Do they know?

[honeysuckle]

Do they ever know how much they've hurt us? I know they don't get empathy but do they ever understand the pain we feel? And how damaged we have become? Can they?

[LettingGo14]

Do they ever know how much they've hurt us? I know they don't get empathy but do they ever understand the pain we feel? And how damaged we have become? Can they?

Hello honeysuckle.  This is, perhaps, the central -- and first -- question we all ask on this board.   I know how much it hurts, and I am very sorry you are hurting.

Over time, we frame and re-frame our understanding of what happened as we read, and participate, and engage with each other. 

It is a spectrum disorder, with a wide array of experience, but I do believe that there is a recognition of the hurt.   Still, one thing I found really helpful is to consider my own beliefs, and I printed this -- Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - 10 Beliefs That Can Get You Stuck -- and referred to it often.

[purplicious]

Do they ever know how much they've hurt us? I know they don't get empathy but do they ever understand the pain we feel? And how damaged we have become? Can they?

Hello honeysuckle.  This is, perhaps, the central -- and first -- question we all ask on this board.   I know how much it hurts, and I am very sorry you are hurting.

Over time, we frame and re-frame our understanding of what happened as we read, and participate, and engage with each other. 

It is a spectrum disorder, with a wide array of experience, but I do believe that there is a recognition of the hurt.   Still, one thing I found really helpful is to consider my own beliefs, and I printed this -- Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - 10 Beliefs That Can Get You Stuck -- and referred to it often.

Thank you so much for that link! It helps to bring things into prospective. To see that its ok to feel my feelings!

[maternal]

I  believe that my ex knew.  He may not have been able to empathize with the pain he caused, but I do believe that he knew he hurt me.

[HostNoMore]

Mine knew something for sure.  She may not have known she was BPD, but she once went to a therapist and never told me the diagnosis.  She clammed tightly when I asked.

She told me things like she was a monster, crazy, and a deviant.  Of course, I should have cut bait but didn't.  She was fully cognizant of what she did to others, but she could not control it.

[Mr Hollande]

I believe my ex knows and understands, at least sometimes, what she did. I also believe she switches it off so she can cope. With all the bad things she's done to all the people who loved her over the years that's the only thing she can do to stop the guilt and shame from crushing her. I do not say that with pity or forgiveness. Ill or not I have no forgiveness in my heart for her actions.

[Hopeless777]

In my opinion they ONLY think about themselves since they're so messed up. They know that you feel terrible but they can't process it. Its all about them ALL THE TIME. Don't think for a second they care or understand your feelings. They just think (if they think at all) about themselves. Don't torture yourself.

[Mr Hollande]

Last time I spoke to my ex I said she is a sick person who hurts the ones who love her. She said I am probably right. I said there's nothing probable about it. It's a fact. She didn't object to what I said. Whether it sunk in or not is anyones guess. Who knows where her mind is? Probably no one. Least of all herself.

[Tausk]

Mine knew something for sure.  She may not have known she was BPD, but she once went to a therapist and never told me the diagnosis.  She clammed tightly when I asked.

She told me things like she was a monster, crazy, and a deviant.  Of course, I should have cut bait but didn't.  She was fully cognizant of what she did to others, but she could not control it.

And this is perhaps the most torturous existence.  To know that we cause harm, yet not really have the capacity to take responsibility for our destructive actions.  

Cassandra from the Trojan War was punished by the Greek Gods to be able to forsee the future, but have no one believe her.  Our exes are so much more deeply punished. They know it's them but that information gives them no benefit. 

Sadly, while I was in the interaction, I did not understand this fact about my ex.

Moreover do we really know how much we hurt our exes.  I realize now that I hurt my ex in extraordinary ways. Everytime I became upset with her because she failed to act like a grownup.  Everytime I subtly hinted that might leave.  Everytime I expected her to have empathy.  Everytime I lost my temper and yelled.

Each time I engaged in the above, I pierced my ex with pain on a level that I probably would go mad if I had to endure it for a second.

Did I mean to hurt her?  No.  Would my actions have been so destructive if I had been someone who wasn't Disorder?  No.  

But overtime, we became a very destructive feedback loop of triggers.  And it allows me to realize how much on different pages we were the entire time.  Really, they didn't understand us at all, and we didn't understand them at all.  

It was never meant to be true love forever.  There was no common ground.

[Mr Hollande]

But it wasn't you who conditioned her to be that way. Someone else did long before you turned up. I used to say to my ex that I wish I'd been there when her parents abused her because I could have stopped it. A fantasy of course. She was who she was when I entered her life and I never stood a chance. I tried my utmost. I went to breaking point but it was no use. She gave up on herself, on us and on me. Her way of ending it was so ugly there was no way back. Perhaps that was a warped favour to set me free? Maybe she consciously hurt me and took the guilt of knowing that as well as losing me forever just so I could be happy? It bears not thinking of. I'd rather hate her.

[Caramel]

They do.

That's why they are equipped with so many defense mechanisms to escape guilt.

That's why they go and never look back at the mess they have left behind.

[enlighten me]

I believe they do know and do feel guilt about it.

The more Ive looked at BPD the more it looks like an addiction. Imagine a heroin addict they know what they do is wrong but they do it anyway. They know that they hurt people around them but their addiction is so great that they do it anyway.

They cannot help themselves as their need outweighs the needs of others.

Yes this can be seen as selfish but in the mind of a BPD they have to do things because they are driven to it. I don't feel they do it to hurt us on purpose.

This probably isn't helpful for people trying to let go as it will cast doubt if they are doing the right thing. Remember though unless someone wants to be cured you can throw them in rehab time and again and they will still go back to their old ways.

[Tausk]

I believe they do know and do feel guilt about it.

From what I've learned about the Disorder and my experiences with my ex, my ex did not feel guilt.  She felt shame.  Guilt is a reflection of one's action.  Shame is a reflection of self.   It's part of the Disorder.  They are traumatized three years in emotional capacity.  Their wants are their needs and executive decision functions and impulse control are limited, especially when under stress.  Think about the traumatized three year old who being harshly scolded for getting caught stealing a cookie.  The child does not feel guilt because the want for the cookie was the same as the need, and they have limited ablity to control their actions.  But they know they did something wrong so they feel great shame.  And sadly, since there is not guilt, no ability to take responsibility for one's actions, the shame just builds.   My ex would often speak about trying to "behave' or be a "good girl" and when she "failed" or dissappointed me, alll she could do was feel great shame and think I was abusive.   

The more Ive looked at BPD the more it looks like an addiction. Imagine a heroin addict they know what they do is wrong but they do it anyway. They know that they hurt people around them but their addiction is so great that they do it anyway.

From what I've seen the addiction/OCD component is on the side of the "nons".  Our exes just paint us black forget us, let go and find someone else.  However, we know that our ex's are destructive to us, yet we return to them.  We know they are disordered, yet we expect them to change.  We use them as a way to not look at our own FOO issues and our own lack of self-esteem.  So in essence, they are our pain killers and addiction.  That's why we try and "recover" from our interaction.   Just think about how much more angry we tend to be at our exes when we are in a difficult spot in our personal lives, and how they don't seem to be as intrustive when things are going well. 

They cannot help themselves as their need outweighs the needs of others.

They have a difficult time separating their wants from their needs, just as a traumatized three year old.  And in the mind a three year olds want for a cookie overrides all else. 

Yes this can be seen as selfish but in the mind of a BPD they have to do things because they are driven to it. I don't feel they do it to hurt us on purpose.

Again they have to do it because a want no different from a need.  And  people wBPD do not like hurting people.  My ex was highly sensitive to pain to her or anyone else.  When the cat was sick, it distressed her to point of not being able to function.  But from what I understand (might be wrong) they do have an Angry Child and Punitive Parent personality, which can be cruel and hurtful.

This probably isn't helpful for people trying to let go as it will cast doubt if they are doing the right thing. Remember though unless someone wants to be cured you can throw them in rehab time and again and they will still go back to their old ways.

For me, getting better involved learning about the Disorder to that I could learn about why I invited the Disorder into my life.  Why I became addicted and lost in the Disorder.  And why I engaged in behavior that ultimately was destructive to me.  And then I could look at my FOO issues, and rebuild a real self, not the false self that was mirrored by my exwBPD, but a real self with respect, esteem and acceptance. 

But unless I want to be cured, all the reading about BPD, all the anger about what my ex did, all the outside focus won't matter, because I'll still be stuck in my old false self and trying to rebuild the mirror that was broken.

[OutOfEgypt]

I believe they know to a degree.  But they are so used to running from blame and guilt and shame that they really do a great job, unconsciously, at dodging the bullet.  Still, my ex would occasionally have lucid moments where she would admit to being a "crappy mom."  But then moments later it would be about what a jerk I am for thinking she's a bad mom or about how "one day" I will see that she's a good mom.

One of her new guy friends actually tried to explain to her why I was so angry at her.  She didn't understand.  He told her that it is likely because I don't believe she has any understanding of how badly she has hurt me and the extent of the damage she has done.  She told me that, and I said, "Bingo."  

The thing is... .the more awful things they do and the more ways they push away and destroy people who really love them, the greater the unconscious need to run away from the guilt and shame all the more.  Everything is about getting her blessed attention and erotic fix and making sure she and others think she's a good person.

[enlighten me]

If you go to a site for people with BPD you will read that they do know what they did.

Some however would rather bury it than face up to it.

For them to apologise for their actions is too painful as by admitting one flaw they are admitting them all and what they expose they cannot face as they see that person as a monster.

[Blimblam]

they know that we hurt and they had some part in it but they still think it is our fault and we are overreacting.

[Changingman]

They do.

That's why they are equipped with so many defense mechanisms to escape guilt.

That's why they go and never look back at the mess they have left behind.

Amazing,

This is pure logic, you are Sherlock, truly. This is hard evidence.

The coping mechanisms, the total lack of responsibility, the smear campaign, the projection, the running, the dissociation. Anything to get away from the crap they make of everything around them. They shame us in the most hideous ways.


Out of Egypt.

"The thing is... .the more awful things they do and the more ways they push away and destroy people who really love them, the greater the unconscious need to run away from the guilt and shame all the more.  Everything is about getting her blessed attention and erotic fix and making sure she and others think she's a good person."

What a mess.

It must be hell knowing that at some point you will infect everything around you like 'Typhoid Mary'.

Why indeed would they need to have any of these mechanisms to escape if you didn't know.

It's just sad really, what could have been, was never even close.

[Time4me]

I believe my husband knows.  Many times he would say I felt he was a monster or that I called him a monster.  This appeared to be his projection of how he felt about himself onto me.  I never said that he was a monster and never would.  How hurtful that would be.  I believe he knows but he can't accept any blame so it is all my fault.  I am 8 weeks from our divorce being final after 27 years of marriage.  It has been very difficult for me these last few weeks.  I appreciate everyone's input as it helps me to process what I am going through.

[Tausk]

Given that they know, why don't they change?  There's been many arm chair explanations.  Logical conclusions based on a normal emotional mind, but these are people with the DISORDER! These are people who are bat sh-t crazy.  How does the Disorder fit in with the fact that they know? 

That is the question

Or, given that "they know", how does this fact lead me to detach and depersonalize from the Disorder? 

I'm here to recover.  When I engage in blanket rants about "them" or what "they" do, it doesn't help me or more importantly newcomers find depersonalization or detachment.  There is so much bunk out there, the last thing I need to be doing it filling in the blanks with my limited understanding and claiming it to be fact.

Trying to remember to speak only when it improves the silence.

[myself]

My ex, who shows every sign of having BPD, told me many many times she was hurting me on purpose, to teach me a lesson, put me in my place, hold me accountable for the 'crimes' she was projecting onto me... .They may be acting out as if they're three year olds, but by the time they're 33? 43? Or older? They could be way more honest and accountable for their actions, especially when they waste no time holding everyone else they know to similar standards. Disordered? Yes. Know they hurt us? YES!

[Emelie Emelie]

My exBF knows.  As others have said, he can't deal with the shame and guilt so he makes it "my fault".  And woe be to me if I ever tried to tell him I was hurt.  That would make him very angry.  He knows, it makes him feel like crap, and he can't deal with it.