Anyone else experience "The Turn?"

[Turkish]

I'm still going through the Lawson book, in the section on Witch mothers.

One of the most devastating experiences for children of borderlines is “the Turn.” The Turn is a sudden attack, the abrupt withdrawal of love and affection, and razor-sharp words that can pierce the heart as painfully as an arrow. The messages aimed at children include: “I want you out of my life,” “I’d be better off without you,” and “I should never have had you kids.

I forgot until I read that, but I remember numerous times my mother telling me, "I wish I had never adopted you!" (She got me at 2.4 years).

I'm trying to think how I felt when she said things like that. I have an excellent memory of my childhood, but I can't remember how I felt. I think I felt nothing. No wonder I turned out avoidant... .

My uBPDx never said something like that, thankfully, bit despite our two beautiful kids, I remember thinking that about her, "I wish I had never met her." Maybe I was mirroring my mom emotionally in a way.

[Kwamina]

Hi Turkish,

Unfortunately I too have experienced the 'Turn' several times and it had a huge impact on me. I still often think about one particular Witch attack by my mother when I was 18 years old. I didn't see it coming at all and was totally unprepared for the brutal verbal attack. I was already struggling with depression for many years but was trying to clime out of this abyss but this Witch attack sent me right back down there. It was scary to witness because everything about my mother changed, her facial expression and the sound of her voice, to be honest it felt like I was dealing with some kind of demon. She kept blaming me for all the things that were wrong in her life and accusing me of wanting to ruin her upcoming birthday party for her. What made this particularly hurtful was that this happened a few hours before my first soccer match and in my first week of college but she didn't care about all that. The next day she had a grande birthday party and pretended like nothing had happened the day before.

What I find scary about the 'Turn' is that you don't know what's next. When the Witch comes out she can't be reasoned with and that why it's best to just end the interaction and get out of there. When you look into the eyes of your BPD loved ones when they've turned into the Witch, it's clear that they'll stop at nothing to hurt you. I'm sorry you've also experienced your mother telling you such hurtful things. How does this make you feel now? Are the things your mother said still things you repeat to yourself in your head?

I don't know if you thinking about your ex that you wished you had never met her is mirroring your mom. I often think that I really wished I had never been raised by my uBPD mom but I don't believe that's mirroring her. That's just me being real about the extreme level of emotional and psychological abuse I had to endure and how much this has damaged me. After all the experiences I've had with my uBPD mom, if I could have had the choice back then with all this knowledge I have now, I definitely wouldn't have chosen to stay with her. Unless she was willing to acknowledge her problems and work on them, but she wasn't.

[HappyChappy]

My uBPDm would turn often. She often told me and everyone “I hate you.” So I ignored that. But sometimes she embellished it, by telling me “Your Dad desperately wanted a girl, so when you came we were both soo disappointed.” Which did hurt. Even “You were unwanted. Why didn’t I stop at one.”  Appalling things to say to young children. Good thing my BPD is thick, I would say ":)id you stop at one because counting is difficult ?". OK maybe I said that in my head.

[nomom4me]

Yes, I know it well.   I have identified a trigger, when my mom is grieving she can "turn on a dime".  We lost a sibling when I was young, initially my mom pulled us out of her school to keep her "babies" (I was a pre-teen) close to her.  Within months she was driving around crying (safety first!) moaning about how she was "done raising kids".

When I didn't have the wedding she planned for me (without asking me if we wanted what she chose) she turned from glowing (if delusional) mother-of-the-bride to acting as if she had been left at the alter.  I have identified that as the moment when my mom turned on me, from that point on she has had specific issues with me and people outside the family can see that she has a problem with me, although no one can figure out why as I am the only normal (socialized, non-engulfed) sibling.

When her mother died a few years ago, I made the mistake of letting her make some plans for me around the funeral.  Of course this was the perfect chance for her to go waif, and "need" ridiculous things - at one point she asked me to sleep in the bed of the deceased.  The witch is always there, the waif is just a puppet.  I disengaged after my grandmas funeral and am still being punished for it, but I'm an adult now.  I'm out of the FOG; I have been badmouthed beyond the point where I could possibly feel obligation or guilt, fear is less now that I see her attacks as evidence.  With therapy and validation from reading here I know I got away from crazytown and I didn't hurt anyone,  I made the best choices for me and my family. 

[Changingman]

My uBPDm would turn often. She often told me and everyone “I hate you.” So I ignored that. But sometimes she embellished it, by telling me “Your Dad desperately wanted a girl, so when you came we were both soo disappointed.” Which did hurt. Even “You were unwanted. Why didn’t I stop at one.”  Appalling things to say to young children. Good thing my BPD is thick, I would say ":)id you stop at one because counting is difficult ?". OK maybe I said that in my head.

The turn happened so often, it was just... .normal... .a constant... .still happening now at age 87. As 1 of 5 children... .

"Your Dad didn't want you, he told me you want IT you look after IT."

"I think it's disgusting the way people blame the parents for their children"

"You're lazy" 

( I had jobs since 9 years old... .paper round, milkmans help, made my own meals, had to dress, educate and raise myself, hardly any food ... etc )

"You're useless" or "you're getting a bit BIG for your boots"

"I wanted a girl"

"You're gay" or "That girl is trying to capture you/get pregnant/is an alcoholic"

"I don't like your wife, what does she ever do?" then when I split with her ( BPD/NPDw obviously ) "I've always liked her"

It was comical and incredibly hurtful.

Rages were regular, all of us would try to leave... only to be told we couldn't. Any trouble we got into shot fear through us as to her response.

I remember telling people I had a great childhood... .HA... .denial is a great thing.

[P.F.Change]

I'm trying to think how I felt when she said things like that. I have an excellent memory of my childhood, but I can't remember how I felt. I think I felt nothing. No wonder I turned out avoidant... .

Turkish, many of us learned not to feel our feelings. It's possible you truly felt nothing, or perhaps you didn't feel safe with the feelings you did have or else not able to cope with them, and repressed or dissociated from them. Learning to acknowledge that I was even experiencing an emotion was a challenge for me, let alone learning what to call it. Emotional literacy is a challenge for a lot of us.

My mother did say terribly hurtful things to me when she was acting like the Witch. Many times she would not be able to remember saying them afterwards and would accuse me of making things up. It was traumatic.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[Turkish]

I'm trying to think how I felt when she said things like that. I have an excellent memory of my childhood, but I can't remember how I felt. I think I felt nothing. No wonder I turned out avoidant... .

Turkish, many of us learned not to feel our feelings. It's possible you truly felt nothing, or perhaps you didn't feel safe with the feelings you did have or else not able to cope with them, and repressed or dissociated from them.

I remember her saying this stuff when I was young. When I got older, I remember thinking in response to "I wish I'd never gotten you!" was "You and me both!"

It's funny, but I had forgotten about this stuff until I got to the section in the book. I don't think it was something repressed, it was just so long ago that I forgot it. As I write this, I still have trouble searching for a feeling about it, other than it being a ridiculous and hurtful thing to say to a child.

See what I did? I referred to myself in 3rd person. 

[Turkish]

My uBPDm would turn often. She often told me and everyone “I hate you.” So I ignored that. But sometimes she embellished it, by telling me “Your Dad desperately wanted a girl, so when you came we were both soo disappointed.” Which did hurt. Even “You were unwanted. Why didn’t I stop at one.”  Appalling things to say to young children. Good thing my BPD is thick, I would say ":)id you stop at one because counting is difficult ?". OK maybe I said that in my head.

The turn happened so often, it was just... .normal... .a constant... .still happening now at age 87. As 1 of 5 children... .

"Your Dad didn't want you, he told me you want IT you look after IT."

"I think it's disgusting the way people blame the parents for their children"

"You're lazy" 

( I had jobs since 9 years old... .paper round, milkmans help, made my own meals, had to dress, educate and raise myself, hardly any food ... etc )

"You're useless" or "you're getting a bit BIG for your boots"

"I wanted a girl"

"You're gay" or "That girl is trying to capture you/get pregnant/is an alcoholic"

"I don't like your wife, what does she ever do?" then when I split with her ( BPD/NPDw obviously ) "I've always liked her"

It was comical and incredibly hurtful.

Rages were regular, all of us would try to leave... only to be told we couldn't. Any trouble we got into shot fear through us as to her response.

I remember telling people I had a great childhood... .HA... .denial is a great thing.

Changingman, those were horrible things that you were told! To remember those things decades later indicates that they were seared in your mind. Were your parents (or your mom) ever nice to you? Or was The Turn just a roller coaster shooting down a one-way path? Why do you think you told people you had a great childhood?

[Changingman]

Hi Turk,

Thanks for replying, these are a few of hundreds of stuff she said and did to us, I wasn't singled out, she did it to all of us.

She was such a tough but hurt person we all tried to make her feel better, it was part of all our jobs. After our father left/was ejected the real mess of her disorder came out in full bloom.

The happiness I talked of in my family came from my siblings, I realise I was talking about them really, the possibility of us all making the family successful and whole. It was a well repeated family tennet to be supportive to each other.

But...

I've had to protect my own 2 children from her crazy.

No, I cannot remember any real joy from her unless it was me being complimented, then her 'pride' that others thought her a great Mum.

I'm still thinking that BPD is just a whisker away from NPD. She seems still to have little to no real/authentic feelings, but raged/rages constantly.

[funfunctional]

I have to be honest.  I really don't think if a parent says "I wish I didn't have kids" that mean they are borderline personality disorder.  There is more to it than that.    The turn I think of as a non-sensicle crazy behavioral change that someone goes from "I love you" to "I really hate you". 

Some of what I am hearing sounds like anxiety responses.   That to me isn't borderline personality disorder.   Extreme anxiety responses can lead to a lot of loose jaw comments.

The turn to me is when they are paranoid and really believe that they have a reason to hate someone cause after all this person didn't do or respond "this way" to them.  The turn is personal.  It is illogical. It is grounded in childhood wounds and old emotional responses that are still very present from childhood.  "she rejects me and does't like me so I HATE HER FIRST".     

I just went thru a TURN today.   My sister turned on me because she is choosing to be with a bad guy that is an enabler to her addictions and will accept her crazy behavior and applaud it.  This man is using my sister's mental illness and taking advantage.   She found her loophole to hate me.  She poked and prodded and worked hard at it.  She hates me because "underlying reason" I am NOT mentally ill and I am keeping it together.  I am a good mother.  I am successful in my job.  I am divorce but dated and found a new guy that is level & balanced & non addict.  He is stable and steady.   

She is a mess and always has been and that's why she hates me.

[Turkish]

I'll toss out another weird episode.

When I was 15, my mom was raging on me harshly. We were outside. She may have been smacking me around, but she did that so much in those years, I don't remember exactly. My 12 year old neighbor and friend rode up on his dirt bike to see if I wanted to go riding. My mom, her face red with tears of rage, turned to my friend and sweetly said, "Hi Jimmy! You know, you're such a cute, nice boy," and proceeded to try and pinch his cheeks under his helmet. She then followed with, "unlike MULEhole here!" (language subsituted), as she jerked her thumb over her shoulder at me, the rage returning to her voice. I remember my buddy just looking at us, deadpan (he's still good at that). Those were the worst years, around the time she was raging on me so badly that I collapsed onto the ground in a short seizure, to this day, the one incident where she admits, "I may have crossed the line that time."

Today, my friend and I still mock her tone of voice and language as an inside joke, and we chuckle. He got it. His mother never raged at him; that was reserved for the half hour yelling and screaming episodes she directed towards his dad, many of which I witnessed. Since my mom never married or had boyfriends when I lived with her, I was the outlet for her rage. I temoved myself from it by moving out the day I turned 18.

[P.F.Change]

That sounds like a hurtful experience, Turkish.

Where do you think your memories and feelings about it fits in the Survivor's Guide? How are you recovering from the cruel things your mother said?

[Turkish]

That sounds like a hurtful experience, Turkish.

Where do you think your memories and feelings about it fits in the Survivor's Guide? How are you recovering from the cruel things your mother said?

You know, I read through the SG. I forgave my mom for my childhood when I was 26, then moved out of state for 3 years (running, in a sense, though it turned out to be a brilliant career move, so it wasn't like I wasn't also doing something good). My mom and I get along well now, with some distance. She is more emotionally fragile than ever, barely surviving. I usually wind down our phone conversations when she starts talking too much about her chickens or the apocalypse (she is into doomsday prepping, though it is mostly talk).

Two years ago, she was down visiting with my family, playing the Waif by bemoaning the fact that the kids didn't "know her" (my response could have been, "get rid of those animals, and then maybe you could stay for more than two days because you have to go back and feed them". I mentioned something about hating the peanut butter and mayo sandwiches she used to feed me. She started crying, "I did the best I could!" Complained to my Ex about me, threatened to go home. I was standing right there, but she talked like I wasn't. I sighed, talked her into staying. I was more cognizant of my words. I can be a little sarcastic with inappropriate humor (to some people, others think I'm funny, including my T--- though he did comment that this was a defense mechanism when talking about hard things).

So having "gotten past" a lot of it, I still feel a little guilty about posting here. My feelings are real, though, even if it isn't a sharp pain. Those things, and many more, happened, and I need to talk about them. It may be even more important given my mom's revelation three weeks ago that her T pretty much diagnosed her with BPD (without giving an official dX) 20 years ago. It all relates to why I am (was?) attracted to waifs, and why I endured with my uBPDx despite so many   starting on our first date. It's a complex mosaic whose pieces fit together. So I am here trying to make sense of everything.

It's funny, but I feel like I don't want to talk to her now since she revealed her borderline dX (no pun intended). I had one conversation with her since then, and I was talking about my Ex, and she said, "that's like me, right?" I feel WoE talking about that stuff now, even though now it's more out in the open. I don't know if I feel bad like I might trigger her, or if I am still trying to process it myself and don't want to talk about it.

[Jema]

"The Turn" sounds to me like just one type of my uBPDm's "context switches"--as I think of them.

She will nearly instantaneously switch from one behavior mode/persona to another. In  a family gathering type setting, one minute she will be in "queen" mode (the most "tolerable" of her personas), and suddenly the "hermit" will kick in and she will retreat down to the basement to watch TV by herself and sulk. The rest of us will all look at each other wondering, "What the heck just happened?"

An actual instance of one of these switches is currently quite a sore point between us. When visiting her in DC X-mas week 2009, at her instance my (Non) wife and I went with her to the Smithsonian. I drove and, against her wishes, I committed the cardinal sin of parking in a paid garage (on our "dime" even).

Things seemed fine until we got down on the mall when she suddenly flew into one of her screaming rages. My poor wife "shut down" and insisted on finding own her way to the airport to go back home. I spent two hours trying to defuse the situation. It's still a big mess as my mother claims (alternately, at various times) that a) my wife started the whole thing by yelling at her, or b) that her knees were bothering her and that we were being insensitive to her pain--neither of us have any memory of her mentioning such until much after the event.

I can deal with it. I have been doing so my whole life. It's my wife that I feel the need to protect. She comes from a very even-tempered family and has had a difficult time adjusting to this way of being. After 25 years we are still married and, with the help of understanding BPD, she has somewhat adjusted. Still she is inclined toward maintaining NC, herself. I understand completely.

[funfunctional]

Turkish... .



Sorry for what you went thru.   Sounds awful.    And to treat a child like that.

Reading your post I really felt for you & your painful experience.

Sincerely!    FunF

[Turkish]

Turkish... .



Sorry for what you went thru.   Sounds awful.    And to treat a child like that.

Reading your post I really felt for you & your painful experience.

Sincerely!    FunF

Thanks, FunF.

The weird thing is that I don't think it was that bad. When you wrote that, I feel like my story is melodramatic, even though I am probably underembellishing it. Friends who've known me a long time express similar thoughts or sympathy, and I think, "was it really that bad, or am I just whining? I certainly don't feel like I'm whining; I'm just telling stories, stating facts."

I'm not dissociated from my childhhood. I have a clear memory of events going back to when I was 3, even a little earlier. I even remember how I felt, or didnt feel. For instance, and forgive me if I've told this story on the board, when I was 10, I was awakened at 3am by a bunch of cops in my room and the hallway. They broke into the house to arrest my 17 year old babysitter fir the muder of the guy down the street. My mom was called off her night shift at the hospital to come take care of me. I liked S____, and if he'd been around a few more years, I may have even felt towards him like a brother. He would often accompany us on trips to the mountains to the 25 acres my mom had (which she would move us to less than two years later by losing her house in foreclosure). When they took him, I didn't feel loss. I don't even remember crying (I should ask my mom if I did... .I may have repressed that memory, but I certainly didn't feel it later). He was just one of many who cycled through my life. There would be someone else, then another.

I apologize in advance if I'm mixing PI and Leaving material in here, but I think it's relevant.

I was always polite, respectful and nice. I think I still am. But it was with boundaries, unhealthy ones.; those of an abandoned, often neglected, and abused child. I learned to love with my false self, never fully comitting in order to protect myself from being abandoned and abused... .so it was ironic that with my Ex, I got exactly that. Unlike most Leaving members, I wasn't madly in love with her, though I confess to feeling that way towards a woman a few years previously (it was with my False Self, the Rescuer).

I don't feel empty, and can't even comprehend BPD emptiness... .but there is a hole in there, something missing. I dont want to fill it, necessarily, as that would be unhealthy, so is it enough to recognize it? Is awareness enough, or can it be healed?

My kids love me to death, and I them. People see it, too. I'm not fearful, but rather wary of myself, like, "if I never was loved in a healthy way, how can I show that to my children?" To bring it back to the board theme, our parents just didn't know. I picked something up when I did at risk youth mentoring: "you don't know what you don't know."

I'm trying to find it; both here, and in life.

[P.F.Change]

So having "gotten past" a lot of it, I still feel a little guilty about posting here. My feelings are real, though, even if it isn't a sharp pain. Those things, and many more, happened, and I need to talk about them.

So, maybe Step 4?

It's funny, but I feel like I don't want to talk to her now since she revealed her borderline dX (no pun intended). I had one conversation with her since then, and I was talking about my Ex, and she said, "that's like me, right?" I feel WoE talking about that stuff now, even though now it's more out in the open. I don't know if I feel bad like I might trigger her, or if I am still trying to process it myself and don't want to talk about it.

It sounds like you have a boundary about what you want to discuss with your mother. It's ok (and even healthy) to listen to your feelings about that boundary and take care of it. You can use SET to say, "Mom, I'm really not comfortable discussing this with you." What would that be like?

I don't feel empty, and can't even comprehend BPD emptiness... .but there is a hole in there, something missing. I dont want to fill it, necessarily, as that would be unhealthy, so is it enough to recognize it? Is awareness enough, or can it be healed?

My kids love me to death, and I them. People see it, too. I'm not fearful, but rather wary of myself, like, "if I never was loved in a healthy way, how can I show that to my children?" To bring it back to the board theme, our parents just didn't know. I picked something up when I did at risk youth mentoring: "you don't know what you don't know."

I'm trying to find it; both here, and in life.

I really like that you are being so honest here. I think awareness and acceptance are a first step. I also think healing is possible.   It's really true--you don't know what you don't know. We have to find other ways to learn the skills our parents weren't able to teach us. It's encouraging to see you working towards that.

My first therapist recommended a book to me that I found helpful. It is called Giving the Love that Heals and has suggestions for how to be a good parent when we have our own deep wounds. It might be something to check out.