Can someone with BPD change?

[eagle755]

Is it possible for someone with BPD to become self aware of their actions and attempt to fix themselves in order to be with someone?

My ex BPD cheated on me. I'll leave out the details, it's like any other BPD case. She seemed so loyal and truthful, would never hurt me, etc. Then she slept with some other guy twice because he gave her attention that I apparently wasn't.

She seemed very destroyed about it and about me leaving actually. But I don't know what that emotion shes feeling really is. She moved across the country because she wanted to fix herself, be a better person and see a therapist in order to come back in a year and start things new with me.

After the break up though, she kept lying and hiding things from me.

But once she moved last week, she started to seem like she understood something was wrong with her. She confessed to the stuff she hid and lied about and everything.

Yet at the same time, I know she's still lying about things and hiding things, because she's become cold and distant, she says she's sleeping almost all times of that day because "she can't handle being awake". Doesn't make any sense to me. I've gotten mad a couple times and tried arguing, and to my surprise, she actually doesn't argue, just says "I can't handle arguing right now"

She never blamed me for the cheating, not even once, which is apparently rare for someone with BPD.

Anybody have similar stories?

[MommaBear]

This is a difficult question. I can only respond in terms of what limited knowledge I have of BPD.

They CAN change, but it's rare, and it takes a long, long time AND professional help. Other people with more experience can correct me on this if I'm not entirely right, as I've said, I'm still learning and may not have all my facts straights.

She sounds like my xhwBPD. The thing is, pwBPD are inconsistent. You might have her in a certain phase of the cycle, in which she can self-reflect and may be reaching out for help, and it may seem genuine.

In fact, it very likely *is* genuine.

But it's also temporary.

Like every other glimmer of hope they give us, it never lasts.

I think sometimes they really *do* want the roller coaster to stop, but they lack the emotional maturity to tough out the hard work they need to do on themselves in order to gain any kind of control or stability.

I've learned over time that the only thing I can control is my own behavior, and how I react to things. That being said, do you really want to give so much to someone who can't even face the truth about themselves? Do you really want to devote so much mental energy to a woman who cheats?

Think about it. There are many people (a good number on these boards, no doubt) who would cherish and legitimately appreciate all you have to give far more than she ever would.

[eagle755]

I'm not sure what it is that has me so wrapped around it. Because I know I'm never going to get back with her(at least I really hope not, hopefully my future self is smart enouhh to stay away), after what she did. I guess I want satisfaction of knowing that I was great enough to change a person with BPD.

And I can definitely agree with you on the rollercoaster. She would want to change one day, then the next it was different and she didn't care anymore, although every time I asked, she kept the "I want to change to be with you" mentality. But everything else was so rollercoastery

I'm learning a lot about the disorder now myself. She wasn't diagnosed with it. But it'd be ridiculous to say she doesn't have it. If she went to a doctor, they'd diagnose it.

She did take medicine for depression although. And stopped taking it half way through our relationship cold turkey, like an idiot

I'm glad I'm not as traumatized as everyone else is about my BPD situation. I mean, I am, but to an extent. Luckily I'm capable of reading people, and from the beginning I was able to sense something off about her, the void of emotion and empathy. I wish I ended it, but she pushed so hard to be with me, and it felt too good

[Mr Hollande]

I realised very late in the relationship that the reason for her behaviour was BPD. I was the one who brought it to her and that this could be treated and how I didn't care because I was going to support her all the way. I really did believe that after all the darkness this was the corner we had both been waiting for to turn. How many of the wrong boxes does that tick? Please laugh at my expense because I deserve it.

Either way, I kept going with her through the thickest of fog (fog, not FOG) for another month (maybe more, maybe less) when one day after a one of her horrible outbursts she proclaimed she was with her new guy and how I felt about that wasn't important. She laughed as she said it. To say I was shellshocked is an understatetment. For how destroyed I was at that moment I had enough composure to know that this was the end for me. I understand now that it probably wasn't the end for her (her numerous attempts to Contact me confirm that) but that was the moment I walked away from the so called merry-go-round.

Do they change? Some do maybe. Mine was too damned lazy, cowardly, fatigued, damaged, frightened or whatever to take the offer on the table. She is now with her new bf who is an addict and a drug dealer and I can only believe she will get worse. Sure, she has moments of reflective clarity where she comes across as wanting to change but during the five years we had together nothing concrete ever came of it. She is where she is now and good riddance.

That's my story and maybe your ex is different. We are still dealing with people (of sorts) here and not everyone is the same.

[Karmachameleon]

I did something today that might help you.  I went and read the so-called "success stories" on the Staying board.  If that's what people consider "success", I'll pass.  They say things like "she has only tried to commit suicide twice this year", "She is a very good mother to our kids, but is still verbally abusive and manipulative." "Now when he rages at me I am able to take a break and not take it personally.", "I have learned to tolerate how he is and have had radical acceptance that this is my life.  We're happier than we've ever been!", "I have learned that when she starts screaming and breaking things I just leave so that when she is better the next day she doesn't have as much shame.", "He is on 6 meds and doesn't work and sometimes I am still resentful that I have to take care of everything and he is mean to me, but it is so worth it to be together."     No thanks.  They can have it.  I guess to answer your question it depends on what you mean by "change".

[Mr Hollande]

I made the decision to stay away from that board the day I joined to avoid getting even more down about things than I already am.

[eagle755]

That helped me a ton man. For some reason it's hard to remember the crap we had tolerate and deal with. We know how crappy the relationship was and how toxic, destructive it was. Even at the end I started to wish I could get out without hurting her. Then she cheated on me and all these jealousy and angry feelings came out. And I'm still pretty destroyed over it all. I just gotta come to terms with it actually being better for me. Its a blessing to have found out about her cheating and getting out while I could. And learning about her BPD. Because it most likely would have kept going, and she would of kept sleeping with guys and never admitting it. It sucks so much. I can't even begin to understand how their brain processes things

[Lucky Jim]

Hey eagle, One aspect of the disorder, in my view, is that those who suffer from BPD lack the self-awareness to recognize that they have a problem, because their fear of facing it is too intense.  As a result, they project their issues onto others and someone else always "makes" them behave that way.  Without some willingness on the part of the pwBPD to admit that he/she has a problem, the possibility of change is extremely remote.  LuckyJim

[heartandwhole]

Hi eagle755,

I'm sorry about your breakup, it really is hard to wrap our heads around this disorder.  My pwBPD was very remorseful about hurting me, and also wanted to get back together when he had had some time alone to deal with his reactions, dysregulations, etc.  He didn't get in touch when he said he would, which I am now grateful for.  He is now married. I believe that at the time of saying it, he truly believed that that's what he wanted, and it may be the same for your ex.  But BPD can make a person very changeable, and feelings move and disappear, so truth changes with them, too.

That said, people with BPD can and do change.  Mostly it's from hard work and a deep desire to.  Some appear to have an alleviation of symptoms with age, but there is no guarantee.  Your ex has to want it for herself, not you, not anyone else.  No one can do it for her.

   I guess I want satisfaction of knowing that I was great enough to change a person with BPD.

This is quite telling, eagle, and I can relate.  But it's a trap – a very painful one. 

We have Lessons here that have helped me tremendously.  I don't know if you've seen it yet, but one of them that turned my whole perspective around is this one:

The Ten Beliefs That Keep Us Stuck

Keep writing, eagle, we're here for you. 

[eagle755]

I can see that.  She only wanted to forget everything that happened, and forget about her cheating. And not think about it at all. She would say she can't handle thinking or talking about any of it because it'd drive her crazy. In a way I can see she understands something's wrong but is incapable of helping or of letting me help.

The disorder really sucks. I've already done the typical "I'll be here for you" hero crap. But that didn't work, obviously. Telling them they have something wrong with them just makes things worse.

I hate knowing the last two years, the person I thought she was, was a complete and utter illusion.

[eagle755]

I've actually read that article before. I've read a lot on it and other disorders. Its some crazy stuff.

I feel worse for everyone else going through it. Because for me, I was lucky enough to sense her real character from the beginning. Which is probably why she clung on to me so much and for so long. Because I distanced myself from her, and not once, did I give in to her parasitic mentality. I distanced my heart and feelings very well. And that made her want me so much more, and made me want her so much less. I'm very reluctant to have been able to sense the vibe she threw at me. Or else Idk what darker place I would be in right now. Its still tough, don't get me wrong. but I'm still alive and fighting. I'm still with other women, seeing different girls every night, surfing and working out everyday, becoming an even better person. But I still have such anxiety and times of despair because of the way things came to be. She asked me to marry her, bought a 600 dollar engagement ring, 8 months of dating. I boldly said no, and she bugged me for 6 months about it, and every time, I said no. I'm glad to be a strong person. And to have kept away from it so well.

[paul16]

Also relevant to your question about whether they can change would be can you change? I know in my case, after all of the cheating and lying that I am predisposed to not trust anything about my ex. So both of us would have to change in order to have a normal, trusting, relationship.

[Aussie JJ]

Its not a yes and no answer.  Unfortunately thats black and white thinking coming through. 

They can improve their behaviour and modify their thought patterns I beleive, what you are talking about with change is different. 

Can they emotionally mature from a 2 or 3 year old to a healthy adult.  That takes time, years to go through all of those issues and resolve them. 

Think of the work we are doing now on ourselves.  We are broken in many respects, not a whole selves and we are rebuilding that.  For them they are not rebuilding something that existed or doing repairs they are creating from scratch.  That's my belief... .

When you look at it that way it is a huge task for them to undertake.  That knowledge is the ultimate FOG to me... .

[Caredverymuch]

I've actually read that article before. I've read a lot on it and other disorders. Its some crazy stuff.

I feel worse for everyone else going through it. Because for me, I was lucky enough to sense her real character from the beginning. Which is probably why she clung on to me so much and for so long. Because I distanced myself from her, and not once, did I give in to her parasitic mentality. I distanced my heart and feelings very well. And that made her want me so much more, and made me want her so much less. I'm very reluctant to have been able to sense the vibe she threw at me. Or else Idk what darker place I would be in right now. Its still tough, don't get me wrong. but I'm still alive and fighting. I'm still with other women, seeing different girls every night, surfing and working out everyday, becoming an even better person. But I still have such anxiety and times of despair because of the way things came to be. She asked me to marry her, bought a 600 dollar engagement ring, 8 months of dating. I boldly said no, and she bugged me for 6 months about it, and every time, I said no. I'm glad to be a strong person. And to have kept away from it so well.

I read somewhere that when a BPD tell you they need time to work on themselves.  That they are actually using that time and space to become narcissistic.  That was definitely my own person experience each time those words were said.  

[eagle755]

I can definitely see that.

Although one thing about her, she's very very dumb. And when she tries to seem like she has pride in herself and doing things. She looks incredibly ridiculous. Its actually very embarrassing.

When her and her recent ex broke up, she was single and didn't do anything for 10 months, of course she saw several guys to feed her attention, but it didn't go anywhere. Until I came along. She was very against sex and seemed above everything and everyone, etc. And giving off narcissist traits.

She's now doing that again. Since I'm negative to her, she blew me off. And now she's once again talking to several guys and seeming above everything

Luckily it's still embarrassing for her to try to seem above anything

And that gives me comfort knowing she's an idiot. Thank god

[antjs]

you were a survival tool for her. i would be skeptical about the "i am fixing myself to be with you" line. it takes years with some chances of success. she might be truly believing that you are a good person but i don't think she is attracted to you or she is liking you like when a child (yes they are children trapped in an adult body) likes a lollipop. very superficial feelings.

I believe that my ex would not want to be with me if she gets treated. i was used as a survival tool for her. i used to believe to be the co-star in her movie but it turned out that i was just a stunt, like many men in her life she used and still uses to survive. its a need not love. changes take years. even for us. for all people.

try to understand that the relationship for her was felt in a very different way than yours. read about radical acceptance. read about FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) and trauma bond. you can do better only when you radically accept who she is, who you are and then r\s is ended. you can introspect, be a better person and go out and date very beautiful healthy woman. there are 3.5 billion women on this planet.

[eagle755]

Definitely good points aussie and Paul.

It definitely sucks, the way things are with them.

I definitely don't, and couldn't trust her. I know when she's lying, and always knew. I'm incredible at understanding human physiology and can sense anything off. I could sense each and every moment she lied and betrayed me. Without even having to try. I've been able to do that with everyone. And right now the lies and betrayals continue. But you can never call them out or get them to confess, ever. Its impossible for them to do so. Which is amazing that I was finally able to get my ex to confess to me about cheating, simply amazing. The night I found her at his house, it took 3 hours of interrogating, and of her freaking out and saying no I didn't have sex with him. Finally I got so upset, because I knew she did, I knew for a fact I couldn't let it go that time, and I got ragingly upset that I bawled and went into such a furious rage that I picked up my 100 pound punching bag like it was a feather, threw it across the room, and went so f ing hard on it. Something about that made her break down, and she finally looked like she understood what she did, and confessed.

-I can understand that was her need for survival. But she didn't get much use out of me

Because most people in my situation would of turned around and showered her with attention as she clung on to them

I was different although

In a way, I realistically used her as she used me. She wanted my love,  devotion, affection. I gave almost none. I never once took her out on a date in two years of dating. Barely ever gave her attention.because for some reason I just knew she was off, and fooling me takes a lot.

Maybe it's that factor that made her so crazy about me.

Because she was unable to suck the life out of me, so she kept trying and trying

I'm sure she'll be back wanting me, because she doesn't hate me. And I'm not a lollipop so easily forgotten. But I won't be taking her back. Although, the sex was great, and I'm sure everyone here can agree on that part haha.

[Aussie JJ]

Yea, look I would love nothing more than for mine to change.  If I had known earlier I believe it could have happened.  Unfortunatelly that is part of the FOG. 

[gtrhr]

To echo what mommabear said they can certainly try and give effort in one of their cycles and be very sincere about it.

It's like really there are multiple individuals you're dealing with wrapped up in this one person.  At least that was the case for my ex gf.

And you know sometimes they can be reflective, and even express they want to change for your sake, their families sake, etc.

But watch out, because as "normal" people we want to believe this expression of change IS that change and it IS NOT.  The minute you let your guard down watch out!  I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I foolishly thought things are getting better.  For example I might say to myself, "the last time we talked and did the couples dialogue things went well, so it should go about the same the next time too."

My approach wouldn't change.  I'd follow the script.  Say things the way you're taught in couples counseling.  It wouldn't matter.

Then she would be back to shouting me down, itching all over, breaking out in hives, telling me to shut up, and generally acting like an insane woman.  Claims my approach is wrong this time. 

I also got to see her family dynamic as she was asian and parents lived in the household.  Her father exhibited extreme mood swings and her mother kept him in check, sometimes with violence.  So I go to witness the origins of how she became a high-conflict person herself.

You just want to be really careful about being too hopeful about it.  To waste several years of my life in a perpetual holding pattern is leaving me very distraught lately.

[gtrhr]

Sometimes I look at it like I made an investment in an emotional Ponzi scheme by being with a BPD.  Throwing more money (i.e. time, effort, hoping for change, being less argumentative) in isn't going to turn this into a real business of trust and a real romance where your feelings and dreams matter as much as hers.

The only thing to do with a Ponzi scheme is walk away from it before you lose more.

[Karmachameleon]

I made the decision to stay away from that board the day I joined to avoid getting even more down about things than I already am.

I totally understand.  But my curiosity got the best of me and when I read some of it I was like, Whoa!  That helped me.  I didn't see much success.  Mostly pwBPD putting in minimal effort to get marginally better and their SO's learning to cope with the abuse.  Not what I'm looking for.

[Mr Hollande]

I made the decision to stay away from that board the day I joined to avoid getting even more down about things than I already am.

I totally understand.  But my curiosity got the best of me and when I read some of it I was like, Whoa!  That helped me.  I didn't see much success.  Mostly pwBPD putting in minimal effort to get marginally better and their SO's learning to cope with the abuse.  Not what I'm looking for.

Before I joined BPD Family I was one of them. Maybe that's why I don't go there. Maybe it's for other reasons. I know that giving up on that doomed relationship and moving on was the right thing to do. I still have bad days but nothing so far has made me reconsider my decision to walk away once and for all.

[withoutapaddle]

I've actually read that article before. I've read a lot on it and other disorders. Its some crazy stuff.

I feel worse for everyone else going through it. Because for me, I was lucky enough to sense her real character from the beginning. Which is probably why she clung on to me so much and for so long. Because I distanced myself from her, and not once, did I give in to her parasitic mentality. I distanced my heart and feelings very well. And that made her want me so much more, and made me want her so much less. I'm very reluctant to have been able to sense the vibe she threw at me. Or else Idk what darker place I would be in right now. Its still tough, don't get me wrong. but I'm still alive and fighting. I'm still with other women, seeing different girls every night, surfing and working out everyday, becoming an even better person. But I still have such anxiety and times of despair because of the way things came to be. She asked me to marry her, bought a 600 dollar engagement ring, 8 months of dating. I boldly said no, and she bugged me for 6 months about it, and every time, I said no. I'm glad to be a strong person. And to have kept away from it so well.

I read somewhere that when a BPD tell you they need time to work on themselves.  That they are actually using that time and space to become narcissistic.  That was definitely my own person experience each time those words were said.  

Wow, that time and space thing is very interesting. The same thing happened in my case. After 10 years she broke up with me and said lets take 3 months apart to work on ourselves and get healthier. I worked on the things that I felt were valid that she asked for. I saw no change in her attitude, but like you said there was this narcissistic attitude.

I was told that I needed to be the man she wanted me to be, and if I didnt I would lose her. And just a bunch of other cold remarks. She would resent me if we got back together.

This whole thing is weird. I dont know if its fully BPD but it seems like it. From my understanding there isnt only BPD but some other things as well. I just feel sorry for this poor girl.

[Dutched]

Not to hijack, speaking from my hart.

I did something today that might help you.  I went and read the so-called "success stories" on the Staying board.  If that's what people consider "success", I'll pass.  They say things like "she has only tried to commit suicide twice this year", "She is a very good mother to our kids, but is still verbally abusive and manipulative." "Now when he rages at me I am able to take a break and not take it personally.", "I have learned to tolerate how he is and have had radical acceptance that this is my life.  We're happier than we've ever been!", "I have learned that when she starts screaming and breaking things I just leave so that when she is better the next day she doesn't have as much shame.", "He is on 6 meds and doesn't work and sometimes I am still resentful that I have to take care of everything and he is mean to me, but it is so worth it to be together."     No thanks.  They can have it.  I guess to answer your question it depends on what you mean by "change".

I is a personal choice one makes. As you profoundly announce it would not be your choice, however respect the choice of others to make their r/s work in those circumstances. And YES, for those individuals it is a success story, not a so-called “success story”… 

  Been there 30+ yrs… my friend.

[eagle755]

She was diagnosed with depression when she was younger. But I'm the one that thinks she has BPD. Everything fits way too perfectly for her not to have it, and everyone's stories are so similar. Yeah, at first she wanted me to be the man she wanted to be with. Then I find her screwing another guy and just chucked her in the garbage. Doing so must have sparked her abandonment and she wanted me back so badly. She begged and pleaded for me back, then I came back and tried talking things out and talking about being together in the future, that's when she stopped begging and pleading. Instead she ended up not wanting to talk about it at all anymore, didn't even want to think about what happened, always said "it hurts too much to think about" "it hurts too much to see me or talk to me". All the while she was hiding things, talking to several guys I hate, lying, telling people I was a bad person, and even contacted the guy she slept with a few times. At the same time she was giving me "I wanna start over with you, I love you" crap.

Basically the say one thing, but actions show another, trait.

For some reason, I've barely gotten the cold remarks, and hateful comments. I'm not sure why. I was literally the perfect boyfriend, so it'd be hard to even rationalize anything I did as bad and resent me. The only thing I did was, I stopped paying attention to her because I couldn't handle the stress anymore, which is why she cheated apparently. But also, she didn't technically cheat, she broke up with me in a fight a month prior. But we kept doing relationship things so I figured we were still together.

Bpd sucks man, as if women aren't hard enough to deal with

[Karmachameleon]

I is a personal choice one makes. As you profoundly announce it would not be your choice, however respect the choice of others to make their r/s work in those circumstances. And YES, for those individuals it is a success story, not a so-called “success story”…  

 Been there 30+ yrs… my friend.

I totally get that and would never dream of making such a comment on the staying board to people who are giving it their all.  Just sharing something that helped me detach and offering some perspective.  Best to you.