Is the "cure" for BPD/Codependence Sufficient Self Esteem?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I had a really reflective day today as I work my way through SWOE.

Among much other writing i did, I made a list of the things that both my ex and I would have to have done to earn each others respect (only did my side because i can't communicate with her and find out what her standards for respect).

Our issues were very similar and almost every issue that needed to be worked on had something to do with accepting and prioritizing responsibilities that we had taken on or accrued. It seems that the neglect or the poor execution of these responsibilities leads to a build up of stress and shame that sticks around and once there's enough of it, there's avoidance or straight up dissociating.

I'm just thinking if there's a capability to deal with the responsibilities of life then does a seed of wanting to protect that stability begin to take root?

I'm feeling that happening in my life where I'm not only moving into greater stability but also more active in identifying and resisting behaviors that sabotage progress. Are BPD just too messed up for that to happen? What's the tipping factor that gets people BPD or not to start walking up the escalator instead of against it.

I've been looking at a ton of shame and guilt about so many things lately and the more i do the more i can stand to look at and the more i recognize the feeling as that not just a "bad" feeling.

Is it the same journey for "nons" as it is for the disordered but they just have further to go and more to overcome?

I still feel like i'm missing something. I read both that BPD is possible to overcome, but also that it's hopeless and BPD people are F'd for life. Or is it that it's just so hard to overcome because of how much one would have to face that it just rarely happens? Or is it that with treatment (skills acquisition) it fades into an in between place where it's just some traits that are eventually replaced by functional traits and eventually the emotional health watermark just rises overall? Are "nons" just slightly less disordered since it seems the skills we need to bolster are the same as the ones they lack?  What about the authors that wrote about it that had the issues themselves? Do they ever talk about what made them take their recovery transformation seriously or clued them in that they were disordered since most people say that's something that rarely/never happens?

I know that's probably a lot to address but i'd love to get some clarity. Also do you think DBT is a good idea for Codependents?

[Xstaticaddict]

I had a really reflective day today as I work my way through SWOE.

Among much other writing i did, I made a list of the things that both my ex and I would have to have done to earn each others respect (only did my side because i can't communicate with her and find out what her standards for respect).

Our issues were very similar and almost every issue that needed to be worked on had something to do with accepting and prioritizing responsibilities that we had taken on or accrued. It seems that the neglect or the poor execution of these responsibilities leads to a build up of stress and shame that sticks around and once there's enough of it, there's avoidance or straight up dissociating.

I'm just thinking if there's a capability to deal with the responsibilities of life then does a seed of wanting to protect that stability begin to take root?

I'm feeling that happening in my life where I'm not only moving into greater stability but also more active in identifying and resisting behaviors that sabotage progress. Are BPD just too messed up for that to happen? What's the tipping factor that gets people BPD or not to start walking up the escalator instead of against it.

I've been looking at a ton of shame and guilt about so many things lately and the more i do the more i can stand to look at and the more i recognize the feeling as that not just a "bad" feeling.

Is it the same journey for "nons" as it is for the disordered but they just have further to go and more to overcome?

I still feel like i'm missing something. I read both that BPD is possible to overcome, but also that it's hopeless and BPD people are F'd for life. Or is it that it's just so hard to overcome because of how much one would have to face that it just rarely happens? Or is it that with treatment (skills acquisition) it fades into an in between place where it's just some traits that are eventually replaced by functional traits and eventually the emotional health watermark just rises overall? Are "nons" just slightly less disordered since it seems the skills we need to bolster are the same as the ones they lack?  What about the authors that wrote about it that had the issues themselves? Do they ever talk about what made them take their recovery transformation seriously or clued them in that they were disordered since most people say that's something that rarely/never happens?

I know that's probably a lot to address but i'd love to get some clarity. Also do you think DBT is a good idea for Codependents?

[Blimblam]

I think it comes to the same

Thing for BPD and nons which is facing ones fears.  How ever which way you go about doing that.

I suggest learning about the schemas and cptsd or  traumas in general, abusive relationships.

DBT has good coping tools for dealing with overwhelming emotions and can be useful for anyone.

[Xstaticaddict]

Thanks Blim, i haven't even looked at cptsd yet.

[Tausk]

I think it comes to the same

Thing for BPD and nons which is facing ones fears.  How ever which way you go about doing that.

I suggest learning about the schemas and cptsd or  traumas in general, abusive relationships.

DBT has good coping tools for dealing with overwhelming emotions and can be useful for anyone.

Total disagreement, IMHO.  PwBPD hardwiring develop totally differently and "NPD nons".  BPD's are stuck at a three-year old level emotionally.  And at a traumatized three year old at that.  But I can grow emotionally.  I just need to want to grow up and move through the growing pains.

For pwBPD, certain areas of the brain just didn't develop.  Look at all the pwBPD out there. The one's in jail, the homeless ones, the ones with good functional skills... .millions, and only a handful make it to the point of possibly self awareness.  

Yes the fear is overwhelming, but without the capacity for higher end emotional function, the fear, the inability to take responsibility, ... .it's a defect in the manufacturing process.

A product that you buy from Target that is missing critical parts, will never be fully functional by simply coaching or hoping.  And there's not way to rebuild it.  :)BT, just helps with functional coping skills.  Such as the ability to not get too triggered and take a knife and cut one's arms to shreds.  It does not teach how to be a truly emotional human.  

That's my very very humble and non-professional opinion.

I just don't want anyone to think that there  a cure for a pwBPD is out there.  It's not gaining confidence.  My sister has BPD.  I work very hard at being with her not to trigger her and to support her and her kids.  But she'll never appreciate me for the great and loving brother in a reciprocal manner.  I've accepted that for a fact.  It's all about her.  Using logic and rational thought and trying to apply it to the Disorder is not a rational decision.  A pwBPD just doesn't see the world the same.  

However, for NPD's like me, doing the work can provide change and real growth that goes beyond the functional and moment.  My changes have been substantial and long lasting.  I hope I don't regress.  My world is larger.  My connections deeper.  My life filled with much more meaning.

I just don't see any pwBPD who move to a similar place.  My sister will one day collapse into herself and it will be harder and harder to connect with her.  

I'm very sad.  I hope I'm wrong.  All I can do is support her the best I can in the moment.  

[Blimblam]

tausk,

From what I read online about schemas therapys approach to treating a pwBPD is to have them peel back the layers down to the that traumatized abandoned child and to reparent the abandoned child.  Supposedly it is terrifying for them because they would be facing their inner nightmare.

There is a book called the Heros Journey by Joseph Campbell.  IN the heros journey it is shown how actually in many myths from different cultures around the world the hero has to go through hell to find or save a lost love or find the missing piece.  The heros journey Myths are archtypical metaphors for finding salvation.

So its not really a new concept.

[Ceruleanblue]

I watched a lot of youtube videos done by a lady who had "recovered" from BPD. I'm still skeptical that it can be overcome, but I'm sure there are some who do get a lot better. If they want to, and if they do the hard work. I also read an article not long ago about Marsha Linehan, talking about how she herself had suffered from a full blown case of BPD, yet didn't reveal this until just recently. No wonder she was able to help create DBT therapy, she had an "inside" view, so to speak.

I'm not holding on to any hope of my uBPDh having a great "recovery". He simply likes they way he is, or he'd change it. I'm sure getting better does take a lot of soul searching, hard work, constant vigilance, and I'd bet in most cases they could benefit from the help of some medication.

Heck, if I thought I had BPD, I would be relentless in trying to get better, and taking responsibility for my care. I've been that way dealing with my anxiety, and OCD. I don't see my issues as an excuse to mistreat others, and if I had BPD, I'd be doing everything in my power to stop hurting those closest to me... .to say nothing of the damage it does to themselves.

I too have been told by my therapist that there is not a lot of hope for those with BPD, that they are very hard to treat. I trusted her judgement, and she's the expert, but I have a hard time accepting that anyone is just hopeless, if they want to try hard enough. The whole thing that makes BPD so bad though, IMHO, is the denial. Most of them never want to come out of the denial, and they are experts at blaming others, therefore they never see the need to work on themselves.

[Tausk]

tausk,

From what I read online about schemas therapys approach to treating a pwBPD is to have them peel back the layers down to the that traumatized abandoned child and to reparent the abandoned child.  Supposedly it is terrifying for them because they would be facing their inner nightmare.

There is a book called the Heros Journey by Joseph Campbell.  IN the heros journey it is shown how actually in many myths from different cultures around the world the hero has to go through hell to find or save a lost love or find the missing piece.  The heros journey Myths are archtypical metaphors for finding salvation.

So its not really a new concept.

Yes, Jeffry Young has a treatment protocol, but most therapists wouldn't even think of using much of it on a patient.  It involves completely breaking down the existing psyche of someone and rebuilding a self.  Basically a psychotic breakdown and rebuild.  But more than likely going to cause suicide or worse.

Again, of the millions of pwBPD, start to list the names of those you think have recovered?  Of the 15-30 million in the U.S. alone, name some who have recovered?

The treatment for pwBPD for recovery, is used for suicidal teenagers who have no other hope. Teenage girls w BPD's who are in psych wards and realize somethings wrong and have no choice about therapy, and the therapists believe it's a last chance.  They roll the dice in extremely controlled environment.  But for a higher functioning BPD, just hope to manage some of the symptoms.  

For us, since a self is a bit more existent, albeit shallow and fearful, it's more about finding the real self and growing from there.  We have the chance.  That's why one school of thought in modern psychology is that treating a pwBPD is hopeless but treating a pwNPD (us) has potential, but not likely.

And a far a Joseph Campbell, he's an expert on MYTHOLOGY.

Which I read a lot of when I was younger.  The hold out of a fantasy is part of the reason I have trouble letting go.   I've wasted a ton o my life in pathetic fantasy, while I jealously watched the rest of the world live.  It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. The solutions don't involve anything to do with my ex and her potential for change.  Because my ex has almost no real hope for any deep change.  Just maybe a chance a manageability.

I can barely instill change in myself.  Look on this board, 90% of the dialogue is about "them" when "we" are the problem.  Yes the Disorder is all about them.  But the problem/solution is simply the truth about us.

[Blimblam]

And a far a Joseph Campbell, he's an expert on MYTHOLOGY.

Which I read a lot of when I was younger.  The hold out of a fantasy is part of the reason I have trouble letting go.   I've wasted a ton o my life in pathetic fantasy, while I jealously watched the rest of the world live.  It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. The solutions don't involve anything to do with my ex and her potential for change.  Because my ex has almost no real hope for any deep change.  Just maybe a chance a manageability.

I can barely instill change in myself.  Look on this board, 90% of the dialogue is about "them" when "we" are the problem.  Yes the Disorder is all about them.  But the problem/solution is simply the truth about us.

first thing. This is probably a highly unpopular view but I view all religion and fables as myths and a form of psychology. I find it as relevant as modern psychology in many ways. In many ways I think some of the practices and realizations are far more advanced than modern psychology and we are only starting to rediscover ancient knowledge. There is a reason psychology uses names from greek myths constantly to describe archetypes.  Humans have been creating archetypes to describe aspects of the psyche for thousands of years it is nothing new and it is relevant unless one gets caught up in the dogma of it all. It is the Disney style fairytale of prince saves the princess that I think is dangerous.  The white picket fence fairytale.

so tausk what do you propose is the truth about us? and how do we go about discovering it?