What is normal?

[vortex of confusion]

I wasn't sure what to title this thread but the gist of it is that I am wondering how to figure out what is normal and what isn't. In another thread, it was suggested that I stop normalizing and rationalizing things. I realize that this is one of my coping mechanisms. I have become so enmeshed and isolated that I have a difficult time figuring out what is considered normal. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home and some of that dysfunction still spills over into my life as an adult. When I compare the dysfunction in my marital relationship to the dysfunction in my family of origin, there is no comparison. Things seem like a cakewalk compared to some of the stuff that I dealt with growing up.

Am I alone in feeling this way or have others had this experience as well? If so, what kinds of things did you do to help figure out what is acceptable and what isn't. I realize that everyone has different values (ie. the gnome example) and I realize that things will always be a bit off in a relationship with BPD. However, I am trying to wrap my mind around how to stop normalizing and rationalizing.

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[123Phoebe]

I am trying to wrap my mind around how to stop normalizing and rationalizing.

Thinking and trying to wrap my brain around things that feel blechy to me is what has usually gotten me into trouble.  If I feel resentful, I'm probably doing something against my core beliefs and values. 

I can relate to everything you have said.  My (long gone) marriage was a walk in the park compared to my childhood.  Yet... .  I was still using the same coping methods.  Being unhappy, but searching for happiness through other people by trying to keep them happy; normalizing, rationalizing...   Anger scared me, mostly my own.  I feared my own anger because to own it, I'd have to do something about it and I really wanted someone else to do something about it.  If they were okay, I was okay.  If they weren't, I wasn't either.  But if they weren't and did something about it, I wouldn't have to own my anger; I could lose myself again, disappear.  It's twisted.

I'm always learning how to get in touch with myself.  Who am I?  I'm still here, not disappearing; I haven't given myself completely away to the others in my life...   Not being afraid to speak up and state what you don't like, or sometimes harder than that is to own what it is that you really do.  When my mind begins to rationalize, there might actually be a boundary that's being overlooked.  Am I going to feel resentful later or am I giving into this by choice?  Can I live with myself?

I just try to bring it back to myself. 

Hope that helps

[enlighten me]

What is normal is a huge question and depends on a number of things. Cultural differences mean that whats normal in one country may not be considered so in another.

Rather than label it as normal behaviour I consider whether it is healthy and good.

If the behaviour is unreasonable, selfish, or just plain mean then I believe its wrong. That said it is only my perspective. Things such as infidelity which to me is a relationship ending thing my uBPD exgf didn't see as such a big deal. She said I could be unfaithful to her and she could forgive me. She even said that she hoped while I was working away that I was getting my needs met.

[vortex of confusion]

I can relate to everything you have said.  My (long gone) marriage was a walk in the park compared to my childhood.  Yet... .  I was still using the same coping methods.  Being unhappy, but searching for happiness through other people by trying to keep them happy; normalizing, rationalizing...  

YES! I think that is exactly what I am experiencing.

Anger scared me, mostly my own.  I feared my own anger because to own it, I'd have to do something about it and I really wanted someone else to do something about it.  If they were okay, I was okay.  If they weren't, I wasn't either.  But if they weren't and did something about it, I wouldn't have to own my anger; I could lose myself again, disappear.  It's twisted.

I can stand up for others and be angry for others but I can't seem to be angry on my own behalf. I like your description here. It really captures the essence of one of my struggles. I am so afraid of being angry. I grew up around a bunch of angry people. It was like there were only two emotions that people expressed in our house growing up. You were either happy or you were angry. And if you were angry, all hell would break loose. I am so afraid that if I let myself be angry I will hurt those around me.

I'm always learning how to get in touch with myself.  Who am I?  I'm still here, not disappearing; I haven't given myself completely away to the others in my life...   Not being afraid to speak up and state what you don't like, or sometimes harder than that is to own what it is that you really do.  When my mind begins to rationalize, there might actually be a boundary that's being overlooked.  Am I going to feel resentful later or am I giving into this by choice?  Can I live with myself?

Good things to ponder. I sometimes have a problem speaking up because I am so afraid of the punishment that I will receive if what I say isn't in line with what I should be saying. When I tried to speak up about something that I didn't want to do, my husband told me all of the reasons that I should do it. He was so comforting and reassuring. He talked to me on the phone the whole way there and most of the way back. He gave me so much attention and so much care. I am having a hard time accepting the choices that I made because I wasn't strong enough to stand up and say NO. Not only no, but hell no! [/quote]

[vortex of confusion]

If the behaviour is unreasonable, selfish, or just plain mean then I believe its wrong. That said it is only my perspective. Things such as infidelity which to me is a relationship ending thing my uBPD exgf didn't see as such a big deal. She said I could be unfaithful to her and she could forgive me. She even said that she hoped while I was working away that I was getting my needs met.

See, that is where I get stuck. I get stuck on the selfish part. There are times that I feel like I am being selfish when I say no to others. Over time, my definition of unreasonable was adapted in order to cope. Things that I have done in the last year are things that I would have never dreamed of doing. I adapted to the point that I no longer recognized who I was.

Infidelity is another thing that has been a source of conflict for me. Early in our marriage, my spouse would choose porn over me. To give you an idea of how bad it was, I would wake up most morning and find him doing that. On our wedding night, he chose to watch PPV. Our marriage was not consumated until the next day. I felt like he was cheating on me with porn. That was rationalized as "all red blooded males look at porn". That is what is commonly heard. I felt weird for feeling like he was cheating on my by looking at porn and taking care of things himself. i had no idea what was normal and what wasn't because there are some things that some people simply do not talk about. My feeling like I was being cheated on because of porn seemed a bit extreme to me. The boundary of what was considered cheating kept getting pushed and pushed and pushed until we both ended up having affairs. It wasn't considered cheating (by him) because I had his permission and blessing. Am I proud of it? No. At one time, I would have absolutely considered an affair as a relationship ending thing.

[enlighten me]

I think it all boils down to what you are comfortable with.

Your own values and standards may not be the same as a partners and this is where compromise comes in.

Something that you are uncomfortable with should be respected. The problem with BPD is that it is a selfish condition. Things are not done to hurt us they are done because it is the coping mechanism the BPD has come up with.

If a BPD thinks that they can get more satisfaction with porn than with you then the obvious solution to them is to use porn. It is not done to intentionally hurt you it is just the logical solution to them. The fact that in a healthy relationship the feelings of the partner are taken into consideration doesn't apply to a BPD relationship.

There is a need for instant gratification. BPD is a very child like condition. I always relate my BPD exs to acting like a child in a super market going past the sweet aisle. They want it now, they have their tantrums and you either give in to them or they sulk with you and think you are being mean.

[waverider]

A relationship with a pwBPD is never going to be "normal", but that doesn't always mean it will be bad.

Trying to "normalize" a pwBPD relationship is like trying to take the color brown and adding pigments to it in order to achieve a nice rosy pink. You will drive yourself nuts and end up with just a different shade of brown. Much better to find complimentary ways to include brown into your life style.

What is acceptable and what is not, is a personal decision and can be defined by what makes you feel uncomfortable and what doesn't.

The hard thing is sorting the wood from the chaff, and stop sweating the stuff you can't alter. Stop chasing symptoms and identify the common underlying values. These typically include, abuse, devaluation and disrespect. If you feel it, it is happening. The shades and details don't matter. Your benchmarks should be eg "you are making me feel lousy, I will remove myself until I am comfortable". It is not your job to analyse what someone else should do to achieve this, as that is imposing your will (controlling) on someone else.

[vortex of confusion]

What is acceptable and what is not, is a personal decision and can be defined by what makes you feel uncomfortable and what doesn't.

The hard thing is sorting the wood from the chaff, and stop sweating the stuff you can't alter. Stop chasing symptoms and identify the common underlying values. These typically include, abuse, devaluation and disrespect. If you feel it, it is happening. The shades and details don't matter. Your benchmarks should be eg "you are making me feel lousy, I will remove myself until I am comfortable". It is not your job to analyse what someone else should do to achieve this, as that is imposing your will (controlling) on someone else.

Following the notion that what is acceptable and what isn't  can be defined by what makes you feel uncomfortable is part of the problem. For example, saying no makes me uncomfortable. Trying to create and enforce boundaries that have to do with my well being makes me uncomfortable. A lot of times it makes me uncomfortable because I know that there will be repercussions. There will be push back. I know I can't control other people. This isn't about how to control them. It is about regaining some sort of equilibrium. It is about not backing down when other people say and do things that lead to me being uncomfortable because I am feeling like a b**ch or a meany or something else. That is one of the things that I struggle with. No, I can't control other people and I don't want to control them. However, I know that certain behaviors of mine lead to certain reactions from them. If I don't want to deal with the reaction, then I can just not do the behavior.

I am not chasing symptoms. I am trying to figure out when to push through the discomfort because the discomfort is PART of the process. If setting boundaries and trying to take care of myself didn't cause such feelings of discomfort, then I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have found all sorts of crazy ways to adapt.

[waverider]

A lifetime of invalidation has destroyed your own sense of self worth, and your sense of entitlement to your view. You feel uncomfortable defending this right. Hence this is unacceptable. You know this.

Knowing what is acceptable and what isn't is only the first step. Actually enforcing your rights is the hard part, this is where you are stumbling, rather than identifying what actually is, or is not, acceptable.

So gaining the courage to take the first step and enforcing your first boundary is important. This is where we go back to clearing the playing field of too many issues. It is near impossible to introduce boundaries across the board. That is like declaring war on the entire world at once.

Find one issue that really gets to you, and just dont analyse all the other issues for now. Once you have done that devise a boundary and consequence, use the members here to work this through if you like.

Then just action this boundary, again, again and again consistently. You will be surprised that it eventually works. This will give you the confidence for the next one. Getting that first stone rolling is a big important step to moving mountains. You can survey a mountain for ever, but that is not going to shift it.

[vortex of confusion]

A lifetime of invalidation has destroyed your own sense of self worth, and your sense of entitlement to your view. You feel uncomfortable defending this right. Hence this is unacceptable. You know this.

OUCH! Very true. I say ouch because the thing that I am finding most difficult is accepting things as they are rather than putting some kind of positive spin on them. I find myself asking the question, "How was it invalidation if I voluntarily changed my mind, my actions, etc.?" I know know the answer is that it was invalidation because I did not really want to change myself but did so to make things easier.

So gaining the courage to take the first step and enforcing your first boundary is important. This is where we go back to clearing the playing field of too many issues. It is near impossible to introduce boundaries across the board. That is like declaring war on the entire world at once.

I had a small success last night. There was something my husband was doing to me. Normally, I just let it go and don't say anything. Last night, I said no. He is apologizing for it profusely today and acting goofy about it. I didn't say no to make him feel bad. I didn't say no for any reason other than that I was not comfortable with what was happening and I didn't want to do it. Today he wants to talk about it and apologize for it and make excuses. It isn't a situation that needs to be discussed in my mind. I tried not to engage and said something like, "No apology necessary. You didn't do anything wrong." He didn't do anything wrong. I just didn't feel like doing what he wanted to do.