BPD Negative Interpretation of Your Actions & Validation/Invalidation

[123Phoebe]

just to throw another term into the mix what do you guys thing about using the word "understand', as in "I understand what you are saying/

Good or bad... Pros and cons. hint; Think carefully about the consequence of whether you do or dont say this.

I don't think it's always a bad thing necessarily.  For me it depends on what the understanding is and if it's backed up with the goods. 

"I understand... , you'd rather I not be a backseat driver"

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[vortex of confusion]

just to throw another term into the mix what do you guys thing about using the word "understand', as in "I understand what you are saying/

Good or bad... Pros and cons. hint; Think carefully about the consequence of whether you do or dont say this.

I try to avoid using the term "understand" unless I really, truly understand what he is saying. I tend to phrase things more like, "I hear what you are saying but I don't understand your point of view." I let him know that I am listening and am making an effort to understand. We have had some problems because I thought he understood what I wanted or he thought I understood what he wanted. If two people are on the same page, then it isn't a problem. If two people aren't even in the same book, well then, saying things like "I understand what you are saying" can lead to assumptions and misunderstandings. Since a BPD tends to be childish and tends to understand things differently than a lot of people do, I would think that it would be best to steer clear of it. There are times when I think I understand him but two minutes later something will come up and it becomes obvious that we were speaking two different languages.

To get technical, I went and looked up the actual definition:

1. perceive the intended meaning of (words, a language, or speaker).

"he didn't understand a word I said"

be sympathetically or knowledgeably aware of the character or nature of.

"Picasso understood color"

synonyms:   appreciate, recognize, realize, acknowledge, know, be aware of, be conscious of; More

interpret or view (something) in a particular way.

"as the term is usually understood, legislation refers to regulations and directives"

2. infer something from information received (often used as a polite formula in conversation).

"I understand you're at art school"

[waverider]

be sympathetically or knowledgeably aware of the character or nature of.

"Picasso understood color"

synonyms:   appreciate, recognize, realize, acknowledge, know, be aware of, be conscious of; More

interpret or view (something) in a particular way.

"as the term is usually understood, legislation refers to regulations and directives"

2. infer something from information received (often used as a polite formula in conversation).

"I understand you're at art school"

These are indisputable clear constants that are not subject to change, how does this compare to understanding a pwBPDs view of the world?

[vortex of confusion]

These are indisputable clear constants that are not subject to change, how does this compare to understanding a pwBPDs view of the world?

To me, it seems like their view of the world is not constant and is subject to change. So, I may understand what was meant in a particular instant but that may not carry over to the next instant because their view of the world seems to be in flux based on how they are feeling or what is happening to them in that moment.

When I say that I understand, then it seems that my husband seems to think that my understanding goes beyond that one particular instant. He can change but I can't. I am suppose to understand him no matter what is going on. My lack of understanding is often seen as invalidation. I know that he and I have both said at different times, "I thought I knew what you were saying, but apparently not."

[waverider]

These are indisputable clear constants that are not subject to change, how does this compare to understanding a pwBPDs view of the world?

To me, it seems like their view of the world is not constant and is subject to change. So, I may understand what was meant in a particular instant but that may not carry over to the next instant because their view of the world seems to be in flux based on how they are feeling or what is happening to them in that moment.

When I say that I understand, then it seems that my husband seems to think that my understanding goes beyond that one particular instant. He can change but I can't. I am suppose to understand him no matter what is going on. My lack of understanding is often seen as invalidation. I know that he and I have both said at different times, "I thought I knew what you were saying, but apparently not."

So is telling him you you understand a good thing or a bad thing in the long run?

[vortex of confusion]

So is telling him you you understand a good thing or a bad thing in the long run?

In the long run, I think it creates more confusion.

In the short term, it can be very effective at staving off dysregulation. I know I have been guilty of saying, "I think I understand what you are saying" just to get him to shut up and quit obsessing. With my husband, it is inevitable that the same topics will come up over and over again. Just tonight, he was telling me that he felt a lot more connected to me and was going on about things. I told him that I was glad that he felt that way. He tried to press me and get me into a conversation about our relationship. I told him that I kind of liked not talking about it and would like to continue not talking about it for a while. I did not try to understand him. I merely listened and said that I was happy that he had positive feelings. His reality is so very different than mine. He thinks everything is great and wonderful but things couldn't be farther from the truth on my side of things.

[123Phoebe]

just to throw another term into the mix what do you guys thing about using the word "understand', as in "I understand what you are saying/

Good or bad... Pros and cons. hint; Think carefully about the consequence of whether you do or dont say this.

be sympathetically or knowledgeably aware of the character or nature of.

"Picasso understood color"

synonyms:   appreciate, recognize, realize, acknowledge, know, be aware of, be conscious of; More

interpret or view (something) in a particular way.

"as the term is usually understood, legislation refers to regulations and directives"

2. infer something from information received (often used as a polite formula in conversation).

"I understand you're at art school"

These are indisputable clear constants that are not subject to change, how does this compare to understanding a pwBPDs view of the world?

Something isn't sitting right with me on this.  I guess it's because the way I'm looking at it is lumping everyone with BPD into the same box; I have a really hard time with generalizing a 'person'.

I'd be taken aback if someone told me that they understood my view of the world, too.  There's no way somebody else has the inside skinny into my views.  They might have a perceived notion, but they don't know for sure every last detail; things sometimes develop before my eyes.  :)oes it feel good when they seek to understand?  Absolutely!  It is even better when we connect on that front, both ways!  When I seek to understand, or he's explaining something and I get it, I understand and tell him I do.  I may not agree, but I can understand where he's coming from.

I guess I'm missing something here because it isn't computing in the big picture.

Can you help me understand what it is I'm not understanding?

[123Phoebe]

So is telling him you you understand a good thing or a bad thing in the long run?

In the long run, I think it creates more confusion.

In the short term, it can be very effective at staving off dysregulation. I know I have been guilty of saying, "I think I understand what you are saying" just to get him to shut up and quit obsessing.

I don't get it.  I'm trying to understand how this is a good thing for either one of you.

[waverider]

The problem is what you mean by understand and what another persons means can be different.

2 scenarios can happen:

Firstly if someone is in chaos and they are trying to tell you that you dont understand, you then respond by saying you understand, that can be seen as a direct invalidating contradiction as you are telling them they are wrong (remember their message is they believe you dont), they can see it as dismissive and at times patronizing. They dont believe you when you say you do. You are not in their head so you dont really.  The truth is you can only state what you see and your interpretations. You may think you understand, but you may not, and they probably wont believe you. Their frustrations build> escalation> "No you dont, it's not happening to you, you dont understand, you never will" etc


Secondly if they are open to your "understanding", often because they are seeking validation, then saying you "understand" can be seen as a blanket approval. You understand BPD for example can later be pulled out and used as a rebuke if you later disagree with something... "but you said you understood BPD so its not my fault, you don't really understand you just say that when it suits you" etc>> It backfires and gets thrown back at you.

It is better say something along the lines of I can hear what you are saying and if I am right it is because you believe XYZ, am I right?" etc... This is validating whilst not apply blanket assumptions and at the same time limiting validation to the immediate issue you are discussing.

Of course everyone, and every RS, is different, mine took a huge leap forward when I limited the use of the word "understand'. It was even helpful to clearly explain my reasoning. The fact that you are acknowledging that you are not them, but are doing your best to be empathetic without presumption was received as very validating.

[vortex of confusion]

So is telling him you you understand a good thing or a bad thing in the long run?

In the long run, I think it creates more confusion.

In the short term, it can be very effective at staving off dysregulation. I know I have been guilty of saying, "I think I understand what you are saying" just to get him to shut up and quit obsessing.

I don't get it.  I'm trying to understand how this is a good thing for either one of you.

It isn't good for either one of us and that is the point that I was trying to make.

[123Phoebe]

So is telling him you you understand a good thing or a bad thing in the long run?

In the long run, I think it creates more confusion.

In the short term, it can be very effective at staving off dysregulation. I know I have been guilty of saying, "I think I understand what you are saying" just to get him to shut up and quit obsessing.

I don't get it.  I'm trying to understand how this is a good thing for either one of you.

It isn't good for either one of us and that is the point that I was trying to make.

How so?

[vortex of confusion]

How so?

I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing. I was referring to how saying "I understand" isn't helpful to me or my husband. It is better for both of us to try to approach things from a different angle all together.

The example that I gave of telling my husband "I understand" to get him to stop the circular talking is something that I have done in the past. It was me trying to be aware of my own failings and sharing them with others in case they have been doing the same things. When sitting there listening to my husband talk about the same things over and over, it is very tempting to say or do anything to get him to stop. He will sometimes bring up the same thing in the same conversation four or five times and each time he will put a slightly different spin on it. It feels like he won't stop until he gets a satisfactory answer/response from me. If I tell him what he wants to hear (like I understand), then it will likely come back and bite me in the butt later.

[123Phoebe]

The problem is what you mean by understand and what another persons means can be different.

2 scenarios can happen:

Firstly if someone is in chaos and they are trying to tell you that you dont understand, you then respond by saying you understand, that can be seen as a direct invalidating contradiction as you are telling them they are wrong (remember their message is they believe you dont), they can see it as dismissive and at times patronizing. They dont believe you when you say you do. You are not in their head so you dont really.  The truth is you can only state what you see and your interpretations. You may think you understand, but you may not, and they probably wont believe you. Their frustrations build> escalation> "No you dont, it's not happening to you, you dont understand, you never will" etc

Okay, this I totally get.  When in chaos, I have no idea how my partner actually feels.  I don't tell him "I understand" in a situation like this, because I don't.

Secondly if they are open to your "understanding", often because they are seeking validation, then saying you "understand" can be seen as a blanket approval. You understand BPD for example can later be pulled out and used as a rebuke if you later disagree with something... "but you said you understood BPD so its not my fault, you don't really understand you just say that when it suits you" etc>> It backfires and gets thrown back at you.

It is better say something along the lines of I can hear what you are saying and if I am right it is because you believe XYZ, am I right?" etc... This is validating whilst not apply blanket assumptions and at the same time limiting validation to the immediate issue you are discussing.

I've never told him I understand BPD   To say it in my own words, I might say, "Ooo, it sounds like I struck a nerve...  Are you irritated with me for telling you to turn left?"  

Of course everyone, and every RS, is different, mine took a huge leap forward when I limited the use of the word "understand'. It was even helpful to clearly explain my reasoning. The fact that you are acknowledging that you are not them, but are doing your best to be empathetic without presumption was received as very validating.

Yea, in my relationship, "I understand... , you'd rather I not be a backseat driver", works just fine.

I don't say it all the time, but sometimes, when it's funny and/or I am well aware of his feelings on a particular issue, he knows mine, we're being authentic and understand each other, it's okay.

Thank you for explaining this.  It's interesting!  

Which might be another way to approach something, an 'understanding/misunderstanding'... .

"Hmm, interesting... . Let me think about this"

Huh?

La la la... .

[123Phoebe]

How so?

I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing. I was referring to how saying "I understand" isn't helpful to me or my husband. It is better for both of us to try to approach things from a different angle all together.

The example that I gave of telling my husband "I understand" to get him to stop the circular talking is something that I have done in the past. It was me trying to be aware of my own failings and sharing them with others in case they have been doing the same things. When sitting there listening to my husband talk about the same things over and over, it is very tempting to say or do anything to get him to stop. He will sometimes bring up the same thing in the same conversation four or five times and each time he will put a slightly different spin on it. It feels like he won't stop until he gets a satisfactory answer/response from me. If I tell him what he wants to hear (like I understand), then it will likely come back and bite me in the butt later.

Okay.  I guess what was hard for me to grasp is that we don't have this particular issue, so I wasn't able to relate as well; saying you think you understand what he is saying is very effective at staving off dysregulation?  I can see how it could be a potential problem.  I'm pretty darn honest with my guy, so don't tell him things he wants to hear in order to get him to 'shut up'.  That has never been my style.  I'm more the, 'Shut the F UP!" type   Only have never used those words on him, have on someone else in his presence though.  With him, I walk away.  He knows.  He 'understands'.

[waverider]

Sound like you are avoiding the common traps of overusing "understanding" already



Many folks use it because they are just trying to appease and cant think of anything to say.

Even I get annoyed when I try to explain something and people say they understand, trying to shut me up/butt in, when they clearly dont understand

[123Phoebe]

Even I get annoyed when I try to explain something and people say they understand, trying to shut me up/butt in, when they clearly dont understand

I understand waverider, I really do; trust me

[vortex of confusion]

Even I get annoyed when I try to explain something and people say they understand, trying to shut me up/butt in, when they clearly dont understand

Even though I have done it to my husband, it annoys me too. <yes, very guilty> 

With my husband, I have done it because there are times when talking to him is like being grilled by a police officer trying to get you to confess. It is an interrogation rather than a conversation. I know exactly why people will confess to just about anything after a while. There comes a point when I just want it to stop. I used to try to engage and argue/discuss but that didn't work. Then I tried offering whatever I could to get him to stop. Now, I tend to go quiet.

[ColdEthyl]

Great example! That helps me soo much, too. Validate the FEELING. I spent a lot of time JADEing in the beginning, always thinking if I could just get him to understand what I meant... .but nonono that's not the right move at all. Things have been going so much better since I've practiced getting away from JADEing.

Of course we have different world views--our partner with BPD comes from a very different place!

That's why the validation is not about what they're saying but what they're feeling--or to use Vortex's example: "If you thought I was being controlling then I can see why you are upset." THAT's the feeling to be validated.

[ColdEthyl]

Even I get annoyed when I try to explain something and people say they understand, trying to shut me up/butt in, when they clearly dont understand

Even though I have done it to my husband, it annoys me too. <yes, very guilty> 

With my husband, I have done it because there are times when talking to him is like being grilled by a police officer trying to get you to confess. It is an interrogation rather than a conversation. I know exactly why people will confess to just about anything after a while. There comes a point when I just want it to stop. I used to try to engage and argue/discuss but that didn't work. Then I tried offering whatever I could to get him to stop. Now, I tend to go quiet.

Ain't that the truth my husband does the same thing. As in previous posts, he also ASSUMES what I'm thinking, rather than asking me. He's pretty paranoid too... .thinks everyone is out to get him. He will notice a simple thing and turn it into some sort of conspiracy.

I have to remind myself of how this must feel for him, to be this scared all the time. That helps me get my own annoyance under control.

[formflier]

  He's pretty paranoid too... .thinks everyone is out to get him. He will notice a simple thing and turn it into some sort of conspiracy.

I have to remind myself of how this must feel for him, to be this scared all the time. That helps me get my own annoyance under control.

Paranoia was a big part of my r/s for many years.  Very tough to get weeded out. 

I ended up at a similar place where I would imagine what it must be like for them to imagine these things... .or think these thinks.  Helped me have empathy for my wife...