poked the bear

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I broke a cardinal rule and engaged with my husband's NBPD ex-wife.  I have just gotten so sick of her withholding phone calls and visitation with his daughter.  She has called the police on us, she has called family services on us, she has stalked our friends on facebook, she just can't stand that he has re-married and is happy.  Or that he is still in his daughter's life.  So, someone reported an potential ethics violation at her place of work.  Which has backfired mightily in that now she thinks that my husband has done it.  The only good thing is that she's going to look like an ass in court when it turns out he's innocent of her alleged stalking charges.

[gherkins]

I broke a cardinal rule and engaged with my husband's NBPD ex-wife.  I have just gotten so sick of her withholding phone calls and visitation with his daughter.  She has called the police on us, she has called family services on us, she has stalked our friends on facebook, she just can't stand that he has re-married and is happy.  Or that he is still in his daughter's life.  So, someone reported an potential ethics violation at her place of work.  Which has backfired mightily in that now she thinks that my husband has done it.  The only good thing is that she's going to look like an ass in court when it turns out he's innocent of her alleged stalking charges.

[Matt]

So what are the next steps?

[gherkins]

Still waiting for the order to be served. We are documenting all of her actions that have led us to monitor her online activity, like failure to provide any educational or medical information about their daughter. We are also trying to find a lawyer in the city where she had the order requested, so when it is finally served, we will be ready.

[Matt]

What order is going to be served on whom?

Whose online activity are you monitoring?

[gherkins]

My husband and I periodicalky check in on some social media sites that his ex-wife posts on. That is sometimes the only way we get information about his daughter's activities, school issues and health. Because of this, I was able to find out about her ethics violations at work. Because of that, she has decided that my husband is stalking her and she has filed an ex parte restraining order against him, which we know about due to her posting it online. We are just waiting for it to be served.

As I type this, I realize that I sound as crazy as the ex-wife is. If it weren't for the kiddo, we could disengage, but joint custody is a b___.

[Matt]

Well I'm not a lawyer, and nobody here can give you legal advice, but my gut tells me you are being too re-active and not taking the initiative.

Have you talked to a lawyer to find out your options?

For example, since this was done without your involvement, but you haven't been served yet, could you go to the court and file a motion to be heard?  If the other party is making false accusations - she says you are stalking but you haven't done anything wrong - can you make that the issue?  Ask for the order to be dismissed because it's not based on truth?

Maybe you could attach to the motion any evidence you have about the stuff you wrote here - withholding contact, calling the police, etc. - and ask for the court to tell her to stop doing that stuff and leave you both alone.  And ask that the custody/visitation order be enforced, on penalty of contempt of court.

I think the right family law attorney could quickly tell you your options and help you get a motion like that filed soon, before you are even served, so you will be off the defensive.

If you don't inform the court every time the court order is violated - every time contact with the child is blocked - the court can't do anything about it and the judge might not believe you later.  If you are supposed to pick her up at noon on Saturday, and that is blocked, be in court when it opens Monday morning and stay there til you see a judge, and ask for the other party to be held in contempt;  ask that she be fined or jailed;  ask that full custody be temporarily given to your husband, til the other party appears before the judge and explains why she is blocking contact.  The court might not give you anything you're asking for but it's how you elevate the issue and give the court visibility of what is going on.

By being passive you are letting the other party spread her story, and it is assumed to be true.

[gherkins]

I would love to be more proactive. I would love to file several motions for contempt against her. My husband, however, is not nearly as bitter/b___y/indignant/whatever as I am. He wants to take the high road so his daughter doesn't see him as a bad person. Money is also somewhat of an issue, but I would be willing to get a second job or sell my jewelry if it meant he would be able to see his daughter more.

I am also a little concerned about filing a motion to withdraw the r.o. preemptively since we aren't supposed to know about it.

[Matt]

I am also a little concerned about filing a motion to withdraw the r.o. preemptively since we aren't supposed to know about it.

If she posted it on her Facebook page, it's public information.  I would print a copy of that page and attach it to the motion.  "Ms. Ex is telling the world she got a restraining order and we haven't even been served.  It is not in Child's interest for this information to become public."

[gherkins]

What if it's on another board? And not under her real name? Do we still have the same protection?

[Matt]

What if it's on another board? And not under her real name? Do we still have the same protection?

I don't know.

How did you find out about it?

Do you know for sure that it's her?

[ForeverDad]

My impression is that if she's posting information, then it's not stalking or cyberstalking, it's looking.  However, it's a fine line and it's hard to know what is actionable and what isn't.  If she makes a claim but can't support it then it's unsubstantiated.  I mean, how does she know you're 'stalking', did she set you up with false data that she can prove you only got by stalking?  My, I feel like I'm already talking in circles with circular logic.

Yet being vaguely 'fearful' sometimes is enough to bend a judge's ear and sense of caution.  You can 'win' and yet still she doesn't 'lose'.

Here's an idea for the future.  There are some things a professional (private investigator) can do as a bonded professional that you can't do since you would be seen as 'involved'.  For example, you may not be able to follow ex as ex drives around, but a professional can.  This is not to say you can't do anything, but maybe you should think about what you could hire a PI to do and report back to you.  Then it would not be what you do but what the PI does.  Still, you don't want to look to the judge as intruding on ex's private life.

Think too, she's trying to keep the child's information from you.  How better to muddy the water and obstruct you even more than by alleging stalking?  So... . how to get this back on track, keeping it about the child and not side distractions?

[livednlearned]

My impression is that if she's posting information, then it's not stalking or cyberstalking, it's looking.  However, it's a fine line and it's hard to know what is actionable and what isn't.  If she makes a claim but can't support it then it's unsubstantiated.  I mean, how does she know you're 'stalking', did she set you up with false data that she can prove you only got by stalking?  My, I feel like I'm already talking in circles with circular logic.

Yet being vaguely 'fearful' sometimes is enough to bend a judge's ear and sense of caution.  You can 'win' and yet still she doesn't 'lose'.

Here's an idea for the future.  There are some things a professional (private investigator) can do as a bonded professional that you can't do since you would be seen as 'involved'.  For example, you may not be able to follow ex as ex drives around, but a professional can.  This is not to say you can't do anything, but maybe you should think about what you could hire a PI to do and report back to you.  Then it would not be what you do but what the PI does.  Still, you don't want to look to the judge as intruding on ex's private life.

Think too, she's trying to keep the child's information from you.  How better to muddy the water and obstruct you even more than by alleging stalking?  So... . how to get this back on track, keeping it about the child and not side distractions?

I was encouraged by my lawyer to take screen shots of my ex's social media posts. Times he posted that he was on medications and drinking, etc. As long as it might impact the well-being of S12, she considered it fair game.

Every state has a different bar for what is considered cyberstalking, and how serious the consequences are. It's important to at least consult with a lawyer and ask questions so you know what not to do, and what's ok to do.

[catnap]

I would love to be more proactive. I would love to file several motions for contempt against her. My husband, however, is not nearly as bitter/b___y/indignant/whatever as I am. He wants to take the high road so his daughter doesn't see him as a bad person. Money is also somewhat of an issue, but I would be willing to get a second job or sell my jewelry if it meant he would be able to see his daughter more.

I am also a little concerned about filing a motion to withdraw the r.o. preemptively since we aren't supposed to know about it.

I would think it would be very prudent to see a lawyer to find out if there is a way for you to check the court records to see if an RO has been filed (cheaper than having the L do it) or if the L would have to check.  Also to discuss the contempt issues--what is your best shot for having real consequences given. 

[livednlearned]

I would love to be more proactive. I would love to file several motions for contempt against her. My husband, however, is not nearly as bitter/b___y/indignant/whatever as I am. He wants to take the high road so his daughter doesn't see him as a bad person.

Sometimes taking the high road is just another way of being passive. If the issue is something significant, and if it stands to benefit his daughter, then it is important to look that truth straight in the eye. It isn't about being bitter/b___y/indignant, in my opinion.

Too many times I rolled over and didn't do what was emotionally and psychologically the right thing to do because I wanted to take the high road. But kids usually have a much more clear sense of what is fair and what isn't -- we're the ones who muddy it up. Our scripts get in the way. Our emotions make us confused about our motives.

If the motions for contempt are about clear consequences that impact his daughter's well-being and are important markers about what is or isn't right, then it can actually send a powerful message to his daughter about boundaries and assertiveness.

Taking the high road really messed up my parenting. It took a therapist to help me sort things out and fix what I had let slide.

Not saying this applies to your situation, just want to champion your perspective if what you care about is doing the right thing.

[Matt]

I would love to be more proactive. I would love to file several motions for contempt against her. My husband, however, is not nearly as bitter/b___y/indignant/whatever as I am. He wants to take the high road so his daughter doesn't see him as a bad person.

Sometimes taking the high road is just another way of being passive. If the issue is something significant, and if it stands to benefit his daughter, then it is important to look that truth straight in the eye. It isn't about being bitter/b___y/indignant, in my opinion.

Too many times I rolled over and didn't do what was emotionally and psychologically the right thing to do because I wanted to take the high road. But kids usually have a much more clear sense of what is fair and what isn't -- we're the ones who muddy it up. Our scripts get in the way. Our emotions make us confused about our motives.

If the motions for contempt are about clear consequences that impact his daughter's well-being and are important markers about what is or isn't right, then it can actually send a powerful message to his daughter about boundaries and assertiveness.

Taking the high road really messed up my parenting. It took a therapist to help me sort things out and fix what I had let slide.

Not saying this applies to your situation, just want to champion your perspective if what you care about is doing the right thing.

Ditto.

I've found that when I was passive things got worse, and since I got active - learned more, considered my options, and did what made the most sense - things have gotten better, pretty consistently.

[ForeverDad]

I would love to be more proactive. I would love to file several motions for contempt against her. My husband, however, is not nearly as bitter/b___y/indignant/whatever as I am. He wants to take the high road so his daughter doesn't see him as a bad person.

Sometimes taking the high road is just another way of being passive. If the issue is something significant, and if it stands to benefit his daughter, then it is important to look that truth straight in the eye. It isn't about being bitter/b___y/indignant, in my opinion.

An excellent book you should get is Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak.  On the very first page, in his introduction, he explains that "taking the high road" is ineffective, counterproductive and often enables the misbehaving person.

Divorce Poison,  starting with page 1, paragraph 1... .   (emphasis added)

Your ex-spouse is bad-mouthing you to the children, often or constantly portraying you in a negative light, perhaps even trying to turn the children against you.  What should you do? ... .

The conventional advice is to do nothing.  Psychologists caution parents to avoid criticizing the other parent in front of the children... .   After years of consulting on cases where parents had heeded advice to be passive and had no success, I am convinced that the standard approach is wrong.  It does not work.  Often it makes things worse.  As relationships with their children progressively deteriorate, parents usually try desperately to reason with them.  Such efforts inevitably meet with failure and leave parents feeling helpless and hopeless.

This book explains why the common approaches are impotent, why doing nothing will accomplish nothing, and why relying primarily on reasoning is an unreasonable approach to the problem.  It offers a blueprint for an effective response grounded in a solid understanding of the techniques and dynamics of parents who poison their children's relationships with loved ones.

After reading this book you will be able to distinguish different types of criticism, ranging from occasional mild bad-mouthing to severe and systematic brainwashing.  You will know why and how parents manipulate their children.  You will know how to detect subtle psychological maneuvers in various guises.  You will learn how these practices - even those that seem innocuous - damage children.  And you will discover powerful strategies to preserve or rebuild loving relationships with your children... .

Divorce Poison was written primarily on behalf of children... .   The failure of their parents' marriage is a chilling lesson that we cannot always count on love.  At such a vulnerable time in their lives, children especially need and deserve as much love as they can get.  Those who close off avenues of love and support detour children from their pursuit of emotional security.  And when they manipulate children into erecting the barriers themselves, when they enlist them as agents in their own deprivation, they violate their children's trust in a most cruel manner.  It is a form of kidnapping; stealing the soul.

I wrote this book to help lost souls find their way back to the hearts that await them.  I wish them a successful journey.

Another thought is that you don't have to explain every little thing to the court.  My lawyer used to repeat to me that his first job as lawyer was to sit on his clients so they couldn't talk too much.  Talking too much and not with legal prep could get them in deeper trouble.  For example, if you answer a sensitive question with "Yes but... . " then Yes will have answered the question and your explanation can be ignored.  My lawyer said there is no law that says you have to answer and 'incriminate' yourself or look less good.  So be careful about opening your mouth and trying to explain, you could be sinking yourself.  If you have an experienced lawyer to prep you, then you can become prepared to handle trick questions.

Do you have Bill Eddy's SPLITTING handbook?

[gherkins]

I just bought Splitting, and it was here when I got home. I had read Divorce Poison when I first started seeing my husband. It sounds like it definitely is time for another look. Thank you, everyone, for your advice and reassurance so far. It makes me think that I need to be steering my husband to his lawyer's door more aggressively.

[gherkins]

Spoke with a lawyer -I did, not my husband.  He is going to give me some names of people he recommends in the town where she has filed the r.o.  He was a little discouraging because he says, and I agree, we should have been citing her for contempt all along.  Simply pointing out all of her bad behaviors and actions will do nothing for us in protecting ourselves from the stalking charges.  I really, really, need for my husband to take the reins on this, but he tends to freeze up  when the going gets tough.

[Matt]

He was a little discouraging because he says, and I agree, we should have been citing her for contempt all along.

It doesn't do any good to talk about what you should have done in the past.

Maybe this can be portrayed as moderation on your husband's part:  he wasn't eager to respond in kind and was very reasonably hoping this stuff could be dealt with, without a contempt citation.

Now he is giving up on expecting her to do what's right, and asking the court to enforce its orders.  Seems pretty reasonable to me... .

[ForeverDad]

Spoke with a lawyer -I did, not my husband.  He is going to give me some names of people he recommends in the town where she has filed the r.o.  He was a little discouraging because he says, and I agree, we should have been citing her for contempt all along.  Simply pointing out all of her bad behaviors and actions will do nothing for us in protecting ourselves from the stalking charges.  I really, really, need for my husband to take the reins on this, but he tends to freeze up  when the going gets tough.

If you report contempts from a long time ago, court is likely to ignore it.  I found out the hard way, as many have, courts generally ignore incidents older than 6 months as 'stale' and not actionable.  That;'s a problem for use Nice Guys and Nice Gals, we hope if we're nice the other will reciprocate and be nice too.  In our cases there's little or no reciprocity.  Usually being Nice ends up being Enabling.

It's probably PTSD.  I recall when I would talk with my ex I would virtually stutter, not because I could talk but I was weighing the feared impact of every word and phrase.  Yes, dancing on eggshells, no fun.

I too have noticed a few members here who are married or engaged to the non-disordered person.  We do encourage the other person to join and share but some just plain can't handle it (yet), I guess.  We should be glad they can hold their heads above water.  Meanwhile, keep sharing insights from our posts and articles here, he will gradually gain better communication, coping and boundary skills, maybe one day he'll even join us here, even if he doesn't share much or post much.

[gherkins]

That's what I'm hoping. He's shell-shocked, after all this time, and we both have been trying to work on our passive aggressive tendencies. Being forever entwined with a BP is not very good for PTSD or PA, but we're trying.

[gherkins]

The order was just served. It is 20 some pages of "evidence" of his past behavior, all of which she has attached exhibit examples, which werent given to us. At least three items can be disproven easily. It will still involve hiring a lawyer and traveling time and a big hassle.

[Matt]

The order was just served. It is 20 some pages of "evidence" of his past behavior, all of which she has attached exhibit examples, which werent given to us. At least three items can be disproven easily. It will still involve hiring a lawyer and traveling time and a big hassle.

I think a key point here is how the process works where you live.  Is now the time to address all her claims, and show that they aren't true, and damage her credibility right from the start?  Or is that considered inappropriate at this stage - maybe you have to wait til later to do that.

But make sure the lawyer knows which statements in her document are false.  Have your husband underline all the false statements, and write notes telling your lawyer what is true, and what evidence he has or can get, so the lawyer won't assume they are true.

[gherkins]

That is exactly what we are doing. I'm also trying to get my husband to attend mindfulness sessions with one of his friends. I think a calming, focusing activity would really be good for him in general, but especially now.

[gherkins]

Met with my husband's lawyer, who has referred us to a lawyer in his ex-wife's town.  The original lawyer feels that the ex is trying to see if she can modify the custody agreement without having to travel back up here and without paying a lawyer by engaging domestic violence services to fill out the restraining order.  Not happening.

[ForeverDad]

The original lawyer feels that the ex is trying to see if she can modify the custody agreement without having to travel back up here and without paying a lawyer by engaging domestic violence services to fill out the restraining order.  Not happening.

Yes, but it is so tempting for a disordered person without qualms and normal ethics to misuse the system, as in, the ends justifies the means.

This is improper use of the laws meant to address DV, threats of DV, or child abuse, neglect or endangerment.  I wish there were clear consequences for this but this is like the whistle blower laws, the person reporting an issue shouldn't risk retaliation.  Sadly, this abuse of the system is typically permitted, even multiple times.  About her only consequence will be - over time - losing some credibility.

[Matt]

In some states it is a crime to falsely accuse someone else of a crime.

It may be a crime to make false statements in a court document.

It may also be an option to file a civil complaint against a person who has made false accusations.  A few of our members have found that to be helpful.

If an attorney was involved, that may be an ethical breach on her part.  You may be able file a complaint with the state bar association.

[gherkins]

We go to court monday.  My husband has had a couple of phone sessions with the lawyer in his ex's town. The lawyer has been pretty optimistic.  In the meantime, however, the ex has informed their daughter that the RO was filed because her father was abusive and because he was trying to get the ex fired from her job so she couldn't take care of the daughter.  Hostage1234 has a thread titled, "I hate them more and more each day."  I'm starting to feel that way myself.  There's not enough yoga and mindfulness to rise above her shady tactics.

[Matt]

What will happen in court Monday?

[sanemom]

Yes... .what are your plans for court Monday?

One thing that caught my eye in your first post was the lack of information sharing.  Over here, that is easily remedied by the NCP talking with the school and getting on their email list, etc.  The judges here wouldn't really take that one too seriously since both parents can communicate with the school and get that access.