I feel hopeless about my relationship with my brother.

[Our abuse recovery guide]

So I did it, I pulled the trigger. I guess I just needed to prove to others and myself, that I wasn't the crazy one here. I'm not the one making the situation difficult. As some of you may know, I have lost contact with my brother because of his crazy, uBPD wife. I posted on this board a few days ago to see if it was even a possibility to work things out with a pwBPD. Not surprisingly, the answers were pretty much a resounding no. Letting my heart lead, instead of my brain, I decided to wrote to my brother and at least put the offer out there that I was willing to talk and to move past things. It too,me a few days, a nights of "sleeping on it" and many edits and revisions before I finally sent the letter. I wanted to very carefully, choose my words as to not make them come off as an attack on her. I did however, want to explain why I invited him and not her to my mothers party. I kept it short yet concise. I explained to him that I didn't want to make my mother uncomfortable (she had texted my mother some hurtful things in the weeks prior) but also explained that it would be uncomfortable for me being that she is the reason my brother and I haven't spoken in 9 months.

The rest of the letter was basically me asking him how we could solve the issues between us. I asked what his wife wanted for me to be able to move past our issues. I also explained that I'm willing to put the past behind us and move on so we can mend our relationship. I suggested having a discussion or at least him communicating what the problem is so I could figure out how I can fix it. Put Basically, I felt I owed him an explanation but also wanted to let him know, I'm willing to work things out.

What I got back was a 15 paragraph, long drawn out letter of him telling me how I should learn how to take the "high road" in EVERY different scenario with her. He rehashed just about every little arguement that's taken place in the past 9 months. The irony in this is that mop this ago he told me he wanted to fix our relationship and that we need to stop rehashing everything from the past an then move on. When I did JUST THAT, I was told that too much damage has been done. He puts his wife in this role of being this helpless victim who's being attacked by people for no reason whatsoever. I'm sure he's saying that because that's what she's most likely portraying to him.

Basically he was trying to gas light me and project all of HER issues onto me. Everything he wrote contradicted the sentence before it. I had NEVER in my entire life read such a long drawn out hypocrisy, on paper. he's telling me to take the high road every time she does  something wrong to me. Basically, just like him, I should walk on eggshells for his wife so she feels validated by thinking she's right and not having to own up to her wrong doings.

I can't even believe what I read. I had to respond and put him in HIS place because I will not allow him to gaslight me and make me think I'm the crazy one. I wrote yet another long letter basically shutting down all of his arguments, with facts and reality. Again, trying not to attack his wife but to defend myself. After my reply, he told me to have a nice life. He knew I was right and knew that I saw right through all the bs. My brother can be very manipulative in his own right. If you aren't falling into line and doing exactly what he wants or acting how he thinks you should act, he throws tantrums and stomps his feet and tells you you're being "unfair".

Bottom line is he is gone. She has completely succeeded in brainwashing him into thinking she's the victim. I don't even know who I am talking to anymore. Just about EVERYTHING that was said by my fellow BPDfam posters, in my last post, was exactly how it went down. I still just don't understand how this girl was able to gain such control over him that he is so blind to the real her that he would cut down his own family, who has ALWAYS been there for him and supported him. I'm starting to feel like, and I know this sounds crazy, but her BPD is contagious and he caught it! That or she's starting to rub off on him. It's apparent my brother suffers with codependency issues.

That is it now. I said my piece. I know it's not me and now I can be at peace with the fact that he will not be a part of my life for now, or possibly forever. I have never in my life, been so hurt by anyone. I just have to accept it and until he breaks out of the spell she has him under, I won't see him. She has no interest in fixing things and I believe he's known that now for a very long time. He keeps telling everyone "it's going to take time [to heal]" because he's trying to buy time in hopes that he can someday convince her to let go of all of this.

Has anyone here felt like they may have been a victim of brainwashing by a BPD person? If so, did you ever question the things they were saying to you to try to gain control? How did you finally break out of the fog? I'm just curious how someone could let this happen to them.

[Youcantfoolme]

So I did it, I pulled the trigger. I guess I just needed to prove to others and myself, that I wasn't the crazy one here. I'm not the one making the situation difficult. As some of you may know, I have lost contact with my brother because of his crazy, uBPD wife. I posted on this board a few days ago to see if it was even a possibility to work things out with a pwBPD. Not surprisingly, the answers were pretty much a resounding no. Letting my heart lead, instead of my brain, I decided to wrote to my brother and at least put the offer out there that I was willing to talk and to move past things. It too,me a few days, a nights of "sleeping on it" and many edits and revisions before I finally sent the letter. I wanted to very carefully, choose my words as to not make them come off as an attack on her. I did however, want to explain why I invited him and not her to my mothers party. I kept it short yet concise. I explained to him that I didn't want to make my mother uncomfortable (she had texted my mother some hurtful things in the weeks prior) but also explained that it would be uncomfortable for me being that she is the reason my brother and I haven't spoken in 9 months.

The rest of the letter was basically me asking him how we could solve the issues between us. I asked what his wife wanted for me to be able to move past our issues. I also explained that I'm willing to put the past behind us and move on so we can mend our relationship. I suggested having a discussion or at least him communicating what the problem is so I could figure out how I can fix it. Put Basically, I felt I owed him an explanation but also wanted to let him know, I'm willing to work things out.

What I got back was a 15 paragraph, long drawn out letter of him telling me how I should learn how to take the "high road" in EVERY different scenario with her. He rehashed just about every little arguement that's taken place in the past 9 months. The irony in this is that mop this ago he told me he wanted to fix our relationship and that we need to stop rehashing everything from the past an then move on. When I did JUST THAT, I was told that too much damage has been done. He puts his wife in this role of being this helpless victim who's being attacked by people for no reason whatsoever. I'm sure he's saying that because that's what she's most likely portraying to him.

Basically he was trying to gas light me and project all of HER issues onto me. Everything he wrote contradicted the sentence before it. I had NEVER in my entire life read such a long drawn out hypocrisy, on paper. he's telling me to take the high road every time she does  something wrong to me. Basically, just like him, I should walk on eggshells for his wife so she feels validated by thinking she's right and not having to own up to her wrong doings.

I can't even believe what I read. I had to respond and put him in HIS place because I will not allow him to gaslight me and make me think I'm the crazy one. I wrote yet another long letter basically shutting down all of his arguments, with facts and reality. Again, trying not to attack his wife but to defend myself. After my reply, he told me to have a nice life. He knew I was right and knew that I saw right through all the bs. My brother can be very manipulative in his own right. If you aren't falling into line and doing exactly what he wants or acting how he thinks you should act, he throws tantrums and stomps his feet and tells you you're being "unfair".

Bottom line is he is gone. She has completely succeeded in brainwashing him into thinking she's the victim. I don't even know who I am talking to anymore. Just about EVERYTHING that was said by my fellow BPDfam posters, in my last post, was exactly how it went down. I still just don't understand how this girl was able to gain such control over him that he is so blind to the real her that he would cut down his own family, who has ALWAYS been there for him and supported him. I'm starting to feel like, and I know this sounds crazy, but her BPD is contagious and he caught it! That or she's starting to rub off on him. It's apparent my brother suffers with codependency issues.

That is it now. I said my piece. I know it's not me and now I can be at peace with the fact that he will not be a part of my life for now, or possibly forever. I have never in my life, been so hurt by anyone. I just have to accept it and until he breaks out of the spell she has him under, I won't see him. She has no interest in fixing things and I believe he's known that now for a very long time. He keeps telling everyone "it's going to take time [to heal]" because he's trying to buy time in hopes that he can someday convince her to let go of all of this.

Has anyone here felt like they may have been a victim of brainwashing by a BPD person? If so, did you ever question the things they were saying to you to try to gain control? How did you finally break out of the fog? I'm just curious how someone could let this happen to them.

[Pogo14]

I find this to be very difficult to explain I don't really fully understand myself, it happens by degrees,  very slowly you give ground let them push at the boundaries and after a time you don't even recognize the spineless person you have become.

For me it happened after my wife gave birth, to that time I had very clear boundaries and a strong sense of self, afterwards however somehow one small concession at a time I gave myself away or lost myself, I've only recently woken up to just how much I let her manipulate me I'm amazed and shocked looking back on the abuse I tolerated, I became that which I pity in others.

It was only the realization of just how much my wife and I were negatively affecting our children that woke me up enough to get help, through therapy I gradually was shown how much I had changed, unfortunately getting help only played into my wife's assertions that I'm the crazy one it's all my fault.

All I can advise is to hope that one day your brother wakes up and be there for him when it happens, like my siblings were there for me, 

[Wrecked]

Youcant, I am so sorry for what you are going through because I know exactly how it feels. I rarely post but I have been following all of your posts because I could have written your story myself, (gaslighting, contradictions, projection, told to have a nice life, etc.) only I am the mother of a brainwashed son.

I feel exactly as you do; I have mourned the loss of my son as if he died.  I feel that the BPD is contagious (maybe fleas) and he has become someone I don't recognize, very angry, aggressive, manipulative and emotionally abusive, basically a replica of his girlfriend; totally opposite to who he was. 

Please know that you are not crazy. You are a wonderful sister and he is lucky to have someone that continues to care about his well-being despite the events that have taken place.  Maybe a time out from all the crazy and doing something to spoil yourself is in order.

I wish my post could be more comforting, but unfortunately I am at a loss myself.  The only comfort I can offer is knowing you are not alone.

[Youcantfoolme]

It was only the realization of just how much my wife and I were negatively affecting our children that woke me up enough to get help, through therapy I gradually was shown how much I had changed, unfortunately getting help only played into my wife's assertions that I'm the crazy one it's all my fault.

My brother is in therapy because of her! She has driven him to think he is the one with the problems! The funny part is, she drove him to therapy, then got angry with him because he picked a female therapist and wouldn't give her the EXACT details of what he and the therapist discussed! I mean this set her off into a certified mental breakdown where she was threatening to destroy his personal effects. I was lucky enough to witness this one with my own ears and eyes! She threatened him, he went back home and then the Charming began!

They are doing in vitro now and I fear very much for any potential babies that may be brought into their mess of a relationship. Being a mother myself, I know that babies do not make relationships any easier. You must work even harder. I feel terrible for children who are born into these relationships where they're used as leverage against the nonBPD.

WRECKED: your words did comfort me. In a weird way, knowing a stranger, somewhere out there can relate is comforting in itself. I'm sorry you're also dealing with a person like this. Sometimes people don't realiZe what effect it has on the people outside of the relationship. It's had a profound effect on me. Not only because it hurts that I've lost my brother but also because I see what it is doing to my mom. It's very frustrating and I feel like I'm dealing with a drug addict only the drug isn't what's responsible for altering his mind and actions, a woman with BPD is!

[Louise7777]

Youcantfoolme, Im sorry for your situation. When we have an uBPD in our families, we are familiar with the "divide and conquer" and all its consequences (unfortunately!).

I have seen this in my family, being among a couple or among sibling´s relationships. From my experience, its all about control and using people. They are able to put people against each other just to see how far they can go.

Im not sure I agree with your "brainwashing theory", though. I understand your feelings for your brother, but arent you leaving him somehow out of the hook? I mean, he may be a codependant, true, but he may be an uNPD himself or have some traits. I dont want to be rude in any way, but his behaviour towards you or your mom isnt acceptable in any way and I believe there are limits even for brainwashing.

Being NC myself, I can only tell you to move on and accept his choice. Easier said than done, I know! But what they usually ask from us is to submit to a tyrant. No matter how much you explain and justify, they still keep their ways. You´ll end up drained and angry (I have been there). Wish you luck.

[P.F.Change]

Im not sure I agree with your "brainwashing theory", though. I understand your feelings for your brother, but arent you leaving him somehow out of the hook?

I think that's a very good point.

PF, just like any relationship, it takes two to tango. He is 100% responsible for his actions and she is 100% responsible for hers.

If this is true (and I think it is), it is not realistic to talk about your brother as if he is a helpless victim who has no control over his own thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors. Your brother believes what he needs to believe. He says what he wants to say. That is no one else's fault--his own personality and his own issues are behind that. Is it easier for you to blame her than to be angry at him directly?

Where do you see yourself and your brother on this triangle? Our Dysfunctional Relationships with Others How can you move to the center or use The Empowerment Dynamic to re-define your role?

Is there anything in these workshops that is helpful to you?    

COMMUNICATION: How to stop circular arguments

Communication tools (SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN)

Wishing you peace,

PF

[Youcantfoolme]

Im not sure I agree with your "brainwashing theory", though. I understand your feelings for your brother, but arent you leaving him somehow out of the hook?

I 100% agree with this. My brother is not to be without blame. In fact, he keeps saying "if you have a problem with my wife, take it up with her." He doesn't understand why we are expecting him to "fix" the issues. I told him , "brother, I didn't choose for UBPD wife to be in my life, she's in my life because of you. It's your job to bridge the gap between her and us." This woman is a virtual stranger to us. Before they married I had probably only met her a handful of times. It's his job to try to help us get to know her.

Anyway I got a little off topic but yes, I blame him and I blame his fear of rejection and lack of boundaries, 100%. She is the one telling him to say things to us (things we know he wouldn't say on his own) but he's the one carrying it out. He could turn to her and say, "wife, I'm not telling my sister her dress for our wedding is inappropriate and that she has to spend money on a new one. My sister would be hurt by that. I don't want to hurt her." Instead, he's being a pu$$y and instead of dealing with his wife's anger, like man, he's projecting it onto us. He's the middle man who's allowing the "brainwashing" to occur because he's afraid of her consequences. Instead he will hurt us and doesn't seem to care about our feelings because he THINKS we will always love him unconditionally. He's expecting us to walk on eggshells with him.

[Youcantfoolme]

Where do you see yourself and your brother on this triangle? Our Dysfunctional Relationships with Others How can you move to the center or use The Empowerment Dynamic to re-define your role?

This is an interesting question. As for my brother I can oddly, see him in two of the roles. He's very much the victim or at least that's the role he casts himself in when it comes to his wife. They are victims who are just carelessly, trying to go about their lives and everyone is throwing rotten tomatoes at them for no reason whatsoever. At the same time, he could also be the persecutor. Everything is everyone else's fault, he's always pointing the finger and telling people how they should act and how they should handle things. I'm not really sure where I fall. I certainly wouldn't think I'm am enabler. I accept some blame in this. I feel like a victim and at times feel helpless but I can also accept things. I'm not sitting around feeling sorry for myself. I'm not really sure where I fall, I'm trying to be the peacemaker right now and it isn't working! Does that mean I'm the enabler? I'm not sure!

[Youcantfoolme]

I'm sorry to keep posting on my own post here but as I'm reading the links, PF has shared, I keep coming up with more and more thoughts and questions. These communication tools seem great but the only problem is, I'm not dealing with the pwBPD directly. I'm dealing with my brother, who is the one dealing with her and defending her. Basically I'm dealing with her by proxy! How can I utilize these skills through him? I'm also really starting to come to the realization that my brother also has something deeply wrong with him. Possibly so ething that goes a bit deeper than simply being codependent.

[Pogo14]

{My brother is in therapy because of her! She has driven him to think he is the one with the problems! The funny part is, she drove him to therapy, then got angry with him because he picked a female therapist and wouldn't give her the EXACT details of what he and the therapist discussed! I mean this set her off into a certified mental breakdown where she was threatening to destroy his personal effects}

Exactly what happened to me and I'm ashamed to admit that the only reason I stuck with it was for my children, if it had just been me I don't know if I would ever have broken free,  your brother has a responsibility to himself to do something about his situation, however he may not even truly clearly see the situation he is in and how bleak the future can be, as for bringing children into this abusive relationship,  the poor little darlings deserve so much better. 

[Pogo14]

I ended up going to therapy during my lunch break at work and not letting my wife know, felt very deceitful and I didn't like it but I just couldn't face the weekly interrogation and contempt.

[Louise7777]

Im glad you didnt get offended with my comment! Its such a delicate issue!

I cant really help you on how to use the tools, when I read about them my r/s with some family members was way beyond that... .I hope others jump in and help you.

All I can say, in a general way, is to establish boundaries with your brother. When he demands certain behaviours from you, you can say "thats not acceptable". Avoid JADEing (justifying, arguing, defending and explaining) with him. Not dealing with her directly may be a blessing in disguise... .

[Kwamina]

Hi Youcantfoolme

I have read a lot of your posts and I'm really sorry you are having these problems with your brother. I am happy though that you agree with the point Louise7777 has made about not letting your brother get of the hook too easily. In that quote of yours from another thread P.F. Change referred to, you already perfectly summed it up yourself: He is 100% responsible for his actions and she is 100% responsible for hers.

These communication tools seem great but the only problem is, I'm not dealing with the pwBPD directly. I'm dealing with my brother, who is the one dealing with her and defending her. Basically I'm dealing with her by proxy! How can I utilize these skills through him?

These communication techniques are actually applicable to all types of people not only people with BPD. Based on your brother's behavior and this harsh response letter by him, I'd definitely say you could also use at least some of these techniques with him.

I'm also really starting to come to the realization that my brother also has something deeply wrong with him. Possibly so ething that goes a bit deeper than simply being codependent.

This can be a very though realization indeed. I see in your posts that you have conflicting feelings about him, it's clear that you love him bit it's also very clear that his behavior is hurting and frustrating you and not only his wife's behavior. Did you ever before suspect that there might be something more going on with your brother?

[Youcantfoolme]

Im glad you didnt get offended with my comment! Its such a delicate issue!

Louise, I'm not offended because I really think you were onto something! I definitely think my brother has issues of his own! I'm not sure if NPD is it but there's definitely something going on there. He seems to think his way of doing things, is always the right way. He's very selfish and doesn't think of others feelings but expects others to understand his. I would say he's always been a bit emotionally immature. He's also very manipulative. Since he was a kid, if he didn't get what he wanted, he would threaten and throw tantrums to get what he wanted. One thing that's always struck me odd about him too is that he never seemed to have his ow identity. He would always define himself through whatever he was into at the time. He went through, what me and my family refer to as phases. When he was going through one of these phases, whether it was his grateful dead hippy phase, his Hunter S Thompson phase, his swingers/big Lebowski phase, EVERYTHING followed suit. He'd change the way he dressed and combed his hair, he'd start reading books about whatever it was that he was Into, his whole life became that one thing and he'd have to learn EVERYTHING there was to know about that one thing. Where most people would just "like" these things, he "lived" them! He'd obsess and identify himself through them. My brother is VERY intelligent, in a  "book smarts" way but COMPLETELY lacks in the common sense department or street smarts. I don't know if any of this equals up to any kind of disorder or mental issues but it's obvious there's something there, that's not right with him.

[Youcantfoolme]

I probably also should mention that we grew up in a home with an alcoholic father and a very passive mother who I'd have to say was in denial most of the time about my fathers alcoholism and depression. My dad and brother had pretty much no relationship. There was no father/son bonding. My dad always resented him, called him lazy and ungrateful. He was sort if right in a way. On my brothers end, he didn't seem to care about getting my dad's approval. He never really tried to hard to prove him wrong. There were many violent fights between them when my brother was a teen. On the other hand, I think my mom used to try to make up for it, tried to be both parents. She held my brother on a pedestal for his academic achievements. I used always refer to him as "the golden child". She often spoiled him and gave into him. Here he had one parent, who didn't give a flying Crap About him, put him down and another parent who praised him and rewarded him. I had very different relationships with my parents. My dad definitely was a lot easier on me and my mom was able to say no to me. I didn't push though. If she said no, I just gave up!

[funfunctional]

Hi,

Sorry you are feeling so much pain over losing the connection with your brother.  I see this time and time again.  A parent passes.   The kids scatter.   Often, the parent was the "glue" that kept the family together.   I feel like you are at a time when you really need your brother. You miss him.  He was an emotional support for you.  This hurts deep and I get that.  I lost my brother 4 years ago due to family squabbling and words said to him that I had no part of but my BPD sister created the divide. Now things are ending with my BPD sister as we are not talking right now.   I can't talk to her anymore - too painful.

But enough of my stuff as this post is about you but I was tryign to show you I empathize from direct experience in feeling sad about connections with siblings and losing them.

The letter. OH THE LETTER!  OY!   I did this years ago with my brother and it was a BOMB.   Totally didn't work.   It gives them something to show other people and say "see... .I told you... .blah blah blah... .twist your words around".    I am sure he showed that to her.     I don't think the letter was the end of anything... .as his not inviting you to the wedding was pretty nasty.    I don't know if anything will change this situation except TIME.    The letter was really for you to vent/clear and the only way that can be done is face to face.    No texting... .no facebook... .no letters.    I am saying this cause I have been there and done this.    Face to face is the ONLY resolve to tough emotional stuff.

I think you are going to have to kick back right now and again - do nothing.    The only suggestion I have is to maybe send a card to him and say "I did the letter becuz I miss you and having you in my life and please contact me when you want to meet for coffee and talk".    Love... .XXXXXXX

Now you have shared your love and left a door open.

?   Just some thoughts

[Louise7777]

Hi again, Youcantfoolme!

Thank you for the additional info. I guessed NPD cause its the "male version" of a BPD somehow (in my opinion) and because there´s a book called "NPD husband, BPD wife" or something like that... .It seems they are a "great" match, in a dysfunctional way, of course. One feeds the other.

Knowming more about the backgroeund, Id say that some NPDs are a result of spoiling from a parent. Im speaking in very general terms here, from some articles I read online. NPDs can be one parent´s favourite so they get this sense of entitlement that they carry through their whole lives.

I also read there are many subtypes of NPDs, and usually they appear superior but have no self-steem, they dont really know who they are (like BPDs), so they have to mirror others. Thats what seems to be your brothers phases to me.

Thats just some small info in case you want to dig on that. For me it was part of my healing process, giving an exact name and then forgetting about it, cause whatever it is, its just unacceptable behaviour.

Like you, I had an exchange of emails with an uNPD/ schozotypal "friend" and it went nowhere. But I got it out of my system. I had already decided to go NC with her, and at some point she just didnt respond to my last email (she claimed she had "always helped" me", when I asked how and when she didnt reply). Its like hitting you head into a wall, they just have a different selfish perspective but I made my point clear instead of letting it go.

I hope you can keep your distance at least for now, most of the times they are just too much.

[Youcantfoolme]

Fun function, yes I definitely do miss my relationship with my brother. He wasn't so much emotional support or support of any kind but just always there when you needed a good laugh. That's part of him has dissappeared too. Before their wedding, while him and I still had contact, he just didn't seem himself. Whenever she was around, it was as if someone had sucked the personality right out of him. It always came off to me, that he wasn't fully comfortable in front of her. In retrospect, its probably because he was ridiculed by her for the way he acted and was probably trying to stay in-line with her. That in itself was heart breaking. My brother was always loud and funny and he just always seemed so serious with her. I wonder at times if this has changed. I do hope so.

My original intent with my letter was to reach out to him for a face to face. It's not that I  afraid of direct confrontation, I just feel I can think more clearly and get out everything I have to say when I write. Unfortunately, instead of setting up a time and place for a discussion, I was told how to take the high road and what I've done wrong.


Hi again, Youcantfoolme!

Thank Hi again, Youcantfoolme!

Thank you for the additional info. I guessed NPD cause its the "male version" of a BPD somehow (in my opinion) and because there´s a book called "NPD husband, BPD wife" or something like that... .It seems they are a "great" match, in a dysfunctional way, of course. One feeds the other.

Knowming more about the backgroeund, Id say that some NPDs are a result of spoiling from a parent. Im speaking in very general terms here, from some articles I read online. NPDs can be one parent´s favourite so they get this sense of entitlement that they carry through their whole lives.

I also read there are many subtypes of NPDs, and usually they appear superior but have no self-steem, they dont really know who they are (like BPDs), so they have to mirror others. Thats what seems to be your brothers phases to me.

Thats just some small info in case you want to dig on that. For me it was part of my healing process, giving an exact name and then forgetting about it, cause whatever it is, its just unacceptable behaviour.

Like you, I had an exchange of emails with an uNPD/ schozotypal "friend" and it went nowhere. But I got it out of my system. I had already decided to go NC with her, and at some point she just didnt respond to my last email (she claimed she had "always helped" me", when I asked how and when she didnt reply). Its like hitting you head into a wall, they just have a different selfish perspective but I made my point clear instead of letting it go.

I hope you can keep your distance at least for now, most of the times they are just too much.

It's interesting you say the word entitled, that's exactly how I described my brother the other day. I had never really thought of Him as a narc but maybe he is. I'm definitely going to look further into that.

I totally agree that the emails basically got me nowhere but to be completely honest, I hope his wife DID see them! I referenced the time he came over my house without her knowing, in the email. I want her to know that HE does want me to be part of his life since he's too afraid to tell her. In his letter he was totally trying to gaslight me, basically by telling me I was crazy for thinking it would ever be possible that he and I could have ANY type of relationship, that didn't include his wife, even though, months earlier that was EXACTLY what he suggested we have! It makes me so angry because this is exactly what she wants! She wants him to show how loyal he is to her. It kills me to know that her black heart is probably doing a victory dance inside of her chest! By me fighting with him, over her, I'm letting her get her way. If I didn't fight however, she would still be gleeming because the only other option I'd have, would be to kiss the ground she walks on. There's no in between with her, it's either you love and adore and worship her (like the small "fan club" of followers she has on facebook) or hate her and deal with her silent treatments and wrath. Basically I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't!

[P.F.Change]

Thank you for the additional info. I guessed NPD cause its the "male version" of a BPD somehow (in my opinion) and because there´s a book called "NPD husband, BPD wife" or something like that... .It seems they are a "great" match, in a dysfunctional way, of course. One feeds the other.

Louise7777 may be thinking of The Narcissistic/Borderline Couple. This kind of couple is also described as Queen and King in Lawson's book Understanding the Borderline Mother. Even though it is a common enough pairing to be written about in books, it's not exactly accurate to say NPD is the male version of BPD. Each disorder can affect either gender.

Fun function, yes I definitely do miss my relationship with my brother. He wasn't so much emotional support or support of any kind but just always there when you needed a good laugh.

It sounds like you are mourning good times with your brother. That's understandable. Everyone has positive and negative qualities, and it sounds like your brother's laughter is a positive quality that you miss. Do you have any needs that are no longer being met through that relationship that you might be able to take care of in other ways?

I hope his wife DID see them! I referenced the time he came over my house without her knowing, in the email. I want her to know that HE does want me to be part of his life since he's too afraid to tell her.

This sounds passive-aggressive and controlling. Besides, to me it sounds like that's not actually what he wants anymore, if he told you to "have a nice life."

By me fighting with him, over her, I'm letting her get her way. If I didn't fight however, she would still be gleeming because the only other option I'd have, would be to kiss the ground she walks on. ... .Basically I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't!

This may not make a lot of sense right now while you are in the midst of it, but I think you are not in a battle with her--or with him over her--you are in a battle with you. The way I see it, it's a battle over whether to accept an uncomfortable reality or cling to a fantasy where you have the brother you want. It's a battle with your own need to feel right and in control. Does what she thinks really matter? Do your brother's choices define who you are? I wonder if this workshop will help at all: Radical Acceptance for family members.

I know this isn't easy, Youcantfoolme. Hang in there, I'm sure you will find a way to come through it. 

[Youcantfoolme]

Pf I appreciate your insight on this and thank you for taking so much time to sort of talk me off the ledge here!

I definitely am mourning my relationship with my brother. No matter who has come and gone through our lives, we always had each other. We always kept in touch whether it was talking on the phone or just sending texts here and there. I feel like my brother knows me on a different level than a lot of friends. There are jokes and conversations I can have with him that I just can't have with other people. He's very smart and I feel my conversations with him are just more intellectual than the conversations I have with others. As far as any needs being met, I can't say that there's a specific need from him. I just miss having him around.

In response to this about his wife seeing my emails,

This sounds passive-aggressive and controlling. Besides, to me it sounds like that's not actually what he wants anymore, if he told you to "have a nice life."

Passive aggressive, yes. controlling, I don't really know how. I don't think that's really what he wants though. I think that's what he thinks, SHE wants.

Call it what you want, my brother is afraid to speak up for himself. He's terrified of this woman. He hides things in fear of her reactions. I've seen him do this with quite a few things. He won't speak up for what he wants. It's something he told me he's, "working on". I feel like she needs to know either way. Whether it is or isn't what he wants anymore. She needs to know that at some point during all of this, he is hurting without his family.

[P.F.Change]

Thanks for having a good attitude about some probably uncomfortable challenges.

I feel like she needs to know either way.

That's the controlling part. It's not up to you to communicate your brother's wants and feelings to his wife. That's his job. Besides, would it make any difference? If she has a personality disorder, not likely. With BPD, feelings=facts. Whatever she is feeling will not be changed by any fact you present to her.

[Youcantfoolme]

I am always open to everyone's positions. I don't feel you could make informed decisions and opinions if you don't look at all ends of the spectrum. That's exactly why I'm here. Trying to understand this disorder That's completely foreign to me (even though I now suspect one of my exes from long ago may have suffered from it). Back then, I was a kid at only 19. Understanding it in an adult setting is hard.

You are right though in the fact that it isn't my job to communicate his wants to his wife. I never looked at it like that. At the same time however, it aggravates me that I feel BPD is a crutch for both of them to walk on. We should just understand her thinking? By doing so, aren't we reinforcing her BPD behavior?

[Louise7777]

Youcantfoolme, I understand your confusion on this.

"At the same time however, it aggravates me that I feel BPD is a crutch for both of them to walk on. We should just understand her thinking? By doing so, aren't we reinforcing her BPD behavior?"

No, we dont have to understand her thinking in the way that we go along with it. We should undertsnad theres "a condition", a "personality disorder" or "a way of life" (as Id rather call it). It means we accept there´s "something there", but its not our fault, we didnt cause it and we cant heal it. We accept the person as she/ he is and deal with them accordingly (sometimes by being NC).

We dont reinforce the BPD behaviour when we are aware of it and establish boundaries for OUR protection. Forget abt the "BPD label": they behave towards you in a disrespectful/ selfish way and you wont tolerate that. Actions have consequences, if they dont respect you, you will do XYZ. Ex: my uBPD relative rages at me, so I leave the room and keep my distance from then on.

I think you are in the right direction, but its just too much info to absorb so fast. Take your time. Best wishes to you. 

[Pilate]

We should just understand her thinking? By doing so, aren't we reinforcing her BPD behavior?

This is a really good question and something that is incredibly valuable not only for communicating with people who have/might have BPD but people in general.

For people who suffer with BPD, feelings equal facts. So, another way to think about your question is that if we understand what the person is thinking, what we are really doing is trying to understand their feelings. If we understand the feelings that drive the thinking and behaviors, it often creates a space to respond with more understanding and less reactivity. Even if we aren't act on the insights about the feelings, sometimes just understanding the person's feelings allows us to let go of all the swirl of emotions and frustrations that come with being in a relationship with someone who has an untreated mental illness.

Another idea that seems connected to your question is about reinforcing behavior. Learning and working to understand the feelings that drive the behavior is different from reinforcing behavior. Have you seen the discussion on "don't validate the invalid? This might help you not only with your relationship with your brother and sister in law but other relationships, too. We can validate feelings much more easily than behaviors or twisted facts. When we validate and understand the feelings of others, the negative behaviors often de-escalate. I use this tool all the time as a parent--identifying and validating feelings underneath the thinking/facts--with my young children. Think how many times a young child comes unglued about something that seems trivial to an adult, but if we understand the feelings that fuel the behavior, we understand better what the child is going through. This is useful for dealing with highly emotional and sensitive pwBPD because pwBPD are emotionally close in age to young children and/or the moodiness of adolescents.

I have an SIL who is not diagnosed but over the 15+ years I have known her, she consistently displays the patterns of behavior and criteria that are consistent with the disorder. Even though she still does things that are upsetting and hurtful--to herself and others, when I can understand what her feelings are that drive her behavior, I am much more successful at interacting with her when I have to and not letting her behaviors trigger all my "I know how to fix it" and "truth police" behaviors. Sure, I still let her get to me and I screw up when trying to communicate with her when she's upset about something, which is why I come her for refreshers on radical acceptance, mindfulness, SET, validating the valid, and other tools because it helps me with these more difficult family relationships, but it also helps me help myself in almost all relationships in my life.

Sorry, cross posted

[livednlearned]

Hi youcantfoolme,

I read your post because I have a uBPD brother and always read the sibling posts here trying to understand my own troubled relationship with uBPD brother. But when I read through your posts, your story reminded me a lot more of my marriage to my N/BPDx husband.

People with BPD suffer from extremely high sensitivity (both to internal and external stimuli), they experience extreme reactions (again, both internally and externally), and they don't return to baseline quickly like nonBPD people do. Being in a relationship with someone who is BPD is psychologically and emotionally all-consuming, and it can feel extremely dangerous to rock the boat. It may not look dangerous from the outside, but inside the relationship, that's how it feels. If my family had written a letter like the one you described, it would have further cemented my isolation because it would invalidate just how treacherous my marriage truly was. Many of us had to practice extreme denial just to be able to tolerate the relationship. Either that, or the relationship was only a hair more extreme than what we endured as kids, and it felt normal. We don't know what healthy families were like, because we didn't experience one growing up. When someone on the outside of the marriage says, "Pick me or her," but then can offer no assurances, and doesn't even seem to understand why that's even an issue, it's not much of an offer, to be honest. Even if the request is just, "You need to tell her... ." or "If you don't do this, I won't xyz... ." -- that just says you underestimate what is happening inside the marriage.

Many of us who married BPD spouses are re-experiencing some kind of earlier trauma that probably molded us as kids. Whether your brother is NPD or BPD or a combination, or just codependent, or whatever -- he is probably, in all likelihood, emotionally stunted in some way. An alcoholic father and a passive mother is what I grew up with too. It can be a very invalidating environment to grow up in when no one has a clue how to deal with difficult or negative feelings.

Emotionally healthy people don't tend to stay involved in BPD marriages. Your brother may feel terrified that he will be rejected or abandoned by his wife. He may have experienced acute invalidation as a kid, and has no idea that he is reliving an emotional script, and the thought of his wife abandoning him may feel the exact same fear he experienced as a child when he realized your parents were emotionally incapable of meeting his needs. He might think he can't survive on his own.

Sorry to be so long-winded about this. I can tell that underneath your anger at your brother, you're deeply hurt and want a relationship with him. I don't think you can have the relationship with him that you once had, unfortunately. Feeling sad instead of angry will help you take an important step forward toward acceptance -- anger is usually a secondary emotion that we use to protect ourselves from feeling a deeper hurt.

But accepting that your relationship has changed does not mean you cannot have a relationship with him. Unfortunately, to move forward, a lot of the work is going to fall on your shoulders, and that is a difficult pill to swallow when you feel "right" about who is to blame for the problem and what other people need to do to fix it.

It sounds like maybe the letter you wrote gave him some ultimatums. If you tell him he needs to choose between his wife and you, you will lose every time. If you tell him you miss the relationship you had, and understand that he is in a tough position, but you love him, and will be there for him any time he needs you, it gives him a rope that he may desperately need. One day, you may feel a tug.

I cannot tell you how incredibly and profoundly difficult these marriages are, especially if you have not mapped your dynamic back to your own childhood dysfunctions. Not just because of the BPD spouse, but because of our own despair that we are now adults who are willingly subjecting ourselves to abuse. The shame alone can eat you alive.

What your brother needs is someone there in the wings who doesn't make him choose. He needs a healthy sister who he feels he can turn to for a hand up when he can no longer tolerate the boiling pot of water he's in. When he feels that there are enough loving and strong arms around him, only then will he find the strength to willingly leave the marriage. That doesn't mean you don't set boundaries -- those are critical. But there are a lot of controlled ways to interact with pwBPD. Toward the end of my marriage, my mom recognized that under no circumstances could she and my dad stay in our home and vice versa. Too much opportunity for fireworks. They planned all of their visits during times when N/BPDx was away at a conference, or during the work week. They called me during the day instead of at night, they wrote a lot of very careful emails, knowing that N/BPDx read all of them. They learned that N/BPDx needed to be praised often. So many more smaller details that helped my parents stay involved in my life. When I was ready to leave, I leaned on them hard. Thank god my mom didn't make me choose when N/BPDx started to target her and make her life miserable.

It probably doesn't seem like it right now, but BPD relationships can be life-changing for anyone who comes into contact with them. It's an emotional dysregulation disorder. If they are disordered, then what does it mean to be healthy or not disordered? That line of questioning is the best thing to ever happen to me, and it can happen to you too. All of the communication tools that work on this site will work with your brother. All of the techniques and support about interacting with BPD people will work with anyone who has emotions. The techniques will probably work better and faster with so-called "normal" people -- try them on difficult coworkers, or strangers, or friends. Then build up to your brother. Then try them on the SIL.

There are no promises that you will ever get your brother back, unfortunately. And who knows, maybe he has PD traits. At some point, it won't matter if he is this or that, or chooses her or you. It will be about healing your own grief.

I wish you peace. This mental disorder is a bear.



LnL

[Youcantfoolme]

I just have to say that there are some truly remarkable, insightful and helpful people on this board. You guys really don't know how much you've helped me through this negative situation in my life. Just wanted to get that out of the way real quick!

Anyway here's my dilemma. A) I'm not dealing directly with the BPD individual. It's hard to use those communication skills via another person. B) I never had any type of relationship with her before all the drama started. I think I'd have more drive and motivation to understand her if there was some type of emotional connection there. My brother seems to repeatedly date the same type of over sensitive, demanding and emotionally driven type of woman. His ex and I had a few incidences. I admit my personality can be a bit abrasive and I'm very candid. I struggle with my own issues. I have ADHD. I often would speak without thinking and at times is say things that people who know me well, know I'm joking but others may take the wrong way. Unfortunately her uber sensitivity and my verbal diareahha clashed at times. However, if I hurt her or offended her, I felt the need to apologize. Even at times when I didn't feel I was wrong. That was because I cared about her as a person. I valued the relationship we had. With his new wife, I don't care because there was nothing there to care about. We never bonded.

Also, I can't say with 100% certainy that she is diagnosed BPD. Many, many of her behaviors match up with what I read. I really just don't know about her or the dynamic of their relationship. Unfortunately most of what I do know is not very positive!

Many of us had to practice extreme denial just to be able to tolerate the relationship. Either that, or the relationship was only a hair more extreme than what we endured as kids, and it felt normal. We don't know what healthy families were like, because we didn't experience one growing up. When someone on the outside of the marriage says, "Pick me or her," but then can offer no assurances, and doesn't even seem to understand why that's even an issue, it's not much of an offer, to be honest. Even if the request is just, "You need to tell her... ." or "If you don't do this, I won't xyz... ." -- that just says you underestimate what is happening inside the marriage

.

LiveandLearn, no need to apologize for the long winded response. I actually prefer the detail like you have given to me! There are many things in which you said. I'm sorry if I don't quote them all, it's hard to copy and paste via iphone but I felt the above was very important. I think  denial is 100% what he is in right now. I've been there myself. You cling to the ideology that was the relationship, most likely when you first started dating and everything was sunshine and rainbows, in hopes that one day, that "amazing person" you fell in love with, will return. I tried to write my letter in a way where I wasn't giving him any type of ultimatum. Trust me, I treaded very lightly over that river! In fact, I tried to approach it by saying we all must try to work it out. If that wasn't possible I was hoping we could get to a point where she'd at least be ok with him and I having a relationship until she was able to work out whatever issues she was having. I pretty much tried every angle in the past 9 months. None are what she wants. My brother has even asked me to "fake apologize" to her! She however has stated many, many times that the damage has been done, which makes me feel that even if I did hypothetically, apologize, it wouldn't change a thing. It would temporarily feed her ego and give her a sense of power over me. I still think she will have me painted black.

In my eyes, SHE is the one giving him the choice of me and my mom over her. She simply just won't allow both! This is why our relationship seems hopeless and at the point where NC is the ONLY choice right now. I have my own principles and morals that I must stand up for. I cannot fake it with people. It's just not who I am. I totally understand validating ones feelings (as you'd do with a child like Pilate had mentioned) but I honestly don't know her feelings therefore I can't validate them. I have asked my brother many times to explain to me, exactly what her issue is with me and he evades the question every time it's asked. I can't validate nothing! It's very hard to communicate and this is all terribly confusing to me.

I just want to say thanks again for all of you who've taken time out to help me understand this terribly confusing disorder!

[P.F.Change]

The communication tools here are helpful when interacting with someone with BPD. But, as others have pointed out already, they are not "BPD-only" tools. They can help in all kinds of relationships. We've recommended them to you so you have a chance to improve the communications you may have with your brother in the future. You can certainly use them when you talk with him. Or when you talk with your neighbor. Or when you talk with your hairdresser.  Wherever. The more you practice, the more natural it becomes.

[Youcantfoolme]

Thank you PF. You're right. I never really thought of them like that. At this point however I think letting the dust settle and taking a step back is my best option. I think I'm too emotional over this. I've had anger that's been building up for quite some time now and I don't want it to make things worse. She is by FAR one of the most difficult and complicated people I've ever come across. I'm hoping that my brother is still seeing a therapist and working on things and maybe one day he will open his eyes. This is his reality that he needs to figure out. His wife is his issue, his choice and his problem.

[Angi]

Hi Youcantfoolme, what came into my mind reading your story is:  You are focused on NOT LOSING your brother: Do you think there is any chance of WINNING a sister instead? I could imagine that your sister-in-law is feeling somehow left outside, closed outside, rejected, perhaps noticing she isn´t capable of loving your brother enough, or not continuously. She is probably afraid of losing him. You mentioned you hardly know your sister-in-law. What I was thinking, is that it might help to try and contact HER instead of your brother and try to get to know her a little. It could be worth a try to make friends with her, to make her feel as important as your brother is and to try to gain her trust, to talk about yourself, your childhood, like you did here. Let the waves calm down a little first. It might take some time. But at least it is a chance – you can´t lose, just win. I know it might seem to you as “faking an apology” or “giving in”. What I am trying to say is: If you manage to change your attitude, it might help her to change hers. If that should work out it would really help your brother – he won´t mind the “girls sticking together”.

Unless of course you believe her to be so absolutely disgusting, that you would feel like trying to jump over your own shadow.

[Youcantfoolme]

Anji,

Hi Youcantfoolme, what came into my mind reading your story is:  You are focused on NOT LOSING your brother: Do you think there is any chance of WINNING a sister instead? I could imagine that your sister-in-law is feeling somehow left outside, closed outside, rejected, perhaps noticing she isn´t capable of loving your brother enough, or not continuously. She is probably afraid of losing him. You mentioned you hardly know your sister-in-law. What I was thinking, is that it might help to try and contact HER instead of your brother and try to get to know her a little. It could be worth a try to make friends with her, to make her feel as important as your brother is and to try to gain her trust, to talk about yourself, your childhood, like you did here. Let the waves calm down a little first. It might take some time. But at least it is a chance – you can´t lose, just win. I know it might seem to you as “faking an apology” or “giving in”. What I am trying to say is: If you manage to change your attitude, it might help her to change hers. If that should work out it would really help your brother – he won´t mind the “girls sticking together”.

Unless of course you believe her to be so absolutely disgusting, that you would feel like trying to jump over your own shadow.

I really wish this was the road I'd like to take. With her however, I feel it's almost an impossible road. She's very hard to bond and connect with. We have VERY different personalities and interests. In the past, I tried to converse with her but conversations with her are very surface level, superficial and one sided. She's what us Italians call, a Braggadocio. The second time I met her, she came to my home. That was when I realized there was something "off" about her personality. My home is very eclectic and sort of eccentric as well. I have some very different decor. Most people who come into my home, comment about the things they see around. She didn't even seem slightly interested. Instead she talked about herself for the entire night! She's a big time name dropper and that's what she did all night. She told us how many expensive dresses she owned, how many designer bags, her high end cars, her boat, her motorcycle, the home she and her exhusband lived in, over looking the ocean, etc, etc. everything had a price tag and everyone needed to know. She also told us about all of her hobbies like scuba diving, kick boxing, her elite gym memberships, sky diving and just about every other thing you could think of along those lines. She also had to tell us about her many yearly vacations to exotic places. It was a bit overwhelming and after a while, just started sounding like a load of BS. She was trying way too hard to impress us. Every time my husband or I, were able to get a word in, she took it as a chance to one up her. She also talked about her job. She works in sales and ironically enough, that's how I felt that night as she spoke. Like it was one huge sales pitch. I know we all try to do that, to a degree, when we meet a mates family but this was just way too over the top. She was already offering up her 11 year old daughter and even herself to babysit my 6 month old son and telling us we could come by and swim in her heated pool, even if she wasn't home! When people get that comfortable, that quick, it scares me.

I didn't really learn much about her that night except for that she has expensive taste and an extrodinary memory for how much everything costs! It was all fluff, I didn't learn anything valuable about her. I think maybe she was somehow able to read that, I wasn't very impressed by all the bragging. From then on, she kept it very short with me. Almost all of my other family members who've spoken with her, have all said the very same things about her. That she's very condescending when he speaks, that she talks "at you" instead of "to you", that she brags a lot, and that she talks extremely fast and doesn't make any eye contact when she's speaking. They all also said, that it was very hard for them to get a word in edgewise.

I still tried after that but she's the kind of person who doesn't sit still long enough to have a real conversation. She's all over the place. One time, after I had texted my brother some info I got about his ex, who owed him thousands of dollars (thousands in which his new wife, was pushing him to collect) she got all mad at me for texting him! From that day on, anything I did, seemed to be a problem. When I complimented the engagement ring, and asked my brother where he got it made, I was being "too nosy" and "trying to figure out how much he paid for it". When I said congrats about their engagement to my brother, over the phone, while on speaker phone, I didn't say congratulations to her personally! Then finally the dress I picked for the wedding, that I was attending as a guest and not part of their bridal party, was a problem for her. It seemed she was trying everything she could, to NOT build a bond with me.

After 9 months of this crap, no, I'm not looking to gain a sister. Especially one who's tried just about everything she can, to push me away! I'm just giving up. I'm hoping one day it may change but as if now it is what it is!