Is it normal to be able to read your SO and know something is off?

[Harri]

Hi.  I hope I can get some opinions for people here about something my ?uBPDex said to me in a few of our arguments.  Sorry for the long post.  

If tldr, just go to the last paragraph for my question please!  

Some background:  We both grew up with what we think are uBPD mothers and pretty disordered fathers either on their own merit or from being married to Queen/Witch type uBPDs.  We met as nons, but given our histories, we both had and have some issues.  I was diagnosed with PTSD.  He was never diagnosed with anything and thought he was quite put together, although he never did go for counseling.  All of his previous r/s failed and according to him all of the women were disordered in some way and they caused the breakup.  I, on the other hand, had never been in a relationship and he was my first.  My first everything and oh boy did I have stars in my eyes!  :P  I thought he was the greatest thing ever when we first got together but later on I could see he too had more than a few problems.  He could never see that tho and all the responsibility for the relationship problems were put on me.  I allowed that to happen because I was very meek and so very desperate for love plus, with my own FOO, I had no self confidence, no basis for what is normal and I was used to being the scapegoat for everyone.  I also was willing to wait for him to see the light.  Yeah.    

Now I did have issues, more than most people and I was quite open about them.  When we first met, he was acting as a mentor to me.  I thought he really had his act together and in some ways he did.  He is the one who moved the relationship into the realm of romance.  So right off the bat there was a power imbalance of sorts and looking back I can see how inappropriate it was to start a relationship.    Because of the mentoring role he had he knew my history, he knew my fears and my weaknesses, plus I was open to hearing about them and taking responsibility for my issues.  Granted, it was not always easy and sometimes I was hurt or angry but I could usually work it through and rarely got angry *with him* about it.  i was too grateful and so very eager to heal and learn and do all the stuff 'normal' people would do (I saw myself as quite flawed and hugely disadvantaged).   In hindsight, one of my issues was taking responsibility for things that were not mine to own simply to make him happy.  Yeah, I was *that* desperate, and yes I was just as 'deceitful' with who I was.  I tried to be who he wanted me to be and in turn he did the same.  What a mess.

So anyway, my ex tended to use my openness and willingness to see my part in our issues as a way of hiding his own bad behaviors and coping skills.  No matter how I said something, if there was the slightest hint of anger toward his behavior or if I hinted I was not happy about something, he would react by either giving me the silent treatment or he would wait and I swear he looked for things to get mad at me about in revenge.  I could predict it.  Within two days we would have a huge blow up and he would then accuse me of all sorts of things.  I learned it was just not worth bringing stuff up with him.  The relationship never got to 50/50 or 100/100 or whatever the heck it is supposed to be.  It was always more like 80/20 or 70/30.  

What has bothered me and I keep questioning even years later is something he would say if I asked him what was wrong or if he wanted to talk about whatever was bothering him or go do something.  No, I was not hounding him or nagging at him constantly to talk about his feelings or anything like that.  I was not taking it personally and worrying what I did wrong (remember now, my mom most likely had BPD... .I know quite a few of the behaviors).  I would simply notice he was having a bad day by either his posture or his tone and ask if he wanted to talk or go do something to take his mind off of it.  

He would respond to me by saying "Harri, I can not live under your emotional microscope" accusing me of hanging on to his every breath and stuff like that.

Sometimes, he would sulk and not talk or I could tell by the tone of his voice that he was just in a rotten mood.  He would be crabby and I could just feel the tension oozing off of him.  Rather than saying "Harri, I had a bad day and I am in a lousy mood I just want to be alone" he would act like a petulant child.  Looking back, there were times I would sigh in frustration.  Those sighs also elicited the old "emotional microscope" accusation but he would wait to use it when we had one of our big blow outs.  I got to the point of leaving the room and even that was used against me.  Apparently i was supposed to sit there while he was sulking and just do whatever it was he wanted me to do.

My question for you all is, is it normal to be able to read your SO and know when something is off?  Is it normal or even healthy to say hey, I can see something is bothering you, do you want to talk about it or go do something?  I really have no idea.  If you are with someone everyday and you care enough to pay attention, I would think it is a good thing to be able to see your partner.  Is that incorrect?  I really haven't a clue.  

[Turkish]

Hi.  I hope I can get some opinions for people here about something my ?uBPDex said to me in a few of our arguments. 

Sometimes, he would sulk and not talk or I could tell by the tone of his voice that he was just in a rotten mood.  He would be crabby and I could just feel the tension oozing off of him.  Rather than saying "Harri, I had a bad day and I am in a lousy mood I just want to be alone" he would act like a petulant child.  Looking back, there were times I would sigh in frustration.  Those sighs also elicited the old "emotional microscope" accusation but he would wait to use it when we had one of our big blow outs.  I got to the point of leaving the room and even that was used against me.  Apparently i was supposed to sit there while he was sulking and just do whatever it was he wanted me to do.

Hi Harri   glad to see you here!

I'm not exactly sure about the sighs, and your frustration is certainly understandable. Sometimes you just need to let it out. Do you think that might have been invalidating, aside from his immature behaviors? How would you react if he were doing the sighs? Especially up with a BPD mother, wouldn't that trigger you? I know I was certainly triggered enough by my Ex and just her tone. Even as LC as I am now with her, she can still trigger me! I don't think it's entirely her, but also those feelings of growing up with my BPD mom, even though I moved out 25 years ago and have been limited to moderate contact ever since. By her tone sometimes, I hear, "you're an idiot and don't know what the heck you are doing!"

My question for you all is, is it normal to be able to read your SO and know when something is off? Is it normal or even healthy to say hey, I can see something is bothering you, do you want to talk about it or go do something? I really have no idea.  If you are with someone everyday and you care enough to pay attention, I would think it is a good thing to be able to see your partner.  Is that incorrect?  I really haven't a clue.

My Ex would flat out tell me to say almost that exact same thing. I'm avoidant, I'll admit. I learned to self-sooth, being the only child of a single BPD mother (who never had boyfriends, so it was indeed just me and her). I didn't have the empathy to understand why my Ex couldn't do the same, and I was so sick of her often juvenile emotionality, that I would shut down and ignore her. So aside from the verbal and emotional abuse she performed towards me, I did often invalidate her. Only a few years in did I learn to deal with her depressions better. It took me finding her in suicide ideation to realize how much she depended upon me (or a partner, more correctly) as an emotional lighthouse.

Asking if someone is ok is entirely normal, and it's healthy if there is reciprocity. If there isn't reciprocity, then it's a loaded relationship, where one partner is acting as the emotional parent to the other.

*sigh*

[freedom33]

I'm avoidant, I'll admit. I learned to self-sooth, being the only child of a single BPD mother (who never had boyfriends, so it was indeed just me and her). I didn't have the empathy to understand why my Ex couldn't do the same, and I was so sick of her often juvenile emotionality, that I would shut down and ignore her. So aside from the verbal and emotional abuse she performed towards me, I did often invalidate her.

Same here - One of the good things that came out from my BPD rs for me was to learn how to become a bit more empathetic and understanding with others and their feelings.

[Turkish]

I'm avoidant, I'll admit. I learned to self-sooth, being the only child of a single BPD mother (who never had boyfriends, so it was indeed just me and her). I didn't have the empathy to understand why my Ex couldn't do the same, and I was so sick of her often juvenile emotionality, that I would shut down and ignore her. So aside from the verbal and emotional abuse she performed towards me, I did often invalidate her.

Same here - One of the good things that came out from my BPD rs for me was to learn how to become a bit more empathetic and understanding with others and their feelings.

I thought I was, and people have always described me as an empathetic, caring and listening person. Your comment made me think  :a mature empath shouldn't get to choose which emotions to validate. I don't feel FOG, but I do feel some guilt that I often invalidated a person in pain. The chasm between us was widening due to behaviors on both sides.

[freedom33]

I think I can naturally be empathetic with other people's feelings as long as their feelings don't invalidate me as a person. If what is expressed feels threatening to me it is difficult to keep my cool and simply stay with what is. Having said that, practicing all these BPD communication techniques over the last year have made a great difference for me (how I communicate my feelings) and accepting others for what is as well. Our rs improved when I worked on my comms skillset.

[Harri]

   Hi Turkish.  Loved your sign-off.  Now, would you like to talk about it or do something else?     

Okay, good.  I was hoping I would be challenged to look within on this, so thank you.  Sometimes it is easier when someone else pokes me with the old cattle prod. Ha, I guess that makes you the cattle prod!

Yes, I can see where it would be invalidating to him.  Yeah.  I did do that to him.  Ouch.  You asked how I would react if he did the same and well, he did.  And yeah, it totally sucked.  

I understand all too well the message you got from your mom that said "you're an idiot and don't know what the heck you are doing!".  I never know if it is a curse or a blessing that being a kid of I learn very quickly how someone uses tone, posture and facial expressions to convey information.  BTW, I am sure you know this, but I will say it anyway.  I do not know you well but I do know you are not an idiot by any stretch.

I also find your statement about learning to self soothe very interesting.  That gives me a new perspective on his being quiet, though it in no way excuses his sulky childish behavior.  Yeah.  I can see him better now so thank you.  That realization hurts a bit.  I could have done better for him.  

You used the term reciprocity and again, you hit the nail on the head.  There was not much of that at all.  In conflicts, I was expected to take responsibility for my behaviors with no excuses or explanations but if I tried to talk to him about his, another frequent response was "Harri, my behaviors do not occur in a vacuum".   I had forgotten about that part until I read your reply.  I am amazed I forgot it because it was a huge source of frustration and resentment.  He was forever using a different set of rules for himself.  He would also use the information he had about my history or my fears to hide behind saying well you are the one with PTSD or you are the one who triggered me  Blah, blah blah. <--- and those blah's were most likely conveyed quite clearly to him.  Aw crap.  

ARRRRGH!  But he was so warped and twisted and took total advantage and and and and... . No matter where I point the finger it sucks... .and it always comes back to me.

[Harri]

Turkish wrote:

a mature empath shouldn't get to choose which emotions to validate.

Wow.  bout  going!  Based on my gut reaction to this, I have a bit more maturing to do.  Well, that is what I am here for so that is good.  Thanks for that insight.

Freedom wrote:

If what is expressed feels threatening to me it is difficult to keep my cool and simply stay with what is.

That is so very difficult.  I struggle on several levels with this.  First, there is so much about 'normal' interaction and communication that I still do not know and have not really experienced.  Then I have to question if something feels invalidating because it really is or if someone popped a trigger they know nothing about and on and on.  So when I am in a situation there is always a bit of a disconnect and delay and it is quite awkward.  I am hoping the techniques offered on this site will help me.  Lately I have been feeling lonely.  I have been okay for a while now, but it is definitely time for me to move along and get more involved again.

Thanks to you both!

[Aussie JJ]

Harri,

I could read it then but they were all used to manipulate me, I was lead down the path and baited with baby voice, aggressive yelling in my face.  All of it caused me to shut down.  Hindsight, these different 'modes' or 'faces' are all used to manipulate.  When i look back through them I can see how I have been twisted and turned. 

Now, I can see it very easily.  I understand it, I know what's happening it is just so hard to walk away from it. 

I tried validating and using SET last night, really put effort in and just got told it was my fault that I didn't like what she was telling me.  Forget the fact that I have medical concerns and she doesn't see them.  IT IS MY FAULT THAT I DONT LIKE WHAT SHE TELLS ME. 

I have had to re-evaluate how I am coping with it all.  For me now, say what I am going to do, do it and just ignore her emotional state.  This will get an awful kickback as I will find out later today when I rock up for a medical appointment.  However what choice do I have.  It's very hard to regulate my emotions when I am still attached on a small level to her emotional well being, I have to have more solid boundary's for myself with not engaging. 


AJJ. 

[BuildingFromScratch]

Yeah, mine would do the whole victimized baby routine too, to get out of trouble, Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[Harri]

AJJ, I am sorry you are having medical issues and she is unable to be supportive.  I do hope everything goes well for you.   

It is hard to walk away from it especially when you know those behaviors are being used to manipulate you!  Arrrrgh!  I was much better at dealing with my mother than with my ex, though that is a whole different arena.  I hate hate hate baby talk.  I hate people taking the whole victim stance too.  I absolutely despise manipulation.  I struggle with that because the anger keeps me engaged in the drama. 

What your SO says to you ties into what freedom wrote about it being hard to regulate when someone invalidates you.  What your SO is saying sounds very invalidating.  She pretty much negates your feelings needs and opinions in just one sentence.  I am not familiar with your situation so pay no attention if this does not apply or is not advisable--->  Have you ever told her that if she wants you to take what she has to say into consideration she has to talk to you with respect and show you some consideration or something along those lines?  If she continues, walk away?