The possibility of change

[Depression = 72% of members]

I think many of us have struggled with the thought that our exes would somehow figure it out after us, that they with the next man/woman they would get all of their relationship chaos in order and live happily ever after.  I had gotten over this feeling, looking with clear eyes at my exes history.  Unfortunately, our last (and hopefully LAST) conversation threw me.  In this she implied that her romantic relationships "had" been very "f****d up" in the past, but now that she had undergone a divorce, she was soul searching and realized her mistakes and decided that she could be better in her relationships in the future. 

Two things trouble me:

1) Now I'm thinking "oh, well, I suppose divorces can be transformative events.  Maybe she really will figure it out this time, with someone other than me."

2) I'm troubled by the fact that I'm rooting against this.  I feel awful that I WANT this human being to continue her unhealthy relationship ways, that the idea of her "figuring it out" upsets me so much. 

I wonder if anyone can relate to this.  Needed to get it down on the page. 

[BacknthSaddle]

I think many of us have struggled with the thought that our exes would somehow figure it out after us, that they with the next man/woman they would get all of their relationship chaos in order and live happily ever after.  I had gotten over this feeling, looking with clear eyes at my exes history.  Unfortunately, our last (and hopefully LAST) conversation threw me.  In this she implied that her romantic relationships "had" been very "f****d up" in the past, but now that she had undergone a divorce, she was soul searching and realized her mistakes and decided that she could be better in her relationships in the future. 

Two things trouble me:

1) Now I'm thinking "oh, well, I suppose divorces can be transformative events.  Maybe she really will figure it out this time, with someone other than me."

2) I'm troubled by the fact that I'm rooting against this.  I feel awful that I WANT this human being to continue her unhealthy relationship ways, that the idea of her "figuring it out" upsets me so much. 

I wonder if anyone can relate to this.  Needed to get it down on the page. 

[Blimblam]

Back

I for a long time was torturing myself over these thoughts. If I contact her in any way or see a picture or any form of update I am back in that torture.  As bad as we feel they still have that underneath and unless they get into some legit therapy or become a Buddhist monk or something they are not processing it.  If they didn't spend at least a few months with no attachments and experience the abandonment depression then they just repressed it and it lurks under the surface. 

I still fall into that loop of hellish thought now and then.  I think how not fair it would be that if somehow it was my love that made her see the light and she cast all her demons into me. And now she is somehow free and some arrogant ass now gets the product of all my hard work.  It is just torture though to think these thoughts.  I understand though I hope I don't go back there again.

[Emelie Emelie]

I think we can all relate to this.  My exBF realized he had BPD not long before he met me.  I studied the disorder much more than he did.  I think I actually "educated" him to some degree.  When he was trying to rekindle he found local BPD support groups and on-line therapy and was very excited about both options.  Despite his promises he never attended a support group or did any type of therapy.  I think about him meeting someone new, falling in love, and not wanting to screw it up this time.  Actually doing the work for "her".  And that kills me.

[myself]

They wanted to other times, too. She wanted to with me.

The disorder overrules it. Patterns will and do persist.

Isn't it: They're running from, not towards?

[patientandclear]

Two things. One, The Buddha and the Borderline is a great read that will help you appreciate how immense the slope is that anyone with BPD is facing. The author is devoted to recovery, not in denial, wants to change ... .And yet. The impulses and patterns are so deeply rooted. By the end after years of committed work she is just barely able to manage without seeking a relationship. It is clear that her goal of a genuine love where she is truly seen and known and loved for herself, which she would not sabotage, is far out of reach.

Second: my ex like most of yours had some sense that something was wrong. But when it was actually playing out, he could not associate the current bad feelings with the idea that something was wrong with his emotional processing. He was completely committed to the idea that THESE feelings and decisions made sense.

Denial and projection are very powerful protections against "figuring it out" and "getting better." To get better you have to let go of the justifying stories that have narrated every important decision you've ever made. Who among us could let go of that much of our own story of ourselves, our own self-concept? It's an incredibly rare person who is that brave and keeps it up.

[Caramel]

Hi Back 

How you are feeling is perfectly normal. You loved her, you wanted the healing to happen while she was with you. Now you think someone else is going to have what you wanted and that's making you feel anxious,sad, hurt, angry, jealous. Absolutely normal human feelings. What's wrong with that? 

Let me tell you my experience. My ex had noticed that there was something wrong. He was alone for two years before we met. He was determined to work on his issues, not dating, meditating, mindfulness, yoga, spiritual stuff. When he asked me out he said to me that he had been refusing to date coz he did't want to hurt people anymore. Now he thought he was ready.

Guess what? I'm on this board!

Very short after we met, he raged at me over nothing, called me names and then blamed me for bringing the worst out of him.

Mood swings, push/ pulls, projection, blaming, accusations, paranoia, etc still all in place. Not much had changed.

It takes a lot of time and great effort to change the wrong beliefs cemented in one's mind from childhood. Borderline unfortunately is one of the most difficult personality disorders to recover from/ control.

Focus on yourself and I'm saying that to myself too. I'm guessing by the time they heal (hopefully they do), we are over our own issues of why we were interested in them in the first place and we won't probabely be interested anymore.   

[Lolster]

I think we can all relate to this.  My exBF realized he had BPD not long before he met me.  I studied the disorder much more than he did.  I think I actually "educated" him to some degree.  When he was trying to rekindle he found local BPD support groups and on-line therapy and was very excited about both options.  Despite his promises he never attended a support group or did any type of therapy.  I think about him meeting someone new, falling in love, and not wanting to screw it up this time.  Actually doing the work for "her".  And that kills me.

I've always wondered whether a someone with a PD would actually recognise the behaviours in themselves if confronted with the diagnostic criteria.  Did you ever find out how your exBF realised/discovered he had BPD.  Did someone in a prior relationship possibly point it out to him, was he searching the internet to find the source of his emptiness, or was he diagnosed due to a crisis situation?

[BorisAcusio]

In this she implied that her romantic relationships "had" been very "f****d up" in the past, but now that she had undergone a divorce, she was soul searching and realized her mistakes and decided that she could be better in her relationships in the future.  

They have lucrative moments, mostly when in distress and lack of proper narcisstic supply to be fused with. In our last conversation she described herself and dynamics of her relationships as a BPD without even knowing about the disorder. At the same discussion, while clearly seeing these patterns, she openly admitted to nurturing some poor chap, who she referred to as a "lame geek" to her needs. It is their modus operandi.

[Numbers]

Denial and projection are very powerful protections against "figuring it out" and "getting better." To get better you have to let go of the justifying stories that have narrated every important decision you've ever made. Who among us could let go of that much of our own story of ourselves, our own self-concept? It's an incredibly rare person who is that brave and keeps it up.

And yet, in my humble opinion, that is exactly what happened to us on this board. To let go of idealized omnipotent fixer, fueled by self-justification, is crushing and life changing, but at the same time puts us in a place with much less stress. With no option other to keep it up, we are the brave ones.

By analogy, our exes would be cowards, and I've seen this cowardice displayed in other, much less important, areas of mine's life too. This is not to belittle or scold - I recognize now how sad a state of mind that is.

[BacknthSaddle]

Thank you all for your excellent, helpful responses. 

Back

If they didn't spend at least a few months with no attachments and experience the abandonment depression then they just repressed it and it lurks under the surface. 

There is truth in this.  When my ex got divorced she said "I haven't been alone since I was 16.  I'm looking forward to finding out who I am when I'm alone."  Dating two weeks later.  No matter how much "soul searching" she does, it comes to nothing, because she can't stand to be alone.

It is this fact that keeps her out of therapy too I think.  Therapy can be a lonely place, and she once admitted to me being avoidant of it.  At one point when it seemed like she was looking seriously for a therapist, she ended up not finding one because "none of them will call me back" (waifish). 

She told me once of a time she went to marital counselling with her ex.  The therapist suggested to her that perhaps she was unduly harsh in her treatment of him.  She called him a "quack" and never went back. 

When he was trying to rekindle he found local BPD support groups and on-line therapy and was very excited about both options.  Despite his promises he never attended a support group or did any type of therapy.

And I can see my ex was not alone in her attitude toward therapy and self-improvement

Two things. One, The Buddha and the Borderline is a great read that will help you appreciate how immense the slope is that anyone with BPD is facing. The author is devoted to recovery, not in denial, wants to change ... .And yet. The impulses and patterns are so deeply rooted. By the end after years of committed work she is just barely able to manage without seeking a relationship. It is clear that her goal of a genuine love where she is truly seen and known and loved for herself, which she would not sabotage, is far out of reach.

Second: my ex like most of yours had some sense that something was wrong. But when it was actually playing out, he could not associate the current bad feelings with the idea that something was wrong with his emotional processing. He was completely committed to the idea that THESE feelings and decisions made sense.

Denial and projection are very powerful protections against "figuring it out" and "getting better." To get better you have to let go of the justifying stories that have narrated every important decision you've ever made. Who among us could let go of that much of our own story of ourselves, our own self-concept? It's an incredibly rare person who is that brave and keeps it up.

This is extremely helpful patientandclear.  Thank you.  I will be reading that book shortly. 

Hi Back 

How you are feeling is perfectly normal. You loved her, you wanted the healing to happen while she was with you. Now you think someone else is going to have what you wanted and that's making you feel anxious,sad, hurt, angry, jealous. Absolutely normal human feelings. What's wrong with that? 

Let me tell you my experience. My ex had noticed that there was something wrong. He was alone for two years before we met. He was determined to work on his issues, not dating, meditating, mindfulness, yoga, spiritual stuff. When he asked me out he said to me that he had been refusing to date coz he did't want to hurt people anymore. Now he thought he was ready.

Guess what? I'm on this board!

Very short after we met, he raged at me over nothing, called me names and then blamed me for bringing the worst out of him.

Mood swings, push/ pulls, projection, blaming, accusations, paranoia, etc still all in place. Not much had changed.

Again, my ex is not alone .  And you are right Caramel: it is all normal.  I just feel guilt over rooting against her, or anybody. I take the fact that I am rooting against her as a sign that I am not detached.  People I broke up with years ago, I see pictures of them online and happy now and I think: good for them.  Because I don't feel connected to them anymore. I can see them as separate.  I'm not enmeshed with them.  I just need to detach. 

In this she implied that her romantic relationships "had" been very "f****d up" in the past, but now that she had undergone a divorce, she was soul searching and realized her mistakes and decided that she could be better in her relationships in the future. 

They have lucrative moments, mostly when in distress and lack of proper narcisstic supply to be fused with. In our last conversation she described herself and dynamics of her relationships as a BPD without even knowing about the disorder. At the same discussion, while clearly seeing these patterns, she openly admitted to nurturing some poor chap, who she referred to as a "lame geek" to her needs. It is their modus operandi.

Right as always Boris.  I have been reading a lot of Kernberg and Winnicott recently.  Very helpful.  In the past, when she was at her lowest and identified horrible things about herself, I thought, "oh, she's depressed, this isn't really her, I need to make her feel better."  I didn't realize these were the moments when she was actually speaking the truth.

o let go of idealized omnipotent fixer, fueled by self-justification, is crushing and life changing, but at the same time puts us in a place with much less stress.

I agree Numbers and I have been working hard on this.  Not trying to be the omnipotent fixer.  Focusing on the validity of my own needs.  You're right: there is a tremendous relief of stress in this. 

[jhkbuzz]

"... .My ex like most of yours had some sense that something was wrong. But when it was actually playing out, he could not associate the current bad feelings with the idea that something was wrong with his emotional processing. He was completely committed to the idea that THESE feelings and decisions made sense."

So very articulate, and very true... .these three sentences describe why our relationship came to an end.  She could (and did) admit that she came into our relationship "pretty f***ed up"; she could admit that relationships were her "severe weakness"; she could admit that she doesn't think she's every really loved anyone... .and yet, whenever we had to deal with the chaos her behavior caused in our relationship, she was completely unable to see that her emotional processing was the issue - it was always, somehow, my fault. Her feelings (and the conclusions she drew from them) were always completely valid and correct.  And there was absolutely no reasoning with her. It was a nightmare roller coaster ride from hell.

[guy4caligirl]

My ex went to treatment 8 years before we met , she was then married to a great guy , she came out worth than ever from treatment these creature are great at acting , right out of the treatment center she ended up with another insane patient , hold her hostage for a week , and never got better but she survives , 5 years of care nothing worked .

she changed men women like changing shoes till I met her, she is still the same I sometimes call them extended pit stops .

I really DO NOT think they will ever recover their  end is going to be hard like a rock so sad if they just only listen .

[Seriously?]

It is tortuous to think he could change. I would still be trying if I really believed it. It's when I remember all the good times that I think that way. If only... .particularly hard right now because I was doing much better, but with the holidays,  he is on my mind all the time. The good parts of him.