this, but in case you have trouble at the border, you'll have a signed letter from the other parent permitting you to enter another country.

And to FD's point about the bond. That's what I had to do in my custody case because my ex all but ended any chance of S12 visiting his grandparents, who live in another country. I had to research everything -- my lawyer didn't know anything about foreign travel, and most of them won't -- so look up what you can about Hague Conventions and whether the country you're traveling to is part of the Hague. If it is, then there will be a specific arrangement between the US and that country about how it handles abductions. My native country is Canada, and they pretty much have a system for deporting the parent and child because it honors the custody arrangement of the home country.

The bond just gives your ex assurance that you have no intention of abducting your child. If you did, then she could use the bond to pay for the legal and travel expenses to have the two of your deported.