Fleas (learned behaviour?): Mostly Anger

[Attie]

I mentioned in my last topic how I feel guilty about going no contact with a uBPDmother because she has nobody left in her life. She never broke it off with anyone, she's just really good at the "push you away, pull me back" game until finally everyone left.

Since even now, being 30, she still manages to scream at me, instead of talking to me in a normal tone, I think the NC is valid. I've been screamed at my whole life, I'm definitely an adult now, at least I think so and I deserve to be talked to in a normal tone. She stopped hitting me when I was 18. I think she knew, I'd leave. Which makes me doubt her not remembering anything during her dark moments. She hit me from, well, I can't remember an age where she didn't, up until I was 18. She has a certain amount of control over how far she goes.

Anyway, it's no contact now. It's ok for me. Even though part of me wants my mother. It's funny how when I wonder how hot the oven has to be for a gratin and the internet gives me different information, I still just want to call her and ask her, because she knows.

And when I feel stressed about something, I still just want to call her, and ask her for help.

She was always great at helping, listening and supporting me. And she's smart, so smart, so she always knew how to make life better.

Then she used the information I gave her in those "I need a mother" moments against me and used them to show me how I'm a bad daughter.

It was a circle, because I kept going back for more, because in the good moments, I always believed it might work out this time, I always believed maybe this time it'll be ok.

Anyway, again, no contact.

Now, I'm left with the mess she created. I'm entirely at fault when it comes to my own personality, but sometimes I feel so weak against all the emotional damage.

When I get frustrated, upset, sad, that transforms into anger, instantly. I have some fear of abandonment, it's not huge but it's there. Probably not aided by being an only child. But, I have other fears: Not being good enough, not succeeding in life, failing at everything, etc. And they transform into anger.

Intense anger.

First thing: I can't not scream. I'm very good with words, but then it just feels like words aren't enough and like I'm not communicating how very upset I am and how that can only be communicated via screaming, so I scream.

Second thing: Let's hurt this person. To show them how much I hurt. It feels like it's boiling inside of me, the need to hurt this person with words, or maybe hit them (I don't!), or something. Never strangers, always just people who are close to me. If I do end up being abusive with words during the fight, the moment I've done it, there's this huge wave of guilt and regret: I'm just like my mother. I instantly calm down. I instantly stop. I instantly apologise. I try and fix it.

As I mentioned, I'm 30 now. I'm usually good at breathing, letting go of things and calming down, but it doesn't always work and then it just feels like the anger is stronger than me and like if I don't let it out, I will spontaneously combust.

And no, walking around the block doesn't help, with every step I take not letting the anger out I get angrier. Which makes this so hard.

I keep a mood journal. And the mood journal has shown me that it's erratic.

Another flea: High expectations. Seriously, the expectations I have of my partner are insane. I have like the best person, literally, the best person at my side. But, still my expectations are so high, they can only fail at fulfilling them. I'm aware of that. Very much aware of that. But they're still there.

My worst fear was always turning into my mother. Being like her or worse not realising I'm like my mother. That has made me very self aware.

But, those fleas are so hard to battle. I just want to be able to have a good, stable relationship and not destroy it just because the little child never had the possibility of witnessing how that functions.

Anyone else feel like they're failing at battling fleas?

[lucyhoneychurch]

((Attie)) starting with a big hug because basically I've been needing one for days and no one's around to give me one - so let's shall we dear?   

When you and I feel our "personality" is at fault, there is US and then there is the way we function - my personality and yours I am betting are typically good, upbeat, ever hopeful types. Function-wise, however, we have pockets of despair festering with anger - little volcanos that were never allowed to get tapped out properly - everyone has anger, Attie, but healthier folks who had parents to guide them learned how to vent. If you've seen a volcano venting before it erupts, it's loads of steam puffing out. We always had a cap on us, didn't we, called FEAR about being able to verbalize what was making us angry. Children beaten down and disallowed their thoughts and feelings are ripe for blowouts somewhere along the line - it can be manifested with drug use, suicide or suicide attempts, self-harm/self-injury - it has to be acted out at some point. We are organisms, simple enough machines, that garbage in garbage out thing is really the way we work.

I smiled so so big when you said about the gratin, and wanting to ask her the oven temp. My daughter's a cook and baker, and there are only like TWO recipes she will always ask me about - my pecan pie and my T'giving stuffing .  But I love when she asks... .because it means those are special dishes to her because she had them here at home and wants to include them in her holidays... .potato au gratin is indeed a comfort food... .I'm sorry you've lost her as a compass for so many things.

Here's where you and I have done the same thing to loved ones - to fill the holes - the sinkholes of need down inside of us - putting them on pedestals. NO ONE can stay on a pedestal, even when they are the very best human ever... .they are going to teeter around up there in *our* estimation. They are only human. Pedestal and over-valuation always always means there is going to be a DEvaluation. That loved one in our eyes, just the way our mothers coated someone with gold and then it was always peeled off so painfully... .that loved one is going to do something human and we are going to fall apart and wail. We will feel so let down and crushed. I've done it too. Unfairly. Not knowing. Because I will tell you this, Attie, adult children of uBPD's or alcoholics what have you - we are the bastions of hope, hope always hope, always wishing, dreaming - crushed hopes, because these broken people were at the helm when we were so tender and vulnerable. THEY BROKE US because they were broken. French parents rear children who speak French if you see what I mean. We were destined to cling to hope even in the face of the most ridiculous PROOF that we were barking up the wrong tree - i.e., my mother will listen this time, she's been so nice, my mother will let me tell her I'm upset, etc.

The screaming when the abandonment hits - over the last couple of years as my marriage fell apart and the youngest was the only one living here to watch it all... .I f'bombed oh my god... .I f'bombed like no one least of me would've ever thought possible... .at him, at her, at life, at the absurdity of everything.

Well, about the hurting the other person - you do not have that right. I did not have that right to assault even my now ex much less my child with my fury. And yes walking around the block is a good idea, not to pick a fight with you or something akin to it - get a punching bag, literally, hang one in your basement or bedroom and let it rip. Kill the damned thing. But get your mouth under control somehow and beware possibly striking out - it can tilt over into that so quickly. I was actually the victim of the youngest striking out at me - more than once... .it's horrifying. Stunningly scary.

You are very aware how unfair it is to idealize your partner. I battle that dream world too but living alone right now it's off the table for awhile.

Most of what I'm trying to send you is... .you are one thing your actions another. Remember how we're advised here to not paint all disordered people with same brush... .all our mothers are not the same for example... .you and your dysfunction are not one. You can separate it out. I would guess maybe some sort of professional help could be a good beginning.

The betrayal of a good mother one minute and then the abusive one scamming you and harming you with your confidences - eternal shame and pain. But you will find a way to move beyond it. Time just has to pass.

I'm sorry for your broken heart.   

[P.F.Change]

Hi, Attie, and 

It is really important to be able to take a look at our own behavior and identify areas where it may be limiting us. This kind of work is a big part of the Mourning stages of the Survivor's Guide. We have a summary over in the right margin where you can click on the individual steps to learn more.

It can really help to have a therapist for this kind of thing. Have you ever talked with a professional about your abandonment fears or anger issues? Is that something you would consider?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[funfunctional]

Hi there,

I am really impressed with how you are so aware of your own areas you want to work on and what led to those areas.    You know what caused you to react now to situations and other people.

What an intelligent step and you are so close to fixing things and making your life BETTER and you really are going to have a good life.

You realize you are not a hitter like your mom, but, you throw out harsh words instead.  I get that because I am the daughter of a mom who was HIT but instead of hitting thru out harsh words at me growing up.  The words are painful.    I would suggest breathing and counting to 10 or leaving a room and going outside when you know you are going to use those words.  I think it's an anxeity response and I totally get it (I do it).    You let things build and wait too long to sometimes express yourself.

You WANT a mom that you can talk to.   Everyone does.   Mine passed.  Before she passed I would go to her but most often was disapointed with the response.  Figured out "why bother".   She wasn't going to be good at giving me advice and it ended up typically being about judgement or critisim or she would internalize it and make it into a stressful event.  MORE STRESS instead of helping me.

It is often difficult.   I talk to my husband about a lot.   He is a good listener.  Also, girlfriends!     

Keep up the self-discovery and learning.     You are doing a great job!        IF you decide to be a mom you are going to be a SUPER mom!

[Attie]

@lucyhoneychurch

Thank you for the big hug and one right back at you ((HUG))

Your post made me feel better, I love how far you've come and hope that one day I am where you are.

Thank you for your kind words.

@P.F.Change

Funnily enough I studied psychology just like my father... .(whatever that tells you about us both  )  and I know that Survivor's Guide by heart. And I feel like I'm stuck on step 10, always stuck on step 10.

I was sent to a psychiatrist in my teen years by my mother because she thought something was wrong with me, because I was acting up and distancing myself from her... .I never trusted him, never talked to him about anything than how school life was going. (I've had two teachers declare me an attention seeker and liar after I talked to them and then obviously, they went to talk to her... .it made me stay away from the topic with anyone else.)

I don't want to re-live my trauma, I don't want to confront all those memories and I just don't feel comfortable talking to a stranger. Maybe I should try... .So far, I haven't.

@funfunctional

Thank you I'm trying! 

[HappyChappy]

First thing: I can't not scream. I'm not communicating how very upset I am and how that can only be communicated via screaming, so I scream.

Second thing: Let's hurt this person. To show them how much I hurt. It feels like it's boiling inside of me, the need to hurt this person with words, ... .huge wave of guilt and regret: I'm just like my mother. I instantly calm down.

Anyone else feel like they're failing at battling fleas?

Attie - all sounds quiet normal for an ACORn. Does seam to centre around anger and ways of releasing anger. When I first left home, I could reduce someone to tears in seconds with my sharp toungue, if they ever had a go at me (the fools). Now it never happens.

Do you know what triggers your anger ? Your journal might point that out. Sounds like you may want to look into PTSD. If you have this there's loads of tips and support for handling it. If a walk does no good - what about running a good distance. Nothing wrong with anger, you just need to control how and when it comes out. In Japanese companies they have sound proof rooms and dummies with the boss's picture on. So staff can go there an let off steam. In the UK we have sarcasum (that may be illegal in America) .

The only bit I would question is where you said "... .huge wave of guilt just like my mother." If you were just like your mother you wouldn't be revealing all on this forum. BPD normaly arn't big on guilt when hurting others. I'm sure you'll lose your fleas, now that you realise you have them. Being NC with your BPD should also help - if she's a trigger and a primer.

[P.F.Change]

I don't want to re-live my trauma, I don't want to confront all those memories and I just don't feel comfortable talking to a stranger. Maybe I should try... .So far, I haven't.

Is it working for you to ignore the trauma, to pretend it isn't there?

It's understandable that you would be scared of dealing with the old feelings again, and also understandable that you would be reluctant to trust a stranger, especially after the experience you had with the psychiatrist when you were younger. Now that you are an adult, you have the ability to choose someone you are more comfortable with and to set your own goals. You can decide how far you are comfortable going or if you need to take a break during a session. It sounds to me like you are frustrated at being "stuck." Having support to get through it really can help. I had a very positive experience with therapy, even when it was hard. Ultimately, it's your call--but it sounds to me like it could be beneficial for you.

[AsianSon]

Intense anger.

First thing: I can't not scream. I'm very good with words, but then it just feels like words aren't enough and like I'm not communicating how very upset I am and how that can only be communicated via screaming, so I scream.

Second thing: Let's hurt this person. To show them how much I hurt. It feels like it's boiling inside of me, the need to hurt this person with words, or maybe hit them (I don't!), or something. Never strangers, always just people who are close to me. If I do end up being abusive with words during the fight, the moment I've done it, there's this huge wave of guilt and regret... .

Anyone else feel like they're failing at battling fleas?

Hi Attie,

I completely relate to the anger issue--especially toward people close to me.  My BPDm has anger issues--eruptions, lashing out at others (including strangers now).  And I developed them during childhood--don't know if it was "fleas by genes" or "fleas by learning." 

My anger is with me still, although a couple of years ago, I was with a T who pressed me about my anger toward my wife.  I came to a recognition that anger is the absolute opposite of the empathy that I have for my wife.  It really was an "aha" moment for me, and I suddenly realized how I cannot be expressing my anger toward her. 

From that point, I keep a mental picture of my anger being like splashing acid on another person's face.  This mental visual aid has helped me greatly with controlling my temper.  I'm not perfect with this, but the decrease has been huge and has the simultaneous benefit of focusing my attention toward empathy. 

I hope this might help you, and I am with you in battling fleas--everyday. 

This includes the high expectations flea.  For me, it comes in the form of "helping" or "improving" others.  So I work on accepting others for who and what they are.  First steps:  I stopped trying to help or improve unless asked. 

Wishing you peace,

A 

[Attie]

I don't want to re-live my trauma, I don't want to confront all those memories and I just don't feel comfortable talking to a stranger. Maybe I should try... .So far, I haven't.

Is it working for you to ignore the trauma, to pretend it isn't there?

It's understandable that you would be scared of dealing with the old feelings again, and also understandable that you would be reluctant to trust a stranger, especially after the experience you had with the psychiatrist when you were younger. Now that you are an adult, you have the ability to choose someone you are more comfortable with and to set your own goals. You can decide how far you are comfortable going or if you need to take a break during a session. It sounds to me like you are frustrated at being "stuck." Having support to get through it really can help. I had a very positive experience with therapy, even when it was hard. Ultimately, it's your call--but it sounds to me like it could be beneficial for you.

No it's not working for me. But somehow the idea of talking to a stranger isn't working for me either. But you're right, it could be beneficial and I've been trying to actually get to like this idea and to do it for the last 10 years.

[HappyChappy]

Hey Attie - I share your mistrust with strangers and I was also called an attention seeker, even though I was sent to school with black eyes, soaring temperatures and cloths that didn't fit. But I wished I'd succumbed to Therapy sooner. It's really helped me. It has also accelerated the healing - kind of like ripping a plaster of quickly, rather than slowly. You know I can't even think of something sarcastic to say right now - I'm healed !

[Ziggiddy]

Oh Attie - so sad to hear your pain and frustration. So moved by your honesty and your struggle. And I feel a vibrant ringing in so many of your sensations. Like you I want to run to mum because that's natural. I also have a mother who is a wealth f information and so smart and capable. This is where it gets hairy - when you remember that the next step is one where the unpredictability takes over. What will she do with your needing her? It's enough to drive you crazy. And it does. Well, me, anyway.

I'm definitely an adult now, at least I think so and I deserve to be talked to in a normal tone.


It was a circle, because I kept going back for more, because in the good moments, I always believed it might work out this time, I always believed maybe this time it'll be ok.

Now, I'm left with the mess she created. I'm entirely at fault when it comes to my own personality, but sometimes I feel so weak against all the emotional damage.


Intense anger.

First thing: I can't not scream. I'm very good with words, but then it just feels like words aren't enough and like I'm not communicating how very upset I am and how that can only be communicated via screaming, so I scream.

Second thing: Let's hurt this person. To show them how much I hurt. It feels like it's boiling inside of me, the need to hurt this person with words, or maybe hit them (I don't!), or something. Never strangers, always just people who are close to me. If I do end up being abusive with words during the fight, the moment I've done it, there's this huge wave of guilt and regret: I'm just like my mother. I instantly calm down. I instantly stop. I instantly apologise. I try and fix it.


Another flea: High expectations. Seriously, the expectations I have of my partner are insane. I have like the best person, literally, the best person at my side. But, still my expectations are so high, they can only fail at fulfilling them. I'm aware of that. Very much aware of that. But they're still there.

My worst fear was always turning into my mother. Being like her or worse not realising I'm like my mother.

But, those fleas are so hard to battle. I just want to be able to have a good, stable relationship and not destroy it just because the little child never had the possibility of witnessing how that functions.

Of course you're angry. You have every right to be angry. Feel it and know it is completely natural. Is it working for you to battle your anger or tell yourself off for feeling that way? It is what it is. Can you work on forgiving yourself for being impotent in the face of your rage? Obviously it's ideal to have a healthy way to vent it but first you might let yourself know you are WORTH feeling angry about. You are WORTH it.

Your post has a lot of swinging back and forth in it. I wonder if you have had success in separating your own authentic voice from the ones that tell you what you SHOULD be. What you SHOULD do.

I also raged at my husband. Could not understand why he just didn't love me enough. I see so much more clearly it wasn't him not loving me enough. It wasn't even ME not loving me enough. It was my mum not loving me enough.

I'm grateful for you that you are able to see your own anomalies. Sometimes it feels like it's just not enough, hey.

I am not advocating you take up religion or some type of spiritual practice - that is up to you, but I wonder if you are able to trust in something larger than yourself - some universal constant that might help you realise how far beyond your control these things really are.

If you had asked anyone who knew me for the last 20 years what my greatest fear was they would say "She's scared of becoming her mother." I see now from researching codependency that I don't need to fear that anymore. i already AM her. Or was. There was a great release in accepting that some things that I do or think or am come from that stem. And from there, start branching out. Maybe I AM her but I can still grow my own flowers.

I have to ask you - do you LIKE yourself? If you met you, would you like to just hang out, have a cuppa and a chat? 

I know - I guess we all know how much, how very much you would love to have that normal stable r'ship. Even if you were not able to learn it from your disordered mother, are there any other examples you could look to? Anyone who has got it together that you could practise from?

I hope you can learn that you are worth forgiving for every single darned mistake you ever made because you know what? Believe it or not, none of them are irreparable. in the normal world, people understand and forgive and want to help. The more insight you let them have into you, the more you let them hear you, the less you feel like screaming. Really. And fleas ... .well they're unpleasant and annoying ... but they're not fatal! Everyone's got something wrong with them

Best wishes on your journey

[Attie]

Your post has a lot of swinging back and forth in it. I wonder if you have had success in separating your own authentic voice from the ones that tell you what you SHOULD be. What you SHOULD do.

Thank you for your kind words. Interesting read and you are right about a few points, mostly the above mentioned one. I don't think I'm good at separating the voices yet, what I want, what I need and what I think I should want or should need... .trying to learn

[ennie]

I have been working a lot with the concept of projection lately... .not the freudian kind.  The idea is that when you feel an unbearable feeling in your body, you want it out and thus put it on someone else.  It is the blame and the attacking and judging that is hard for others, not our anger. 

The anger is hard for us. 

I see my SD14 dealing with such similar stuff with her BPD mom.   She absolutely cannot afford to express any anger at her mom, so she just crushes it.  That crushed anger comes out as feeling bad, bad self-image, feeling like she is different and worse than her friends.  When she can be really angry at me or her dad, and express it, hear our reactions, with some boundaries about how she expresses it, she feels so liberated and better.  Part of what has been so helpful for her is to be able to distinguish between her feelings of intense anger and her desire to blame and try to make us feel bad. 

When she can just express the anger, she feels so much better.  And I hear it better.  I asked her after one particularly disciplined and successful expression of intense anger.  She had said, "I feel really angry, so angry at you right now, that I cannot talk.  I think you are being unfair, and I do not want to talk about it until I cool off." 

I asked her later how that felt.  She said, "It was so hard when I was doing it!  It was like eating rocks not to call you names.  But you really listened to me, and afterwords I feel great, because I do not feel guilty for being mean to you." 

Anger is such a powerful emotion.  It can allow us the freedom to express what is bottled up, it can level the playing field when someone is treating us unfairly.  But if a person feels totally powerless and angry, it can be very harmful and painful.  I think the times I feel most shameful and powerless in my anger is when I use it to stomple someone and in the moment, I lose them as an ally. 

I have a mom who is not BPD but uses some of the same techniques and manipulations.  She would say, "You don't love me!" when I would not like her when I was a teen, and my anger was almost unbearable to her.  So I can relate.  Luckily, I had a very emotionally expressive dad who also let me express myself.  So I have some tools to offer my wonderful step-daughter who has a lot of anger and longs to be loved while expressing it.

I know I am not really in a place to offer advice, but I will suggest finding some place, whether a therapist or a support group or a good friend, where your anger can be valued, and where you can work on validating your anger.  It is not the anger that causes harm, but what we do to it when we feel it is unacceptable and turn it into something about the other person.   Your anger is not only appropriate, it is a valuable part of who you are that you are working to reclaim, so that you can ask to be treated the way you would like to be treated, and not repeat past pains.

[Botswana Agate]

Attie, I just wanted to let you know that I could have written your whole first paragraph verbatim, even to last being hit when I was in my late teens.  I too worry about becoming even remotely like BPDm, though my friend assures me she'll shoot me before it gets to that.    

Just sending you big ((HUGS)) as you deal with the anger issues and get a handle on what's best for you. 

[Attie]

I know I am not really in a place to offer advice, but I will suggest finding some place, whether a therapist or a support group or a good friend, where your anger can be valued, and where you can work on validating your anger.  It is not the anger that causes harm, but what we do to it when we feel it is unacceptable and turn it into something about the other person.  Your anger is not only appropriate, it is a valuable part of who you are that you are working to reclaim, so that you can ask to be treated the way you would like to be treated, and not repeat past pains.

Very interesting read, thank you. Especially about expressing anger with boundaries in a good way, without having to feel guilty afterwards.

And I am seriously considering the therapy thing.