emotionally abusive to kids - supervised visitation for that? or no?

[david]

What if he were not the biological father ? If someone else came up to you to pick up the kids, say a babysitter, and they raged like that, would you give the kids to them. Having a recording will show what you are talking about and concerned about. The police will not enforce the custody exchange if you let them hear the recording and state that you are concerned about the childrens safety. It may not be the end goal but it is setting a boundary that is good for the kids.

It will be up to the ex to file a contempt charge against you. Going to court with the recording will be a win/win. You will not be found in contempt and ex will be put on notice. You can also request at that time to reinstate supervised visitation. If the judge says no you still have it on record. Wind up in court again and the judge will have to change his/her mind.  It may or may not play out that way but it is a long range plan and it keeps the kids somewhat safer. I don't think the courts will do more than that unless you have an expert testify. Courts do not make quick decisions.

[KateCat]

Sounds as though you are at a watershed moment, momtara. Understandably struggling to define for the family law professionals and for yourself "what's wrong" with your husband, you now have a concrete example:

He came to pick up our toddlers who are under 5.  He spent the whole time yelling and abusing me about not packing the right stuff for our kids etc. . . .  Then he snapped at one of the kids, ":)on't talk, daddy's off his medicine."  Then he ordered me to do something else, I finally said, "I'm not a sheep," and our older child (shockingly) said, "Mommy's not a sheep!"  So he snapped, You better watch your mouth!  . . . . They both ended up in tears because he was yelling. They didn't want to go with him to his relatives' house for the night.

And you have it on tape.

And you have the tremendous guidance on this thread. Powerful practical stuff.

Wow. 

[momtara]

Wow, I appreciate that.  OK, so I need honest opinions now:

One thing I could do is withhold them from the next visit based on last time.  OR only do it only if he acts that way again.  What do you guys think?

I think it's a little more complicated if I withhold them from his next visit based on last time.  There won't be anything for the court to enforce, so he could still go and pick them up from day care or school any day without telling me, if I suddenly withhold them from the next visitation.  Even if it's not his day to have them, we have joint custody and he's legally allowed to do that, my lawyer said.  And day care and school would let him.  He hasn't done it yet, but he could, if I prevent his regular visitation.

My problem during the divorce, and during this latest round, is that I dealt with the courts too soon, before I really had more evidence.  This latest incident - the worst one yet - of course happened four days after I signed a consent agreement letting him off supervised visitation.  If it had happened before or during, I could have made  a better case and had more clarity.  That's the thing - acting too soon vs. not acting at all vs. not being afraid... .it's so hard to know when exactly to act.  I'm kind of waiting for him to make a physical threat.  Saying "Better behave, daddy's off his medicine" is not a direct threat, but not very nice either.

If I withhold them, then I'd have to go to court to get an emergency order again, and to do that in my state, you have to say the kids are in danger, not they *might* be. 

It may be better to wait until another incident of verbal abuse, but I dont' want to sound like I'm rationalizing... .I have to weigh all the implications.  I know Livedandlearned said we try to overthink what our BPD exes might do, and that is certainly a point.

Well, I am seeing a therapist tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes.

[enlighten me]

My honest opinion is to wait until the next exchange. If he acts the same way again then you are within your rights to refuse him having the children as you are not happy with his frame of mind. If he refuses to leave then you can call the police. This you can then use as additional evidence of his inappropriate behaviour. This will build a stronger case for you.

If he turns up and is polite to you and doesn't cause a scene then you should be happy. As long as the children do not get stressed out by staying with him then you will have reached your ultimate objective which is for the children to have two parents that love them and no arguments between you.

By going off too soon you have not given him a chance to change or prove you right.

[david]

If you withhold the children because of the last time the judge will want to know why are you doing it now since nothing bad happened. I don't think that will fly in court.

If he does it again and you say no than you can say he did this before and the children were upset. I was too upset to think clearly, or something like that, but after having time to think about it I do not believe this behavior is good for the children. The children need to see and understand this kind of behavior is not acceptable. Remember you have to focus it on what is best for the kids.

This behavior has to change for the children or something needs to be done. Perhaps supervised visitation until ex can prove he can behave better in front of the children. Supervised visitation takes you out of the loop in determining whether his behavior is acceptable or not. You then need to figure out who is best to supervise. Some kind of court recognized professional that knows what the courts and your concerns are.

The court is a game with rules. In order to achieve the goal you want you have to play by the rules. The big problem is to play this game out costs lots of time and $. You have to figure out how to use the courts wisely to minimize costs.

Having documentation (recordings) (you may even want to write it down too just to cover objections about recordings/ if they hear one and you have it in writing they will probably assume the rest are true too) of more than one instance will go a long way. Remember too, that if you refuse to let him have the kids the next time he rages he has to take you to court and file contempt charges. If he doesn't file he will not change anything and you can continue doing what you have established as what you think best for the children. If you then gather multiple similar situations with recordings the courts will have to take a closer look if he then files. You will then be able to show consistent behavior of both parties. You will be holding a much stronger hand and you will be showing that you are not preventing ex from seeing the children as long as his behavior is in the childrens best interest.

[momtara]

I saw a therapist I see sometimes. He at times works with the courts. He said to definitely keep documenting.  He said not to withhold the kids (unless they're in real danger) but send him a sternly worded letter about both verbally abusive incidents.  He said while my exH is sick, he's obviously not so sick that he can't control the behavior (it doesn't happen at work etc).  He said if I send the letter, he will very likely stop acting like that.

I agree.  However, I almost want to know when he's off his meds.  If he keeps it all inside, then I don't know what's in his head and when he's off his rocker.  So if I tell him not to say anything to me at pickups, I may worry even more, in a way. 

So I am documenting the incidents this time for myself, and I did let my lawyer know.  If he does it again, I'll try to figure out the next step:  Court, whatever.

My T said I am playing into his game by being intimidated and doing my own kind of backing down and manipulating. 

[david]

So the T said not to withhold the kids. So here is my two cents.

Ex comes to your house and rages. You go back in the house and the kids were there the entire time or you get the kids back in the house. Lock the door and call the police. When they show up you play the recording and say you fear for your childrens safety. Make sure you tell them you want a police report and make sure you get the officers names. Better yet you say you want their supervisor there. In my county that is the proper procedure. Not sure if it is the same in your county. If it is then the supervisor must show up. Play the recording again. As long as you are calm in the recording and looking out for the childrens safety I would suspect the police will tell ex this is a civil matter and he needs to take it up with the courts. Make sure the supervisor knows you want a report stating that you feared for the childrens safety. Also let them know this happened before and this is not good for the children. I do not believe they will do anything and it will be up to ex to go to court. If ex does not calm down and gets worse then the police will  take him away. Make sure you get the police report.

This really depends on how the ex is behaving and what is on the recording.

[Grey Kitty]

I think that withholding the kids next time based on your ex's behavior the previous time is a bad idea. (Looks like punishing him instead of protecting the kids)

If he does it again (verbal abuse of you and/or the kids), withholding them for their safety seems good and reasonable. And as others have pointed out, he will have to get the courts to address your behavior, which will clearly demonstrate his bad behavior to the court.

Dunno how important it is to put him on notice about this sort of behavior via a nastygram from your lawyer. If he never does it again, the only difference may be you paying your lawyer for the letter. If he does it again, you will be doing much more than that.

[summeralyssa]

I can't speak for any particular area and I'm not providing legal "advice" as I am a lawyer.  However, supervised access is not meant to be long-term.  It is meant to be short term and to either ease into a "no access" regime or, alternatively, some form of supervised access in the community on the path to ramping things up eventually to unsupervised.  The best interests of the children are what matters. 

If I were to read this and my client asked for supervised, I would have to indicate the changes that have taken place and whether this constitutes an "emergency" situation.  there are simply so many factors.  I am concerned that you settled too quickly.  I would be suggesting to my client that we bring  a contempt motion for the dad failing to abide by the existing order as well as a motion for supervised access to be reinstated forhtwith.  I am uncertain as to whether you have had a "children's lawyer" or children's aid society involvement as of yet.  That may be wise at this time. 

I am so very sorry to hear of his downward spiral, again.  Your kids and you deserve the very best.  my hands hurt from a long day... .so I can't write a ton.  hang in there!

[momtara]

thanks, summer.  are you in the u.s.?  those are good thoughts.

a contempt motion is not a bad idea... .maybe i have to do it myself.

i will see if he acts like this again.  i'll go with my gut and withhold the kids if i think they are in danger.  

it is hard to look at their sweet faces and imagine that anyone could even emotionally hurt them.  it just galls me.

[momtara]

I just read this all again.  The predominant opinion seems to be to see if he does it again, and withhold then if he does (perhaps call the police so it's really their decision).

Another option is to have my lawyer draw up a contempt order/order to reinstate supervised, and tell his lawyer that he can avoid us filing it if he gets a letter from his pscyiatrist saying he's on his meds and seeing him regularly.  This is a concern of mine - that my exH was lying about seeing his docs regularly.  Like a wimp I took his word for it, even though he lies about everything else.  We did put into the order that he has to get annual letters saying he's being treated.  The idea was more psychological, for him to know he has to stay with his docs.  So we'd only get proof of treatment a year from now.  I'd be happy if his docs are brought into the loop, but because of HIPPA laws, I havce no way of forcing them to tell us if he's not following their recommendations.

[ForeverDad]

Yes, HIPAA specifies confidentiality even from a spouse unless the individual waives it or by court order, something hard to get.

I recall one member here, I think he was once a board advisor here, mentioned how his spouse's doc called him and warned him to watch out.  Evidently she had voiced some sort of ideation about harming him and the doctor decided he needed to be warned but gave no details.  In your case, I don't know if you'd ever get a call from his doctors, it appears they don't get into much detail at all with him and so they really wouldn't know what he's thinking, if he would even tell them.

[livednlearned]

Yes, HIPAA specifies confidentiality even from a spouse unless the individual waives it or by court order, something hard to get.

I recall one member here, I think he was once a board advisor here, mentioned how his spouse's doc called him and warned him to watch out.  Evidently she had voiced some sort of ideation about harming him and the doctor decided he needed to be warned but gave no details.  In your case, I don't know if you'd ever get a call from his doctors, it appears they don't get into much detail at all with him and so they really wouldn't know what he's thinking, if he would even tell them.

I think health care providers (at least mental health) must contact someone when their client makes a threat.

momtara, the key thing to keep in mind is that anything the court rules, you are the one who will be enforcing it. This is a civil order. Your ex isn't breaking the law. You become the person who will enforce anything that gets ordered. That means pay really close attention to what you are trying to enforce, and how you'll do it.

For example, you just learned that your ex will lie about taking his medication. The doctors will corroborate, whether it's because they just ask him and believe him, or whatever.

Already, you can see that this is going to be hard to enforce. The court can't enforce it either. They think it's your job to do that.

If you are willing to use your recording in a motion for contempt, to show evidence that your ex is lying about compliance, then your motion for contempt should say that your ex requires supervised visitation unless he gives you access to his medical treatment, if that's even possible under HIPAA laws. Which, I'm guessing, no family court is going to want to do. Unless your ex agrees to it.

Does that make sense? It's really important that this makes sense. Family court really lets us down here, and it can take a long time and a lot of money to figure this out.

The strategy I see is this: You go forward with your recording and tell your ex and his L that you have it on tape that he lied, and is not taking his medication. See if you can get them to agree to supervised, to avoid going to court. Tell them that your ex can get unsupervised back but only under the condition that he gives you permission to access his medical records (if that's even possible -- and family court lawyers aren't going to be expert in HIPAA laws, so you might want to consult with a someone with that expertise). If you discover he is not complying with treatment, you can prevent access to the kids.

I'm not saying this is possible, just that this is the kind of thing you need to avoid running to court when your ex lies, doesn't comply, etc. Because court can't enforce this. The only thing they can do is take your evidence and his signed agreement in earlier court documents, and back you up. Even then, only if they believe that you are credible and there is a real risk.

If you do ask for supervised, create a lot of obstacles for your ex to gain back unsupervised. But you'll need to come up with the terms because family court is not designed to prescribe what will or won't make a parent function properly. And frankly, as much as I love the idea that judges would see how BPD devastates our kids and act accordingly, I wouldn't want to live under a judicial system that reaches that deep into my personal life. Given how inept the system is, I wouldn't want a judge telling me to report every therapy visit to my ex (which he tried to get, btw). Imagine the judge, in all his or her bias and clouded judgment, deciding that you can't see your kids unless you take anti-anxiety medication. The way I feel about court at this point, I can think of nothing more offensive than having some judge tell me what I can and can't do.

But the judge can create consequences for non-compliance. The trick is figuring out how to show non-compliance without having to run to court when that very same court isn't going to enforce compliance.

I can't speak for any particular area and I'm not providing legal "advice" as I am a lawyer.  However, supervised access is not meant to be long-term.  It is meant to be short term and to either ease into a "no access" regime or, alternatively, some form of supervised access in the community on the path to ramping things up eventually to unsupervised.  The best interests of the children are what matters. 

That's true about everything in family court. Nothing is permanent. Fortunately, and unfortunately.

What I have had to do, at great expense and considerable exhaustion, is to chip away at small incremental protections, and use N/BPDx's inability to comply (with anything, or anyone) to my advantage. So S13 has half a chance to make it to adulthood without long-lasting psychological and emotional damage.

[momtara]

LandL, your advice is very valuable.  You do such great work here and think so much about everything.

It's 4 a.m. and I'm thinking about all this again.  ExH has visitation again next weekend.  So if I am going to do anything, I have to decide over this weekend.

Some things I know:

-Ex is mentally ill and sometimes imagines things. He also gets angry and likes to scare me by using the kids.

-As a result, I always worry he *could* do something.  Every professional in mental health I've consulted says it's reasonable to have concerns... .yet, they don't think he would do something extreme to the kids, based on what I've told them.  Bill Eddy's comment:  "If he was going to, he would have already done it."  Even our PC, who thought he was a mess, still believes he has his limits.  That said, it's really unpredictable what a person can do, of course, and what the triggers might be, especially since I'm not his only trigger.  I know courts don't like to look at what "might" happen.  But I do.  My kids are young and sweet.  I wish I didn't have to subject them to someone so mentally ill.  The PC *did* say that he's "unpredictable" if off his medication.

-A lot of my thinking goes to the long term.  I can honestly say, short term, that I don't think he is going to hurt them (more than he has, anyway).  The chances of him repeating last week's behavior at pickup this week are very unlikely.  Usually his mood passes in several days, when he's in those harsh, angry moods.  Once his anger passes, he settles into an angry sort of silence.  It's always right at the point I'm about to do something, too.  It's like he senses it.

If I were to file for contempt or something else this week, it will be mainly because I know that down the road, maybe in 6 months, maybe in 9, he'll do something else that scares me and I'll think, "I should have filed a motion while I had the chance."

-My objective is confusing, though.  As LandL said, I can't demand he stay on medication.  And in fact, in thinking about it, maybe there is a reason for him not to be on those drugs.  He used to tell me he didn't take them at night anyway because he couldn't take care of the kids if he was drowsy.  It's really between him and his doctors unless he gets a whole lot worse.  He was still imagining stuff even on the drugs.

-I think talk therapy is more important for him than medication.  What would really scare me is if he stops seeing his docs or doesn't see them at least the 2x/month he was before.  Our PC recommended he see them weekly.  He said he can't afford it.  

What I regret is that I let him off unsupervised without getting a note from his psychiastrist saying he was stabilized and able to watch the kids alone.  His shrink who sees him more often did write one saying that.  But that guy is just a nice folky guy and wanted to help ex not lose his kids.  The other guy is more familiar with his medication and reason to be on it.  If I had to do it again, I'd have said we either need a letter from his psychiatrist, or he has to get a psych eval.  (As an aside, our PC thought a psych eval is not worthwhile because he'd game the system.)

The reason ExH was so angry was that I nixed our last deal at the last minute and added in the language about his docs having to send my lawyer a letter once a year for eternity.  So I *did* do something and didn't back down, but it took me having to really reorient my thinking and not give in so much.

Sorry for the verbiage, I am trying to think all of this through.  I jumped the gun with my last motion and ended up settling because I knew I didn't have any evidence of exH doing something bad, so I wouldn't have had any justification to continue supervised visits except for the PC saying he should have them.  That may have been enough for the short term but not long term.  I can't make him stay on medication.  I should make him stay in talk therapy.  Annual reports probably are not enough.

What do I really want?  I want him to see his doctors regularly.  I know for a fact that it helps him.  He was doing so before, but he may say that after court costs, he can't afford it anymore, and just stop, or slow down.  I wouldn't find out for a year.

By the end of this weekend I may have a better handle on what to do.  These issues are so complicated.  I do like the idea of my L saying something to his L to avoid court.

One problem is the recording.  It's a good, clear recording, but I still am not sure I want to show my hand and let him know I was taping.  Without doing that, though, I don't have any proof that he said what he said.  

[momtara]

Everyone will think I'm weird for this, but I don't have a car and am thinking of buying one so I can transport the kids at least one way.  I always feel like that's what scares me the most, not knowing if they really make it to their destination each week.

The truth is, deep inside, I know something is wrong with him.  I know he could snap.  Our children are young.  All of that scares me.  But I do have to consider all the implications of a strategy I'd want to entail.  If we write a letter to his lawyers, I have to be prepared to actually do something if they ignore us.

Another piece of info:  I asked our PC what she would recommend if she was in the role of custody evaluator instead.  She said she'd recommend only day visits, once a week, until the kids are 5.  I find this no better than an overnight every other week, and potentially worse because he's invading their lives more often and not really having much downtime.

OK, back to bed. 

[david]

"It's always right at the point I'm about to do something" so he knows your boundary and he goes right to that boundary and stops. I am not sure how to do this but if you can think of a way to gradually move that boundary to a better place that may help.

If he picks the kids up at your place, depending on the layout, you can put up a video camera at the front entrance that is clearly visible. He sees it and decides to not act out. If he then acts out in other areas, and you are recording them too,  you have proof that he has control of his own behavior.

I had concerns that ex wasn't helping our kids with their school work. That started over two years ago. First I tried "co parenting" and sent emails trying to resolve the situation. That didn't work. I documented the entire time. During this time I assumed more (all) of the responsibility with helping them. That wasn't fair for the kids since I only seen them twice a week during the school year.

Last July I filed for a modification of custody. I was still documenting. I have copies of every homework, for the last two years, for our now S11. I wanted the hearing before the school year started last year because I thought she would change her behavior about their school work until the hearing was over. Ex, however, never changed her behavior. That had a lightbulb go off in my head. She can't change for whatever reason. Ex delayed the court date multiple times. We have a hearing on Monday. She tried several times to delay this date but the judge said no every time.

Had she simply changed her behavior I would not have a chance in court. My atty has overwhelming evidence including a custody eval report agreeing with all my concerns and basically recommending the change I am seeking.

The last three weeeks ex's emails have become nice for the first time in 7 years. To little to late.

My boundary was that I thought helping the boys with their schoolwork is vitally important.  All my actions from that point on follow that basic belief. I no longer try to figure out if ex agrees with that concept / if she is unable to do anything about it / whatever.

[momtara]

Well said, and I have been following your story and I am glad the judge isn't letting this get postponed anymore.  I'm also glad your wife told the CE she doesn't want to do 4th gr homework again (if that was your story - I remember that one.)

My T said something similar to what you said about how he stops right when I'm about to do something.  He said I have to set a boundary and the behavior will stop.

My response was that I wanted to have an idea of when he is angry and acting out.  If he is being delusional and angry, but he keeps his mouth shut when he picks up the kids, he's still delusional and angry and then he has them all weekend.  I'd rather know if he's in a bad state of mind.

My T said that by thinking like that, I am playing into his emotional game and being manipulative myself.

Still, in my heart, I feel that my opinion on that one is correct.  I'd rather know when he's in a poor state of mind.  What happened last time was the worst I'd ever seen him.  If it happens again, then I will do something.    The decision may involve legal action.  It may involve a letter.  I have a feeling it won't happen next time.  It may happen 6 months from now due to some unknown trigger.

Unfortunately, once he calms down, he'll want to hang out in the house when he picks the kids up, and at this point I have no desire to make nicey nice and have small talk, as it gives him the wrong impression.  The fact that I am going to be consistent and firm means he may have another extinction burst.  I am not going to be mean, just normal.

True, I can't make him change (although as recently as 6 months ago he was telling me how much the medication was helping him).  I can't get him under permanent supervised visitation (unless he gets worse).  I can't make him take his medicine.  What I do want is for him to get regular talk therapy and right now he can lie about it (until the shrinks have to submit letters next summer).  I also would like his therapists to know what has been going on, but not sure whether I should just send them a letter.  It's out of bounds and nosy but it's tempting.

[david]

Just thought I would add that yes I do get upset/worried/etc about our two boys. What kind of helped was they are older and I feel they are more able to take care of themselves. We have had numerous discussions about what you do if you are in an unsafe condition, etc. Nothing specific but I keep talking to them. I also have taught them how to do things for themselves sooner then I would have. I taught then how to cook sooner/etc. They do that at their mom's and she doesn't complain. She has no idea I taught them. If she did then that would be a problem.

[momtara]

Yeah, I think I wouldn't worry as much if the kids were older.  Smart move about teaching them.

I am going to see how exH behaves at the next pickup.  Deep down, I feel the kids are safe now.  I don't feel they may always be, and this is what bothers me - I can only act right when he does something, otherwise I look like I wasn't worried.  So if I don't do something now, then I have to wait until he gets bad again.  I may be willing to do that and just keep my eyes open.

I am tempted to email my L and see what she thinks (she didn't respond last time) but  she doesn't necessarily have all the answers... .she is looking to me to decide.  I feel like putting him back under supervised is extreme if I really dont' think he'll do something again in the near future.  So I probably will keep monitoring.  I just don't know if I'm giving up an opportunity to do more, and I am thinking about that this weekend.

What I should have done last time is asked for letters every 3 months from his shrinks, not once a year.  And for them to inform if he stops treatment.

[livednlearned]

Is it possible that he is not taking his medication because you are trying to make him?

BPD sufferers are not very emotionally mature. I remember when I confronted N/BPDx and gave him (a rather weak) ultimatum about his drinking. Initially he drank more. Then he got sneaky, making it look like he wasn't drinking, meanwhile doing all kinds of wacky secretive things to hide it. Then he would get belligerent and indignant, and almost like clockwork, would binge Friday through Sunday because "it was his house, his body, he could do whatever he wanted."

By confronting him, in many ways, things just got worse. It was good that I finally set a boundary, but I just gave him a whole new way to engage me in spiteful ways. "She doesn't like when I drink? I'll show her how I can really drink. Then I'll stop and mess with her mind. I'll make it look like I'm not drinking, and have a whole bunch of things to hide when I am."

It turned into a circus. He started this ridiculous year of hiding alcohol, and I became equally ridiculous, hunting through the back of the toilet looking for empty bottles of vodka. One day I found all these empty bottles stuffed inside the charcoal container next to the grill, and I remember feeling "HA! I knew it!" and realized I had become so enmeshed in this circus routine, acting like I was on a perpetual scavenger hunt. Meanwhile, N/BPDx was an abusive @sshol3. Why did it matter if I found evidence of his drinking?

You can't control him. You can't get him to comply. All the things you know will make him be safer, you have zero power over. He's clever, he's a grown man, and he's mentally ill. He is going to outsmart you and keep you focused on him (which is what he wants), and you are going to be perpetually one step behind. Even if you had unlimited funds and tried to wear him out in court, that probably would just satisfy the cat-and-mouse game where he gets to keep you negatively engaged. I think that's happening in my situation, and it's no way to live.

What would happen if you backed all the way off, gave him a completely neutral, opaque front -- no emotions, no negative engagement, no trying to control him?

[david]

Negative engagement is still engagement.

[Grey Kitty]

momtara, I think there is a harsh truth you need to look at:

As I read it, you want to have your exH being properly treated/medicated.  (This is a valid desire!)

If you can't get that, you want to know if your exH is going off meds/not cooperating with his T. (Also a valid desire!)

You are looking for ways to get these things through the court system, and I don't think it will help you--If you do get the court ordering this, you will still have to go back to court for enforcement... .and ultimately, any compliance on his part will be voluntary.

Here's reality as I see it: The courts can protect your kids from your exH by taking away his custody rights, decision making rights, or even visitation rights. Do this if you need to, and use appropriate strategy.

The courts cannot make him take good care of himself. If you try to use the courts that way, much time, energy, and money will go away, with very little chance of getting what you want out of it.

Does anyone who's been through the court system see it differently?

[momtara]

Is it possible that he is not taking his medication because you are trying to make him?

... .What would happen if you backed all the way off, gave him a completely neutral, opaque front -- no emotions, no negative engagement, no trying to control him?

Well, we're about to find out... . 

Grey Kitty, all good points.  Except, my ex actually has been good about following our original agreement.  Like most BPD's, it's a clear boundary and boundaries are things he understands.  If the new order said he had to see his T 2x a month he might do it.  As it stands, it says he has to follow his docs' recommendations.  That's kind of vague but I imagine (and hope) they would tell him he can't see them only once a month, especially since they went out on a limb and wrote letters on his behalf.

For the last week, I have not answered his calls (except if the kids were with him), only responded briefly by email to questions.  (Obviously if it were urgent I'd respond quickly.)  In time, he's going to be unhappy with this.  I will be cordial enough, but no unnecessary engagement.

[livednlearned]

Here's reality as I see it: The courts can protect your kids from your exH by taking away his custody rights, decision making rights, or even visitation rights. Do this if you need to, and use appropriate strategy.

The courts cannot make him take good care of himself. If you try to use the courts that way, much time, energy, and money will go away, with very little chance of getting what you want out of it.

Does anyone who's been through the court system see it differently?

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Court is not very good at being codependent. 

[momtara]

Well, it's the end of the weekend.  Midway through, I decided I'm not going back to court right now.  If my fear is that he's going to keep acting this when off his medication, then it will happen again and then I'll act.  And if it doesn't happen again, I'll keep watching.  Unfortunately, his episodes are closely tied to various triggers, so we can settle into months of him being calm and then something else happening, and I kind of have to act when I have a chance, because if I let it go, I lose credibility.  So I'm watching carefully.  He may have more extinction bursts just because I'm not going to be warmfuzzy or engage him like I used to.

I can't force him to take medicine or be a nice guy.  I can make sure he's seeing his shrinks as often as he says he is - by asking for monthly reports.  I don't have those right now.  So if this happens again, I will have to ask an attorney (mine, or if she ignores me, someone else) to send a stern letter to his atty right away saying either do this, or we go to court for contempt and to reinstate supervised visitation and ask for a psych eval.  If he continues to be hostile I can make the case that it's clear he's off his meds like he said.

Only issue is that if I have to go to court while he's not supervised, he may get even angrier around the kids.  So I'd have to figure that out.  I did have a golden opportunity while he was under supervised to ask for stuff, and I was intimidated by court and the fact that our parent coordinator got scared off by my ex (he filed a complaint against her and she tersely sent us an email saying she no longer represents us).  Shoulda, coulda, woulda... .

Some of you have angry, hostile exes, but they don't take revenge using the kids.  Mine does.  Emotionally, but it's still scary.  It's like he freezes up and everything that comes out of him is mean and angry.  Any response make it worse.

What I did get in our new court order is that in a few months we see a new PC (with limited powers) and he has to give yearly reports from his shrinks saying he's seeing them.  A year isn't much, but at least it makes it clear he has to keep getting therapy for the rest of his life.

What I still am wrestling with is whether my L should send a letter to his shrinks with the court order and saying some behavior has us concerned.  At least that way they know the truth.  Unfortunately, he will give an alternate explanation and they won't know he's imagining things, because he's been covering up all his life (and people with PD's are so good at their alternative explanations:  "I never said that!" "No, what I said was... ."  "How dare you accuse me."

I also hope I can make more money.  I've about maxed out all my credit cards on legal stuff.  That was another fear of mine during this process that I should have ignored, as it ends up costing more later if I don't spend now.  

If he does something else I will ask for a psych eval too.  That might be good leverage for what I want.

OK, just thinking out loud.  At least it's not at 4 a.m. this time.

[david]

He has to give yearly reports... .so if he stops going in the second month is the psychiatrist required to contact someone to let them know he stopped ?

My ex tried to get me upset. I learned to detach. My fear was she would use the kids to get to me. I went back and forth. Eventually, my T pointed this out, I had to change or we would be going around the same crazy circle over and over and over again. I finally decided to stick to it and not react. I believe it was an extinction burst (her trying to get back to the same crazy circle

to stay engaged) and she did try to use the kids. It lasted for a few months and stopped. She did push the kids further away by her actions. I don't particularly like that but it is what it is.

My ex has said she would like to physically hurt me but I am twice her size so she does not intimidate me that way. I also keep my distance now. She never tried to physically hurt the kids and that is a good thing. Our boys are now 16 and 11. S16 is 6' 2" so she would not try anything physical. When they were younger that did cross my mind but it never happened. I always used to tell them that if they felt scared or threatened at some place they should try to get out and call me. These conversations were usually around the time the school was having something about not getting in a car of a stranger. I would just pick up with the conversation and give other examples to show it wasn't just for the specific incident. I never mentioned their mom.

[momtara]

"so if he stops going in the second month is the psychiatrist required to contact someone to let them know he stopped ?"

Nope.  That is a problem.  One would think that he'd hopefully think in the long term about it - we'd still find out eventually. 

I am seeing extinction bursts already.  My kids, unfortunately, are both under 5, so I have to be a little more careful.  They can't really tell me if something is wrong, and can't defend themselves. 

I have accepted that he is probably not going to do something extreme - but I still worry constantly that he *could*.  At least he takes them to his parents' house.

I may have to have my L send his therapists the agreement we signed so they know he is supposed to follow their advice.

[livednlearned]

I may have to have my L send his therapists the agreement we signed so they know he is supposed to follow their advice.

I would do that too.

The thing is that psychiatrists aren't dumb -- they know it's possible their client isn't taking his medication, even when your ex says he is. My guess is that they are trying to stay out of the middle of this. They want to practice medicine, not law, and probably don't want to be subpoenaed or have to testify. If it comes to that, they know they can sit on the witness stand and say that they have no way to know if their client is taking his meds, unless he tells them otherwise. If he says he is taking his medication, that's what they put in their report.

But still, I would let them know. Hopefully they don't see him as a potential legal headache and deny services, or try to get him to go somewhere else.

LnL

[momtara]

Well, the he'd either have to do the right thing and follow their recommendations, or realize he can't send us a letter next summer - and hopefully he'd get in line and do the right thing.

[momtara]

OK, so today he sent me an email saying his parents aren't able to supervise this weekend.  However, he's already off supervision.  Doesn't he realize this? Maybe he can't emotionally handle the kids this weekend, so that's a signal.  Sounds ok to me in the short term.  However... .obviously he's having weird delusions.  I may just end up having to go back to court to ask for someone to monitor the situation.  I don't know what else to do.  What do you do if you are co-parenting with a mentally ill spouse but he hasn't technically made a threat or done anything?