Something I hate to admit

[Vatz]

Part of the reason I recycled so many times, and still feel like I just might if the offer came... .

See, I imagine somewhere down the road, she'll get better. She'll go to therapy, get help, take care of herself, and finally reach a point where she learns to deal with her illness in a good way. There's always this fear that it's just around the corner. If I let her slip, the next person will be so fortunate and happy with her. There's this fear that I'll be nothing more than a god-damn stepping stone. After all the time and effort, someone ELSE benefits. I really hate to admit it because it's kinda selfish and really immature, but I can't help but feel that way.

Has anyone else felt that way? Or is it just me?

[Red Sky]

Yup, that's me. That's me all over. Only my uNPDexbf would never have admitted he had a problem and that he needed therapy. I reasoned that he was messed up but IT WOULD GET BETTER. I treated relationship recycles like some kind of iterative process towards finding the stance I could take which would cure HIS issues.

This time round he seems stable. If he starts to slip I will not tolerate his behavior and I will tell him he's treating me badly. (Caused him to call me abusive.) This time I will avoid fighting in the first place. (No matter how good my intuition, if things went well for too long he would instigate a fight over nothing.) This time we will talk out all of his problems. (LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.) I actually told myself that I was making an investment in my future, because once I had helped him work through it I would have the nice bit left, the great guy I thought I wanted to spend my life with. That eventually if I stuck with him, I would get my reward.

I still find it hard to stomach that I did that.

[Tausk]

Part of the reason I recycled so many times, and still feel like I just might if the offer came... .

See, I imagine somewhere down the road, she'll get better. She'll go to therapy, get help, take care of herself, and finally reach a point where she learns to deal with her illness in a good way. There's always this fear that it's just around the corner. If I let her slip, the next person will be so fortunate and happy with her. There's this fear that I'll be nothing more than a god-damn stepping stone. After all the time and effort, someone ELSE benefits. I really hate to admit it because it's kinda selfish and really immature, but I can't help but feel that way.

Has anyone else felt that way? Or is it just me?

This is everyone for a while.  It's still me on my depressed days.  But it's a fantasy.  It's based on rational thinking, logic, and the concept of having moderately functional human capacity for maturity.

But it's a Disorder where the individual in question is stuck as a traumatized three year old.  The Disorder exists to deny itself.  The Disorder always wins.

Go and search and find actual cases of pwBPD who find self awareness.  For practical purposes it doesn't exist.  Yes some people win the lottery.  So do I bet my life on the lottery because someone will win?   Why bet my life on something that I have even less control over than winning the lottery.   It's the FOG.  The FOG projects the shame and blame unto us, and says if we do things right things will change.  But the Disorder never changes... . it just gets worse.

The real question is why did I become attached and lose myself to someone who is certifiably Bat Sht Crzy.  

[Red Sky]

Tausk, I keep reading that over half of pwBPD can achieve a kind of 'remission' - control of their symptoms enough that they can pretty much function as normal - after enough therapy. I agree I've yet to see it but don't think I have a big base of knowledge to go on.

I keep wondering how this statistic was generated. Did they ask pwBPD, their therapists, their partners? Probably not their partners... .

[Vatz]

@Red:

Drawing lines in the sand. Then when they broke boundaries, draw them again. Slowly realizing that it wasn't working. It never mattered. Great to learn that it wasn't just me. It's like that scene in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest where one patient is harassing the other. The guy getting harassed is like "don't do it again, and I swear I'll... . " but does nothing and doesn't really even say what he's gonna do.   It's not fun, thanks for helping me see I'm not totally alone in this.

@Tausk:

I like that, when someone says "it's a fantasy" because it helps keep things in perspective. It's just a human quirk I guess. Cutting losses is very hard and takes the right kind of mindset to do so. But you know what? I really should be asking myself why I went for someone who was so disordered, the signs were there.

[Red Sky]

Last night I read about the '50% rule', which says that half of anything that goes on in a relationship is your fault and half is theirs. I'm really not sure how I feel about this, because I'm not sure it actually works that way. But it is interesting to force yourself to acknowledge the part that we play, enabling our partners to get away with so much... .

The fantasy, the re-setting the boundaries. We do these things, yeah. But the thing I can't get my head around is this: does anyone ever seem to manage to enforce their boundaries and keep the relationship in control? Can you say that you had the responsibility to hold firm when there is a good chance that if your partner didn't act out in one way, they would act out in another?

[Vatz]

I think the 50% rule is for sane, functional couples. Sure, we had a part to play. A big one. But to assume that we share as much of the fault as they do, not entirely right. It's like those times she blamed her situations and problems on my decisions. She cheated because I didn't quite want to move in together. Really? You gonna tell me that it's my fault? Like those times she yelled at me for turning off the computer as I'm about to leave the house? Just turn it back on, it isn't hard.

Sure, we could have not been enablers, but then we wouldn't have had a relationship for very long, now would we? It would have been over very quickly. Also, YES if she doesn't act out one way, she'll do it a different way. Mine did.

I too thought that I could get a handle on things. There ain't no such thing.

[myself]

By the time our exes honestly went through what they could, to change their deepest patterns enough to function well in a relationship, they would be someone very different. We would be waiting for someone we wouldn't even know, who would probably have a new perspective on if they would even want to know us any more or not. Need us or not. We will also be in another place by then, if we're growing. Hang on to truth, if anything.

[Vatz]

who probably would have a new perspective on if they would even want to know us any more or not. Need us or not.

This REALLY hit me... . It's a great point. Chances are, she'd have dumped me fast if she recovered. She wouldn't need me. There are more attractive and interesting guys out there. More in her league.

Kinda like that one woman who after plastic surgery became beautiful and dumped her husband.

[Tausk]

Tausk, I keep reading that over half of pwBPD can achieve a kind of 'remission' - control of their symptoms enough that they can pretty much function as normal - after enough therapy. I agree I've yet to see it but don't think I have a big base of knowledge to go on.

I keep wondering how this statistic was generated. Did they ask pwBPD, their therapists, their partners? Probably not their partners... .

There are many very weird statistics out there, but personally I find them to be misleading.  And I'm curious where you are citing the above stat.  One that I do know of is that more than half of pwBPD will attempt suicide.  In the past, I have cited the source from the UK-NIH.

Recovery in the sense of addiction means remission of symptom along with self awareness and the ability to take responsibility and change.  But, for BPD recovery/remission of symptoms just means that the pwBPD may be able to hold off taking a steak knife to their arms every week.  It's remission of some of the worst behaviors for a short time.  But it does not mean self awareness. It does not mean the ability for empathy, or the ability to change or take responsibility.  It does not mean that the person is actually any different on the inside.  It just means that they are possibly more functional.

Maybe they will survive.  

And remember this statistical population that the data comes from are basically teenage girls who are so dysfunctional that they are in intense therapy, often locked up, and broken down to rock bottom in therapy.  They can't help but see something is wrong.  And they are young enough to be rebuilt.  And they might continue therapy because it's all they know.  

The older the person is, the more resistant to change.  And there's some thought that the more "functional" the pwBPD is, the less likely they will be receptive to therapy.  Even DBT, the gold standard, basically as my T put it, merely helps to keep the animals in the pen.  

If there were actual treatments that worked, or pwBPD who could show that they now are self aware, and can empathize, or can have actual relationships, then people would be lined up at their door for treatment.  It would be advertised everywhere.  We wouldn't necessarily have to accept the pain that there are no options.

And remember, Remission doesn't mean change, just supression.  My ex could suppress her urges for long periods of times.  But a relapse means that she can at anytime go out and cheat on me without the slightest ability to feel how it hurt me or to take responsibility for her actions.   A relapse at any time for any reason tells her that I am controlling abusive and evil, even though yesterday I was a saint.  

There are NO CURES and no treatments to actually change the person.  Only tamp down some of the behaviors.

Tell me, of all the Borderlines, name me the ones you know who are "cured?"

Don't hold out hope.  :)on't think, "mine could have been the one."  That's the Disorder talking to us.  And if we listen to the Disorder in any way, the Disorder still lives within us.  And the Disorder always wins.

[Red Sky]

I think the 50% rule is for sane, functional couples. Sure, we had a part to play. A big one. But to assume that we share as much of the fault as they do, not entirely right. It's like those times she blamed her situations and problems on my decisions. She cheated because I didn't quite want to move in together. Really? You gonna tell me that it's my fault? Like those times she yelled at me for turning off the computer as I'm about to leave the house? Just turn it back on, it isn't hard.

Sure, we could have not been enablers, but then we wouldn't have had a relationship for very long, now would we? It would have been over very quickly. Also, YES if she doesn't act out one way, she'll do it a different way.

I too thought that I could get a handle on things. There ain't no such thing.

Exactly. It took me a good bit of hindsight to see how the seemingly random vindictive acts followed on as vengeance for things I had done, things so innocent I didn't see the pattern at the time. I think that you're right... . if you don't enable you don't have a relationship.

The site I was on was using it in relation to PDs, but I can't make it follow through... .

Tausk -I am 100% willing to believe what you say on this... . It jibes with everything I have ever seen on here. For reference this is one of the links I found before... .

www.nami.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Inform_Yourself/About_Mental_Illness/By_Illness/Borderline_Personality_Disorder.htm

Bear in mind at this point I wasn't paying nearly as close attention as i do now.

[Tausk]

I think the 50% rule is for sane, functional couples. Sure, we had a part to play. A big one. But to assume that we share as much of the fault as they do, not entirely right. It's like those times she blamed her situations and problems on my decisions. She cheated because I didn't quite want to move in together. Really? You gonna tell me that it's my fault? Like those times she yelled at me for turning off the computer as I'm about to leave the house? Just turn it back on, it isn't hard.

Sure, we could have not been enablers, but then we wouldn't have had a relationship for very long, now would we? It would have been over very quickly. Also, YES if she doesn't act out one way, she'll do it a different way.

I too thought that I could get a handle on things. There ain't no such thing.

Exactly. It took me a good bit of hindsight to see how the seemingly random vindictive acts followed on as vengeance for things I had done, things so innocent I didn't see the pattern at the time. I think that you're right... . if you don't enable you don't have a relationship.

The site I was on was using it in relation to PDs, but I can't make it follow through... .

Tausk -I am 100% willing to believe what you say on this... . It jibes with everything I have ever seen on here. For reference this is one of the links I found before... .

www.nami.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Inform_Yourself/About_Mental_Illness/By_Illness/Borderline_Personality_Disorder.htm

Bear in mind at this point I wasn't paying nearly as close attention as i do now.

Yes, it's a NAMI site.  And I sympathize with their cause.  But it states, "Recent research based on long-term studies of people with BPD suggests that the overwhelming majority of people will experience significant and long-lasting periods of symptom remission in the lifetime.   Many people will not experience a complete recovery (e.g., problems with self-esteem and the ability to form and maintain relationships may linger), but nonetheless will be able to live meaningful and productive lives. Many people will require some form of treatment—whether medications or psychotherapy—to help control their symptoms even decades after their initial diagnosis with borderline personality disorder."

Again, it "suggests" significant periods of remission.  We were with our exes for "significant periods of remission."  That's part of the reason why the attachment became so deep.  And again, this research is based on pwBPD who are diagnosed, and in long term therapy.  It's a very different population than most of our exes on this board.

And the article also states, that many people won't get anywhere in terms of relationships.   Never forget how well the "significant period of remission" worked for us and our interaction.  Some pwBPD don't last more than a a day or two without needing to be with another person.  We all know the guys or girls at the bar who leave with a different person every night.  Ours were more functional, more able to have their symptoms in remission long enough to be with us, and then when the abandonment/enmeshment triggers hit, then they are no longer in remission.

NAMI is to support those pwBPD and to try and help them survive.  A significant percentage won't.  Many will end up dead or worse.    And for those pwBPD who are self aware enough to actually read about themselves, I give them great credit on their courage.  Because have BPD is so horrific that I don't think I could last a second in that emotional terror without going crazy.

But for the partners of a pwBPD... . My line would be, "Abandon all hope, all ye who would enter."

And as for the 50%, it's a good rule of thumb.  I have to take responsibility for what was/is on my side of the street.  And enablement of the Disorder is on my side of the street.  And my ex is gone now, and I'm still engaged with the Disorder, how much responsibility do I have to take for my current interactions with the Disorder?

[trappedinlove]

See, I imagine somewhere down the road, she'll get better. She'll go to therapy, get help, take care of herself, and finally reach a point where she learns to deal with her illness in a good way. There's always this fear that it's just around the corner. If I let her slip, the next person will be so fortunate and happy with her.

There's this fear that I'll be nothing more than a god-damn stepping stone. After all the time and effort, someone ELSE benefits. I really hate to admit it because it's kinda selfish and really immature, but I can't help but feel that way.

Has anyone else felt that way? Or is it just me?

I felt exactly the same.

I'm taking that to my codependent parts who want and need to give and take care.

On the other hand I know that even if my role in her life was merely be a stepping stone for healing I am very proud and blessed by that. It is the most wonderful gift to help somebody, especially a loved one.

[myself]

Looking ahead, wondering if we're going to be getting better, ourselves, adds hopes and fears to this. As the FOG clears, we see just about anything is possible. Except beating this disorder at its own game.

[Red Sky]

Tausk: can't remember where but when I did my initial research into BPD (when I met my exgf) I found a few sources suggesting that a pretty complete remission was possible. However, if you do a google search, the info is a lot more 'now there, everything will be fine' than the reality we all seem it have experienced. I don't blame sites for doing this, but I will add that I found this forum when I was at the end of my tether... . I had read ten pages of google search results for 'is it wrong to leave someone with BPD', and it had turned up ten pages of results on 'how to care for your loved ones with BPD'. I thought that only a selfish monster would want to leave someone with a personality disorder!

You make a lot of good points about what remission means for us, how these figures are generated, and what the definition of remission actually is. Under those criteria, my ex would probably have been 'in remission' through her latest suicide bid... .

[Tausk]

Tausk: can't remember where but when I did my initial research into BPD (when I met my exgf) I found a few sources suggesting that a pretty complete remission was possible. However, if you do a google search, the info is a lot more 'now there, everything will be fine' than the reality we all seem it have experienced. I don't blame sites for doing this, but I will add that I found this forum when I was at the end of my tether... . I had read ten pages of google search results for 'is it wrong to leave someone with BPD', and it had turned up ten pages of results on 'how to care for your loved ones with BPD'. I thought that only a selfish monster would want to leave someone with a personality disorder!

You make a lot of good points about what remission means for us, how these figures are generated, and what the definition of remission actually is. Under those criteria, my ex would probably have been 'in remission' through her latest suicide bid... .

Yes the criteria for remission is nebulous.   And even cheating is not necessarily loss of remission, since it might be considered less destructive than suicide attempts.  Remember, we were with our exes for long periods of remission.  We were with them at the their better moments.  And there's nothing we can do to get them back there.  It's a relationship Disorder. It only gets worse.  The best we can hope for is that they collapse within themselves without having to kill themselves, and then the destruction is minimized.

And the sites that state relationships can be fixed... . , they are often for-profit counseling advertising.  Marriage counselors make fortunes trying to repair couples like ours were.  MC's often state, that they are advocating for the relationship and how to best communicate within the relationship.  And many MC often imply that if the "non" would change then things can get better.  $200 a week for a ten years is over $100,000.   Why would an MC say anything else.  They don't make money if they tell you to run.

Nonetheless, the best thing we can do is to leave.   

[patientandclear]

There are several good threads discussing the research on treatment successes for BPD.  Each thread and study I read seems to boil down to: what's measured is reduction in the aspects of BPD that characterize so-called low-functioning sufferers: cutting, self-harm, impulsive behavior that is objectively measurable.  No one seems to have done any systematic assessment of relationship functioning.  Obviously that is a lot harder to measure than emergency room admits. It's so inherently subjective, and would require input from partners and family of pwBPD.

The observation that feelings don't change even after effective treatment, is correct.  What may change is that the BPD sufferer has tools that s/he can deploy to prevent impulsive bad feelings from doing enormous irretrievable damage to the positive things in the person's life.

[kba1969]

Vatz, I think we can all relate.  For me, I still feel that way sometimes.  I treated my xBPDgf like a princess, she even told me that herself.  She mirrored me and made me crazy for her, I was ready to marry her.  Yes, I'm sure she's using some of her learned skills with the new guy (actually one of her x's).  The way I look at it, she cheated on me with a number of x's and probably will try to use me again too but I've realized that to her I'm no different than the others!  I'm better than that, she doesn't deserve me or my 9 yr old daughter who grew to love her too.  She stomped on us and through us away like garbage.  My advise is to accept that this is their disorder and we don't want any part in it.  I still love that "person" she pretended to be and I hope she does overcome her disorder.  I just can't wait, life's to short... .

[Vatz]

It's a good point KBA. Though it MAY happen SOMEDAY. It isn't going to be soon, and the situation NOW isn't good. Why wait for something that may never even happen? I think it's a good way to look at the situation. Thank you 

I also know she's already getting someone new. It's not even a month since we broke up, and there's already someone in the picture. But something tells me he was lurking around for some time now. It's a long-distance thing so... . I sorta don't care. I needed to use her phone to call my folks, saw her texts (I didn't go looking, it was right on the screen.) There it was. For the first time ever I was like "whatever, dude" in my head.

After seeing it so many times, maybe I'm not really taking it as personally anymore. These other people seem less like people and instead are just... . words on a phone. Some kind of concept of a person that exists in some vacuum, not really existent beyond the methods in which they communicate. As for her, and what she hopes to get out of him, I realized that it ain't what I used to think. It's attention, and like stated many times before on these forums, some identity she can mirror because her "self" is not even there. Her core is just a pit of need, fear, and impulses. It's... . actually kinda sad.

It's gonna get a bit dark, but I feel I need to tell someone. I had to wrestle a knife out of her hand. She cut herself, and when I saw the knife in her bedroom I took it so I can hide it somewhere. She flipped. Started grasping for it. Eventually she got it (I'm embarrassed to say,) and I had to get it back. I had two objectives, not get cut, and not cut her. I managed both. In that moment when we fought over it, my mind was at it's best. It's like, there was no fear. Just a challenging puzzle for my brain to solve, and my body to to execute. Eventually I got her in a hold, and figured out just which way to turn her hand (inwards, toward the inside of her forearm, by the way.) It was an exercise in physics. Is what I did considered physical abuse? Also, was it bad that I felt perfectly at peace, like I was right at home during that struggle?

[kba1969]

That's aweful Vatz, sorry, that must have been f'd up!  Just be careful, here's a scenario for you... .   What if your fingerprints were found on that knife?  What if your name was all over a suicide note?  I had a similar situation happen once, no weapon.  This girl freaked out when I broke up with her and destroyed a decorated Xmas tree, I can still see her apartment, ornaments everywhere, big puddle of water on the carpet.  When she started going crazy I left.  She OD'd and was found the next day by her x husband, she was still alive but barely.  My name was all over her suicide letter and her place was trashed.  The cops called me and questioned me, told me she was barely alive and in the hospital.  If she had died, it would have been hell for me.  She moved back in with her x husband and a month later hung herself.  This was my relationship from before my last with the pwBPD!  Two F'd up relationships with two PwPD!  My xpwBPD had replacements set up before we ever split, in actuality, I never had her to myself!  What still hurts is that I thought she was mine for a year and a half before I found out then all the pieces came together.  I'm about a month NC but haven't seen her in three.  I'm anxiously waiting for her birthday the end of the month.  I won't be contacting her.  Be careful Vatz, stay away from the danger!

[Tausk]

It's a good point KBA. Though it MAY happen SOMEDAY. It isn't going to be soon, and the situation NOW isn't good. Why wait for something that may never even happen? I think it's a good way to look at the situation. Thank you 

I've struggled with the letting go of malignant hope.  It's a fantasy.  I lived in fantasy most of my childhood, with the hope that things would get better.

But malignant hope for change from my ex in this case keeps me in the denial and bargaining stages of letting go.  Some people never recover.  They stay in this stage all their lives, being recycled with the hope that things are different.  But it never changes.  The Disorder must be respected as something far more powerful than me, and far more destructive than I can alter.

I sometimes worry that I'll never recover, but then I get faith that I'm moving forward. 

Kill malignant hope.  Face the Facts.  It's a Disorder, and accept that the The Disorder always wins. 

Then we can find real hope for ourselves.

[Red Sky]

Vatz, what you did was in no way abusive; you protected yourself and her. I think that your analytical thinking in the face of a crisis is a good thing, a natural, self-preservation thing which I will agree that I've experienced and then felt bad about. It's like my brain can run through this totally logical decision making algorithm in under a second... .

Saying that, I understand your fears. My nightmare scenario is exactly what kba describes. My ex-boyfriend threatened suicide when I dumped him and whilst I felt sure he wouldn't, for a little while I lived in the fear that he would make an attempt, probably a really half-hearted one (for the attention) which he probably knew wouldn't work, and leave my name all over a note. Because yes, we fought, we fought a lot, and I'm sure he could paint me terribly if he wanted. My ex-girlfriend tried to commit suicide after I told her I was tired and was going to sleep. I totally expected to get all the blame for that one, if she'd carried it through.

I think that the LDR can work well for pwBPD, yes... . The constant contact on the end of a screen gives someone who can listen, but without the level of intimacy which will spook them.