Let's practice Radical Acceptance together?

[ziniztar]

I think I have a new angle on this.

Radical acceptance has a lot to do with expectations. Right? Because acceptance is necessary there were expectations and reality do not match.

What I'm realizing is that my expectations of him are not always realistic either. In some way, I expect him to take care of me. I can be the adult and can be the one taking care of everything but I don't wanna. When I'm at his place after he's had a dreadfully busy week I resent him for not getting groceries, I resent him for overplanning his week and I resent him I have to be the adult. While, I could also get up, asses the situation, get him out of bed and get groceries together. Take the lead without resenting him for it. He does not have a responsibility to take care of me - I do!

If it were a week where he had been at home 24/7 and hadn't done anything, I would have had a point. Now it made perfect sense to understand his situation. If I would have had a superbusy week with overtime hours and not being at home, he would have annoyed me as well.

Anyone else any thoughts on their own (un)realistic expectations, that can influence their acceptance?

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[gtrhr]

In theory I would like to go back to my xBPDgf.  When I think about our long drawn out history, there was a time I was practicing stoicism, as much as I possibly could  I think you could called it "radical acceptance" of a sort (i.e. I can change my own reactions knowing that she's not going to change), but even stoicism has to have limits in regards to what you could tolerate.  Clearly I wasn't in a happy state, but I was also determined to not let her erratic changes in mood and behavior affect me as much as they had previously.

Obviously any form of physical abuse shouldn't be tolerated.  But what about verbal abuse, emotional manipulations, and all of the other traits?  My limit was being told that in the future I would "murder her" and that during consensual sex she felt like she was "being raped."  My limit was also being told one night she "thought she hit my car while backing out of the driveway" but didn't bother to share with me until several hours later.  This coming from a person who would launch into a tirade if your car tire went 2 inches onto her lawn.  I'm not exaggerating as I'm sure many of you can attest to in your own relationships with pwBPD.  Even using calm language like you are taught in couples counseling, "When you do X I feel Y" as I attempted to explain to her how upset I was that she didn't inform me about my car it still ended up in her losing control, even trying to make me exit her vehicle late at night far away from her house.  She threatened to call the police - and she was the one acting insane.  I said to go ahead and do that if she felt it necessary, but I'm not going to be stranded just because she told me "get out".  These behaviors added up to really dangerous behaviors in my mind.  Should I have radically accepted them?  Hell no.

The notion of radically accepting abuse is something I cannot accept, and I don't believe anyone should.

I do think there is a lot of validity in training yourself to become non-reactive to someone else and their emotional extremes, and then seeing if there is anything to work with in the relationship.  :)oes their behavior change once your alleged "triggers" to them are removed?  If that is what radical acceptance means I can understand it.  But it's got to get you somewhere and not just keep you endlessly in a holding pattern.

I think once you make changes to yourself and the other person continues really unacceptable behavior it's time to radically accept it's over and move on.

[yeeter]

For me, expectations were/are a hurdle. And letting go of these is analogous to a grieving period.  Loss of the concept that your relationship will never be what you hoped. 

In the thermostat analogy it means it had a couple cross fused logic gates during production.  It's never going to function normally.  I can learn some if it's function. Some I might be able to 'fix' but the basics are never going to change

But I can change what I expect of it.  Somedays it's going peg off the chart even though it says it's within normal range.  But I know this will happen sometimes and no need to react

I could get upset at it.  That would do me no good. And wouldd only make it respond more erratically.

So it's accept. Or not accept (doesn't work well for either side, been there done that).

[waverider]

In theory I would like to go back to my xBPDgf.  When I think about our long drawn out history, there was a time I was practicing stoicism, as much as I possibly could  I think you could called it "radical acceptance" of a sort (i.e. I can change my own reactions knowing that she's not going to change), but even stoicism has to have limits in regards to what you could tolerate.  Clearly I wasn't in a happy state, but I was also determined to not let her erratic changes in mood and behavior affect me as much as they had previously.

Obviously any form of physical abuse shouldn't be tolerated.  But what about verbal abuse, emotional manipulations, and all of the other traits?  My limit was being told that in the future I would "murder her" and that during consensual sex she felt like she was "being raped."  My limit was also being told one night she "thought she hit my car while backing out of the driveway" but didn't bother to share with me until several hours later.  This coming from a person who would launch into a tirade if your car tire went 2 inches onto her lawn.  I'm not exaggerating as I'm sure many of you can attest to in your own relationships with pwBPD.  Even using calm language like you are taught in couples counseling, "When you do X I feel Y" as I attempted to explain to her how upset I was that she didn't inform me about my car it still ended up in her losing control, even trying to make me exit her vehicle late at night far away from her house.  She threatened to call the police - and she was the one acting insane.  I said to go ahead and do that if she felt it necessary, but I'm not going to be stranded just because she told me "get out".  These behaviors added up to really dangerous behaviors in my mind.  Should I have radically accepted them?  Hell no.

The notion of radically accepting abuse is something I cannot accept, and I don't believe anyone should.

I do think there is a lot of validity in training yourself to become non-reactive to someone else and their emotional extremes, and then seeing if there is anything to work with in the relationship.  :)oes their behavior change once your alleged "triggers" to them are removed?  If that is what radical acceptance means I can understand it.  But it's got to get you somewhere and not just keep you endlessly in a holding pattern.

I think once you make changes to yourself and the other person continues really unacceptable behavior it's time to radically accept it's over and move on.

Radical acceptance does not mean accepting that you should take abuse. It may mean that you accept that at times they will abuse you as part of their coping mechanisms, that you will then have to enact a boundary and remove yourself. By radically accepting this cause and consequence you will be able to do this without taking it personally and being hurt. As opposed to taking it "stoically'.

An example: You have a leaky raincoat that cant keep out anything stronger than a shower but its comfortable. Most of the time it copes but occasionally it wont. You know this. If you go out and it rains heavy you get wet. You can either be stoic get wet, get annoyed with it again, but persevere. Or you can accept that it wont be up to the job, and go change it. May be inconvenient but you knew you would have to do this if it rained hard, and hard rain is always a possibility, you know this. Your boundary in this case is that you are not going to stand there getting a drenching when you can do something about it.

[gtrhr]

that you will then have to enact a boundary and remove yourself.

Precisely.  To me this part about having a boundary and removing yourself, as well as understanding that someone who has a history of verbal and/or physical abuse is not going to change unless they are actively getting help are things I think should be the focus of the radical acceptance.

[White_Lily]

Radical acceptance does not mean accepting that you should take abuse. It may mean that you accept that at times they will abuse you as part of their coping mechanisms, that you will then have to enact a boundary and remove yourself. By radically accepting this cause and consequence you will be able to do this without taking it personally and being hurt. As opposed to taking it "stoically'.

What a great way to put it Waverider! Thanks so much. I wouldn't be able to interpret "radical acceptance" this way on my own.

[waverider]

that you will then have to enact a boundary and remove yourself.

Precisely.  To me this part about having a boundary and removing yourself, as well as understanding that someone who has a history of verbal and/or physical abuse is not going to change unless they are actively getting help are things I think should be the focus of the radical acceptance.

For this to be acceptance you need to accept that it is outside of your control. If you are jumping up and down trying to get them to go to therapy and they are refusing. That is not acceptance. That is realization they need help without accepting that it is out of your control.


The purpose of radical acceptance is to relieve your burden of trying to change what YOU cant change. Letting go if you like.

[waverider]

There are a lot of concerns being expressed at the moment about members wanting to convince their partners, current or ex, into seeing things the way they do and struggling to accept that things" just are" so I though I might just resurrect this thread for anyone who still struggles with what acceptance is about.

[gtrhr]

Still this term seems way too open ended how it can be applied. It seems so easy for anyone to come along and twist this around to suit their purposes.  Imagine what a BPD would do with that information if they heard you should radically accept them!

"Radical acceptance" could easily be interpreted that it's the idea that you can adapt to their awful behavior since they won't change.  When really the only adaptation you should be doing is rejecting them from your life.   It's a radical step to reject them for sure if they've been in your life for years or months.  But you're just radically accepting abuse if you chose to continue on with the person.

I think the term "acceptance" is being used interchangeably with "recognition" in some of the replies earlier.

Why should I "radically accept" someone's behavior that I already "recognize" as horrible and abusive?  It's not like I'm denial about that it in the first place.  There is nothing radical to do there or accept even.  I'm not even in denial that they will change even though part of me still wants to try.  The true me rejects abuse, not accepts it.  The only "radical" part for me is really making that next step of rejecting the person fully because that's what really needs to happen in most of these situations.  And because it's so painful since you already had a deep love bond with them and believe they did too.

Radial rejection then?  Is that a concept?

I think what the BPD wants is for you to do is actually just as I described.  Be a stoic.  Accept them.  Take the abuse from them and be non-reactive.  Meet all of their needs and don't worry about your own.  Or better yet come whining back to them for approval so that you're totally dependent on them for your feelings of self worth.  Or better yet, be clueless and not know how her game works at all!

Mine wasn't willing to change for very long, oh sure she made some brief efforts but they evaporated quickly in meltdowns, and wondering "why we need to talk" about relationship issues for 15 minutes a day as our therapist prescribed after months of abuse.  Why didn't she have to radically accept what the therapist said we have to do?  That's just it, it's never been a two sided relationship and probably the same for most folks on this board.

No one suggests to radically accept a mass murderer's behavior.  So why should I radically accept that a BPD goes around recklessly destroying relationships.

The answer I won't and I don't.

I get it if it hearing it the first time helps someone go from point A (stuck) to point B (moving on) and they finally acknowledge they need to give up trying with their partner then it's of value.  But if it keeps you stuck in the cycle it's not a good concept.

[123Phoebe]

Still this term seems way too open ended how it can be applied. It seems so easy for anyone to come along and twist this around to suit their purposes.  

Hi gtrhr,

Could the same be said for how you're interpreting Radical Acceptance?  To suit your purposes?

I liken RA to the Alcoholic's Anonymous Prayer:

God grant me the serenity to "Accept" the things I cannot change,

the "Courage" to change the things I can

and the "Wisdom" to know the difference.



I appreciate your thoughts on this subject very much!  We're all different and had wildly different situations in which we came to this site from.  I love different perspectives and anything that makes me think about different ways of looking at things.  The one thing I believe we all had/have in common is: Confusion.

Did it help me to blame the people with BPD (traits) in my life for my confusion?  Not really.  Accepting that I feel confused is what has helped the most, and the steps I can take to unravel my own twisted thoughts and emotions.

It takes courage to change the things we can.

[waverider]

Still this term seems way too open ended how it can be applied. It seems so easy for anyone to come along and twist this around to suit their purposes.  Imagine what a BPD would do with that information if they heard you should radically accept them!

"Radical acceptance" could easily be interpreted that it's the idea that you can adapt to their awful behavior since they won't change.  When really the only adaptation you should be doing is rejecting them from your life.   It's a radical step to reject them for sure if they've been in your life for years or months.  But you're just radically accepting abuse if you chose to continue on with the person.

I think the term "acceptance" is being used interchangeably with "recognition" in some of the replies earlier.

Why should I "radically accept" someone's behavior that I already "recognize" as horrible and abusive?  It's not like I'm denial about that it in the first place.  There is nothing radical to do there or accept even.  I'm not even in denial that they will change even though part of me still wants to try.  The true me rejects abuse, not accepts it.  The only "radical" part for me is really making that next step of rejecting the person fully because that's what really needs to happen in most of these situations.  And because it's so painful since you already had a deep love bond with them and believe they did too.

Radial rejection then?  Is that a concept?

I think what the BPD wants is for you to do is actually just as I described.  Be a stoic.  Accept them.  Take the abuse from them and be non-reactive.  Meet all of their needs and don't worry about your own.  Or better yet come whining back to them for approval so that you're totally dependent on them for your feelings of self worth.  Or better yet, be clueless and not know how her game works at all!

Mine wasn't willing to change for very long, oh sure she made some brief efforts but they evaporated quickly in meltdowns, and wondering "why we need to talk" about relationship issues for 15 minutes a day as our therapist prescribed after months of abuse.  Why didn't she have to radically accept what the therapist said we have to do?  That's just it, it's never been a two sided relationship and probably the same for most folks on this board.

No one suggests to radically accept a mass murderer's behavior.  So why should I radically accept that a BPD goes around recklessly destroying relationships.

The answer I won't and I don't.

I get it if it hearing it the first time helps someone go from point A (stuck) to point B (moving on) and they finally acknowledge they need to give up trying with their partner then it's of value.  But if it keeps you stuck in the cycle it's not a good concept.

Radical Acceptance does not mean compromising your boundaries or values. It means not wasting your energies trying to alter what you cant alter, eg the basic character of the issues in front of you. Rather accepting they are there and finding an alternative way to live your life around the issue, using you energies on things you can influence.

To use an analogy, if a pwVBPD is likened to a mountain standing in your path to your happiness then you dont hammer away at the mountain with a pick axe trying to cut a path through on your chosen route. Instead you recognise that it is there, attempting to hammer through it is pointless and you find a more passable way around it so you can continue. That is acceptance

Of course people can twist the term for their own cause. That is their problem not yours.  your reality is yours. It could be said the accepting that someone else's reality is non of your business is radical acceptance in itself. The "radical' part is that it is not the "norma'l way

[ziniztar]

To use an analogy, if a pwBPD is likened to a mountain standing in your path to your happiness then you dont hammer away at the mountain with a pick axe trying to cut a path through on your chosen route. Instead you recognise that it is there, attempting to hammer through it is pointless and you find a more passable way around it so you can continue. That is acceptance

I love your analogies waverider! 

[White_Lily]

I agree with Ziniztar, and thank you waverider for bringing this thread back to life. I think it is a core issue to dealing with a BPD loved one. Without radical acceptance, it would be extremely difficult to consider staying in a relationship.  When I fail to accept a challenge or a situation related to my partner's behaviour, I remind myself that I am dealing with a mentally ill person, which helps me transforming my anger into empathy (most of the time, but not always).  Empathy helps one resisting the urge to try to change things because when you put yourself in the BPD's shoes you realize how difficult it is to change anything. A BPD person did not choose to be mentally ill.  So when you keep working on the basis of empathy, radical acceptance becomes easier to achieve.  It is like anything else in life, if you keep practicing "something," you become better at it. 

[Moselle]

I must admit, like GT, I was very sceptical about radical acceptance, and I really couldn't see myself doing it, until the startling realisation that all the effort I had put in, all the money I had spent (4 years of therapy, couple and individual) had not made the slightest difference to my uBPDw whatsoever. I had been chipping away at that mountain (thanks waverider, I also love that metaphor), thinking I could move it. So I tried it. I put down that pick-axe, and set myself free from a thankless and dead-end job.

And you know what, the mountain moved on its own. Not much, but it moved.

[White_Lily]

I totally agree with you Moselle. Letting go moves mountains! Good for you. I wonder sometimes, are we challenged by BPDs or are BPDs challenging us?

[gtrhr]

I radically accept that I am outnumbered on this topic.    But I hear people saying radical acceptance doesn't mean compromising your principles or subjecting yourself to abuse.  Glad to know that.

Analogies can be useful.  When I felt weakest was when I used an analogy that I'm a fish in a pond and she is the fisherman - she has control and she always chose to throw me back.

Then i started to realize I don't need to look at her as larger than life.  I actually started to see myself more as a mountain in the relationship, not like the analogy of someone standing between happiness and chipping a path, but more like my emotions and stability are the ones that were solid and just sort of always stood there.  Once I could look at her as a mountain climber who was weak and chose to give up it kind of changed my perspective a lot.

I mean obviously we're both dynamic individuals and the analogies go only so far, but it really can help not to visualize yourself as powerless in the situation.

[waverider]

I radically accept that I am outnumbered on this topic.    But I hear people saying radical acceptance doesn't mean compromising your principles or subjecting yourself to abuse.  Glad to know that.

Analogies can be useful.  When I felt weakest was when I used an analogy that I'm a fish in a pond and she is the fisherman - she has control and she always chose to throw me back.

Then i started to realize I don't need to look at her as larger than life.  I actually started to see myself more as a mountain in the relationship, not like the analogy of someone standing between happiness and chipping a path, but more like my emotions and stability are the ones that were solid and just sort of always stood there.  Once I could look at her as a mountain climber who was weak and chose to give up it kind of changed my perspective a lot.

I mean obviously we're both dynamic individuals and the analogies go only so far, but it really can help not to visualize yourself as powerless in the situation.

Maybe this analogy may suit you better:

You are a large rock in a BPD river, trying to dam the river is pointless, it will just back up until the level builds and overflows you. Better to accept you are a solid rock with a solid foundation, accept that the river will find another path and flow around you, allow yourself to become a safe island in that river.