Convinced her to see the doctor, now what?

[Takehiko]

Hello folks.

I lurked on this board for a bit and finally posted after telling my uBPD mother I thought she had BPD, which was not the best idea according to advice on here. I wanted to get her to realize that it's her behavior that pushes people away and not that everyone she has ever known happened to be a complete b*stard... .it turned out to be more of an accusation than anything ... .more details are in my intro post if it helps get a handle on the situation.

So she agreed to go to the doctor, but only to appease me (so she said) and the appointment is coming up really soon. I'd like for her to be able to see a psychiatrist and get some kind of help, I would also like for me to get some kind of help too because I'm pretty much at my wits' end with this, plus other family problems, some to do with her, some unrelated.

So I wondered if anyone has any advice on what to do/say while at the doctors? I'm going in with her, although she tried to scare me away, because I don't believe she will probably say something like "my daughter insisted I come but there's nothing wrong with me," if I'm not there.

Also, anything I should do/say to her before we go to the doctors? I've kind of got her to agree not to lie to the health professionals (because she said she would do this and had done in the past.)

[Jema]

Hi Takehiko,

First, let me say congratulations for getting your uBPDm into therapy (T). It's a big step, but please be prepared for things to NOT proceed the way you might want or expect. In order to seek a cure, people with mental illness must: a) recognize they have a problem, and b) want very strongly to remedy that problem. Very, very few pwBPD ever make it to step 'a'. This "blindness" to introspection itself seems to be a major (and most insidious) part of the illness.

I was also able to convince my uBPDm to see a T with me. I had to threaten her with NC. Although, at some point she convinced herself that I needed help, so she thought that it would be a good way to have someone evaluate me. Note that we live on opposite coasts, so I found a T near her (M), and I used Skype to participate in the sessions.

My situation is a bit different from yours, though, in that I have never mentioned BPD to her. At any rate, that ship has sailed for you, so best to try to move on--I doubt that in the long run, it will make much difference.

As far as lying is concerned, I don't think pwBPDs actually think they are lying because they somehow convince themselves of their own distortions. I am speculating, but I would guess that my mother could pass a polygraph when saying many of the things that I know are not true (and have witnesses as proof.)

Anyway, the biggest shock for me at the start of our sessions was her immediate and complete vilification of me to the T. I realized very quickly that in order to feel complete as a "Victim", she needs to have a "Villain". She has always had a Villain in her life--it's how she organizes her vitriolic energy which defines her. I had been badgered quite a bit before, but she had never before flung all of her toxicity at me in the manner that she did in front of T.

I am/was able to deal with this by keeping my cool and sticking to facts, especially when the are clear patterns of behavior including: suicide threats, tantrums, bullying, sullenness, petulance, withdrawal, substance abuse, etc. I have put together a "journal" with dates, names, places, and other verified information from which to draw. This in itself doesn't convince the pwBPD, but it does help me to stay on track (in my practice of S.E.T.).

Another realization that I had was about the true workings of F.O.G. (fear, obligation, and guilt)--especially the fear part. The T initially allowed us to engage in our normal cycle of bickering, but a some point she asked me to point out the good qualities in M.

At that moment, I was at a loss for words and felt quite embarrassed. Later, I realized that when I engaged with M, I entered a state of "flight-or-fight", that is: A withdrawal into my "primitive/reptilian mind". Once I regressed to that condition, it was very difficult for me to instantaneously be my normal, rational self. In effect I was unable access to the flexible and creative part of my mind.

These two insights were the most valuable parts of the therapy. In our 4th joint session (we each had additional individual sessions), M left in the middle of session. She was very upset that T had validated me (albeit very mildly so).

We are now NC--this is my condition until she returns to T, which will most likely never happen. While I feel a slight twinge of loss from time to time, overall I am much happier in my life. I feel quite liberated, to be honest.

I don't regret having gone through my experience. I learned a great deal about myself and the "mechanics" of our dysfunctional relationship.

Please be prepared for what may be an inevitable conclusion. Whatever happens, don't blame yourself and don't look back. You cannot control the actions of another human being, especially one that is afflicted with a mental illness like BPD.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Jema

[Jema]

Oops, I forgot to mention: I hope that you will report back on the progress of your sessions.

Best of luck.

Cheers,

Jema

[Takehiko]

Hey… I came on here to report my progress as I thought it might help others. I figured people weren't sure if they had anything they could reply with that might help, so maybe my experiences would be of use. But as I log on, I have a reply!

Thank you so much Jema, it really feels good to get a message like yours and hear about your experiences.  

I totally feel you on the lying issue, I think my uBPDM believes her own versions of events, including forgetting things that have happened that I've witnessed, or making up things to cover her tracks.

I really like your idea of keeping a "journal" of incidents for your own reference. I'm keeping a record of everything I can about what's happened since the crunch point.

I honestly, would be quite glad if she would act out in therapy, I think it would help convince me that she isn't just the victim she likes to portray herself as with me. I often find myself being drawn into the victim stuff even though I know what she's (unconsciously, I think) doing. Like yours, my M has villains, except hers are pretty much everyone on the planet except for her, me, and my partner. Me as extension of her, partner as extension of me, I guess. My sister mainly got painted as the villain, makes an excellent one as she went NC with M years ago.

I think what I've come to learn is that my responses to her behavior haven't been the greatest and it's at least partly my fault that things blew up the way they did. Not that I regret that, but I think that my "shut down feelings and keep mouth shut until you can't take it any more" MO is probably not a healthy way of dealing with problems. :P

I'll go through my experience, and hope that it might be useful for others as well as for me talking about it with you guys.

I was dreading the doctors appointment so much…. I mean where would I even begin with this unholy mess? So I talked about it with my partner, who is very supportive, but we couldn't really come up with a good strategy. So last night I called a mental health helpline that's available for family members, friends, etc as well as people suffering from mental health problems themselves. I talked to someone who listened to my difficulties about my family, especially uBPDM. I asked her what I should do, since while I had convinced M to see the doctor, M was not ready to seek therapy herself, and basically it was going to be me explaining to the doctor what I thought her problems were and her just sitting there. The helpline lady advised this:

Tell the doctor what the problems with your relationship are.

Explain how M's symptoms impacted on her life and yours.

Don't mention you think she has BPD.

Try asking for a psychiatrist.

She also told me not to expect too much from the doctor since my country's health service is very over-subscribed and they basically don't do mental health unless you are a danger to yourself or others.

Even though this doesn't bring up all the epic historical problems with M, it gave me some place to start and was helpful as a guideline.

When I went to the appointment I was absolutely pooping myself. I met M there. When we went into the doctor my leg was shaking, I had no control over it. Anyway M sat there stony faced while I described what the problems were in our relationship as I saw it: M far too over clingy, expecting me to be her only emotional support (she has no other relatives or close friends still in contact) with far too high expectations, never wanting me to leave, begging me to stay with her, physical clinging, telling me her relationship with me is the only thing that keeps her going. (That one is close to a suicide threat but not as explicit as ones she's made in the past.) And on the flip side, unloading all her vitriol onto me - constant stream of hatred, anger, blaming of other people, complaining, etc. And how she doesn't understand how other people feel and why the react to her as they do. Which is why she has no other relationships.

M didn't make huge amounts of responses although I prompted her - I didn't want it to be me dragging her there and accusing her of stuff.

The doc said it was good that we both wanted to keep contact, and that we were both willing to get counseling. She advised a relationship counseling service.

The doc said she didn't think M needed to see a psychiatrist though. I think because I didn't give her the litany of weird stuff. I think I will discuss this with my T once I get one, and see what they might advise.

There was a bit of discussion between me, M and the doc. Upshots of it were that I felt the doc validated a lot of my points.

I brought up that M admits to wearing different "masks" and playing roles with different people. M is actually quite proud of her ability to do it. Doc said that this wasn't something you should do with close relationships, that they shouldn't be superficial.

Some discussion was had about how M treated myself and Sister differently as kids. M doesn't deny treating her like crap BTW, today she justified it as saying Sister was a difficult child, and I was placid (mainly because I was hiding and trying to ignore all the crud going on… but anyway) and that Sis did "horrible things" when she was a teenager. At this point I said "We were children!" and the doc validated by saying "It's up to you [M] to manage it." Massive can of worms I'm sure will be opened some time… but not today.

Doc also called M on "I'm your mother" behavior. Like a lot of uBPDMs I've heard about on here, she uses this as an excuse to do whatever the heck she likes and expect me to put up with it. I said that she couldn't use this as an excuse. Doc said "All mother and daughter relationships are different", and that we would have to find our ground rules… Ground rules!

I could have kissed my doctor for saying these things to my mother, she seriously needed to hear it from someone not me.

Things got emotional in there, although I managed not to cry. M going on about how I was her "angel". At that point I snapped and said "I'm not your angel, I'm not perfect and I can't live up to what you expect of me." I'm sure up to this point she thought I liked all this crud … and being told that I am the only thing keeping her going… how special to know her life and sanity is in my hands! 

The most fun part of all was when she said "So much for unconditional love. You'll only love me if I'm a certain way." Later, I expressed how hurtful it was to be told that you didn't love somebody. I do love her, I wouldn't be going through this if I didn't. But there you go, more "poor me" victim stuff from her. It is just reflex with her, I think.

As far as M concerned, all this stuff completely out of the blue. I mentioned a previous occasion when I had had enough of her "vitriol phone calls" basically calling me to download all the nasty stuff in her head, in which I could put the phone down for ten minutes and walk away, come back and she would still be ranting, broke down in tears and told her to stop it. That she had stopped for a while but recently it was back (mostly in a milder form though), I got asked the question why I didn't mention this stuff to M when it happened. Good point, doctor. Well, aside from trying to ignore these things to get through them, M would get upset, and if I am trapped somewhere with her, I don't want things getting all out of control. But yeah, that might have helped if I hadn't been afraid of M's reactions…. still, we are where we are.

Afterwards M cried a lot. "I don't mean to be a bad person, I wouldn't ever want to hurt you," etc. She admitted she doesn't understand why people feel the way they do about her or react the way they do. You know, messed up as she is, I do love this woman, and I do want a relationship, as long as it can be on different terms. So we have agreed to go to family counseling as well as individual counseling.

I felt a lot better about things after this, because something is progressing! God knows there are a lot, a LOT, of things from the past that need addressing, but I felt like getting the present situation to be bearable to start with was a priority, and it looks as though we might be on the way. It's also that I managed to get through the scary parts of talking to someone else about this with M there, which was pretty darn terrifying.

For me the next stage is going to be finding a counselor with some experience of family members of pwBPD, I think they might be quite a rare species, and to set up some family counseling for me and uBPDM.

Jema, I'm going to avoid trying to convince myself this is going to solve everything, but hopefully it is the first step to some kind of peaceful future… ! 

(Just saw the preview, sorry for ridiculously long post everyone. )

[Harri]

Hi Takehiko.  Well done!  I am blown away that you (and jema) were able to get your mom's in a doctor's office... .and also that you were willing to do so.  I did not reply to your first post because I could not relate, I was stumped... .and I realize now that I should have at least expressed my admiration for you willingness and your compassion. 

Calling the help line was a stroke of genius and the doctor you spoke with sounds like a keeper!  *Ground Rules!*  What a great phrase! And her saying "It's up to you to manage it" was also great. 

At that point I snapped and said "I'm not your angel, I'm not perfect and I can't live up to what you expect of me." I'm sure up to this point she thought I liked all this crud … and being told that I am the only thing keeping her going… how special to know her life and sanity is in my hands!

And again, Well done!  The weight of those expectations are crushing/crippling never mind being inappropriate! 

The most fun part of all was when she said "So much for unconditional love. You'll only love me if I'm a certain way." Later, I expressed how hurtful it was to be told that you didn't love somebody. I do love her, I wouldn't be going through this if I didn't. But there you go, more "poor me" victim stuff from her. It is just reflex with her, I think.

I am glad you spoke up about how she was hurting you.  The only unconditional love there truly is is from a parent to a child (or pets!  )  The love a child has for the parent is not unconditional nor should it be.   

It sounds like things went really well. I am glad you will be going to therapy, together and individually.  It will be good to have a person who can support you through this.  I would hazard a guess and say that at some point, your mom most likely will act out in the T's office if she keeps up with the visits. 

You are off to a very good start.  I with you both the very best.   

[Takehiko]

Thank you Harri for your encouragement.   It's great to know there are people out there who understand and we can look out for each other!

Yes, she is a very special doctor I think, she has a lot of compassion and sympathy as well as maturity ... .so she's always booked up weeks or months in advance of course! Everyone thinks she's the best one in the practise.

Unconditional love from parents and pets... .ha ha. Reminds me of something M said to me once: "I wanted to have kids so that someone would love me unconditionally" which I think speaks volumes about her state of mind. Not to mention being a pretty disturbing reason to have children.

Thank you once again! I'll update once something more happens. I'm going to take a break for it for a couple of days to get some work done and relax.

[Linda Maria]

Hi takehiko!  congratulations on being so brave, taking such a big step, and making such great progress!  You're much braver than I am!  I can't give you any advice, but I was struck by your comment that maybe over the years somethings were partly your fault because you didn't speak up, and let things get bad without saying anything.  I have thought this as well, regarding my uBPDsis - I have unwittingly been an enabler all my life - I'm not a people pleaser with everyone, but I'm not confrontational or argumentative - and my sister is.  I thought we had a reasonable relationship for a long time, but I always knew it was only because I listened to all her slightly incredible stories, didn't challenge her on obvious inconsistencies, and mainly went along with things her way to keep the peace.  After my Mum died, there were some things that came up that were no big deal, and easily sorted, but what she wanted to do was unacceptable to me, and for once in my life I had to say No.  That's when the distortion campaign, hate mail etc really started, and it shows no sign of abating.  But if I had stood up to her years ago - I don't think we would have had a relationship for as long as we had, and there's no point beating yourself up for being a nice, peace-loving person!  So don't think that for a moment - none of us are perfect but you will no doubt have always handled every situation and incident the best way you saw fit at the time, and the only way you could.  Don't ever feel bad about it.  Wish you well JB

[Takehiko]

Linda Maria - thank you! Yes I know exactly what you mean. It's hard not to be that way because sometimes you're too afraid to say anything for fear of making things worse, or try to block things out to make them go away. I guess it's a natural reaction, and it's one I resort to a lot. I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through with your sister, this idea of thinking you have a reasonable relationship... .that's kind of what I feel with M too. Wishing you well also!

So, I plucked up the courage to call the family counseling service. They don't think it's a good idea to go for family counseling and individual counseling at the same time, so I've got an appointment for an initial assessment just for me. I think it's a good step but for some reason I feel guilty about going there on my own and not making a joint appointment like M and I discussed at the doc. Still there's no way I could face going to joint counseling first if I have to do them consecutively.

[sophiegirl]

I just want to say well done and good luck Takehiko, you are I have to say much braver than I am, you have given me a lot to think about.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, Takehiko,

I'm glad you were able to feel supported and validated by the doctor.

So, I plucked up the courage to call the family counseling service. They don't think it's a good idea to go for family counseling and individual counseling at the same time, so I've got an appointment for an initial assessment just for me. I think it's a good step but for some reason I feel guilty about going there on my own and not making a joint appointment like M and I discussed at the doc. Still there's no way I could face going to joint counseling first if I have to do them consecutively.

I'm not a professional, but I agree with that advice. Relationship counseling requires two people who are both willing and able to compromise and listen to the other person's wants and needs and feelings. People with PDs (in general) don't tend to be able to do that very well. Furthermore, if there is any abuse in the relationship--physical, verbal, or emotional--the advice I have seen most counselors give is to have each person sort out their issues with their own T for a while first before joint counseling is even considered.

It sounds to me like you may feel it is your job (and your job alone) to make sure your mother gets help and to fix your relationship with her. I think we've all wanted our parent to get better and placed our hopes on getting them into treatment. The truth is, you can't control the outcome even if your mother does see someone--she may never get better. And your relationship with her might only be able to improve as much as you can do on your end; it might not ever get to be the relationship you wish you had. The only thing you can control in all this is whether you take care of yourself. And therapy can be very helpful for that, so I'm glad you have decided to see someone on your own.

Wishing you peace,

PF