Series of experiences vs a relationship

[Depression = 72% of members]

I met with a psychologist/ counsellor today who said my uBPDxgf was, 'Incapable of a relationship. People like that have experiences , serial experiences but not a relationship as you or I would understand it to be.'

I thought it was a comment worthy of discussion. Your thoughts?

[Arminius]

I met with a psychologist/ counsellor today who said my uBPDxgf was, 'Incapable of a relationship. People like that have experiences , serial experiences but not a relationship as you or I would understand it to be.'

I thought it was a comment worthy of discussion. Your thoughts?

[seeking balance]

I met with a psychologist/ counsellor today who said my uBPDxgf was, 'Incapable of a relationship. People like that have experiences , serial experiences but not a relationship as you or I would understand it to be.'

Did you ask him/her what s/he meant by the comment?

[Arminius]

My initial interpretation , which proved to be what the counsellor meant, was that BPDs , or at least ones like  'mine' , cannot have a normal relationship. Instead, they seek experiences in order to 'feel' something.

In a healthy, normal relationship, people have empathy with their partner, they grow, they nurture. BPD types like her are unable to do so. They think they are , but they ain't. Is it narcissistic in a way, totally self serving and with little conscience for the fallout.

[charred]

I think most people with BPD are incapable of intimacy as you or I would understand it. Suspect that is what your counselor was trying to articulate, but it would be best to have them clarify it.

The word relationship is a static/frozen nominalization of the ongoing process of relating... . requiring some questionable (as it is undefined) mental process to summarize all your relating,

I think when "relationship" is the term used... it is assuming that all your relating over time with someone can be summarized in to some kind of inanimate object... . something tangible you can hold in your hand.

I found that my pwBPD used the term relationship when she wanted all the positive past activities we had engaged in to be considered, rather than her recent bad behavior... . and just accepting the term had me trying to figure out what our relationship was, or had been, or would be... . and that line of thinking bogs down your mind to much to be fully present and relating, certainly it helped her tie me in knots trying to keep up with her arguments.

If you think it is irrelevant ... think about this... most of us in an r/s with a pwBPD... had a short idealizing phase, a bit of what was almost normal relating, and then a long time of horrible behaviors, brief reconciliations, walking on eggshells and so forth. When I tried to look at how much time was wonderful, how much average and how much horrible... concluded that in 4 yrs together, about 8 months was magical (idealizing)... about 6 months fairly normal, and nearly 3 yrs of it hell on earth. But the bad relating that went on during about 3/4 of the time... was offset by trying to rationalize that each bad thing she did was for a reason, and somehow that made the quantity of bad relating drop out of what I imagined was our relationship.

My pwBPD however... tracked every single detail of relating, she would not let anything drop or be forgotten. Perhaps that is what was meant about seeing it as a series of experiences?

The pwBPD typically can't see a range of grey, they split things as all good or all bad and have issues with object constancy... . listen to them describe their parents... its either all bad or they were saints. It is hard to think like a pwBPD... as we quit doing that when we were 2-4 yrs old. The adult bodies and words they have make it easy to miss the immature relating and lead to trying to attribute mature explanations to what they say and do... . which hasn't worked out well for most of us, has it?

[Arminius]

Idealisation in my situation went on for three full years. Started to change when we got a dog, which seems mad, but she started fault-finding with my interactions with the animal.

I noticed that anytime there was a close third party with us, like a friend or family member of hers, then I would later be subject to criticism. It's like that can't be nice to more than one thing, person, whatever... .

So, out of 7 years, 3 of idealisation then three of swinging back and forth, and the end piece was sudden, brutal and cruel, followed by protracted pretence at reconciliation , right up until she found the replacement.

Long may she be unhappy. I feel no sympathy anymore.

[charred]

Unable to be nice to more than one person at a time... . that is so familiar.

Would swear my pwBPD was sweet to me, while having issues with coworkers, her family, neighbors, people she passed in the street. Then when mad at me, someone else was always perfect... . other guys even... it was so odd. Being nice/idealizing certainly took effort and now seems to me to have been an act. When she was nice... there was always a phony quality to it. When she was clingy it seemed about 1/2 genuine, but when she was a hater, it was over the top real... every fiber of her being was consistent. The descriptions of Jodi Arias losing it and killing her BF... was like her,  could easily see my pwBPD killing in a rage.

When a tirade would start... it was like she was stuck in a behavior loop, it would start and run through... with her filling in what she wanted to hear and ignoring me and anything I said in the present. Hysterical is historical I guess.

I was deeply hooked with just 8 months of good behavior... shudder to think how hard it would be if she had gone on for 4 yrs... feel for you on that.

[Tausk]

It's such vague question.  What is the definition of relationship.  What actually happened.  And of course there is a spectrum to the Disorder as well as our needs and issues.  Therefore,  everyone's perspective on this might be different.  And in fact, my perspective on the whole thing has changed many times.

I used to think she was my friend, but now I realize that she doesn't have the capacity to provide what I need, even minimally, in a friend.   So to call what we had a relationship?   Just ships passing in the night.  The pamphlet on not getting stuck while leaving says something about realizing that what the two people were experiencing was very different.  This couldn't be more true.  But it's only afterward the FOG that I realize that what was happening with her was very different than me.  

But at a very minimum, a friendship also includes the concept that some level of empathy is present, and as I become vulnerable, the other person is aware of the vulnerability and has some capacity to think in terms of my welfare while engaging in her actions.  

My ex was devoid of this.  She cultivated new men without the thought process of how it would affect me.  My feelings were irrelevant.  The Disorder took over and what I consider basic human interconnection, was simply nonexistent.  

So as 2010 says, try not think about it as a relationship.  It was closer to being an interaction.

Again, just ships passing in the night.  Or maybe thinkin, I was just next guy in line at the kissing booth.

[Cimbaruns]

Tausk I couldn't agree more... .

It was an "interaction " as 2010 stated.

A relationship would be multifaceted... . it would certainly and most importantly involve friendship.

The partners ( and I use that term loosely ... . because at times I doubt we could even have been called that) would me mindful of the others feelings... . their desires... . their needs even( healthy needs)... . and would be capable of feeling empathy.

I also agree that my perspective has changed... . both while I was in "IT" and now with it being over... .

I have been reading through all of 2010 s posts and it has helped me look at just what was going on during this "Interaction" if you will. It has made me want delve into just what I am feeling in the right here and now... . going forward.

There is a lot to be said about starting in this place I find myself right now... . questioning some of my behaviors... . and gaining some real insight of who I really am... .

Another thread maybe... .

Who was I during that period of interaction with her... . what has it shown me ... . and how to I step back onto the path and journey onward... .

I'm looking forward to a "relationship" with myself

[Tausk]

I have been reading through all of 2010 s posts and it has helped me look at just what was going on during this "Interaction" if you will. It has made me want delve into just what I am feeling in the right here and now... . going forward.

There is a lot to be said about starting in this place I find myself right now... . questioning some of my behaviors... . and gaining some real insight of who I really am... .

Another thread maybe... .

Who was I during that period of interaction with her... . what has it shown me ... . and how to I step back onto the path and journey onward... .

I'm looking forward to a "relationship" with myself

[myself]

If we're not able to be close, then we're not really friends, or in a deep relationship with each other. Dishonesty, projection... . Fear, obligation, guilt... . We all slid down similar hills, at our own speeds. It can feel like being wounded in a dream, retaining scars upon waking. It's odd it hurts so much to not be with someone who isn't really there.

[goldylamont]

i feel like i had a relationship. i'm trying to be fair, but i would say over 4 years time wise maybe it was 50/50 good/bad? i mean, the last year was tough, the last 6 months hell. but i think my ex may have been more high functioning than some other's experiences. it's hard to remember all the good or bad times and really be objective, but i know i left when i felt things were consistently bad and getting worse--specifically b/c i didn't feel like i was even in a r/s any more. and what i saw afterwards forced me to see this was someone i could never be 'in a relationship' with again.

[BorisAcusio]

I guess your T referred to their lack of historical narrative. They view life, including relationships, as an unconnected series of fleeting events.

[BacknthSaddle]

I tend to agree with Boris' interpretation of this.  I'm reminded of my ex talking about her divorce from her ex-husband.  He cheated on her, didn't come home one night, and ultimately they split.  He denied a lot of what he did and underrepresented his role in the split. Finally one day she was very pleased because he "admitted to everything he did."  When I asked her if she also admitted to things she had done, including cheating on him for at least a year and a half of the three-year marriage, she said "I admitted to what was relevant."  When I asked what that was, she said "being a b*tch sometimes."  I persisted (I shouldn't have, but I was baffled at the time), and she said "none of that had anything to do with why we separated."

Point being: she was unable to see their relationship as a dynamic thing which had slowly been eroding for years because of actions on both of their parts.  He knew she was cheating, etc.  None of what happened before in their relationship had anything to do with the present.  Those were just events, unconnected to all other events. 

My ex once said she had trouble in life because she made "bad choices."  Of course, to some extent, she is right about this.  But, she makes bad choices largely because she cannot learn from past mistakes, because she doesn't see events in her life as being connected or relating to each other in any way. 

[Changingman]

This is interesting, my last RS could best be described as a series of experiences. Fractured, discontinuous, almost no clear thread from one to the next. Almost like having a relationship with multiple personalities. Her psychotic episodes I can see now were deep, really hard to reach her. The dissosociation was complete when she came out of them.

She ran the whole spectrum of cluster B types at different times, I can now pinpoint each phase and my reaction to them. Whichever worked at the time for her coping. I never had a chance. The switch from BPD sad eyed victim to hypersexual HPD to arrogant NPD to hatefull APD was breathtaking in it's speed and commitment. ANYTHING to control/avoid that darkness inside her, and to a much lesser degree me too.

The ability to 'split' themselves/others into different things is amazing, but I've read if she cannot have any real emotional intimacy then a series of fake/fantasy RS's is some kind of trade off.

My exWifes traits were much better formed much more False Self on display, but still the absolute fear of abandonment. This made for a longer RS she just couldn't let me go, but still very abusive. She didn't drink, she seems to have almost no sense/care of anyone else's inner life, including our children. Just her own feelings.

My mother... . just a witch Borderline. RS based only on her twisted feelings. Each of her children like empty vessels to be described/treated as she sees fit... . Objects. Any deviation from her thoughts are stamped out from her existence. We are prisoners or traitors and everyone else an enemy. She is worst now than she has ever been. When other people compliment us to her we fulfill her Narsisistic supply, almost no contact with us, hurt when we do. The excuses for her behaviours are laughable now... . naughty kid, spoilt, too big for your boots, my children's names are wrong, lazy, our partners are awful, we are better of single, we are weak or arrogant, we are wrong.

But she loves us. Wow!

I realise, Love? I haven't got a clue.





"I fought with the bottle, but I had to do it drunk"

[Vatz]

Long may she be unhappy. I feel no sympathy anymore.

Ouch, dude. The dark side I sense in you.

But seriously, I hope that whatever damage was done to bring you to this point will heal in time. Best wishes.

As for the topic at hand. You know, now that I think about it, I'm not so sure. It's like when you hear gibberish, and someone suggests it sounds like "I love lasagna" you can hear that when you listen to the gibberish again. Relationships Vs. Experiences. Her cheating wasn't behavior over time, it was always "that was so long ago" each time. Has anyone ever gotten the "I've been doing better lately" when the roller coaster was going down? Like, they were REALLY bad, then doing better, then bad again but seemed to talk about how they were doing better most recently until that breakdown?

Anyone else got that?

When she'd say it, I'd acknowledge it, and always felt bad when I was angry at her about her actions. I always felt like the guy that brought up the past, but the past wasn't just one incident, it was a series, yet I still felt like I was bringing up that *one time* she did something bad.

I mean, yeah over time I became boring, I became more resentful and I started to really withdraw. That was the biggest thing, was me wanting more and more alone time as time went by. It must have hurt her. Guess I can't blame her for being angry or sad about it. Perhaps if I didn't withdraw maybe there could have been some communication. But over 4 years, the damage was done. Cheating, yelling, insulting, demanding. Yet I always wonder if any of those things were the cause of our problems, or a symptom? Like I wasn't appreciating her enough?

There were some truly wonderful moments. I mean, moments that when I look back on, I feel like crying because they made me feel so happy and warm inside. This may be why it's so hard to walk away from her. Those good moments... . it's so hard to believe that it's literally the same exact person doing all those bad things, because there was such sweetness too. Was I just ungrateful for the good times?

I digress. My overall experience with her can be described as unstable, and unpredictable. It was a roller coaster. I wonder what it was for her.